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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: clam_dude]
#18831029 - 09/12/13 02:15 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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clam_dude said:
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rbalzer said: Atheism is hugely misunderstood by christian fools, not to put all Christians in one boat. I respect atheists, as I used to be one myself. But that was before I tried mushrooms and other psychedelics 
I too have tried mushrooms and lsd, and this never made me believe in any sort of god. Wouldn't you think that if psychedelics are required in order to have these beliefs, that this is cause to be skeptical of these beliefs? I mean, did god decide to reveal himself to those who take brain altering drugs?
Are you really trying to pick holes into what i believe in a thread about religious tolerance?
I'm sorry you didn't have the same experience I did. It's magical.
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Deviate
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Yogi1]
#18831102 - 09/12/13 03:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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People are free to believe whatever they want to believe.
Personally I'm not religious but neither am I an atheist. My idea of "God" is similar to Ziggity. God is everything, and God is nothing. In fact God is probably more nothing than everything. You cannot define God. I like the way Eckhart Tolle puts it - God is the space in which everything exists.
WHy arent you religious? I mean, the way you described God is clearly the same phenomena that is being written about in holy scriptures, so if you recognize this God, you are clearly on the side of religion in worldview. I think it is a shame that religion is not associated with God anymore, to such a degree that people who have known God do not consider themselves religious.
I guess I used to be like you, I considered myself spiritual but not religious. But then after studying religion, I realized I was absolutely definitely 100% religious. Religious is the second best thing you can be, second only to self-realized. But I mean truly religious, on fire with love for God, not just checking a box that says christian, mulsim, etc.
If you cant define god you cant be religious.
I'm religious and I can't define God.
Religion is defined by believing in a defined dogma. A person who believes but does not follow dogma is not religious.... Basic definition is basic...
Uhm, no that is how you are defining religion and you are making it out to be very black and white.
I googled definition of religious and the first dictionary i clicked on gave the following definition"
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
I most certainly qualify as religious under that definition.
But I wanted to perhaps clarify what I meant. When I say I cant define God, I am not saying I reject the definitions of God as provided by religion. I just have never heard a priest or theologian claim that any single definition of God is the be all end all of what God is. That is not what Christianity teaches to my knowledge, on the contrary God is ultimately a mystery, his essence being resistant to definition. Christians believe He has revealed himself to us through Moses and the prophets and in the person of Jesus Christ. Through his revelation to us, we are able to know some of God's attributes. If by listing some of the things we know about God is what you mean by define God, then I guess I can define God but what I meant was that any definition of God is inadequate to express the true nature of God's identity.
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Deviate
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#18831112 - 09/12/13 03:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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rbalzer said:
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clam_dude said:
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rbalzer said: Atheism is hugely misunderstood by christian fools, not to put all Christians in one boat. I respect atheists, as I used to be one myself. But that was before I tried mushrooms and other psychedelics 
I too have tried mushrooms and lsd, and this never made me believe in any sort of god. Wouldn't you think that if psychedelics are required in order to have these beliefs, that this is cause to be skeptical of these beliefs? I mean, did god decide to reveal himself to those who take brain altering drugs?
Are you really trying to pick holes into what i believe in a thread about religious tolerance?
I'm sorry you didn't have the same experience I did. It's magical.
psychedelics are by no means required for religious belief. Do you think all the billions of people in the world who are religious are all psychedelic user? No, no, no. ABsolutely not. Psychedelic is just one way of dissolving the culteral conditioning that makes us focus our attention solely on the physical world.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#18832106 - 09/12/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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rbalzer said:
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clam_dude said:
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rbalzer said: Atheism is hugely misunderstood by christian fools, not to put all Christians in one boat. I respect atheists, as I used to be one myself. But that was before I tried mushrooms and other psychedelics 
I too have tried mushrooms and lsd, and this never made me believe in any sort of god. Wouldn't you think that if psychedelics are required in order to have these beliefs, that this is cause to be skeptical of these beliefs? I mean, did god decide to reveal himself to those who take brain altering drugs?
Are you really trying to pick holes into what i believe in a thread about religious tolerance?
I'm sorry you didn't have the same experience I did. It's magical.
Picking holes in someone's beliefs has nothing to do with respecting them as a person. This thread is about weather or not atheists are viewed negatively. If there are holes in my logic, point them out and I won't be offended. Religious have simply gotten used to the notion that they can cry out that they've been offended just because they're wrong about something.
I was just pointing out that if psychedelics are what triggered your "magical" experiences, wouldn't you (after your trip is over) realize that it's probably a hallucination?
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Deviate]
#18832156 - 09/12/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Deviate said:
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Deviate said: I can get annoyed with atheists when they behave extremely arrogantly and confrontationally. I think what gets on my nerves about them, is how they claim to hold logic and reason in such high regard, and then make all kinds of logical errors in their attack on religion.
I haven't made any logical errors in my attack on religion (that I'm aware of). Maybe you could point out some common examples. Also, an illogical argument is simply an illogical argument. It's not reflective at all of atheists as a whole (atheism simply being lack of belief in a god)
Did I say anywhere that I was referring to you?
Do I have to go quoting you again? You made a blanket statement about "atheists" as a whole. "they claim to hold logic and reason in such high regard, and then make all kinds of logical errors ". My point is that I am an atheist who hasn't used illogical arguments.
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Perhaps most atheists are in fact aware of the many versions of religion. It's just that they can't address everyone's idea of religion at once. So they address the most common forms. I happen to think that there are as many versions of religion or god as there are believers. To me, this reinforces the notion that god is a man made construct.
As opposed to? All concepts held in the minds of men are in a sense man made. This is why I like the Buddhist analogy of the purpose of religion as being like that of a raft. You use the raft to get yourself across a river but you dont continue to carry it around with you everywhere after that. Similarly, religion was intended to get one to awaken, or to come to knowledge of God, not to be clung to as an end in itself.
So...god is just a concept right? I have a concept of god as well. That doesn't mean it exists.
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I wouldn't say I "don't know anything" about the universe, but I admittedly know very, very little. As does everyone. Nobody knows weather or not there is a god.
How do you know that no one knows whether there is a god? How can you be certain of that?
I'm sure there are people "know" there is a god. But they're just wrong. If I claim to know there is a tooth fairy, nobody would take me seriously. I don't see how it's any different.
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My realization that I did not really know anything about reality and thus my almost completely unquestioned assumption that materialism was correct was absurd came years before I even seriously began thinking about God. It was simply the first step in a process which lead to an overhaul in my worldview from atheist to Christian. My point was that atheists will frequently question religious assumptions while operating under a different yet equally unproven set of assumptions.
What assumptions are these? I assume that things don't exist until I see evidence for it. You can claim something exists and I can't prove it doesn't. So I have an "unproven assumption" that ____doesn't exist. Well why do you have an unproven assumption that the tooth fairy doesn't exist?
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As for how we can know something you don't, that shouldn't be hard to understand. People know things other people don't all the time. In the case of God, its really a matter of Him revealing Himself to you, which he will do if you seek him earnestly.
I guess I'm one of the ones who God will never reveal himself to, as it seems that most people who have had this revelation were indoctrinated from a young age to believe in god. And people from christian families have revelations of the christian god, etc... I just can't take it seriously.
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If it's not possible to know whether or not there is a god, its not possible to know for certain that nobody knows enough to claim there is a god. How can you possibly know that?
Lol listen to yourself. If it's not possible to know weather or not there is a god, that means that nobody knows weather there is a god or not 
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Do you know the minds of others? If not, you cannot possibly guess at what they contain, what these peoples experience of life is like and what leads them to make the claims that they make. It is arrogant to assume you know the limits of the minds of others.
Well what if I told you there is a tooth fairy, and my only evidence of this is personal revelation. "The tooth fairy revealed herself to me. Don't believe me? Well how can you possible know what goes on inside my brain?"
I'll address the rest later, gotta go.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: clam_dude]
#18833084 - 09/12/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have no response to what you have to say.
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Yogi1
Squatchin
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#18833177 - 09/12/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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BELIEVE!!!
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Deviate
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: clam_dude]
#18833254 - 09/12/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do I have to go quoting you again? You made a blanket statement about "atheists" as a whole. "they claim to hold logic and reason in such high regard, and then make all kinds of logical errors ". My point is that I am an atheist who hasn't used illogical arguments.
I never said all atheists do that, I was speaking specifically about the ones who are apt to get on my nerves. But do you really think you are an unbiased judge as to whether or not your logic is sound? No one thinks they are being illogical. Hey, let me convince of my views with my illogical arguments! How often do you hear someone say that?
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Perhaps most atheists are in fact aware of the many versions of religion. It's just that they can't address everyone's idea of religion at once. So they address the most common forms. I happen to think that there are as many versions of religion or god as there are believers. To me, this reinforces the notion that god is a man made construct.
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So...god is just a concept right? I have a concept of god as well. That doesn't mean it exists.
I never said having a concept of something meant that thing existed. I said that the fact that people have different concepts of God doesn't mean there is not an actual phenomenon at play that humanity has termed God.
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I wouldn't say I "don't know anything" about the universe, but I admittedly know very, very little. As does everyone. Nobody knows weather or not there is a god.
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I'm sure there are people "know" there is a god. But they're just wrong.
How do you know for certain that they are wrong? Most atheists are at least willing to admit that it is at least possible that there is a God and is at least possible that God can/has revealed himself to certain people. No matter how unlikely you think God might be, you have no bases for saying God is impossible, and thus you cannot say for certain that those who claim to know him are wrong or deluded. You can believe that and thats what I was saying before, I actually think believing that God is some kind of collective delusion felt by many people is closer to the truth than believing that God is just some made up thing that does not have any actual properties of its own.
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If I claim to know there is a tooth fairy, nobody would take me seriously. I don't see how it's any different.
And I might not be able to tell the difference between a douglas fur and a great northern spruce. Does that prove there is no difference? Secondly, the amount of people who take you seriously is not an accurate way to determine the truth or falsehood of a claim.
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What assumptions are these? I assume that things don't exist until I see evidence for it. You can claim something exists and I can't prove it doesn't. So I have an "unproven assumption" that ____doesn't exist. Well why do you have an unproven assumption that the tooth fairy doesn't exist?
I assume the tooth doesn't exist because i have not seen any evidence that it does. I felt the same way about God also until he revealed himself to me. I cannot pass on that revelation to you. It's something everyone must discover for themself. I guess that is an example of one of the assumptions atheist make. You seem to be assuming that I should be able to provide evidence of God's existence. All types of assumptions are at work behind the scenes in virtually any discussion between two people. Another assumption you seem to have is that because you cannot understand something (like the difference between believing in God and the tooth fairy) then there must not be a difference.
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I guess I'm one of the ones who God will never reveal himself to, as it seems that most people who have had this revelation were indoctrinated from a young age to believe in god. And people from christian families have revelations of the christian god, etc... I just can't take it seriously.
It doesn't strike me as very logical to make that assumption for the reasons you listed. Plenty of people, myself included, were hardened atheists that came from non religious families before God revealed himself to us.
As for people from Christian families seeing the Christian God, I'm very glad you brought that up. This is a great example of the dillema we're facing in trying to communicate. Its quite often that things which appear as serious problems with the concept of God to atheists, make perfect sense and would be expected from my point of view. In this case, it's the same God but of course Christians who experience this God are going to describe Him with Christian terms . Your culteral background always colors the way you interpret your experiences. Also, assuming God chose to reveal Himself to a Christian, why would he appear in the form of Buddha? Wouldn't it make more sense to appear as Buddha to a Buddhist and as Jesus to a Christian?
Having been an atheist for more than 20 years myself, I completely understand how you must see so many problems with religion and the whole idea of a benevolent God. I can assure you I was the same way. Now instead of problems, I only see solutions. What changed? My perspective. For atheists, the intellect is the only thing they trust. They put all their faith in the
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Lol listen to yourself. If it's not possible to know weather or not there is a god, that means that nobody knows weather there is a god or not 
Actually I was saying something else.
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Well what if I told you there is a tooth fairy, and my only evidence of this is personal revelation. "The tooth fairy revealed herself to me. Don't believe me? Well how can you possible know what goes on inside my brain?"
I'll address the rest later, gotta go.
But that's not at all what I'm doing. I'm not saying "you should believe in God because God revealed himself to me". On the contrary, as I said earlier in this post, I can't transfer my relevation over to you. Thats why I said the nature of God is ultimately something every individual must discover for themselves. I'd think it would be very silly for you to start believing in things for no other reason then because I say they are true.
All I am doing is reporting my experience of how life is. In my experience, there is a wellspring of inner joy and wisdom that nourishes the soul from within. It's not only I who think this, but almost every culture that has ever existed has believed in some kind of other world/spiritual realm that is hidden from our normal awareness. What do you think I should do? Shut up and keep it all to myself? I could do that but the fact that I choose to speak about it sometimes doesn't mean I expect you to just take my word for it. Instead, if I had to give you a recommendation of any kind, I would recommend that you really ask yourself where does peace come from? When my soul is at peace, is that a by product of my external circumstances or is it possible that the source of peace lies within? Religions are really just guides for how to uncover lasting happiness. I maintain that looking at them from the point of view of whether they are true or false is missing the point.
The point should be to ask yourself this: What is my philosophy on how to live in a such a way that I can be sustainably happy? What is your answer to that question?
Atheists tend to spend inordinate amounts of time debating over largely pointless and for the most part unanswerable questions like does God exist or trying to argue science vs religion. But religion was never intended to be an alternative to science or to be pitted against it. Religion is a collection of the ancient life wisdom put together by different cultures. What is the purpose of wisdom? To help us live our lives in such a way that we may we may experience the most happiness. Thus I feel like religious debates should be reframed as discussions over how to find happiness in life. The traditional view held by religion is that the true source of happiness is to be found within whereas man's natural inclination is to look for it outside. This is why Christianity tells us that pursuing power, riches, pleasure, and recognition ultimately adds up to vanity and does not give us true peace. So in my opinion whether you agree with religious ideals or not, should at least in part be determined by your personal philosophy on happiness and some silly debate over the existence of God.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Deviate]
#18833642 - 09/12/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Deviate said: I never said all atheists do that, I was speaking specifically about the ones who are apt to get on my nerves. But do you really think you are an unbiased judge as to whether or not your logic is sound? No one thinks they are being illogical. Hey, let me convince of my views with my illogical arguments! How often do you hear someone say that?
Fair enough, you don't think all atheists use illogical arguments. I was just using myself as an example of an atheist who doesn't use illogical arguments. By and large, I very rarely hear atheists make illogical arguments. If they do, it rarely pertains specifically to the issue of god, as there is no such thing as arguing against god's existence. People do use illogical arguments all the time and some of them happen to be atheist. But I'm still waiting for an example of a common argument used by atheists that you think is illogical.
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I never said having a concept of something meant that thing existed. I said that the fact that people have different concepts of God doesn't mean there is not an actual phenomenon at play that humanity has termed God.
You're right, it doesn't mean there is not an actual phenomenon. But it doesn't mean there is either.
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I'm sure there are people "know" there is a god. But they're just wrong.
How do you know for certain that they are wrong? Most atheists are at least willing to admit that it is at least possible that there is a God and is at least possible that God can/has revealed himself to certain people. No matter how unlikely you think God might be, you have no bases for saying God is impossible, and thus you cannot say for certain that those who claim to know him are wrong or deluded. You can believe that and thats what I was saying before, I actually think believing that God is some kind of collective delusion felt by many people is closer to the truth than believing that God is just some made up thing that does not have any actual properties of its own.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't say that god is impossible. What I said is that no human can claim to "know" that god exists. Maybe god does exist, but the notion that he would reveal himself to a select few who happen to have similar view of god as their parents and peers is pretty insane.
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I assume the tooth doesn't exist because i have not seen any evidence that it does. I felt the same way about God also until he revealed himself to me. I cannot pass on that revelation to you. It's something everyone must discover for themself. I guess that is an example of one of the assumptions atheist make. You seem to be assuming that I should be able to provide evidence of God's existence. All types of assumptions are at work behind the scenes in virtually any discussion between two people. Another assumption you seem to have is that because you cannot understand something (like the difference between believing in God and the tooth fairy) then there must not be a difference.
Ok well if I told you the tooth fairy revealed herself to me, you would probably have lots of questions - what did she look like? What did she say? How did she communicate to you? Did she fly through the air or just appear before you? etc... And if my answer was "the tooth fairy is everything and nothing at the same time," what would you think?
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I guess I'm one of the ones who God will never reveal himself to, as it seems that most people who have had this revelation were indoctrinated from a young age to believe in god. And people from christian families have revelations of the christian god, etc... I just can't take it seriously.
It doesn't strike me as very logical to make that assumption for the reasons you listed. Plenty of people, myself included, were hardened atheists that came from non religious families before God revealed himself to us.
You're one of the few though, as most religious people got their religion from their parents. And they share the same religion as their parents. What a coincidence.
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As for people from Christian families seeing the Christian God, I'm very glad you brought that up. This is a great example of the dillema we're facing in trying to communicate. Its quite often that things which appear as serious problems with the concept of God to atheists, make perfect sense and would be expected from my point of view. In this case, it's the same God but of course Christians who experience this God are going to describe Him with Christian terms . Your culteral background always colors the way you interpret your experiences. Also, assuming God chose to reveal Himself to a Christian, why would he appear in the form of Buddha? Wouldn't it make more sense to appear as Buddha to a Buddhist and as Jesus to a Christian?
Oh I see, so god reveals himself as Buddha to all people who happen to be brought up in one part of the world, or as Allah to people brought up in a different part/culture. Ya learn something new every day.
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Having been an atheist for more than 20 years myself, I completely understand how you must see so many problems with religion and the whole idea of a benevolent God. I can assure you I was the same way. Now instead of problems, I only see solutions. What changed? My perspective. For atheists, the intellect is the only thing they trust. They put all their faith in the
I don't know what it means "putting faith in intellect." I don't have faith in anything and nor do most atheists I've talked to.
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Actually I was saying something else.
Maybe you meant to say something else. Go back and read what you wrote. If it's not possible to know weather or not there is a god then....it's not possible to know weather or not there is a god. Unless of course, you mean that it's possible for some people to know and not others. Maybe you can clarify.
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Well what if I told you there is a tooth fairy, and my only evidence of this is personal revelation. "The tooth fairy revealed herself to me. Don't believe me? Well how can you possible know what goes on inside my brain?"
I'll address the rest later, gotta go.
But that's not at all what I'm doing. I'm not saying "you should believe in God because God revealed himself to me". On the contrary, as I said earlier in this post, I can't transfer my relevation over to you. Thats why I said the nature of God is ultimately something every individual must discover for themselves. I'd think it would be very silly for you to start believing in things for no other reason then because I say they are true.
I guess I would just refer you to what I wrote before about if I had an revelation from the tooth fairy and then told you that the tooth fairy is "everything and nothing at the same time," or any other meaningless configuration of words that I have heard in this thread as a definition of god.
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All I am doing is reporting my experience of how life is. In my experience, there is a wellspring of inner joy and wisdom that nourishes the soul from within. It's not only I who think this, but almost every culture that has ever existed has believed in some kind of other world/spiritual realm that is hidden from our normal awareness. What do you think I should do? Shut up and keep it all to myself? I could do that but the fact that I choose to speak about it sometimes doesn't mean I expect you to just take my word for it. Instead, if I had to give you a recommendation of any kind, I would recommend that you really ask yourself where does peace come from? When my soul is at peace, is that a by product of my external circumstances or is it possible that the source of peace lies within? Religions are really just guides for how to uncover lasting happiness. I maintain that looking at them from the point of view of whether they are true or false is missing the point.
The point should be to ask yourself this: What is my philosophy on how to live in a such a way that I can be sustainably happy? What is your answer to that question?
Atheists tend to spend inordinate amounts of time debating over largely pointless and for the most part unanswerable questions like does God exist or trying to argue science vs religion. But religion was never intended to be an alternative to science or to be pitted against it. Religion is a collection of the ancient life wisdom put together by different cultures. What is the purpose of wisdom? To help us live our lives in such a way that we may we may experience the most happiness. Thus I feel like religious debates should be reframed as discussions over how to find happiness in life. The traditional view held by religion is that the true source of happiness is to be found within whereas man's natural inclination is to look for it outside. This is why Christianity tells us that pursuing power, riches, pleasure, and recognition ultimately adds up to vanity and does not give us true peace. So in my opinion whether you agree with religious ideals or not, should at least in part be determined by your personal philosophy on happiness and some silly debate over the existence of God.
I think we agree as to what the important things are in life - experiences, love, music, nature, etc...Most atheists see these as important, much more important than numbers, and science and material things. But I simply fail to see what religion adds to this.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (09/12/13 06:39 PM)
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Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: clam_dude]
#18833689 - 09/12/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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clam_dude said:
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Deviate said: I never said all atheists do that, I was speaking specifically about the ones who are apt to get on my nerves. But do you really think you are an unbiased judge as to whether or not your logic is sound? No one thinks they are being illogical. Hey, let me convince of my views with my illogical arguments! How often do you hear someone say that?
Fair enough, you don't think all atheists use illogical arguments. I was just using myself as an example of an atheist who doesn't use illogical arguments. By and large, I very rarely hear atheists make illogical arguments. If they do, it rarely pertains specifically to the issue of god, as there is no such thing as arguing against god's existence. People do use illogical arguments all the time and some of them happen to be atheist. But I'm still waiting for an example of a common argument used by atheists that you think is illogical.
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I never said having a concept of something meant that thing existed. I said that the fact that people have different concepts of God doesn't mean there is not an actual phenomenon at play that humanity has termed God.
You're right, it doesn't mean there is not an actual phenomenon. But it doesn't mean there is either.
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I'm sure there are people "know" there is a god. But they're just wrong.
How do you know for certain that they are wrong? Most atheists are at least willing to admit that it is at least possible that there is a God and is at least possible that God can/has revealed himself to certain people. No matter how unlikely you think God might be, you have no bases for saying God is impossible, and thus you cannot say for certain that those who claim to know him are wrong or deluded. You can believe that and thats what I was saying before, I actually think believing that God is some kind of collective delusion felt by many people is closer to the truth than believing that God is just some made up thing that does not have any actual properties of its own.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't say that god is impossible. What I said is that no human can claim to "know" that god exists. Maybe god does exist, but the notion that he would reveal himself to a select few who happen to have similar view of god as their parents and peers is pretty insane.
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I assume the tooth doesn't exist because i have not seen any evidence that it does. I felt the same way about God also until he revealed himself to me. I cannot pass on that revelation to you. It's something everyone must discover for themself. I guess that is an example of one of the assumptions atheist make. You seem to be assuming that I should be able to provide evidence of God's existence. All types of assumptions are at work behind the scenes in virtually any discussion between two people. Another assumption you seem to have is that because you cannot understand something (like the difference between believing in God and the tooth fairy) then there must not be a difference.
Ok well if I told you the tooth fairy revealed herself to me, you would probably have lots of questions - what did she look like? What did she say? How did she communicate to you? Did she fly through the air or just appear before you? etc... And if my answer was "the tooth fairy is everything and nothing at the same time," what would you think?
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I guess I'm one of the ones who God will never reveal himself to, as it seems that most people who have had this revelation were indoctrinated from a young age to believe in god. And people from christian families have revelations of the christian god, etc... I just can't take it seriously.
It doesn't strike me as very logical to make that assumption for the reasons you listed. Plenty of people, myself included, were hardened atheists that came from non religious families before God revealed himself to us.
You're one of the few though, as most religious people got their religion from their parents. And they share the same religion as their parents. What a coincidence.
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As for people from Christian families seeing the Christian God, I'm very glad you brought that up. This is a great example of the dillema we're facing in trying to communicate. Its quite often that things which appear as serious problems with the concept of God to atheists, make perfect sense and would be expected from my point of view. In this case, it's the same God but of course Christians who experience this God are going to describe Him with Christian terms . Your culteral background always colors the way you interpret your experiences. Also, assuming God chose to reveal Himself to a Christian, why would he appear in the form of Buddha? Wouldn't it make more sense to appear as Buddha to a Buddhist and as Jesus to a Christian?
Oh I see, so god reveals himself as Buddha to all people who happen to be brought up in one part of the world, or as Allah to people brought up in a different part/culture. Ya learn something new every day.
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Having been an atheist for more than 20 years myself, I completely understand how you must see so many problems with religion and the whole idea of a benevolent God. I can assure you I was the same way. Now instead of problems, I only see solutions. What changed? My perspective. For atheists, the intellect is the only thing they trust. They put all their faith in the
I don't know what it means "putting faith in intellect." I don't have faith in anything and nor do most atheists I've talked to.
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Actually I was saying something else.
Maybe you meant to say something else. Go back and read what you wrote. If it's not possible to know weather or not there is a god then....it's not possible to know weather or not there is a god. Unless of course, you mean that it's possible for some people to know and not others. Maybe you can clarify.
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Well what if I told you there is a tooth fairy, and my only evidence of this is personal revelation. "The tooth fairy revealed herself to me. Don't believe me? Well how can you possible know what goes on inside my brain?"
I'll address the rest later, gotta go.
But that's not at all what I'm doing. I'm not saying "you should believe in God because God revealed himself to me". On the contrary, as I said earlier in this post, I can't transfer my relevation over to you. Thats why I said the nature of God is ultimately something every individual must discover for themselves. I'd think it would be very silly for you to start believing in things for no other reason then because I say they are true.
I guess I would just refer you to what I wrote before about if I had an revelation from the tooth fairy and then told you that the tooth fairy is "everything and nothing at the same time," or any other meaningless configuration of words that I have heard in this thread as a definition of god.
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All I am doing is reporting my experience of how life is. In my experience, there is a wellspring of inner joy and wisdom that nourishes the soul from within. It's not only I who think this, but almost every culture that has ever existed has believed in some kind of other world/spiritual realm that is hidden from our normal awareness. What do you think I should do? Shut up and keep it all to myself? I could do that but the fact that I choose to speak about it sometimes doesn't mean I expect you to just take my word for it. Instead, if I had to give you a recommendation of any kind, I would recommend that you really ask yourself where does peace come from? When my soul is at peace, is that a by product of my external circumstances or is it possible that the source of peace lies within? Religions are really just guides for how to uncover lasting happiness. I maintain that looking at them from the point of view of whether they are true or false is missing the point.
The point should be to ask yourself this: What is my philosophy on how to live in a such a way that I can be sustainably happy? What is your answer to that question?
Atheists tend to spend inordinate amounts of time debating over largely pointless and for the most part unanswerable questions like does God exist or trying to argue science vs religion. But religion was never intended to be an alternative to science or to be pitted against it. Religion is a collection of the ancient life wisdom put together by different cultures. What is the purpose of wisdom? To help us live our lives in such a way that we may we may experience the most happiness. Thus I feel like religious debates should be reframed as discussions over how to find happiness in life. The traditional view held by religion is that the true source of happiness is to be found within whereas man's natural inclination is to look for it outside. This is why Christianity tells us that pursuing power, riches, pleasure, and recognition ultimately adds up to vanity and does not give us true peace. So in my opinion whether you agree with religious ideals or not, should at least in part be determined by your personal philosophy on happiness and some silly debate over the existence of God.
I think we agree as to what the important things are in life - experiences, love, music, nature, etc...Most atheists see these as important, much more important than numbers, and science and material things. But I simply fail to see what religion adds to this.
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Deviate
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: clam_dude]
#18835523 - 09/13/13 03:00 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fair enough, you don't think all atheists use illogical arguments. I was just using myself as an example of an atheist who doesn't use illogical arguments. By and large, I very rarely hear atheists make illogical arguments. If they do, it rarely pertains specifically to the issue of god, as there is no such thing as arguing against god's existence. People do use illogical arguments all the time and some of them happen to be atheist. But I'm still waiting for an example of a common argument used by atheists that you think is illogical.
Of course you don't think the arguments are illogical.
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I think you misunderstood me. I don't say that god is impossible. What I said is that no human can claim to "know" that god exists. Maybe god does exist, but the notion that he would reveal himself to a select few who happen to have similar view of god as their parents and peers is pretty insane.
No I didn't misunderstand you. If you are not saying God is impossible, then it follows that you admit there is some possibility, however remote, that God exists. If that is the case, you must also admit that it possible God reveals himself to certain people. You cannot say it is possible God exists but not possible he reveals himself to anyone. That makes no logical sense and yet that appears to be what you are saying. You can think it sounds insane if you want to, but that proves nothing. That's like if I said, atheism is pretty insane. Indeed it might seem insane to me, but I understand it doesn't seem that way to you so I would not make that kind of argument. I would appreciate it if you would show me the same respect.
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Ok well if I told you the tooth fairy revealed herself to me, you would probably have lots of questions - what did she look like? What did she say? How did she communicate to you? Did she fly through the air or just appear before you? etc... And if my answer was "the tooth fairy is everything and nothing at the same time," what would you think?
I would think you were nuts and I would not engage in any further discussion with you. Clearly you do not think that about me however, or you would not waste your time replying to my posts. So enough with these stupid comparisons to the tooth fairy.
As for the statement eveything and nothing, that applies to God because God is not any particular thing, but the source of all things, all things are just God appearing as what you call things. That's just FYI right there, because I dont think you understood that statement, or you would not have applied it to the tooth fairy, which is clearly a particular thing. You cannot compare the universal to the particular, which is why comparisons between God and the tooth fairy or flying spaggheti monster are so inane.
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Oh I see, so god reveals himself as Buddha to all people who happen to be brought up in one part of the world, or as Allah to people brought up in a different part/culture. Ya learn something new every day.
God will most likely initially manifest as whatever form you worshipped him as.
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I don't know what it means "putting faith in intellect." I don't have faith in anything and nor do most atheists I've talked to.
You obviously have faith in your intellect or you would not be using it to formulate arguments here. If you have no faith in it, quit using it and dont reply.
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Actually I was saying something else.
Maybe you meant to say something else. Go back and read what you wrote. If it's not possible to know weather or not there is a god then....it's not possible to know weather or not there is a god. Unless of course, you mean that it's possible for some people to know and not others. Maybe you can clarify.
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Well what if I told you there is a tooth fairy, and my only evidence of this is personal revelation. "The tooth fairy revealed herself to me. Don't believe me? Well how can you possible know what goes on inside my brain?"
I'll address the rest later, gotta go.
But that's not at all what I'm doing. I'm not saying "you should believe in God because God revealed himself to me". On the contrary, as I said earlier in this post, I can't transfer my relevation over to you. Thats why I said the nature of God is ultimately something every individual must discover for themselves. I'd think it would be very silly for you to start believing in things for no other reason then because I say they are true.
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I guess I would just refer you to what I wrote before about if I had an revelation from the tooth fairy and then told you that the tooth fairy is "everything and nothing at the same time," or any other meaningless configuration of words that I have heard in this thread as a definition of god.
The words are meaningless to you in the same way russian is meaningless to me. Just dont make the mistake of assuming that because you dont understand something, it must be nonsense. I dont understand russian but that doesnt mean russian in nonsense.
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I think we agree as to what the important things are in life - experiences, love, music, nature, etc...Most atheists see these as important, much more important than numbers, and science and material things. But I simply fail to see what religion adds to this.
I'm not necessarily talking about what's important in life, I'm talking about the source of happiness. Music and nature are beautiful and enriching to the soul, but are they the source of happiness? Not according to religion. Religion teaches at that the true source of peace and happiness lies within. As St. Augustine said, our hearts are restless until they come to rest in thee (speaking to God). That's what religion adds. The teaching that the source of happiness is within and thus we can be at competely peace even in very difficult circumstances.
Now, you can either agree with this notion or reject it. I don't particularly care which you choose to do, just please stop arguing with me. I have already stated my position to you. I dont understand what more you want from me. I have already told you I cant prove the existence of God to you, so I dont understand why you are not satisfied with what I have said thus far. If you dont agree, fine, think I'm insane? fine, just please make your decision and stop trying to argue with me. I dont like pointless debates and I have already expressed my feelings on these issues as much as I desire to.
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 10,864
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Deviate] 1
#18835540 - 09/13/13 03:10 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Meanwhile:
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Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Into The Woods]
#18836491 - 09/13/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Into The Woods said: Meanwhile:

This guy knows whats going on
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R4V4N4
Stranger



Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 80
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: clam_dude]
#18861596 - 09/19/13 04:13 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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clam_dude said: Do you guys and gals have negative views of atheists and skeptics? As an atheist myself, I feel atheism is often misunderstood. There is a misconception that "atheists say there is no god". Is this something that gets passed around in the "spiritual" community?
In addition, do you think that non- "spiritual" people, and people without "faith" are missing something? Is there something in the compassion, empathy, or creativity departments that we are lacking? If so, what is it?
I have no negative views against "athiests" that are humble and are open to the possibility of a god or gods. I believe religion is only a vehicle to find god. Once you have found god, religion can be abandoned because no religion can or should explain god accurately.
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Fun-Gee
Sir



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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: R4V4N4]
#18861647 - 09/19/13 05:16 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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god is a bunch of scientific ignorance, at least religions are. Im sure you can make whatever definition of god which pleases you. which tells absolutely nothing if its true or not. i dont understand why so many Americans still are Christians, even denies facts like evolution and stuff. rest of the western world has put much of this behind them, remembering the times when church and priests rules, its called the freaking dark ages for a reason. i hardly know anyone that is still religious here in Norway. so ill just say this , i dont care how religious people perceive not believers. what is certain is that progress first came when we became more secular and dared think outside the church box. The less religious things got the more humane they became. of course some idiot gonna name stalin or something and say that is what atheism leads to. which is stupid, because thats political ideology taken to the extreme, not non belief. but what is certain is that the secular community treats the religious community FAR better than the religious community treated non believers and atheists when they were in charge.
to sum it up, who cares what religious people feel about it :P they are the ones believing in weird stuff
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Yogi1
Squatchin
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Fun-Gee]
#18862883 - 09/19/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fun-Gee said: god is a bunch of scientific ignorance, at least religions are. Im sure you can make whatever definition of god which pleases you. which tells absolutely nothing if its true or not. i dont understand why so many Americans still are Christians, even denies facts like evolution and stuff. rest of the western world has put much of this behind them, remembering the times when church and priests rules, its called the freaking dark ages for a reason. i hardly know anyone that is still religious here in Norway. so ill just say this , i dont care how religious people perceive not believers. what is certain is that progress first came when we became more secular and dared think outside the church box. The less religious things got the more humane they became. of course some idiot gonna name stalin or something and say that is what atheism leads to. which is stupid, because thats political ideology taken to the extreme, not non belief. but what is certain is that the secular community treats the religious community FAR better than the religious community treated non believers and atheists when they were in charge.
to sum it up, who cares what religious people feel about it :P they are the ones believing in weird stuff
I can not be religious, take physicists word for it on a bunch of unprovable theories elaborating on a 50 year old school of thought and that would be the current scientific field.
I could believe in evolution only able to be captured in sporadic changes based on the small population at many point in history of organisms that survived chaotic earth changes (gaps in many parts of several fossil records etc)
I could believe that we are currently very pissibly creating universes or multiverses accidentally by splitting and colliding particles in particle colliders...
But its crazy to think that the big bang could have resulted from another being...
Christianity is more than provably bullshit, as is most religion... But lets not for a second consider that spirituals and the religious are automatically the silly ones
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R4V4N4
Stranger



Registered: 08/18/13
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Yogi1]
#18863084 - 09/19/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fun-Gee said: god is a bunch of scientific ignorance, at least religions are. Im sure you can make whatever definition of god which pleases you. which tells absolutely nothing if its true or not. i dont understand why so many Americans still are Christians, even denies facts like evolution and stuff. rest of the western world has put much of this behind them, remembering the times when church and priests rules, its called the freaking dark ages for a reason. i hardly know anyone that is still religious here in Norway. so ill just say this , i dont care how religious people perceive not believers. what is certain is that progress first came when we became more secular and dared think outside the church box. The less religious things got the more humane they became. of course some idiot gonna name stalin or something and say that is what atheism leads to. which is stupid, because thats political ideology taken to the extreme, not non belief. but what is certain is that the secular community treats the religious community FAR better than the religious community treated non believers and atheists when they were in charge.
to sum it up, who cares what religious people feel about it :P they are the ones believing in weird stuff
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Yogi1 said:
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Fun-Gee said: god is a bunch of scientific ignorance, at least religions are. Im sure you can make whatever definition of god which pleases you. which tells absolutely nothing if its true or not. i dont understand why so many Americans still are Christians, even denies facts like evolution and stuff. rest of the western world has put much of this behind them, remembering the times when church and priests rules, its called the freaking dark ages for a reason. i hardly know anyone that is still religious here in Norway. so ill just say this , i dont care how religious people perceive not believers. what is certain is that progress first came when we became more secular and dared think outside the church box. The less religious things got the more humane they became. of course some idiot gonna name stalin or something and say that is what atheism leads to. which is stupid, because thats political ideology taken to the extreme, not non belief. but what is certain is that the secular community treats the religious community FAR better than the religious community treated non believers and atheists when they were in charge.
to sum it up, who cares what religious people feel about it :P they are the ones believing in weird stuff
I can not be religious, take physicists word for it on a bunch of unprovable theories elaborating on a 50 year old school of thought and that would be the current scientific field.
I could believe in evolution only able to be captured in sporadic changes based on the small population at many point in history of organisms that survived chaotic earth changes (gaps in many parts of several fossil records etc)
I could believe that we are currently very pissibly creating universes or multiverses accidentally by splitting and colliding particles in particle colliders...
But its crazy to think that the big bang could have resulted from another being...
Christianity is more than provably bullshit, as is most religion... But lets not for a second consider that spirituals and the religious are automatically the silly ones
A pair of nasties ya be, going out of your way to deny a divine entity and insult those that accept him
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Yogi1
Squatchin
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: R4V4N4]
#18863209 - 09/19/13 01:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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You've gotta be kidding.
Here' I'll post some reasons why Christianity is BS... Its founded by a political body that destroyed half of its own books so there would be contradiction to its selected canon... Jesus is an obvious re tracing of several pre dating sons of god, Horus, Krishna... The Catholic churches practice of confession is a bullshit dark age originated swindle of the old serfs because back in those days you had to pay to confess and confession was mandatory to avoid hellfire... HOWEVER, you can get a direct pass into heaven via "Indulgence" aka paying a large sum of money to the head church located in the Vatican....
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R4V4N4
Stranger



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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: Yogi1]
#18863334 - 09/19/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yogi1 said: You've gotta be kidding.
Here' I'll post some reasons why Christianity is BS... Its founded by a political body that destroyed half of its own books so there would be contradiction to its selected canon... Jesus is an obvious re tracing of several pre dating sons of god, Horus, Krishna... The Catholic churches practice of confession is a bullshit dark age originated swindle of the old serfs because back in those days you had to pay to confess and confession was mandatory to avoid hellfire... HOWEVER, you can get a direct pass into heaven via "Indulgence" aka paying a large sum of money to the head church located in the Vatican.... 
It is you that must be kidding. It was not founded by a political body it was founded by Jesus. After all the real Christians were persecuted to death there were the Catholic, the Kalysti, and the Gnostic. The dead sea scrolls show that the bible has not changed much.
"Jesus is an obvious re tracing of several pre dating sons of god, Horus, Krishna..."
You actually believe that? Ok I see some resemblance if talking about some minor resemblance to Krishna in some of his past times, Mithra based on his birthday but no where in the bible does it say Jesus was born in December and it actually indicates another season all together. Vague coincidences have no baring on the existence of Jesus. You are following silly ideas that Acharya S, Egyptologists, and others have promoted to get attention and sell books. What the catholic church does or has done has no baring on the existence of Jesus.
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Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
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Re: Do you guys have negative views of atheists and skeptics? [Re: R4V4N4]
#18863719 - 09/19/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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R4V4N4 said:
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Yogi1 said: You've gotta be kidding.
Here' I'll post some reasons why Christianity is BS... Its founded by a political body that destroyed half of its own books so there would be contradiction to its selected canon... Jesus is an obvious re tracing of several pre dating sons of god, Horus, Krishna... The Catholic churches practice of confession is a bullshit dark age originated swindle of the old serfs because back in those days you had to pay to confess and confession was mandatory to avoid hellfire... HOWEVER, you can get a direct pass into heaven via "Indulgence" aka paying a large sum of money to the head church located in the Vatican.... 
It is you that must be kidding. It was not founded by a political body it was founded by Jesus. After all the real Christians were persecuted to death there were the Catholic, the Kalysti, and the Gnostic. The dead sea scrolls show that the bible has not changed much.
"Jesus is an obvious re tracing of several pre dating sons of god, Horus, Krishna..."
You actually believe that? Ok I see some resemblance if talking about some minor resemblance to Krishna in some of his past times, Mithra based on his birthday but no where in the bible does it say Jesus was born in December and it actually indicates another season all together. Vague coincidences have no baring on the existence of Jesus. You are following silly ideas that Acharya S, Egyptologists, and others have promoted to get attention and sell books. What the catholic church does or has done has no baring on the existence of Jesus.
You have done nothing but prove my point, Jesus' life and works, the bible, and the church have huge distances between them. Chrisman is on the 25th, nothing in the bible as far as i'm aware states this as his birthday, but the church creates a holiday on the 25th celebrating the birth of jesus, this is a clear indoctrination of a pre Christian holiday, and now the moronic masses consider this his birthday.
I'm not following silly texts I've never read, I'm showing the bullshit that is the Catholic Church.
And as for the dead sea scrolls, I think you have some reading to do on them.
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