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Offlineimachavel
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #18845064 - 09/15/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What does it matter what information is released or how much information you have? Bradley Manning released thousands of documents, including a video tape of helicopter pilots murdering people in a van just for pulling by to inspect a completely hopelessly dying injured man crawling on the ground

Any charges filed? No. Did he get over 30 years in a military prison? Yes.

Who is accountable? Obama? Anyone? No. It matters not what information is released. Once it's released, it does no good for you other then education. That's about it :shrug:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Invisiblemaynardjameskeenan
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: imachavel]
    #18845243 - 09/15/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Are you saying the Snowden leaks are useless? Do you think we would be better off as a nation if we were left in the dark? I don't.


--------------------
May you be filled with loving kindness.
May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
May you be happy.



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Offlineviktor
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18845497 - 09/15/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have to have suffered some kind of abuse in order to have Stockholm syndrome.




True - but what's more, you have to deny that it was abuse. Aren't you a circumcision victim?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: imachavel]
    #18845705 - 09/15/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
What does it matter what information is released or how much information you have? Bradley Manning released thousands of documents, including a video tape of helicopter pilots murdering people in a van just for pulling by to inspect a completely hopelessly dying injured man crawling on the ground

Any charges filed? No. Did he get over 30 years in a military prison? Yes.

Who is accountable? Obama? Anyone? No. It matters not what information is released. Once it's released, it does no good for you other then education. That's about it :shrug:



Why do you keep lying about the video?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: viktor]
    #18845707 - 09/15/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have to have suffered some kind of abuse in order to have Stockholm syndrome.




True - but what's more, you have to deny that it was abuse. Aren't you a circumcision victim?



:rofl2::facepalm:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18853044 - 09/17/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

this thread was also funny.

jesus. people can have their heads up their ass sometimes. i'm not great with talking politics, or caring about it, actually... but people's idea of "psychoanalyzes" in this thread, is just pure gold, for psychoanalyzes.


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InvisibleTherian
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18857619 - 09/18/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You need to conduct your life as if you are under subpoena  and constant surveillance.




FUCK.....THAT....SHIT!!  And you characterize this behavior as living in a "free society" I didn't fight for that shit. The founders stated that our fourth amendment rights "were God given". 

Quote:

You need to conduct your life as if you are under subpoena  and constant surveillance.




Not a chance.

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." -Jefferson

Nothing will ever change until we vote these assholes out of office, or until reporters for the times get spied on, or some senators niece gets her vag groped by a TSA agent, or your congressman's wife has a cop put their fingers in her snatch and asshole for a driving offense, or some supreme court justice has his internet searches spied on and revealed,or they have the cops bust down their door, throw in a few flash bangs, shoot their dog, have guns drawn on their children, for the crime of having an electric bill that is too high for their standards, which of course is "legitimate" probable cause for some lying, ex lawyer turned judge douche to issue a warrant for.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: Therian]
    #18858148 - 09/18/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know why this is such a big deal.  Anything you write can be subpoenaed.  All your records can be.  Pretty much anything at all.  It has always been true.  If they have reason to believe that you are committing a crime they can go to a judge with their evidence and get a subpoena.  It is right there in the Constitution.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18858677 - 09/18/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't know why this is such a big deal.  Anything you write can be subpoenaed.  All your records can be.  Pretty much anything at all.  It has always been true.  If they have reason to believe that you are committing a crime they can go to a judge with their evidence and get a subpoena.  It is right there in the Constitution.




Was there evidence presented to a judge a subpoena/warrant issued in the situation being discussed, or in the situation of the snowden revelations. I honestly don't know, but if not it would seem you're comparing apples with oranges


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18858916 - 09/18/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Actually you're comparing apples to oranges.  I was making a general observation about how you should live your life.  What the NSA is doing is just datamining what phone number calls another.  Unless they get a warrant.  Except for other things that Snowden revealed, which is that we spy (horrors!) on other countries.  Shoot him on sight.  He is a spy and a traitor.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Registered: 05/23/09
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18858956 - 09/18/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't have a problem with us spying (on foreigners, and other governments that is). I don't have any love for snowden, he made his choices and now he'll live with outcome. But just to clarify, you do have a problem with the government collecting information without showing evidence to a judge to obtain a subpoena/warrant don't you? (on individuals protected by our constitution that is)


Edited by Simplicitry (09/18/13 04:18 PM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Registered: 05/23/09
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18859054 - 09/18/13 04:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I'd also like to say that unlike other subjects I discuss here I honestly haven't educated myself sufficiently on Snowden(I don't know if he sold information to the Chinese/Russians. Something I would frown upon) but if after adequately educating myself on the situation I find that the government is improperly collecting data on Constitutionally protected people or undermining our internet privacy then I'll be happy it's been revealed to me regardless of my opinions of him on other levels


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18862956 - 09/19/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
LOL.  What do you suppose anybody could do with the entire trove of private data of everybody?  The sheer volume would bury them.





It would be easy to search through this large amount of data to find confidential insider information on companies that would affect the stock price.  Someone in Israel could get rich doing insider trading or selling industrial secrets.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
So?  At some point a human has to read the shit.





Correct.  Search algotithms can turn terrabytes of emails into just a few pages of text that is likely to contain what the interesting bits. 

The way it works is you let it run overnight, sifting through the data for industrial secrets, etc., and then in the morning you spend 15 minutes reading the top results. 

You would tell the search algorithm to flag documents that are marked confidential, secret, etc, and contain keywords that make it likely that the industry you are spying on is the one referenced in the document. 

Quote:

maynardjameskeenan said:

Snowden has overstated his power and abilities at the NSA before, and I think he was lying when he said that.

http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-story-isnt-115500971.html





None of the accusations in that story hold up.  When he overstated his salary he was talking about how much he made at another job, not at the NSA.  He never said the NSA paid him the higher number.  As a sysadmin, he would have access to do anything that anyone else could do, since he controls the computers.  If the NSA could listen to phone calls, so could he.  Regarding his lack of credentials, I was hired to do sysadmin work by the government and never went to college.  They never asked me if I graduated HS either.  When they asked why I never went to college, I said that I started IT Security consulting directly out of high school, and that made me look even better than going to school would have.  And who cares when he left his home...


Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
What do you think of "3. Snowden didn't have the 'authority' to wiretap anybody" or "4.He might not have had the ability to do so, either?"





Certainly he was not supposed to have the ability to wiretap people.  However there are so many ways around that.  Since he has access to the facility, he could just sit at someone elses desk and use their authority to tap people.  Or he could use a keystroke logger to get the passwords needed to tap people.  As a network admin there are so many tricks he could have used, and there is no way to stop all of them.  Once someone has physical access to a machine, the security is pretty much sunk, and at the end of the day you have to trust _someone_ because the analysis are spies, not computer admins. 

I have heard that the NSA fixed this problem by firing all its sysadmins.  So now there is no one updating the systems, installing security patches or guarding the data.  Just an air gap, and all it takes is one unintentional leak, one cable plugged into the wrong port or a one line misconfiguation in a router, and a classified system becomes available over the internet.

It is simply not possible to make a system that is not hackable.  That is one of the reasons the NSA should not be trusted with so much important data. 

At IBM they once had a system they would show to customers, telling them that it was the worlds most secure computer.    It had no network connection, and therefore could not be hacked.  One day, someone broke in and stole it.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18862981 - 09/19/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Actually you're comparing apples to oranges.  I was making a general observation about how you should live your life.  What the NSA is doing is just datamining what phone number calls another.  Unless they get a warrant.





I guess you missed the part where they were caught weakening the encrpytion algorithms used on the internet?    These are the same algorithms that banks use.  (yes, when you do that online bank transfer, the only thing protecting your money is SSL.  When you use a ATM, the only thing protecting your account is DES.)  Not cool to go around intentionally weaking them.  They also occasionally inserted backdoors and naively thought that they were the only ones who would ever find them.  Of course critical bits of code (like SSL) get audited by every government on earth, and many people would have found the backdoors.

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-nsas-secret-campaign-to-crack-undermine-internet-encryption


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18863448 - 09/19/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Certainly he was not supposed to have the ability to wiretap people.  However there are so many ways around that.  Since he has access to the facility, he could just sit at someone elses desk and use their authority to tap people.  Or he could use a keystroke logger to get the passwords needed to tap people.  As a network admin there are so many tricks he could have used, and there is no way to stop all of them.  Once someone has physical access to a machine, the security is pretty much sunk, and at the end of the day you have to trust _someone_ because the analysis are spies, not computer admins. 




No objections here. My only point was that Snowden has lied about his position, power, and authority in the past.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Invisiblemaynardjameskeenan
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18863610 - 09/19/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Actually you're comparing apples to oranges.  I was making a general observation about how you should live your life.  What the NSA is doing is just datamining what phone number calls another.  Unless they get a warrant.





I guess you missed the part where they were caught weakening the encrpytion algorithms used on the internet?    These are the same algorithms that banks use.  (yes, when you do that online bank transfer, the only thing protecting your money is SSL.  When you use a ATM, the only thing protecting your account is DES.)  Not cool to go around intentionally weaking them.  They also occasionally inserted backdoors and naively thought that they were the only ones who would ever find them.  Of course critical bits of code (like SSL) get audited by every government on earth, and many people would have found the backdoors.

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-nsas-secret-campaign-to-crack-undermine-internet-encryption



Do you think Snowden is a trustworthy source of information Alan? Do you believe him?

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Certainly he was not supposed to have the ability to wiretap people.  However there are so many ways around that.  Since he has access to the facility, he could just sit at someone elses desk and use their authority to tap people.  Or he could use a keystroke logger to get the passwords needed to tap people.  As a network admin there are so many tricks he could have used, and there is no way to stop all of them.  Once someone has physical access to a machine, the security is pretty much sunk, and at the end of the day you have to trust _someone_ because the analysis are spies, not computer admins. 




No objections here. My only point was that Snowden has lied about his position, power, and authority in the past.



Sorry but to me this sounds like a classic Ad hominem attack. What makes him so untrustworthy?


--------------------
May you be filled with loving kindness.
May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
May you be happy.



AMU Q&A


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #18863659 - 09/19/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

maynardjameskeenan said:

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Certainly he was not supposed to have the ability to wiretap people.  However there are so many ways around that.  Since he has access to the facility, he could just sit at someone elses desk and use their authority to tap people.  Or he could use a keystroke logger to get the passwords needed to tap people.  As a network admin there are so many tricks he could have used, and there is no way to stop all of them.  Once someone has physical access to a machine, the security is pretty much sunk, and at the end of the day you have to trust _someone_ because the analysis are spies, not computer admins. 




No objections here. My only point was that Snowden has lied about his position, power, and authority in the past.



Sorry but to me this sounds like a classic Ad hominem attack. What makes him so untrustworthy?




How is that in anyway ad hominem?? Snowden has lied many times.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Invisiblemaynardjameskeenan
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18863866 - 09/19/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

maynardjameskeenan said:

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Certainly he was not supposed to have the ability to wiretap people.  However there are so many ways around that.  Since he has access to the facility, he could just sit at someone elses desk and use their authority to tap people.  Or he could use a keystroke logger to get the passwords needed to tap people.  As a network admin there are so many tricks he could have used, and there is no way to stop all of them.  Once someone has physical access to a machine, the security is pretty much sunk, and at the end of the day you have to trust _someone_ because the analysis are spies, not computer admins. 




No objections here. My only point was that Snowden has lied about his position, power, and authority in the past.



Sorry but to me this sounds like a classic Ad hominem attack. What makes him so untrustworthy?




How is that in anyway ad hominem?? Snowden has lied many times.



Please elaborate? It seem to me that there is a concerted effort to discredit the guy. If he was really a liar do you think anyone would pay attention to anything he says?


--------------------
May you be filled with loving kindness.
May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
May you be happy.



AMU Q&A


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
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Loc: Kanto Region
Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #18866845 - 09/20/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

First of all, to be ad hominem as you are claiming, I would have to blatantly attack the person I am debating with on grounds that are not relevant with the topic matter. I am not debating with Snowden, nor am I directly attacking him. Had I said something along the lines of "Snowden's a fat, ugly drunk. What does he know about anything?" then that would be ad hominem.

On the other hand, what I did, questioning someone's ethos is a valid method of argument. I provided evidence, from the same situation basically, where he has lied about similar matters. This casts doubt on similar claims that he makes.

People pay attention almost exclusively to liars, eg. politicians. People are paying attention to him because they find the practices, and the documents, he released interesting. They don't care at all about his credibility, because his credibility does not affect the validity of the documents he released, just the validity of his statements.

Now, I at no point got involved in the debate of what Snowden did, or even what I think of the guy. You can scroll back through my posts in this thread and see where this discussion originated. It was in response to this quote of Snowden's that you posted:

Quote:

“I also had the capability without any warrant to search for, seize, and read your communications.  Anyone’s communications at any time.  That is the power to change people’s fates.”




Maybe he had that power, maybe he didn't. Me providing examples where he has inflated his power and position before is not an example of ad hominem.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18866921 - 09/20/13 09:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

people should always read the origins of an argument they wish to partake in. most people, however, don't.


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