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formulaic
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Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process?
#18866107 - 09/20/13 02:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Now that I have that slightly risque title out of the way, let me explain myself.
First off, why are human inventions considered technology and animal ones natural? All our technological prowess (or lack thereof) is the result of thousands of years of NATURAL evolution resulting in a lot of ethically questionable but natural processes. The only thing that sets us apart is our arrogance. If a bird builds a nest it's considered a natural process, but a man made building is cultural- when in reality culture and nature are essentially the same thing.
Now this has a lot of interesting results on the way we look at climate change. Let's look at dinosaurs. The majority of greenhouse gas emissions on earth are emitted from natural sources. It stands to reason that if we're impacting the climate so much it must be an.extremely delicate balance, which means that the massive dinosaurs (who were dominating by population) caused a similar and vastly more dramatic climate chang we could ever survive. The planet seems to have a homeostatic nature in which it kills off oversuccessful parasites.
So again I ask- Is climate change a natural process to prevent us creating more harm?
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"I live on Earth at present, and I don't know what I am. I know that I am not a category. I am not a thing — a noun. I seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process — an integral function of the universe." - Buckminster Fuller
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Jozsus
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: formulaic]
#18866109 - 09/20/13 02:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well if its man made; is it only natural because man was part of the natural cycle - or do you mean - if man did not exist would climate change still be part of the planetary process?
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formulaic
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Jozsus]
#18866114 - 09/20/13 02:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is assuming that climate change is happening as a direct result of our actions. Sorry, just reread this and it's shocking. I'm on my phone and can't read what I typed three lines later. Ill do a rewrite soon.
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"I live on Earth at present, and I don't know what I am. I know that I am not a category. I am not a thing — a noun. I seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process — an integral function of the universe." - Buckminster Fuller
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Fun-Gee
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: formulaic]
#18866135 - 09/20/13 03:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, nature doesnt work that way. It doesnt produce climate change to prevent humans from doing harm. natural occurances are ruled by blind physical forces.
See, natural stuff occurs because of natural laws and evolution when it comes to living cells. Unnatural stuff occurs because of intelligence. Im not sure if you actually have a example of non-human technology that are concideret to be natural? I sure dont.
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NetDiver
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Fun-Gee]
#18866140 - 09/20/13 03:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, human intelligence is a product of evolution. Our particular kind of intelligence (there's really no "objective" intelligence, just different kinds of behavior which suit the purposes of different animals) leads us to develop technology that makes our lives easier. That's every bit as instinctual as a beaver building a damn or a bird building a nest.
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Memories



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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: NetDiver]
#18866743 - 09/20/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Well, human intelligence is a product of evolution. Our particular kind of intelligence (there's really no "objective" intelligence, just different kinds of behavior which suit the purposes of different animals) leads us to develop technology that makes our lives easier. That's every bit as instinctual as a beaver building a damn or a bird building a nest.
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Mushouse
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: formulaic]
#18866914 - 09/20/13 09:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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If I were to throw some old tires and a shopping cart down into the woods, there's no wrong as those things are natural anyway; they're part of the world.
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Fun-Gee
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Mushouse]
#18867037 - 09/20/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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yes intelligence arrives from evolution , thats true. And you can always argue that everything is a natural process.. termonology and definitions comes from intelligence as well. We can say definitions doesnt matter. thats fine. We made them and thats how we seperate natural from non-natural, but you can disagree on this of course.. But definitions are nice to have. In a broader definition of natural , where all we do is natural - syntethic is natural and so on - the only unnatural would be supernatural events, like acts of Gods or whatever 
We can also say that we do not care how we affect the planet because its all natural since we are nature. We can , but we shoudlnt. Because we perhaps does feel some obligations towards the planet and future generations. You can always say you dont care. But I do hope people do care. Because we do affect the climate on our planete, 97% of peer reviewed studies on this topic suggests just that. And we can do harm reduction here.
Edited by Fun-Gee (09/20/13 10:38 AM)
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Viveka
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Mushouse]
#18872496 - 09/21/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushouse said: If I were to throw some old tires and a shopping cart down into the woods, there's no wrong as those things are natural anyway; they're part of the world.
Agreed. There's nothing objectively wrong about it. And if I were to encounter those tires and shopping cart while walking in the woods I would think, "what strange processes this universe has to produce such a thing". It might even develop into something quite beautiful after a few decades with trees and shrubs growing up through the cart and the tire decomposing amidst the flora and fauna. Some other guy might wander through and think, "those assholes! Ruining the value of the property and offending my aesthetic sensibilities!".
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Fun-Gee]
#18872938 - 09/21/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
We can also say that we do not care how we affect the planet because its all natural since we are nature. We can , but we shoudlnt. Because we perhaps does feel some obligations towards the planet and future generations. You can always say you dont care. But I do hope people do care. Because we do affect the climate on our planete, 97% of peer reviewed studies on this topic suggests just that. And we can do harm reduction here.
A planet unable to support a human population, or just a planet with highly reduced biodiversity isn't in our best interest, if surviving and thriving is the goal. So yea, it doesn't matter if it's considered natural or not. Being bitten by a black widow is all natural.
As far as whether something should be considered natural is a matter of context. If by natural one simply means 'not tampered with my humans' I don't see a problem, except for the possibility of being confused by one of the other possible connotations. Simply stating there is a human factor involved could be less confusing. Man made climate change isn't natural, but that phrase doesn't have any philosophical connotations. It's just saying that man made climate change was made by man.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Icelander
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Mushouse]
#18875522 - 09/22/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushouse said: If I were to throw some old tires and a shopping cart down into the woods, there's no wrong as those things are natural anyway; they're part of the world.
Ultimately this is correct. Right and Wrong are subjective. Expediency is another thing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Icelander]
#18875767 - 09/22/13 12:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Climate change is inevitable whether man exists or not. All organisms alter their environment.
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18875834 - 09/22/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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We're discussing a hypothetical. It's not so much about whether climate change is anthropomorphic or not but whether it would be 'natural' in either case.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Icelander
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Rahz]
#18875852 - 09/22/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well I vote for natural as I cannot conceive of anything unnatural.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Rahz]
#18875937 - 09/22/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: We're discussing a hypothetical. It's not so much about whether climate change is anthropomorphic or not but whether it would be 'natural' in either case.
So this is a dictionary discussion group?
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18875979 - 09/22/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's a spinoff from another more heated thread, but yes we're trying to resolve the nuanced usage of the word natural. It's my contention that if natural is used to described an event caused by man then there needs to be no mystical connotations involved.
IOW, either everything humans do is natural, or nothing humans do is natural. Picking and choosing without some objective metric is subjective mysticism, an appeal to an authority that doesn't exist.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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zappaisgod
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Rahz]
#18876390 - 09/22/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I always just figured humans share most of the same characteristics as other organisms. Some seem to be unique to humans, as is the case with other organisms, but altering the environment is not one of those things. They all alter the environment.
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Icelander
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18876483 - 09/22/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes good point. People seem to think that if they can make the case that we act unnaturally that we'll be ashamed and straighten up. We are a product of nature and act in accordance with it's dictates. We can only do what nature has endowed us to do. Anything else is impossible and would be unnatural.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Icelander]
#18880268 - 09/23/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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But then, what the heck does 'unnatural' or 'artificial' mean by that definition ? Artificial flavors then wouldn't be allowed to be called that... The words 'natural' or 'artificial' wouldn't even exist.
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Icelander
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#18880644 - 09/23/13 01:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm speaking in an ultimate sense. Of course one can call things anything they want. It doesn't even have to be logical.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (09/23/13 01:34 PM)
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Is Man Made Climate Change a Natural Process? [Re: Icelander]
#18880736 - 09/23/13 01:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Damned be humans for their word abuse, but I think I know what they mean by it. If something is 'unnatural', it could be a possible 'harm' to ourselves, especially when fabricated by humans... Those using the term 'unnatural' assume that everything fabricated by humans inhibits a possible harm against us, or against 'nature'. Is there more danger in the things human fabricate, than in things we have to fear from nature itself ?

edit: And if aliens come to disrupt us, will that be a natural event ?
Edited by BlueCoyote (09/23/13 02:02 PM)
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