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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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GFCI problems
    #18862782 - 09/19/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I am remodeling my bathroom and I've had a problem with the wiring.  Specifically, the GFCI will not reset.  Here are the relevant facts.

1. The circuit to the GFCI is a home run of 12/3 romex on a 20 amp breaker. This romex/GFCI was already installed before the remodel.

2. Downstream of the GFCI, I installed a triple switch.  The switches are connected to: 1) Recessed lighting (four fixtures daisy chained), 2) A vanity light, and 3) an exhaust fan. All wiring is 12/3 romex.

3. The GFCI does NOT trip when nothing is connected to the load side of it, but it will trip if any of the following conditions are met: 1) The neutral of the recessed lighting is connected.  2) The common hot going to the triple switch is connected (even if all three switches are off)

I've tried to nail down the neutral issue by going fixture by fixture disconnecting the neutrals.  There is a particular run of romex that, when the neutral is connected, trips the GFCI, even though the other end of the romex is not connected to anything.  I've tested this run of romex, and there is no continuity between any of the three wires.

All in all, none of it makes any sense to me at this point.  I don't understand why connecting an off switch would trip the gfci...or connecting a disconnected piece of romex, but they do.

The problem is not the GFCI, since I've tried it with three separate GFCIs all of which exhibit the same issues.

Any suggestions?


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Edited by Enlil (09/19/13 12:19 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Enlil]
    #18862833 - 09/19/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

1. I would disconnect (at both ends) the romex between the GFCI and the first light. Use an ohm-meter to check the romex to see if it is perhaps damaged in some way, such as an installer that stapled through it.

2. While the wire is still disconnected, use your ohm-meter to verify that the ground wire is intact (has continuity). This will likely require an additional length of wire as meter leads are typically 2 - 3 ft long. Absent an additional piece of wire you could wire nut the lamp end (ground to nuetral) and then use your ohm-meter at the GFCI end.

3. I would not have hooked the lights to the protected side of the GFCI. Is there a reason you did so?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18862863 - 09/19/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

1. The romex between the GFCI and the first light is not damaged by staples.  I know because I'm the installer, and there are no staples yet.  In addition, that romex run is not an issue because if I disconnect the romex between the second and third fixtures, the GFCI does not trip.  I checked the romex between the 2nd and 3rd fixtures for continuity from end to end as well as any possible continuity between the conductors.  It all checked out.

2. see 1

3. Two of the fixtures are above the shower, and it is my understanding that such fixtures must be gfci protected.  Because the triple switch has a common hot, everything on the switch would have to be protected as well.

P.S.  ON 1, I'm just talking about neutrals here...not hot lines.  The neutral will trip the gfci without the hot even connected to the gfci.  The hot line to the common side of the switch will trip the gfci even if the switches are off.


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InvisibleMushouse
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Enlil]
    #18862867 - 09/19/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:

All in all, none of it makes any sense to me at this point.  I don't understand why connecting an off switch would trip the gfci...or connecting a disconnected piece of romex, but they do.

The problem is not the GFCI, since I've tried it with three separate GFCIs all of which exhibit the same issues.




The GFCI will trip when there is unequal flow of current between the black and white wire connected to the load side, and three separate devices have been tripping. Somewhere on whatever portions of the circuit you currently have connected, there is a ground fault; the current flowing on the two ends of the circuit line (the black and white wires) must be equal, or there is unaccounted for amps going to ground.

What is the absolute maximum amount of wiring that you can connect before it trips? Whatever portion you add when it trips is the culprit.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Mushouse]
    #18862874 - 09/19/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mushouse said:

What is the absolute maximum amount of wiring that you can connect before it trips? Whatever portion you add when it trips is the culprit.



This is why I'm having a problem.  Ignoring the hots for the purposes of this post...

When I connect the neutral of the romex between the 2nd and 3rd fixture, it trips...even with the other end of that romex connected to nothing.  The romex itself trips the gfci, but there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the romex.


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InvisibleMushouse
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Enlil]
    #18862904 - 09/19/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Take some spare wire, and run a temporary length between the 2nd and 3rd fixture to replace the questionable romex. If the replacement conductors solve the problem, you have your answer.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Mushouse]
    #18862922 - 09/19/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'll try swapping out that romex piece.  It's only 4 feet and easy to get to. 

I'm still confused how the hot wire is tripping, though.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Enlil]
    #18862948 - 09/19/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

A puzzle indeed. The symptoms would suggest that the neutral is in contact with the ground somewhere. As you state there are no staples... perhaps the second fixture has an issue. How much work would it be to swap fixtures 2 & 3 and the repeat your steps with the wire between them?

Have you tried a replacing the length of Romex between fixtures 2 and 3?

There's sometimes a maximum run length for the load side of GFCI's. I don't get the feeling from your description that this would be the issue though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleMushouse
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Enlil]
    #18862950 - 09/19/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The black and white wires are essentially the same wire of the circuit, and if even a minescule ammount of current is leaving the circuit the GFCI will trip.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Mushouse]
    #18862954 - 09/19/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mushouse said:
The black and white wires are essentially the same wire of the circuit, and if even a minescule ammount of current is leaving the circuit the GFCI will trip.




Exactly.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18862959 - 09/19/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm gonna swap out the romex tonight.  Swapping the fixtures would be much less fun. 

The total run of that particular circuit might be 25 feet after the GFCI.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Enlil]
    #18862996 - 09/19/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

25 feet wouldn't do it.

Try bypassing the 2nd fixture and then connect the 3rd. Wire nuts in the box of the 2nd fixture would suffice.

Also, consider trying a different brand GFCI. If your buying the same ones from the same store there could be an issue with the entire lot, though that would be an odd occurrence.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: GFCI problems [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18883045 - 09/23/13 11:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

why are you using 12/3? What is the red wire doing. Some poorly made fixtures and switches have current to ground. Either way, you should forget about protecting lighting circuits with gfi's. Go ahead and splice the circuit through inside the box with the gfi and call it done. Nothing on the load side of the gfi unless it's a plug. Period. Further more, I  wouldn't be too worried about the one run of romex causing issues as long as you have ~0 ohms on the neutral going back to the panel. A little current going to ground off the neutral isn't going to hurt anybody. Its when you have the full load of the neutral going to ground that you risk any kind of heat buildup/fire due to a loose or subpar connection.

I hope all that makes sense. Its 1:30 in the morning and I have no business being awake. Especially for the same shit I get to go do in a few hours anyway. But yeah, get that shit off the gfi. There's just no point.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: Big_Dave]
    #18892829 - 09/26/13 06:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: GFCI problems [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18892842 - 09/26/13 06:50 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I haven't had a chance to deal with it yet.  Things got ugly when I took the tub out and I had to rip out the rotted subfloor and replace it, along with the rotted window frame.  Wiring has taken a back seat for the moment.  It's the only bathroom, so getting a toilet working again was highest priority followed by a shower.

I'll get back to the wiring today or tomorrow, hopefully.


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