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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders
#18861878 - 09/19/13 07:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am very excited about this opportunity and the chance to share what I have learned about the spiritual path with a small group of young souls.
I believe that there is a lot I can teach these kids if I can figure out a way to present the information in such a way that it is absorbable to them. I made many mistakes in my own life that resulted in great suffering, so if I could save just one of these youngsters from going through what I have had to go through, my time will be well spent. The main thing that I want to convey is that our culture has a general misunderstanding of the causes of happiness and trying to obtain happiness without understanding its causes, leads to at best dissatisfaction and at worst unrelenting unbearable suffering.
The main advantage of the church is that it teaches an alternative path to follow in life, an alternative guide to finding happiness that differs considerably from the ideas so prevalent in our culture which associates happiness with wealth, power, prestige, luxury and sensual pleasure, all of which pass away. This was the missing link in my life. I was happy as a child, at peace with myself while out in nature, exploring plants and animals and observing life in all its manifestations. It was only once I absorbed the mindset of my culture, that I became miserable. Jesus Christ came to bare witness to the truth, so that we could learn the truth and the truth could set us free.
So anyway, I am looking for advice on how best to teach these kids. Feel free to post whatever kind of advice you like, whether it be general advice or suggestions on specific things or activities/games to play with the kids in order to make things more fun and interesting for them or ways to keep them engaged.
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18861943 - 09/19/13 08:21 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Seriously?? What kind of backward society are we living in?? Religious education should include a variety of different belief systems, and kids should be allowed to discuss their thoughts and ideas on these different concepts and ideas.
This is just brainwashing - pure and simple. We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
Edited by PocketLady (09/19/13 08:22 AM)
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Kinko
Stranger



Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 3,024
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate] 2
#18861953 - 09/19/13 08:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I am very excited about this opportunity and the chance to share what I have learned about the spiritual path with a small group of young souls.
I believe that there is a lot I can teach these kids if I can figure out a way to present the information in such a way that it is absorbable to them. I made many mistakes in my own life that resulted in great suffering, so if I could save just one of these youngsters from going through what I have had to go through, my time will be well spent. The main thing that I want to convey is that our culture has a general misunderstanding of the causes of happiness and trying to obtain happiness without understanding its causes, leads to at best dissatisfaction and at worst unrelenting unbearable suffering.
The main advantage of the church is that it teaches an alternative path to follow in life, an alternative guide to finding happiness that differs considerably from the ideas so prevalent in our culture which associates happiness with wealth, power, prestige, luxury and sensual pleasure, all of which pass away. This was the missing link in my life. I was happy as a child, at peace with myself while out in nature, exploring plants and animals and observing life in all its manifestations. It was only once I absorbed the mindset of my culture, that I became miserable. Jesus Christ came to bare witness to the truth, so that we could learn the truth and the truth could set us free.
So anyway, I am looking for advice on how best to teach these kids. Feel free to post whatever kind of advice you like, whether it be general advice or suggestions on specific things or activities/games to play with the kids in order to make things more fun and interesting for them or ways to keep them engaged.
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
hopefully some of the kids will know better than to believe anything coming out of your mouth.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18861992 - 09/19/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said: We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
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Old Pokey
Stranger and Stranger



Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 278
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18861994 - 09/19/13 08:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
and I didn't even see a logic course listing until university.
-------------------- It's all mythology...
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Old Pokey]
#18862067 - 09/19/13 09:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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A course in logic is not necessary. Just teachers who encourage real thought.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Kinko]
#18862120 - 09/19/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kinko said:
Quote:
Deviate said: I am very excited about this opportunity and the chance to share what I have learned about the spiritual path with a small group of young souls.
I believe that there is a lot I can teach these kids if I can figure out a way to present the information in such a way that it is absorbable to them. I made many mistakes in my own life that resulted in great suffering, so if I could save just one of these youngsters from going through what I have had to go through, my time will be well spent. The main thing that I want to convey is that our culture has a general misunderstanding of the causes of happiness and trying to obtain happiness without understanding its causes, leads to at best dissatisfaction and at worst unrelenting unbearable suffering.
The main advantage of the church is that it teaches an alternative path to follow in life, an alternative guide to finding happiness that differs considerably from the ideas so prevalent in our culture which associates happiness with wealth, power, prestige, luxury and sensual pleasure, all of which pass away. This was the missing link in my life. I was happy as a child, at peace with myself while out in nature, exploring plants and animals and observing life in all its manifestations. It was only once I absorbed the mindset of my culture, that I became miserable. Jesus Christ came to bare witness to the truth, so that we could learn the truth and the truth could set us free.
So anyway, I am looking for advice on how best to teach these kids. Feel free to post whatever kind of advice you like, whether it be general advice or suggestions on specific things or activities/games to play with the kids in order to make things more fun and interesting for them or ways to keep them engaged.
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
hopefully some of the kids will know better than to believe anything coming out of your mouth.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Psilopsychosis



Registered: 07/06/13
Posts: 717
Loc:
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18862763 - 09/19/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Seriously?? What kind of backward society are we living in?? Religious education should include a variety of different belief systems, and kids should be allowed to discuss their thoughts and ideas on these different concepts and ideas.
This is just brainwashing - pure and simple. We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
Is this Ontario, deviate?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18862824 - 09/19/13 12:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Obviously, the kids are Catholic kids, in Catholic school. My wife questioned the nuns and she was told that certain things must simply be believed. That did not satisfy her, but it was her choice to take intellectual leave of catechism classes. You cannot apply free-thinking to a parochial education. The parents of those students would not have placed their kids in a parochial school unless they wanted them to become Catholics, and it is not the role of a teacher in such a situation to interfere with that process. The level that you are talking about is college. Public schools are not the venue for that kind of discussion either. I just retired from 27 years as a crisis intervention specialist in the 4th largest school system in the country, and the only time I engaged kids on religion, was around the issue of death and dying. I stayed within each kids own religious framework if there was one, and never came under any fire from angry parents. But a friend of mine simply had a Buddhist text on his desk. One of his students inquired about the image of the meditating Buddha on the cover. He did not elaborate, he only said it was about the Buddhist religion. The next morning he was called to the principal's office to answer to some moronic parent about how religion was solely their province. It was fucked up. He didn't teach or preach anything! If you work with kids, it is imperative to know the ground rules if one plans on remaining at that post.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Old Pokey]
#18862838 - 09/19/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Old Pokey said:
Quote:
We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
and I didn't even see a logic course listing until university.
Algebra 1 is supposed to determine if a child has attained to Formal Operational Thinking, according to the developmental scheme of Jean Piaget. Formal Operations entails logical processes. The huge school system I was employed in did focus on critical thinking skills, which were incorporated into all curriculum areas, but nobody is gonna teach Boolian algebra til college.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 18 hours
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18862902 - 09/19/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I am very excited about this opportunity and the chance to share what I have learned about the spiritual path with a small group of young souls.
I believe that there is a lot I can teach these kids if I can figure out a way to present the information in such a way that it is absorbable to them. I made many mistakes in my own life that resulted in great suffering, so if I could save just one of these youngsters from going through what I have had to go through, my time will be well spent. The main thing that I want to convey is that our culture has a general misunderstanding of the causes of happiness and trying to obtain happiness without understanding its causes, leads to at best dissatisfaction and at worst unrelenting unbearable suffering.
The main advantage of the church is that it teaches an alternative path to follow in life, an alternative guide to finding happiness that differs considerably from the ideas so prevalent in our culture which associates happiness with wealth, power, prestige, luxury and sensual pleasure, all of which pass away. This was the missing link in my life. I was happy as a child, at peace with myself while out in nature, exploring plants and animals and observing life in all its manifestations. It was only once I absorbed the mindset of my culture, that I became miserable. Jesus Christ came to bare witness to the truth, so that we could learn the truth and the truth could set us free.
So anyway, I am looking for advice on how best to teach these kids. Feel free to post whatever kind of advice you like, whether it be general advice or suggestions on specific things or activities/games to play with the kids in order to make things more fun and interesting for them or ways to keep them engaged.
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
No offense but I feel sorry for them.
-------------------- ...or something
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Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18862949 - 09/19/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Seriously?? What kind of backward society are we living in?? Religious education should include a variety of different belief systems, and kids should be allowed to discuss their thoughts and ideas on these different concepts and ideas.
This is just brainwashing - pure and simple. We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
I live in the midwest.... I am agnostic.... I had a close friend and their mother told them that I had to become a christian and go to church to be friends.... I did not do that, I banged her, and now she's an atheist.... I must have been a bad apple...
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Old Pokey
Stranger and Stranger



Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 278
Loc: right here
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18863263 - 09/19/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Old Pokey said:
Quote:
We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
and I didn't even see a logic course listing until university.
Algebra 1 is supposed to determine if a child has attained to Formal Operational Thinking, according to the developmental scheme of Jean Piaget. Formal Operations entails logical processes. The huge school system I was employed in did focus on critical thinking skills, which were incorporated into all curriculum areas, but nobody is gonna teach Boolian algebra til college.
None of my 3 algebra teachers in public school ever emphasized application of this mathematical scheme to critical thinking.
Syllogistic logic should be taught right along side 2 + 2.
-------------------- It's all mythology...
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18863371 - 09/19/13 02:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Seriously?? What kind of backward society are we living in?? Religious education should include a variety of different belief systems, and kids should be allowed to discuss their thoughts and ideas on these different concepts and ideas.
This is just brainwashing - pure and simple. We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
It's religious education for catholic kids, obviously, not a class on religion.
You can say it's brainwashing but that is realy just your opinion. You are aware that the entire public school education process could be considered brainwashing. I fail to see how this is different. Regardless of what I do, these children are going to grow up with the values and belief systems passed onto them by their parents, teachers, relatives and society at large. That's just the way it is. Thats why I like psychedelics, I think they help faciliate culteral detox.
The value I see in teaching religion is that it gives me the oppurtinity to instill in these kids a better value system than the values they would pick up were they to grow up on MTV and uh, whatever is popular among youth culture these days. I am going to try to teach them to value righteousness and virtue, kindness and compassion, generosity and forgiveness and fairness and equality instead of success, money, prestige and pleasure which is what our society values. If you think this is a bad thing, I am afraid our value systems are opposite each other.
Anyway, I made this post to give YOU folks the opportunity to give YOUR OWN input on what I can teach these kids to hopefully better their lives and so far none of you have given me any suggestions. So its a bit hypocritical to criticize me when you haven't given a single suggestion on how I could teach these children to think critically, or whatever it is you think they should be learning.
Remember, they would be in REL ED regardless of whether I was their teacher and I am probably the only teacher actually willing to listen to and consider the opinions of non catholics in forming my lesson plans.
Edited by Deviate (09/19/13 02:52 PM)
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
#18863388 - 09/19/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said:
Quote:
Deviate said: I am very excited about this opportunity and the chance to share what I have learned about the spiritual path with a small group of young souls.
I believe that there is a lot I can teach these kids if I can figure out a way to present the information in such a way that it is absorbable to them. I made many mistakes in my own life that resulted in great suffering, so if I could save just one of these youngsters from going through what I have had to go through, my time will be well spent. The main thing that I want to convey is that our culture has a general misunderstanding of the causes of happiness and trying to obtain happiness without understanding its causes, leads to at best dissatisfaction and at worst unrelenting unbearable suffering.
The main advantage of the church is that it teaches an alternative path to follow in life, an alternative guide to finding happiness that differs considerably from the ideas so prevalent in our culture which associates happiness with wealth, power, prestige, luxury and sensual pleasure, all of which pass away. This was the missing link in my life. I was happy as a child, at peace with myself while out in nature, exploring plants and animals and observing life in all its manifestations. It was only once I absorbed the mindset of my culture, that I became miserable. Jesus Christ came to bare witness to the truth, so that we could learn the truth and the truth could set us free.
So anyway, I am looking for advice on how best to teach these kids. Feel free to post whatever kind of advice you like, whether it be general advice or suggestions on specific things or activities/games to play with the kids in order to make things more fun and interesting for them or ways to keep them engaged.
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
No offense but I feel sorry for them.
Why? Because they are in religious education or because I am their teacher? If the latter, I question why you think they would be better off with someone else, who would probably be a lot less likely to be willing to even listen to the opinions of non catholics not to mention the fact that you barely know me and have no means by which to judge my teaching ability.
Therefore, it seems to me that although you attempted to disguise your intent with the phrase "no offense" your comment was meant to do nothing other than to offend.
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Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18863652 - 09/19/13 04:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dont be real offended, its just that you can do as much good helping Catholic brainwashed kids as you can helping drug addicts by becoming a DEA officer.
I think you could help shape perceptions by giving multiple perspectives of the same limited dogma, but I wouldnt think that its a job worth doing.
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18863654 - 09/19/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Obviously, the kids are Catholic kids, in Catholic school. My wife questioned the nuns and she was told that certain things must simply be believed. That did not satisfy her, but it was her choice to take intellectual leave of catechism classes. You cannot apply free-thinking to a parochial education. The parents of those students would not have placed their kids in a parochial school unless they wanted them to become Catholics, and it is not the role of a teacher in such a situation to interfere with that process. The level that you are talking about is college. Public schools are not the venue for that kind of discussion either. I just retired from 27 years as a crisis intervention specialist in the 4th largest school system in the country, and the only time I engaged kids on religion, was around the issue of death and dying. I stayed within each kids own religious framework if there was one, and never came under any fire from angry parents. But a friend of mine simply had a Buddhist text on his desk. One of his students inquired about the image of the meditating Buddha on the cover. He did not elaborate, he only said it was about the Buddhist religion. The next morning he was called to the principal's office to answer to some moronic parent about how religion was solely their province. It was fucked up. He didn't teach or preach anything! If you work with kids, it is imperative to know the ground rules if one plans on remaining at that post.
It's absolute madness, and it seems the ground rules vary massively depending on the educational establishment. The situation in non-denominational schools in the UK is that the teacher should refrain from imposing their own religious and political views on students.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18863682 - 09/19/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
PocketLady said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Seriously?? What kind of backward society are we living in?? Religious education should include a variety of different belief systems, and kids should be allowed to discuss their thoughts and ideas on these different concepts and ideas.
This is just brainwashing - pure and simple. We shouldn't be teaching kids what to think, but HOW to think, so they can make rational and informed decisions.
It's religious education for catholic kids, obviously, not a class on religion.
You can say it's brainwashing but that is realy just your opinion. You are aware that the entire public school education process could be considered brainwashing. I fail to see how this is different. Regardless of what I do, these children are going to grow up with the values and belief systems passed onto them by their parents, teachers, relatives and society at large. That's just the way it is. Thats why I like psychedelics, I think they help faciliate culteral detox.
The value I see in teaching religion is that it gives me the oppurtinity to instill in these kids a better value system than the values they would pick up were they to grow up on MTV and uh, whatever is popular among youth culture these days. I am going to try to teach them to value righteousness and virtue, kindness and compassion, generosity and forgiveness and fairness and equality instead of success, money, prestige and pleasure which is what our society values. If you think this is a bad thing, I am afraid our value systems are opposite each other.
Anyway, I made this post to give YOU folks the opportunity to give YOUR OWN input on what I can teach these kids to hopefully better their lives and so far none of you have given me any suggestions. So its a bit hypocritical to criticize me when you haven't given a single suggestion on how I could teach these children to think critically, or whatever it is you think they should be learning.
Remember, they would be in REL ED regardless of whether I was their teacher and I am probably the only teacher actually willing to listen to and consider the opinions of non catholics in forming my lesson plans.
I'm not having a go at you Deviate, just the crazy system whereby kids are brought up only hearing one side of the system. I agree with 90% of Christian values. I just don't agree with the hypocrisy of the incredibly wealthy and powerful Catholic Church, or that there is anything good out there that actually wants worshipping.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18863759 - 09/19/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Obviously, the kids are Catholic kids, in Catholic school. My wife questioned the nuns and she was told that certain things must simply be believed. That did not satisfy her, but it was her choice to take intellectual leave of catechism classes. You cannot apply free-thinking to a parochial education. The parents of those students would not have placed their kids in a parochial school unless they wanted them to become Catholics, and it is not the role of a teacher in such a situation to interfere with that process. The level that you are talking about is college. Public schools are not the venue for that kind of discussion either. I just retired from 27 years as a crisis intervention specialist in the 4th largest school system in the country, and the only time I engaged kids on religion, was around the issue of death and dying. I stayed within each kids own religious framework if there was one, and never came under any fire from angry parents. But a friend of mine simply had a Buddhist text on his desk. One of his students inquired about the image of the meditating Buddha on the cover. He did not elaborate, he only said it was about the Buddhist religion. The next morning he was called to the principal's office to answer to some moronic parent about how religion was solely their province. It was fucked up. He didn't teach or preach anything! If you work with kids, it is imperative to know the ground rules if one plans on remaining at that post.
It's absolute madness, and it seems the ground rules vary massively depending on the educational establishment. The situation in non-denominational schools in the UK is that the teacher should refrain from imposing their own religious and political views on students.
America is much different, in the midwest of America there is a thing called bible study that exists in public schooling of all kinds until highschool. A trailer parks outside your school and you have to sign a paper saying that you want to go attend bible study or else you are stuck in the library doing shit busy work and in my case I got scolded by my teacher until I got my parent signature.
Why, might you euros ask, is bible study allowed and heavily encouraged in a PUBLIC school system? Well let me explain. The trailer is outside the building, so technically its not your school teaching you christianity, no, even though its during SCHOOL HOURS, and on SCHOOL PROPERTY....
Welcome to 'Murica
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LifeBoy
Blazing Color


Registered: 04/10/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Here
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18863897 - 09/19/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nice, Deviate!
I don't have any ideas for games or activities. If you speak from the heart, and your message will resonate with the students.
Peace!
-------------------- John 4:14 - but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” - Jesus Christ "People think love is an emotion. Love is good sense." - Ken Kesey If you get confused, listen to the music play! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E5JkPMB2DY[/url] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QTPndsG_KA4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6bM4XfqRRQ
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18864223 - 09/19/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yogi1 said: Dont be real offended, its just that you can do as much good helping Catholic brainwashed kids as you can helping drug addicts by becoming a DEA officer.
I wasn't offended until you made that stupid comment. How is teaching kids good values in any way like becoming a DEA officer? You know what, nevermind. I didn't make this thread to ask whether or not I should do this, I asked for imput on how to go about it. If you don't have any, then I would appreciate it you would kindly keep your mouth shut. Why is everyone so judgemental?
Quote:
I think you could help shape perceptions by giving multiple perspectives of the same limited dogma, but I wouldnt think that its a job worth doing.
I think its funny how on this SPIRITUALITY and MYSTICISM forum, no one sees any value in teaching children good values, or how to pray or the goodness of God.
I thought that this forum was made specifically for people who felt it was alright to believe in such things. I'm not saying you must agree with me to post here, but I did think that the idea behind this forum was to create a place where it was alright to be religious, where it was alright to believe in mysticism and where you wouldn't have to deal with endless hostility for expressing those views.
Edited by Deviate (09/19/13 06:28 PM)
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Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18864324 - 09/19/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dont forget to teach them about a talking snake and that there is a man in the sky that created the universe in 6 days and rested on the sabbath.... also sex is bad before marriage and its sinful to use protection, despite how much debt you may accrue and whether or not that may affect clothing and feeding said children.

Teach them that.
Also gay people are going to hell. The old testiment also teaches that unfinned seafood is sinful and dressing in clothing made of more than one material is sinful...
Is the old testiment part of their belief system because I would love to post some leviticus and scripture on the subject of slavery...
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18864377 - 09/19/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yogi1 said: Dont forget to teach them about a talking snake and that there is a man in the sky that created the universe in 6 days and rested on the sabbath.... also sex is bad before marriage and its sinful to use protection, despite how much debt you may accrue and whether or not that may affect clothing and feeding said children.

Teach them that.
Also gay people are going to hell. The old testiment also teaches that unfinned seafood is sinful and dressing in clothing made of more than one material is sinful...
Is the old testiment part of their belief system because I would love to post some leviticus and scripture on the subject of slavery...
Ok I get the message. You are hostile to religion. The thing is, does it look I made this thread to debate the merits of religion?
Edited by Deviate (09/19/13 06:35 PM)
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Yogi1
Squatchin
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Kinko]
#18864380 - 09/19/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kinko said:
Quote:
Deviate said: I am very excited about this opportunity and the chance to share what I have learned about the spiritual path with a small group of young souls.
I believe that there is a lot I can teach these kids if I can figure out a way to present the information in such a way that it is absorbable to them. I made many mistakes in my own life that resulted in great suffering, so if I could save just one of these youngsters from going through what I have had to go through, my time will be well spent. The main thing that I want to convey is that our culture has a general misunderstanding of the causes of happiness and trying to obtain happiness without understanding its causes, leads to at best dissatisfaction and at worst unrelenting unbearable suffering.
The main advantage of the church is that it teaches an alternative path to follow in life, an alternative guide to finding happiness that differs considerably from the ideas so prevalent in our culture which associates happiness with wealth, power, prestige, luxury and sensual pleasure, all of which pass away. This was the missing link in my life. I was happy as a child, at peace with myself while out in nature, exploring plants and animals and observing life in all its manifestations. It was only once I absorbed the mindset of my culture, that I became miserable. Jesus Christ came to bare witness to the truth, so that we could learn the truth and the truth could set us free.
So anyway, I am looking for advice on how best to teach these kids. Feel free to post whatever kind of advice you like, whether it be general advice or suggestions on specific things or activities/games to play with the kids in order to make things more fun and interesting for them or ways to keep them engaged.
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
hopefully some of the kids will know better than to believe anything coming out of your mouth.

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Yogi1
Squatchin
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18864390 - 09/19/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Yogi1 said: Dont forget to teach them about a talking snake and that there is a man in the sky that created the universe in 6 days and rested on the sabbath.... also sex is bad before marriage and its sinful to use protection, despite how much debt you may accrue and whether or not that may affect clothing and feeding said children.

Teach them that.
Also gay people are going to hell. The old testiment also teaches that unfinned seafood is sinful and dressing in clothing made of more than one material is sinful...
Is the old testiment part of their belief system because I would love to post some leviticus and scripture on the subject of slavery...
Ok I get the message. You are hostile to religion. The thing is, does it look I made this thread to debate the merits of religion?
I gave you a legit idea for how to potentially actually make a difference. I'm hostile toward people being hostile toward me. Be hostile again and I'll start posting the parts of the bible christians like to skip over when indoctrinating children like god turning someone into salt for looking backwards.
--------------------
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18864404 - 09/19/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I guess the idea of having a forum where it's alright to believe in spiritual and mystical things is a lost cause. Maybe we should change this to be called the atheists and skeptics lounge.
Since you all know so much better than me what children should be learning, why dont you tell me what value system they should be raised with. What if any education should they be given regarding spirituality and mysticism? What if their parents specifically want their children to be taught the ancient wisdom from a particular culture, how to pray and things like that?
Please explain your value system in which it is wrong to teach these things. It's very easy to tear other peoples ideas down, it's a lot harder to present a coherent alternative for how everything should be run.
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18864415 - 09/19/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yogi1 said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Yogi1 said: Dont forget to teach them about a talking snake and that there is a man in the sky that created the universe in 6 days and rested on the sabbath.... also sex is bad before marriage and its sinful to use protection, despite how much debt you may accrue and whether or not that may affect clothing and feeding said children.

Teach them that.
Also gay people are going to hell. The old testiment also teaches that unfinned seafood is sinful and dressing in clothing made of more than one material is sinful...
Is the old testiment part of their belief system because I would love to post some leviticus and scripture on the subject of slavery...
Ok I get the message. You are hostile to religion. The thing is, does it look I made this thread to debate the merits of religion?
I gave you a legit idea for how to potentially actually make a difference. I'm hostile toward people being hostile toward me. Be hostile again and I'll start posting the parts of the bible christians like to skip over when indoctrinating children like god turning someone into salt for looking backwards.
No, you told me it wasn't even worth doing.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18864589 - 09/19/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's absolute madness, and it seems the ground rules vary massively depending on the educational establishment. The situation in non-denominational schools in the UK is that the teacher should refrain from imposing their own religious and political views on students.
One cannot push these things in the US public school system either, but he's talking about a Catholic parochial school where Catholic parents produce Catholic children, and school them accordingly. Hey, everybody has to be something, and if an individual wants to throw off the religion of their parents, or their secular humanism, agnosticism, or atheism in order to Awaken from whatever programming they had been subjected to, they will. I was positively influenced by two Catholic families as a young reformed Jewish kid, and took baptism in the church that both families attended. I went on to study in a Methodist seminary, and it was years and years until I rediscovered some value to Judaism via Kabbalah. I still light candles on the Sabbath, although I am not ruled by the Sabbath like an extremist Orthodox Jew, but I remain master of it as the biblical Jesus taught. Nevertheless, I am a heretic to mainstream Christians, and an apostate to mainstream Jews, so I am not waving any religious banners here. I have practiced and studied Hindu and Buddhist Yogas since 1973, and remain an esotericist of no particular stripe. People see what they see. Some note my sir name and send me a Hannukah card. Others read other stuff in me and send me a Christmas card. The nicest thing I can receive is a hit of acid.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Spacerific
- - - >


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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18864615 - 09/19/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Show this video in class, and try to intelligently discuss it.
I don't doubt the kids' ability to discuss it intelligently, I doubt this ability of anybody that's put there to "teach religion".
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18864661 - 09/19/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
eve69 said:
Quote:
Deviate said: I am very excited about this opportunity and the chance to share what I have learned about the spiritual path with a small group of young souls.
I believe that there is a lot I can teach these kids if I can figure out a way to present the information in such a way that it is absorbable to them. I made many mistakes in my own life that resulted in great suffering, so if I could save just one of these youngsters from going through what I have had to go through, my time will be well spent. The main thing that I want to convey is that our culture has a general misunderstanding of the causes of happiness and trying to obtain happiness without understanding its causes, leads to at best dissatisfaction and at worst unrelenting unbearable suffering.
The main advantage of the church is that it teaches an alternative path to follow in life, an alternative guide to finding happiness that differs considerably from the ideas so prevalent in our culture which associates happiness with wealth, power, prestige, luxury and sensual pleasure, all of which pass away. This was the missing link in my life. I was happy as a child, at peace with myself while out in nature, exploring plants and animals and observing life in all its manifestations. It was only once I absorbed the mindset of my culture, that I became miserable. Jesus Christ came to bare witness to the truth, so that we could learn the truth and the truth could set us free.
So anyway, I am looking for advice on how best to teach these kids. Feel free to post whatever kind of advice you like, whether it be general advice or suggestions on specific things or activities/games to play with the kids in order to make things more fun and interesting for them or ways to keep them engaged.
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
No offense but I feel sorry for them.
Why? Because they are in religious education or because I am their teacher? If the latter, I question why you think they would be better off with someone else, who would probably be a lot less likely to be willing to even listen to the opinions of non catholics not to mention the fact that you barely know me and have no means by which to judge my teaching ability.
Therefore, it seems to me that although you attempted to disguise your intent with the phrase "no offense" your comment was meant to do nothing other than to offend.
Why because you're one of the most fucking hard headed know it all linear thinking motherfuckers at S&M
-------------------- ...or something
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18864774 - 09/19/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I guess the idea of having a forum where it's alright to believe in spiritual and mystical things is a lost cause. Maybe we should change this to be called the atheists and skeptics lounge.
Since you all know so much better than me what children should be learning, why dont you tell me what value system they should be raised with. What if any education should they be given regarding spirituality and mysticism? What if their parents specifically want their children to be taught the ancient wisdom from a particular culture, how to pray and things like that?
Please explain your value system in which it is wrong to teach these things. It's very easy to tear other peoples ideas down, it's a lot harder to present a coherent alternative for how everything should be run.
Humanitarianism
You can say and believe any fucking thing you want but there only one truth I know
there aren't religions, there are people.
Religions forget that, and then you have a bunch of fools all acting like they're defending God. Fucking big -as if.-
God doesn't need you or anyone else to act all fucking holy.
But holier than any religious person is someone who really cares from deep within, and who is willing to go the distance for others.
It's the small things. The small things. Don't teach a bunch of specious shit and then not give the poor boy a ride home (AND NOT ON YOUR LAP)
-------------------- ...or something
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
#18865500 - 09/19/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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And I apologize if I was hostile to you. It was nothing personal, I did mean to direct my comments at you really. I was just expressing my frustration with this forum, because I thought it was supposed to be a place where a person could express spiritual beliefs without having them being attacked, scruitinized and made fun of all day.
It's not that I am afraid of being challenged, (although it that were the case I dont see why it would change anything) but the truth is I have spent countless hours of my time debating spiritual topics with sceptics, atheists and agnostics and I eventually grew tired of it. If atheists had their way, I would be on the interet 24/7 defending spiritual beliefs. There is absolutely no limit to the ways in which a belief system can be attacked and to expect me to have to justify an entire belief system in every single thread is absolutely absurd.
Why not just ignore the atheists? well I could do that if it didn't seem like every single response was from an atheist. So yogi when you make comments like gay people are going to hell (even though the church doesn't teach that) all you're doing is repeating things I have before ad nauseam already. Quote:
eve69 said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
eve69 said:
Quote:
Deviate said: I am very excited about this opportunity and the chance to share what I have learned about the spiritual path with a small group of young souls.
I believe that there is a lot I can teach these kids if I can figure out a way to present the information in such a way that it is absorbable to them. I made many mistakes in my own life that resulted in great suffering, so if I could save just one of these youngsters from going through what I have had to go through, my time will be well spent. The main thing that I want to convey is that our culture has a general misunderstanding of the causes of happiness and trying to obtain happiness without understanding its causes, leads to at best dissatisfaction and at worst unrelenting unbearable suffering.
The main advantage of the church is that it teaches an alternative path to follow in life, an alternative guide to finding happiness that differs considerably from the ideas so prevalent in our culture which associates happiness with wealth, power, prestige, luxury and sensual pleasure, all of which pass away. This was the missing link in my life. I was happy as a child, at peace with myself while out in nature, exploring plants and animals and observing life in all its manifestations. It was only once I absorbed the mindset of my culture, that I became miserable. Jesus Christ came to bare witness to the truth, so that we could learn the truth and the truth could set us free.
So anyway, I am looking for advice on how best to teach these kids. Feel free to post whatever kind of advice you like, whether it be general advice or suggestions on specific things or activities/games to play with the kids in order to make things more fun and interesting for them or ways to keep them engaged.
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
No offense but I feel sorry for them.
Why? Because they are in religious education or because I am their teacher? If the latter, I question why you think they would be better off with someone else, who would probably be a lot less likely to be willing to even listen to the opinions of non catholics not to mention the fact that you barely know me and have no means by which to judge my teaching ability.
Therefore, it seems to me that although you attempted to disguise your intent with the phrase "no offense" your comment was meant to do nothing other than to offend.
Why because you're one of the most fucking hard headed know it all linear thinking motherfuckers at S&M
Yes I'm hard headed, it has its pluses and minuses.
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Kickle
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18865532 - 09/19/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I think its funny how on this SPIRITUALITY and MYSTICISM forum, no one sees any value in teaching children good values, or how to pray or the goodness of God.
I thought that this forum was made specifically for people who felt it was alright to believe in such things. I'm not saying you must agree with me to post here, but I did think that the idea behind this forum was to create a place where it was alright to be religious, where it was alright to believe in mysticism and where you wouldn't have to deal with endless hostility for expressing those views.
I take spirituality and mysticism quite seriously. Maybe too seriously. When I think of these things I picture someone who wants to go beyond the everyday. And that's why I'm generally VERY lenient with what is posted so long as it fits the s&m theme. I figure any drama is utterly every day. People bicker over ideas in every corner of life I have ever seen. And I find it for the most part terribly boring and not woth investing anything in to. Not to mention futile to try and stop. There is no moderator, who through banning, has then been able to stop banning or locking threads.
Id much rather see posters in this forum who don't get shaken up by the everyday drama of differing views. And not just because it makes my job easier. But because of what it suggests about their emotional stability in some very positive ways. IMO one of the few signs of a functioning spiritual life. I do however understand that all of us have limits and someone should be able to step in when it starts becoming too personal or just flat out tiresome and we are no longer aside from but rather entangled in negativity. I do get that. Any time I sense myself heading that way I try to walk away because there is no fall back for a mod.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that this forum is here for you. And I try to encourage an environment that doesn't overly coddle but if you need a hand its here. I don't read every thread but I do check moderator notifications. If you feel posts are out of hand or even off-topic, hit the whistle and it will get looked at. Without that, I let the waves of the forum be waves. And I trust the posters here to ride those waves in a spiritual way to the best of their abilities.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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fivepointer
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18866229 - 09/20/13 04:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
How do you reconcile Catholic teachings that are opposed to scripture? Scripture warns not to follow the traditions of men, but the Word of God.
Catholic teachings opposed to scripture: Mary is sinless (Bible declares the only sinless one is Jesus) Assumption of Mary (Nowhere to be found in scripture) Forbidding to marry (Priests are forbidden to marry. Bible states elders should be married.) Abstaining from meats on certain days (All foods are to be enjoyed with thankfulness) Priests can forgive sin (Absurd) Purgatory (Not in scripture at all) Salvation by cooperative merit (Sinners have no merits, Jesus only saves sinners, those without merits) Sacramentalism- The Mass (Not in scripture, no church's actions can ever forgive a sin.) Baptismal regeneration (Not in scripture, no church's actions can ever forgive a sin.)
I could go on and on, but you get my point.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Posts: 3,910
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: fivepointer]
#18866242 - 09/20/13 05:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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This thread apparently is about Deviate wanting better advice about teaching children about rabbits with horns, pigs that can fly, and unicorns.
Deviate you've been at Shroomery for ten fucking years. Ignorance is no excuse. Don't get huffy. If you wanted pure Christian discourse you would go to Hipforums Christian Sanctuary.
You don't actually want discourse, you want people to -ooooo and aaaaa- about your great compassionate ability to raise new youths (into the same old fucking cognitive dissonance).
What you do will be no different from serving food in a cafeteria. You will be told emphatically what to do and nothing any creative - mystical - or spiritual type here says is going to make a shred of use.
I could go on - but you have deadf ears. I have seen it over and over with you. You don't discourse with people of different beliefs. You roll over them in your ultra compassionate Christian self-righteousness, and then play the woe is me guilt card.
That's why I said what I said. You will be a great tool for the machine - anything else - I am not sensing it.
-------------------- ...or something
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i like cow poo
Nature Lover


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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18866266 - 09/20/13 05:33 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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wow thats fucked up. every experience with the catholic church has been horrible. fuck that biggotry infested religion.
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Spacerific
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Registered: 10/13/12
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: i like cow poo]
#18866589 - 09/20/13 08:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Teach them that drugs and premarital sex are bad and to never come to Shroomery 
They will of course see through your bullshit, but yeah play the part as if it matters
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Spacerific] 1
#18868094 - 09/20/13 02:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Obviously you want him to get fired immediately. Moreover, you should doubt the ability of 10 year olds to watch a show like that because (1) most would be more interested in making fun of the man's accent, (2) a majority would be bored within 2 minutes, owing to simple but adult vocabulary, and (3) many would not understand, or if they did, there would be those who were traumatized. Lastly, a teacher cannot show any materials to kids that are not officially sanctioned by whomever is responsible for curriculum. You cannot discuss atheism with 10 year old children without their parents' consent either, and given that the whole trip is set within a Catholic school, why would you even consider this a viable option? You are utterly out of touch with reality, unless you are trying to be humorous, but I find no humor in teaching atheism since it's just the belief system of a materialist. Who needs to inculcate kids with crass materialism? That's just as grotesque as catechism IMO.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18868394 - 09/20/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Grapefruit]
#18868710 - 09/20/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cause we're humans.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Yogi1
Squatchin
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Grapefruit]
#18869195 - 09/20/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?
Quote:
Grapefruit said: This would be considered logic...................................
--------------------
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Grapefruit]
#18869392 - 09/20/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?
For the same reason that kids have to take passive permission forms home (parents only sign and return them IF they object to content) every year for their human growth and development curriculum. Religion is every where as sensitive a topic as sex is.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Yogi1
Squatchin
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18869410 - 09/20/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said: Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?
For the same reason that kids have to take passive permission forms home (parents only sign and return them IF they object to content) every year for their human growth and development curriculum. Religion is every where as sensitive a topic as sex is.
Do you think people are actually not understanding the premise of religious schools? Not asking sarcastically, you are responding informatively and I find it hard to think people are missing that part of the op.
--------------------
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Deviate
newbie
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
#18870879 - 09/21/13 05:27 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: This thread apparently is about Deviate wanting better advice about teaching children about rabbits with horns, pigs that can fly, and unicorns.
Deviate you've been at Shroomery for ten fucking years. Ignorance is no excuse. Don't get huffy. If you wanted pure Christian discourse you would go to Hipforums Christian Sanctuary.
You don't actually want discourse, you want people to -ooooo and aaaaa- about your great compassionate ability to raise new youths (into the same old fucking cognitive dissonance).
It's funny how in your first post you said " But holier than any religious person is someone who really cares from deep within, and who is willing to go the distance for others". Maybe you should take your own advice.
You know, I am not perfect. I have an ego. I have my flaws, I get frustrated, and upset and even a little afraid sometimes, just like 90% of the people on this planet.
But I am a sincere person. I am sincere about always seeking to understand things more deeply than I do right now and always seeking to grow and become a stronger, wiser, more compassionate and loving person.
All you are doing is pointing out some aspects of my ego which you regard as flaws, and mentioning them as if there was nothing more to me than my flaws, as if those flaws define who I am. If you want to mention what you think is bad about me, go ahead, I am open to constructive criticism. but it's neither kind nor productive to act as if me or anyone is defined by ego flaws and your lack of compassion tells me that while you may have some correct perceptions about me, you are not highly evolved enough at your core to be worth paying much attention to.
Oddly enough, in every thread you question my motivations, uncovering some sort of ego need behind my actions. But what are your motives? Are they not also ego-driven? If so, you are a hypocrite, if not what are they?
Anyway, while it is true that my actions have some ego behind them, how do you know there isn't also genuine good will, love, compassion and good intent behind what I do?
If you really understood human nature, you would know that one's intent is far important than the results of one's actions. What is your intent in being so highly critical toward me? It is impossible that despite my flaws I might also have some redeeming qualities?
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18871048 - 09/21/13 07:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You are blind you are in the wrong place for the kudos you wish for you yourself don't have the wisdom to teach others wisdom everything you say proves it.
My motivation? I am a mystic and seeker who feels rank hatred for all of you usurpers of wisdom, you misappropriaters of the seekers, you commercial endorsers of the useless medieval bullshit that every moment is still the cause of war, division and hatred. Don't think the two of us are in any way the same, except insofar as we both have two eyes and ear, two legs and arms, and so on. Otherwise yes we both hate, but we hate different things. We are not the same, and learn to use the fucking quotations like I did, and I didn't say everything you just quoted as I said.
All that said I don't hate or dislike you. I recognize that you cannot know the visage and guise of any internet poster. You dug your own hole, now stay in it. Or wishful thinking at best - don't.
-------------------- ...or something
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Yogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
#18871069 - 09/21/13 07:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: You are blind you are in the wrong place for the kudos you wish for you yourself don't have the wisdom to teach others wisdom everything you say proves it.
My motivation? I am a mystic and seeker who feels rank hatred for all of you usurpers of wisdom, you misappropriaters of the seekers, you commercial endorsers of the useless medieval bullshit that every moment is still the cause of war, division and hatred. Don't think the two of us are in any way the same, except insofar as we both have two eyes and ear, two legs and arms, and so on. Otherwise yes we both hate, but we hate different things. We are not the same, and learn to use the fucking quotations like I did, and I didn't say everything you just quoted as I said.
All that said I don't hate or dislike you. I recognize that you cannot know the visage and guise of any internet poster. You dug your own hole, now stay in it. Or wishful thinking at best - don't.
^^^ silly quote above me is ridiculous. He says contributing in the brainwashing of kids too young to challenge teachers, critically think, or understand basic math is a stupid task.
Obviously ingraining religion be impotant
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18871072 - 09/21/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Happiness comes from within from being yourself
Don't seek it outside yourself
and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth
if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god we all have god within us, but also the devil within us
thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt) they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)
christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)
my view is 50/50 buddhism/christianity it might be good to teach them, that christianity is not the only true religion
accept any viewpoint, accept others as they are, accept oneself
Edited by lessismore (09/21/13 07:38 AM)
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
#18871080 - 09/21/13 07:35 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am inwardly happier than I have ever been. To me, blindless implies the opposite, being inwardly empty and miserable. I spent many years in that state, many years in the endlessly circling mind til I realized the peace and happiness I desired was in my own heart.
That's just my experience and all my so called "wisdom" comes from my experience.
I believe every person's perspective has some validity and thus every person is in the position to give others some wisdom, so long as they faithfully report their experience.
But since you are apparently so much wiser than I, perhaps you could share some of that wisdom with the rest of us here on the forum. How do you think happiness should be sought?
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: lessismore]
#18871096 - 09/21/13 07:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: Happiness comes from within from being yourself
Don't seek it outside yourself
and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth
if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god we all have god within us, but also the devil within us
thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt) they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)
christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)
Correct. The truth is so beautiful to me that I cant help but love every path to it and every one who followed their path to it. Some people look at the Bible and see a bunch of ancient nonsense and fairly tales. Others see a collection of ancient wisdom that leads one to freedom.
I disagree that emotions are the devil though. Emotions are from God.
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Yogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18871114 - 09/21/13 07:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
mio said: Happiness comes from within from being yourself
Don't seek it outside yourself
and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth
if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god we all have god within us, but also the devil within us
thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt) they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)
christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)
Correct. The truth is so beautiful to me that I cant help but love every path to it and every one who followed their path to it. Some people look at the Bible and see a bunch of ancient nonsense and fairly tales. Others see a collection of ancient wisdom that leads one to freedom.
I disagree that emotions are the devil though. Emotions are from God.
Ignorance is also said to be bliss.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18871118 - 09/21/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Living as emotions
anger/wrath,frustration,hate,worrying,fear
that isn't helpful, it's better to stop up and reconsider if that is what you want to do
I think love is more than an emotion
emotions are often created by the brain(thoughts), but love isn't always I think
when all thoughts/emotions/desires cease there is only love, that is how you came to this world, love for yourself, love for everything you see
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: lessismore]
#18871122 - 09/21/13 07:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: Happiness comes from within from being yourself
Don't seek it outside yourself
and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth
if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god we all have god within us, but also the devil within us
thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt) they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)
christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)
my view is 50/50 buddhism/christianity it might be good to teach them, that christianity is not the only true religion
accept any viewpoint, accept others as they are, accept oneself
i never said that Chrianity was the only true religion. I can't really teach them Buddhism though, because that would be frowned upon. But it doesn't matter because Christianity works.
The Buddhists compare religions to rafts meant to help one cross a river. Once you cross, you dont carry the raft around with you anymore.
Of course many different kinds of rafts/boat could be used. Some boats are more suited for certain kinds of people. Christianity is an old but sturdy boat in my experience. It will get you across that river.
ALl the kids need to learn is how to love God instead of sensual enjoyment. Once they commit themselves to the path of truth, everything else will take care of itself. They will recognize there is truth in Buddhism, if they are filled with light and understanding. But they dont need Buddhism, Christ is sufficient.
I used to be more Buddhist/Hindu than Christian. I still recommend Christians study Zen Buddhism because I think it helps expose those parts of the ego which Christianity can tend to enhance rather than reduce.
For example i read in my zen book that religion makes a man's mind narrower and narrower while the goal of zen is to make man's mind wider and wider. I have found that to be true in the sense that, the more I delve into my catholic faith, the more narrow minded I become. Many people find this unnapealing and think I am arrogant and self righteous. The way I look at it however, its not positive or negative. Its just a matter of needing to focus on turning my mind inward right now. That means I dont have time to do things like consider other peoples atheistic viewpoints. It distracts me from my practice of turning inward.
So I have had to learn how to deal with being narrow minded, which is a very unusual experience for me since I used to be extremely open minded and always had a disliking for narrow minded religious folks.
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18871127 - 09/21/13 07:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yogi1 said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
mio said: Happiness comes from within from being yourself
Don't seek it outside yourself
and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth
if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god we all have god within us, but also the devil within us
thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt) they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)
christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)
Correct. The truth is so beautiful to me that I cant help but love every path to it and every one who followed their path to it. Some people look at the Bible and see a bunch of ancient nonsense and fairly tales. Others see a collection of ancient wisdom that leads one to freedom.
I disagree that emotions are the devil though. Emotions are from God.
Ignorance is also said to be bliss. 
Ignorance is counterfeit bliss. True bliss is full self knowledge. It is being ignorant of all things except one's self.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18871143 - 09/21/13 08:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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peace is from god :-)
worshiping god, and not only if you are christian
live in gods name, that is what helps bring peace to yourself and others
do no harm to others, help others, respect every creature on the earth/the earth, accept others
hippy, but it's true ;-)
muslims are the same way often, because they are taught to help others helping others is the best way to be happy "One of the central principles of Islam is helping others."
Edited by lessismore (09/21/13 08:15 AM)
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Yogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18871144 - 09/21/13 08:02 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I would posit the question how can someone ever really know their self? You can know some aspects but to think we can have a full understanding of anything seems like another aspect of the illusion (ignorance) bringing bliss.
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Grapefruit]
#18871172 - 09/21/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?
Who says you can't? It's not against the law. But I volunteered to teach kids about Catholicism.
That doesn't mean I can't choose how to present the information. For example I can say "this is what catholocism says". The way I view it, catholicism is one way of looking at life. It's not necessarily the only way to look at life, far from it, and that is part of what makes life beautiful.
However, because being able to look at life free from concepts, as newborn child does - without any judgment or condemnation or commentary- is precisely the ability that humans have lost, humans need to find some way to look at life conceptually.
Catholicism is one way. It has its pros and cons. And despite what the ignorant among you think, there are pros. When followed, the teachings of Catholicism can be used to mold oneself into a strong, virtuous, wise, mature and deeply inwardly peaceful person.
I know this because I have experienced it in my own life. I wont go into my whole spiritual journey here, but I was an absolutely miserable person before I began to awaken. I have studied many religions but eventually came to find that at least for me (though I believe for many others as well) learning how to love God was the easiest, quickest path to spiritual enlightenment.
So I read the Bible, I prayed the rosary, I went to mass, I did what the fucking church said even though it felt so ridiculously foreign to me at first, having grown up a devout atheist. It wasn't long before I realized that these things actually work. Prayer actually works to still the soul and bring it into the presence of the divine.
For those of you who don't speak Christian, there is a process of disengaging from the endlessly circling mind and centering awareness inwardly in the heart. When this is practiced with sincerity and perseverance over a period of time, one's natural focal point of awareness begins shifting from the activity of the verbal mind to the stillness of the heart. Here, rest is to be found. In here lies the wellspring of joy and happiness and it is present always, one must simply be abiding in it rather than in the outgoing mind. The outgoing mind is what provides us with the feeling of time. The distance your awareness is from the present moment is the same as the distance you are from God. God is eternity, and eternity is everywhere always. Time is the evidence. How could there be time without eternity? Time itself, implies it as eternity is simply the other side of time.
Now Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc are all means for understanding life in such a way that it will lead one to the change I described above. In Christianity this change is described in a certain way, Buddhist describe it in another way, etc. Once your heart has begun to flower, you will see this, the whole world will become alive with the presence of what Christians call God.
I see my role as being one of helping humanity evolve higher in consciousness. Taking the part of a religious teacher is one small way in which I work on this role as I will have 9 soul to present the truth to.
The trouble with atheism is that it is not a value system. It is a denial of the existence of God. Religion is more than a simple affirmation of the existence of God, it is a system of values.
That is why I challenged you guys to present alternative value systems.
What it really comes down to is whether you think happiness comes from within, or from without. The essence of Catholicism (as well as Buddhism, Hindusim, etc) is that the way to happiness is through the love of God which translates into righteous, charitable behavior, not wickedness and personal gain. All the rest are details.
So when I receive nothing but negativity what am I to assume? That you folks A) think happiness comes from success, sensual pleasure, comfort or other worldly delights? Or B) you accept that happiness is a spiritual treasure, but deny that Christianity can take one toward it?
Well, through my own experience, I know both of those statements to be false. I can do nothing other than report my own experience.
I don't know what all your guys's life goals are but I am seeking happiness. I am seeking happiness because I wasn't finding very much of it in the way I was living before. I wasn't finding happiness through trying to make things in the world go my way. So then I thought, ok happiness experienced within me, so maybe I should start looking for it where I lost it.
So that is what I did, and lo and behold, all that stuff the Jesus said turned out to be true. I would say I am about 10 times happier now than I was at this same time last year despite no changes in my physical situation.
One thing about happiness is that by nature it wants to be shared. So I come to this forum to try to tell them about the wellspring of happiness I found and learn from other souls who have also found the spring and are perhaps much wiser and more experienced than I am in spring management. I have learned a great deal from discussions with posters like markosthegnostic, icelander, the chronic and others.
There are also many souls here who are committed to looking for happiness in things. These souls do not like my message and come up with whatever reason they can possibly think of for rejecting it.
I respect their right to look for happiness in the world but I also don't like to debate with them too much because only so much can be communicated at the level of words. Sometimes it seems however, like they do not respect my right to look for happiness within. They preach tolerance and yet they just aren't able to tolerate the fact that I see a use for religion in this day and age.
I don't really see why it isn't ok to teach kids the path to inner happiness. The particular form that teaching take is only of secondary importance to me but I certainly respect the form of Christianity and I know that it works.
I am going to tell the kids that ultimately they are responsible for finding their own answers to the deep questions in life, their purpose, how to be happy, etc. However, I am also going to mention that they are not the first to consider these questions, man has been thinking about them for thousands of years. Catholicism is one particular way of approaching the problem of life that mankind has come up with. It isn't necessarily the only way, or even the best way, but its certainly a whole lot better than trying to find happiness in the world, for the history of mankind can be seen as a testament to the fact that this does not work.
I know this post was rather long and for that I am sorry but I felt the need to explain myself because I am feeling a little misunderstood. Is there anyone here who agrees with me or appreciates what I am tryng to do despite the fact I am not perfect and sometimes make mistakes?
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: lessismore]
#18871179 - 09/21/13 08:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
peace is from god :-)
worshiping god, and not only if you are christian
live in gods name, that is what helps bring peace to yourself and others
do no harm to others, help others, respect every creature on the earth/the earth, accept others
hippy, but it's true ;-)
muslims are the same way often, because they are taught to help others helping others is the best way to be happy "One of the central principles of Islam is helping others."
The Bible says Acts 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
So the idea that you have to be a Christian to be acceptable to God is not a Biblical idea.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18871196 - 09/21/13 08:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Happiness doesn't get less by being shared (giving is better than receiving)
peace ;-)
I think you will make a great teacher
My religion teacher taught me Christianity as though it was the only true religion, and just read aloud from the book, he didn't say much himself that I can remember (only from the book)
Edit: that was actually not the reason.. it was because I was busy studing, didn't want to decide , and didn't have the money for taxes , but I had lost faith temporarily and my soul for some years.. I never declared myself atheist iirc , but don't remember too well (I think I wanted to keep all options open, so atheist didn't fit me iirc)
I still have faith in god.. but I'm not 100% christian, I believe buddhism teaches it well too and many other religions
Love is what sets us free, and is what should be taught, love/respect for all living creatures the miracle of nature, the miracle of creation (god gave us his spirit, and a body), god gave a soul to all living creatures too
The soul is the holiest gift we have , and our bodies we should appreciate (not live as desires, the body is only temporary)
Edited by lessismore (09/21/13 08:48 AM)
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18871213 - 09/21/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yogi1 said: I would posit the question how can someone ever really know their self? You can know some aspects but to think we can have a full understanding of anything seems like another aspect of the illusion (ignorance) bringing bliss.
You ARE yourself. So to you know yourself fully, really means simply to be yourself, which you already are and cannot help but be.
So where does the confusion come from? The mind. The mind generates thoughts and through the power of thought it becomes possible to imagine you are something that you are not. The essence of what you are does not change however, thinking you are a crocodile for example, does not make you a crocodile. When imagination ceases, what is left, is what you truly are.
That simple memo is what Christ gave his life to make known to us.
You see, both knowledge and ignorance are both only made possible through imagination. Without imagination, without any thought, there is nothing to know or make known and no one to know it. There is just the pure suchness of the moment. Do you understand?
The great secret that mankind has forgotten is that this pure suchness of the present moment is actually peace. People do not see this, because they are always more or less lost in thought and do not give the present moment their full attention.
All the sacred texts, all the churches, all the prayers, all the different meditations, etc are meant to lead a man (or woman) to this realization. They are meant as aids to bring one's attention in, away from the endless circling of the outgoing mind and onto the present moment, which in Christianity is worshipped as God. In Buddhism it is called Nirvana.
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Yogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18871233 - 09/21/13 08:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Yogi1 said: I would posit the question how can someone ever really know their self? You can know some aspects but to think we can have a full understanding of anything seems like another aspect of the illusion (ignorance) bringing bliss.
You ARE yourself. So to you know yourself fully, really means simply to be yourself, which you already are and cannot help but be.
So where does the confusion come from? The mind. The mind generates thoughts and through the power of thought it becomes possible to imagine you are something that you are not. The essence of what you are does not change however, thinking you are a crocodile for example, does not make you a crocodile. When imagination ceases, what is left, is what you truly are.
That simple memo is what Christ gave his life to make known to us.
You see, both knowledge and ignorance are both only made possible through imagination. Without imagination, without any thought, there is nothing to know or make known and no one to know it. There is just the pure suchness of the moment. Do you understand?
The great secret that mankind has forgotten is that this pure suchness of the present moment is actually peace. People do not see this, because they are always more or less lost in thought and do not give the present moment their full attention.
All the sacred texts, all the churches, all the prayers, all the different meditations, etc are meant to lead a man (or woman) to this realization. They are meant as aids to bring one's attention in, away from the endless circling of the outgoing mind and onto the present moment, which in Christianity is worshipped as God. In Buddhism it is called Nirvana.
If I never tried to improve myself I would be a far dickier less wise individual. I find it hard to believe that social and mental reflexes make us who we are.
--------------------
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: lessismore]
#18871253 - 09/21/13 08:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: Happiness doesn't get less by being shared (giving is better than receiving)
peace ;-)
I think you will make a great teacher
My religion teacher taught me Christianity as though it was the only true religion, and just read aloud from the book, he didn't say much himself that I can remember (only from the book)
Edit: that was actually not the reason.. it was because I was busy studing, didn't want to decide , and didn't have the money for taxes , but I had lost faith temporarily and my soul for some years.. I never declared myself atheist iirc , but don't remember too well (I think I wanted to keep all options open, so atheist didn't fit me iirc)
I still have faith in god.. but I'm not 100% christian, I believe buddhism teaches it well too and many other religions
Love is what sets us free, and is what should be taught, love/respect for all living creatures the miracle of nature, the miracle of creation (god gave us his spirit, and a body), god gave a soul to all living creatures too
Buddhism is wonderful. The reason I am Christian and not Buddhist is because I decided it might be a good idea to try just do one religion at a time instead of mixing them altogether, which was my prior inclination.
There are important reasons for this, for example Buddhist practices are very different from Christian ones. If you are practicing devotion to God and it's working for you, then there is no reason to confuse yourself and waste time trying to do some Buddhist meditation. That is all time wasted that could have been spent worshiping the living God.
Similarly, if you are Buddhist, and you are deep in meditation, it would be silly to interrupt that in order to read the Bible or pray a rosary. Do you see what I am saying?
One must progress like this: desire for happiness ---> learning about the path to happiness ---> building faith in the path ----> building love and devotion to God and righteousness, or in Buddhist terms meditation and right action ---> communing with God in prayer and sacraments and surrending to Him or in Buddhism, deep meditation ---> contemplation of God. This is when the two paths begin to converge. The Christian's mind becomes absorbed so absorbed in his worship of God that it becoems absorbed in God and intense bliss results. This is known as contemplation and contemplation alone reveals the truth. Hindus call this Samadhi. Im not sure exactly what Buddhists call it. ---> the final stage is theoses, or total surrender to God resulting in union with him. In buddhism this is called nirvana and it is the realization the individual self does not exist, there is only nirvana.
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PocketLady



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18871688 - 09/21/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Deviate said:
So when I receive nothing but negativity what am I to assume? That you folks A) think happiness comes from success, sensual pleasure, comfort or other worldly delights? Or B) you accept that happiness is a spiritual treasure, but deny that Christianity can take one toward it?
Ok, as I've said before I actually agree with 90% of Christian values. But yes, I deny that the Catholic Church in particular, the most wealthy and powerful organisation on the planet, can take anyone towards true spirituality. It reminds me of that scene in Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade, where he is trying to determine which of the cups is really the holy grail. The "bad guys" assume that Jesus would have had a grand cup because he was the Son of God, when Indiana Jones correctly assumes it is actually the simplest cup, made out of nothing but wood.
Only the ego wants wealth and power.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
#18872680 - 09/21/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yogi1 said:
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MarkostheGnostic said:
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Grapefruit said: Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?
For the same reason that kids have to take passive permission forms home (parents only sign and return them IF they object to content) every year for their human growth and development curriculum. Religion is every where as sensitive a topic as sex is.
Do you think people are actually not understanding the premise of religious schools? Not asking sarcastically, you are responding informatively and I find it hard to think people are missing that part of the op.
Not at all. I live in Miami, populated with a lot of Hispanic peoples and Haitians, most of whom are Catholic, many of whom send their children to Catholic schools (I've seen 3 of them in my location). Of course there are Santeria elements present even with non-Santeria practicing Cubans, and Haitians have a love-fear relationship with Vodoun. People who are so identified with their ethnicity, their culture, that they cannot bear to step outside of it an look at it objectively are going to continue their non-questioning existence. This echelon of people are very determined by psychodynamics that include not alienating themselves from their parents, grandparents, and extended families. This all contributes to the continuation of the status quo.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Grapefruit]
#18872688 - 09/21/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Grapefruit said: Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?
You can if you're their parent. You can't if you're a teacher working for either a parochial or a public school.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
#18872711 - 09/21/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am a mystic and seeker who feels rank hatred
Well, you certainly disqualified yourself as a mystic with less than a whole sentence. A mystic seeks [comm]union with Ultimate Reality, and it should be obvious to you if you've learned anything, that hatred is not held in the psyche of a mystic who has experienced authentic mystical [comm]union with Reality.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18872722 - 09/21/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well you're entitled to your opinion but your opinion doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
It doesn't matter what church you belong to. That's not what determines the fate of your soul.
I mean do you really think that I cannot get "true spirituality" as a catholic but if I converted to methodist or lutheran that would change? What exactly would change?
The fact is that regardless of whatever corruption exists in the higher levels of the catholic church, it doesn't change the fact that there are and have been many sincere, well meaning priests and faithful parishiners. And that is what makes a good church, a group of people who come together every sunday who are sincere in their desire to grow in wisdom and virtue and sincere in their desire to know God and a preist who is knowledgeable in the gospel.
What you are saying makes very little sense to me. If you agree with 90% of Christian values and you understand the catholic church teaches these values, then how can you say that these same values will some how fail a person if they are practised within the catholic faith and yet claim they would be effective if practiced as a methodist or lutheran? It's not what you call yourself, it's how you live.
Even if every single preist in the whole church was a child molester, it wouldn't change the truth or falsehood of what the church teaches.
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18872728 - 09/21/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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MarkostheGnostic said: I am a mystic and seeker who feels rank hatred
Well, you certainly disqualified yourself as a mystic with less than a whole sentence. A mystic seeks [comm]union with Ultimate Reality, and it should be obvious to you if you've learned anything, that hatred is not held in the psyche of a mystic who has experienced authentic mystical [comm]union with Reality.
Thank you, Markos. I also find that the truth really is positive and abidence in it results in love, compassion and good will towards all people.
Edited by Deviate (09/21/13 03:50 PM)
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PocketLady



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18873027 - 09/21/13 04:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Deviate said: Well you're entitled to your opinion but your opinion doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
It doesn't matter what church you belong to. That's not what determines the fate of your soul.
I mean do you really think that I cannot get "true spirituality" as a catholic but if I converted to methodist or lutheran that would change? What exactly would change?
The fact is that regardless of whatever corruption exists in the higher levels of the catholic church, it doesn't change the fact that there are and have been many sincere, well meaning priests and faithful parishiners. And that is what makes a good church, a group of people who come together every sunday who are sincere in their desire to grow in wisdom and virtue and sincere in their desire to know God and a preist who is knowledgeable in the gospel.
What you are saying makes very little sense to me. If you agree with 90% of Christian values and you understand the catholic church teaches these values, then how can you say that these same values will some how fail a person if they are practised within the catholic faith and yet claim they would be effective if practiced as a methodist or lutheran? It's not what you call yourself, it's how you live.
Even if every single preist in the whole church was a child molester, it wouldn't change the truth or falsehood of what the church teaches.
I agree with the teachings of Jesus, but I personally think it is the Catholic Church that has corrupted those teachings. They have taken them to use them for their own purpose of power and to control the masses. That's all the church has ever been about.
Do you know anything about Gnosticism? I'm sure Markos can chime in on this one, but basically the Gnostics existed before Catholicism, Gnosticism meaning "knowledge". There were different sects, but they had a lot of esoteric and mystical knowledge. They basically taught that the kingdom of heaven lies within. Jesus was their most important spiritual leader. But they knew too much for their own good. After Jesus' death they were all thrown out of the church, and persecuted and eventually anyone deemed to be Gnostic was put to death by the church. Why? Because they were a threat to a church who wanted money and power, and who wanted people to believe that if they didn't believe in the churches idea of God they would go to hell. They wanted world domination and to control people through fear (the ultimate control mechanism). It's all they've ever wanted. And the people who taught that the only way to God is through yourself, that YOU have the power...all dead.
It's all very well being a good person with love in your heart, but supporting the very monster that has controlled the world for nearly 2 millennia is not helping humanity to evolve. It's not helping people think for themselves. It's not helping people to become truly free.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18873981 - 09/21/13 09:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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PocketLady said:
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Deviate said: Well you're entitled to your opinion but your opinion doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
It doesn't matter what church you belong to. That's not what determines the fate of your soul.
I mean do you really think that I cannot get "true spirituality" as a catholic but if I converted to methodist or lutheran that would change? What exactly would change?
The fact is that regardless of whatever corruption exists in the higher levels of the catholic church, it doesn't change the fact that there are and have been many sincere, well meaning priests and faithful parishiners. And that is what makes a good church, a group of people who come together every sunday who are sincere in their desire to grow in wisdom and virtue and sincere in their desire to know God and a preist who is knowledgeable in the gospel.
What you are saying makes very little sense to me. If you agree with 90% of Christian values and you understand the catholic church teaches these values, then how can you say that these same values will some how fail a person if they are practised within the catholic faith and yet claim they would be effective if practiced as a methodist or lutheran? It's not what you call yourself, it's how you live.
Even if every single preist in the whole church was a child molester, it wouldn't change the truth or falsehood of what the church teaches.
I agree with the teachings of Jesus, but I personally think it is the Catholic Church that has corrupted those teachings. They have taken them to use them for their own purpose of power and to control the masses. That's all the church has ever been about.
Do you know anything about Gnosticism? I'm sure Markos can chime in on this one, but basically the Gnostics existed before Catholicism, Gnosticism meaning "knowledge". There were different sects, but they had a lot of esoteric and mystical knowledge. They basically taught that the kingdom of heaven lies within. Jesus was their most important spiritual leader. But they knew too much for their own good. After Jesus' death they were all thrown out of the church, and persecuted and eventually anyone deemed to be Gnostic was put to death by the church. Why? Because they were a threat to a church who wanted money and power, and who wanted people to believe that if they didn't believe in the churches idea of God they would go to hell. They wanted world domination and to control people through fear (the ultimate control mechanism). It's all they've ever wanted. And the people who taught that the only way to God is through yourself, that YOU have the power...all dead.
It's all very well being a good person with love in your heart, but supporting the very monster that has controlled the world for nearly 2 millennia is not helping humanity to evolve. It's not helping people think for themselves. It's not helping people to become truly free.
The way I see it, you are confusing two entirely different questions. One question is, should we support the catholic church? The second question is can the practice of catholocism lead one to God?
Do you see how those are two completely different questions? I respect your opinion on the first question. I'll be the first to admit that the catholic church has done a lot of bad things. I think the true history of the gnostic sects is a little bit more complex than the version you presented, but I will give you the fact that historically the church was responsible for a lot of persecution of competing sects. I don't think it's very fair to look at all the bad that the church has done while simply ignoring all the good but if you want to condemn the church for it's wrongs I won't argue with you.
But the second question is a different matter entirely. This is something I have discussed with markosthegnostic actually. Let's say I were to convert to gnosticism. What exactly would I do differently from a practical point of view? Are there special prayers that a gnostic says? Some special way of approaching God that the gnostics have which catholics do not? I asked Markgos about this and he couldn't give me anything that couldn't be found in either the roman catholic or eastern orthodox churches. Most of the esoteric and mystical knowledge you speak of, can also be found within the two churches I just mentioned. The wisdom of the desser fathers of the eastern orthodox church especially resembles certain aspects of gnosticism. Furthermore, I like to emphasize the fact that the path taught by Christ is not some incredibly complex top secret formula. Anyone can do something that brings them closer to God, whether its prayer, charitable works, even going to church sunday. It's not that hard to understand. We are supposed to live righteously and refrain from wickedness and love God over anything he created. Of course the Kingdom of Heaven is within. As far as I know, it has never been a doctrine of the catholic church that the kingdom of heaven was somewhere else.
So what is my point here? My point is that while certain forms of Christianity may certainly be truer to Christ's original teachings than others, you don't have to be a member of a specific organization or sect to follow them. As long as you are sincere in your desire to know God and willing to persevere in prayer and good works, God will eventually have mercy on you. Hence, despite whatever flaws you percieve in it, the catholic faith DOES give people the tools they need to find God in their hearts, and that alone is true freedom.
I am catholic out of convenience more than anything else. There isn't a gnostic church in my town. I had to choose whether to either not go to church at all, or to go to one of the churches that is a reasonable distance from my home. From those churches, I selected the catholic church. At first it felt very strange and I had many misgivings just as you do. But I eventually learned to love Mass and my soul has received many graces through it and through Holy Communion. Part of Christianity is the community aspect of it, it's not just you and God but other christians as well. There wsan't a gnostic sect in my town, so if I wanted to experience that aspect of the faith, again, out of practical necessity I had to go with what was available to me. Imperfect as it may be, there is still a great deal of love and spiritual light being imparted to people at Mass. I have had some of the most powerful spiritual experiences of my life which I would not trade for the world, at Mass. So what do you suggest I do? Stop going to church? or become a methodist or lutheran or something?
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PocketLady



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18875448 - 09/22/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Look Deviate, I respect what you are saying. And I respect your right to believe what you want. I agree with Christian values, i.e in the teachings of Jesus. But I don't agree with the Christian idea of God and I definitely do not agree with the Catholic church. I'm not at all convinced that the Catholic Church has had an overall positive impact on this world. And I think children (as I did) should have the right to make up their own minds about religion and not be force-fed whatever their parents believe in. But that is clearly asking too much of the world at this moment in time. It's precisely because of Catholicism that children aren't allowed to make up their own minds. That is true freedom.
But you are right. There is no harm in helping kids to be a better people.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18879719 - 09/23/13 09:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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MarkostheGnostic said: I am a mystic and seeker who feels rank hatred
Well, you certainly disqualified yourself as a mystic with less than a whole sentence. A mystic seeks [comm]union with Ultimate Reality, and it should be obvious to you if you've learned anything, that hatred is not held in the psyche of a mystic who has experienced authentic mystical [comm]union with Reality.
Do you consider yourself a mystic? Do you ever feel anger or hatred? If you're not a realized mystic how do you know what an authentic mystic feels inside?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Icelander]
#18880379 - 09/23/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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MarkostheGnostic said: I am a mystic and seeker who feels rank hatred
Well, you certainly disqualified yourself as a mystic with less than a whole sentence. A mystic seeks [comm]union with Ultimate Reality, and it should be obvious to you if you've learned anything, that hatred is not held in the psyche of a mystic who has experienced authentic mystical [comm]union with Reality.
Do you consider yourself a mystic? Do you ever feel anger or hatred? If you're not a realized mystic how do you know what an authentic mystic feels inside?
Like everything else Ice, being something is not about be a 'thing.' Being a mystic, as defined by Evelyn Underhill at the turn of the 19th century is how I define it.
"[M]ysticism is the art of union with Reality...The visionary is a mystic when his vision mediates to him an actuality beyond the reach of the senses. The philosopher is a mystic when he passes beyond thought to the pure apprehension of truth. The active man is a mystic when he knows his actions to be part of a greater activity." - Practical Mysticism by Evelyn Underhill, P. 9
I do meet these criteria. Unfortunately, the term mystic can also be applied to an "active man" as evil as Heinrich Himmler. I have an old VHS with 'Himmler the Mystic' recorded. But as a paradigm of a man with "rank hatred," I do not consider even calling such a demonic being as Himmler a mystic. The simple reason is that the invariant feature of true mystics is their insistence on love and compassion unsullied by differences. Buddhists include non-harm to animals as well, based on the experience that Ultimate reality is a union of Compassion-Wisdom. A genocidal madman cannot be considered to be a mystic, owing to the nature of what he chooses to be in harmony with - hate. Even a petty little hater is no mystic in the correctly defined sense. There are all manner of delusions whereby one is being directed by a power beyond oneself. Psychotics are prime examples. Obsessives and Paranoids are additional examples. Paranoids goose-step in unison with thousands of other paranoids and feel part of a greater whole.
I do get cursing, bird-flipping angry, but hatred is a desire to destroy utterly, to kill individuals or groups. Jesus was said to have overturned the tables of the money-lenders at the courtyard of the temple, and thrashed them in a state of righteous anger. Anger is a form of raw energy, like fire, that can be sublimated into more useful forms. Anger is Geburah, Judgement on the Kabbalistic Tree. It is the 'wrath of God.' It is in the lion taking down the zebra. It is the sphere of influence behind the nightmarish aspect to existence. It is what makes an animal or child abuser. I used to get angry, sexually abused kids to stop acting out at school by redirecting their emotions away from impulsive acts of violence, to controlled articulation to me. Then, together, we would call the events into police and Child Protective Services, and sometimes get the perp arrested. This began a process of healing and it it was all about channeling the raw emotional anger into more intelligent uses. I cannot say that I hate. I have preferences, and prejudices (fundies, haters, animal/child abusers and poachers), that I avoid rather than engage because I cannot make a change in them even if I want to by argument. I'm not wasting my prana. I will ACT decisively and legally with those whom I consider to be enemies of kindness. I called the cops 5 times on my next door neighbors for the treatment of their German Shepherd, and bought treats for years to feed the lonely dog whenever he saw me coming home. Hatred just poisons my own being. Even anger MUST be sublimated or it will cause real negative changes to your very body.
A mystic is not a glassy-eyed hypnotized robot like a Moonie. My approach to life is mystical. Sometimes it operates at the level of a nature mystic (I was 'peeping' at our resident cardinal couple through the window yesterday. The male kept getting closer to the window and tilting his head. The pair usually dive-bomb their reflections on our window film from dawn til dusk). Earlier, I talked to a lizard on the pool pump. He tilted his head at my voice for a while, before he took off. Once in a while I can coax one into my hand. Sometimes, in meditation, I attain to a more formless degree of identity. The other night on mushrooms, I had visionary experience which I experienced unity with. The music and visions created a kind of symmetry of light and sound which was mystical in nature, in that reality became Light and Sound. Other experiences have brought me to what I afterwards interpreted as the Ground of Being. Metta, loving kindness, in varying degrees always colors mystical moments, and Awe enters the highest mystical moments - the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18880560 - 09/23/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You knew I wouldn't read that much text. Not fair.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mahananda


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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate] 1
#18886603 - 09/24/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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My guess is that it's going to be very difficult to really get across a sense of spirituality to children that age. If they were older my instinct would have been to suggest you go over with them the tools in the particular spiritual toolkit you'll be working with (meditation, lectio divina, contemplation, use of rosary, etc.), but they'd likely just be bored with those things, if they fully comprehended them at all.
One thing that it strikes me might fill the bill, providing concrete examples in the context of real life stories often focused on selfless service to the poor, would be to liberally use the lives of the saints as examples of the virtues you want to teach. You'd still probably have to dilute the material pretty heavily, but it might be an engaging way to head in the direction you're looking to go.
Best of luck to you.
-------------------- Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times, Come, yet again, come, come
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White Beard

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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Mahananda]
#18886625 - 09/24/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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What you should really do is bring in a human skull, hold it up to them and say: "You may be young now, but eventually this will be you. It will be me too. It will be all of us, and no one will remember who you were, and what you did. So, for God's sake, live your life while you're still here. If you aren't liking what you're doing, do something else! Explore, love, create, learn, but remember kiddies, the clock is ticking and this life isn't a practice run." Then place an hour glass on the table and walk out.
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Icelander
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: White Beard]
#18886643 - 09/24/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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White Beard said: What you should really do is bring in a human skull, hold it up to them and say: "You may be young now, but eventually this will be you. It will be me too. It will be all of us, and no one will remember who you were, and what you did. So, for God's sake, live your life while you're still here. If you aren't liking what you're doing, do something else! Explore, love, create, learn, but remember kiddies, the clock is ticking and this life isn't a practice run." Then place an hour glass on the table and walk out.
QFT
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mahananda


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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Icelander]
#18886691 - 09/24/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not quite sure if it's age appropriate, and I don't know about the walking out part, but otherwise that's actually great advice :-)
-------------------- Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times, Come, yet again, come, come
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White Beard

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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Mahananda]
#18886707 - 09/24/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I wish someone told me that when I was that age.
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Spacerific
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: White Beard]
#18888806 - 09/25/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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A the old skull-on-the-desk, vanitas reminder. Brilliant 
Do this OP, and watch how the complaints from the parents roll in. School isn't meant to teach and talk about about real things, it's meant to teach being proper. Etiquette. Appearances. Status quo. The pledge of allegiance.
Vanitas still lifes and skulls on the desk have fallen out of fashion these days unfortunately.
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: White Beard]
#18888981 - 09/25/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: What you should really do is bring in a human skull, hold it up to them and say: "You may be young now, but eventually this will be you. It will be me too. It will be all of us, and no one will remember who you were, and what you did. So, for God's sake, live your life while you're still here. If you aren't liking what you're doing, do something else! Explore, love, create, learn, but remember kiddies, the clock is ticking and this life isn't a practice run." Then place an hour glass on the table and walk out.
You can do things like this with undergraduates, not grade school kids. There is a very good chance that you'd be fired for this, even with honors or gifted senior high students as soon as one of those sick parents heard about it. They'd be up the principal's ass and down at the school board almost simultaneously, clamoring for your dismissal, not because their kid was freaked out, but because these kind of parents want the opportunity to express outrage and control. I say this with a certain authority having taught some undergraduate and graduate courses, as well as having just retired from 27 years in a huge public school system.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
#18889925 - 09/25/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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On thQuote:
PocketLady said: Look Deviate, I respect what you are saying. And I respect your right to believe what you want. I agree with Christian values, i.e in the teachings of Jesus. But I don't agree with the Christian idea of God and I definitely do not agree with the Catholic church. I'm not at all convinced that the Catholic Church has had an overall positive impact on this world.
This isn't about you and your personal opinions regarding certain churches. I never said the catholic church had a positive or negative impact on the world overall. Look, you're free to think whatever you want but here's what I've realized. Getting too hung up on specifics (ei. the difference between this church and that church or this belief systen and that belief system) only hinders one's ability to show compassion and respect toward all people, because despite our differences we are all brothers and sisters on this planet.
If you agree with Christian values, then I want point out that in my experience, the core of Christian values transcends the differences between individual churches. Thats why I asked if gnostics have some special prayer that they say that separates them from other Christians. Regardless of your favorite denomination, the fact remains that what matters is where one's heart is and not what church they belong to. There is absolutely no reason why one cannot learn Christian values (which you said you agree with) in a catholic context. The spiritual tools that Jesus gave us, faith, prayer, forgiveness, obeying the commandments, loving your neighbor, loving God, etc can be practiced anywhere, by anyone. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that one cannot learn these things as a catholic but must be a gnostic or whatever brand of Christianity you wish to promote. And when you say you dont agree with the Christian idea of God, what do you mean? There is not one single Christian idea of God, but rather throughout history various Christians have had various understandings of God and different insights about the nature of God. Tell me your idea of God and lets see how it stacks up. It's always easier to generalize and criticize others than present your own ideas.
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And I think children (as I did) should have the right to make up their own minds about religion and not be force-fed whatever their parents believe in. But that is clearly asking too much of the world at this moment in time.
I dont know what you mean by have the right to make up their own mind. If these children disagree with something I teach them do you think they are going to get burned at the stake? Of course they have the right to make up their own mind. If you think teaching children a certain belief system takes away their right to make up their own mind, then we would have to do away with culture entirely. Whether they want to or not, adults always pass on their fundamental assumptions about reality to their children. That is the bases of society and culture. The idea of being able to make up one's own mind, is largely an illusion. It's not how humans were meant to function. We were meant to share information and values and to pass those things on to our children. Exactly how that should be done has a subjective element to it, but what makes your opinion more valid than other peoples?
Heres an example. When i wsa in the third grade, bill clinton was running for president. My school held a mock election in which the children voted. We were not told whom to vote for, we could "make up our own minds". Do you think it was mere coincidence that every single child voted for the same candidate as their parents? Now did all the parents force their children to adopt the same political beliefs? Of course not. Some of them might have but politics simply aren't particularly important to many families. Never the less, children cannot help but see the world through the eyes of their parents. What use is it in pretending that kids are making up their own minds? it is a pure lie. Religion is no different. Acting as if children possess the capacity make up their own minds about something as adult as religion, free from undue influence, is a pure lie.
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It's precisely because of Catholicism that children aren't allowed to make up their own minds. That is true freedom.
You're joking, right? And true freedom is not being able to make up one's own mind, thats illusory freedom (since past conditioning is really the determining factor in how you make up your mind). true freedom in abidance in truth.
Edited by Deviate (09/25/13 03:53 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: fivepointer]
#18899956 - 09/27/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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fivepointer said:
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Deviate said: Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
How do you reconcile Catholic teachings that are opposed to scripture? Scripture warns not to follow the traditions of men, but the Word of God.
Scripture says: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
Mary is sinless (Bible declares the only sinless one is Jesus) Where?
Assumption of Mary (Nowhere to be found in scripture) Just because something isn't in the Bible doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Forbidding to marry (Priests are forbidden to marry. Bible states elders should be married.) http://www.truth-reason.com/2012/11/11/forbidding-to-marry/
Abstaining from meats on certain days (All foods are to be enjoyed with thankfulness) Now that just an absurd charge. Its only certain days so it does not violate the all foods are to be enjoyed with thanksgiving clause.
Priests can forgive sin (Absurd) Now you are the one contradicting the Bible. John 20:23 states If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” So Jesus gives the apostles the authority to forgive sins.
Purgatory (Not in scripture at all) Again because something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Salvation by cooperative merit (Sinners have no merits, Jesus only saves sinners, those without merits)
You believe in salvation by cooperative merit also. You believe that one must come to believe (hence cooperate) in the gospel in order to be saved. If salvation wasn't by cooperative merit, what would be the point of having a Bible or a gospel? God would simply save whom he wished to save without any need for us to have any knowledge of the process, since its not something we can exercise control over anyway.
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Sacramentalism- The Mass (Not in scripture, no church's actions can ever forgive a sin.) Baptismal regeneration (Not in scripture, no church's actions can ever forgive a sin.)
I could go on and on, but you get my point.
Most of your questions can be answered with a simple google search.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18899972 - 09/27/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Assumption of Mary (Nowhere to be found in scripture) Just because something isn't in the Bible doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Since you put your faith on the bible how would you know that something did happen if it wasn't in there? How would you know?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Icelander]
#18900055 - 09/27/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well the question wasn't how would I know but rather what's wrong with believing something that's not in the Bible. I think it's simple, the Bible is not the only standard for deciding what is true or untrue. For example, take the story of Noah's Ark. Somehow I doubt that happened exactly as the Bible tells it. When the reformation happened, there was no longer any united authority for interpreting the Bible, so the idea of "Bible alone" became very popular. As unfortunate effect of this was that people began taking the Bible literally, because after all, the idea of Bible alone makes a lot more sense if the Bible is literally true. If instead the Bible is myth, then interpreting it correctly becomes a lot more difficult, something that would be beyond the scope of the average person's ability. But the need for an interpreter doesn't jive well with the idea of Bible alone, so the Bible was accepted as literal truth among many of the reformed churches.
As for your question about how I do know about the assumption of Mary, I don't know. It is a doctrine of the catholic church, which is based off a few things, such as the fact that there is no gravesite and no relics of Mary, even though in those days relics of saints were highly prized. But I don't know for sure. It is possible Mary was not assumed into heaven and the church is wrong.
Edited by Deviate (09/27/13 07:01 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18900061 - 09/27/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I agree that there's nothing wrong with believing things that aren't in the bible. I also agree that the things in the bible may or may not be accurate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18900247 - 09/27/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Mary was supposed to have been assumed bodily into heaven, in 1950. Jung analyzed the psychology of this doctrine to mean that although Mary did not become a part of the Trinity, formally, the doctrine did suggest a feminine aspect to the two masculine and one neuter genders of father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A Quaternity lacks the dynamism that threeness suggests, but at the same time, a wholeness is suggested by a square over a triangle. There have been other attempts to add the Eternal Feminine into the Trinitarian Godhead, I think maybe the Orthodox theologian Sergi Bulgakov may have been accused of heresy by suggesting a dynamic hyposthesis of Sophia (Wisdom) interconnecting the three hypostheses.
The Trinity is not in the Bible either. Jesus would not accept any such theoretical nonsense as this doctrine had he been asked. This developed out of Neo-Platonic notions from the 3rd century. Augustine had been a Neo-Platonist and a Manichean before going Christian. He merely changed the names of One, Nous, and Anima Mundi to Father, Son, Holy Spirit, following Tertullian's coining of the word 'trinity.' The Greek Orthodox already had Plotinus among their 3rd century philosophers, and Pseudo-Dionysius became a very influential Christian Neo-Platonist. He built on Plotinus and the Bible just as Tertullian came up with 'trinity' because of three names of God in the NT.
If instead the Bible is myth, then interpreting it correctly becomes a lot more difficult, something that would be beyond the scope of the average person's ability. But the need for an interpreter doesn't jive well with the idea of Bible alone, so the Bible was accepted as literal truth among many of the reformed churches.
This is true to a certain extent. The myths are presented to the multitudes as history, because the multitudes are locked into fairly concrete thinking (Piaget's Concrete Operational Thought). Maybe 50% of Americans function in Formal Operational Thought, in which logic can be applied to ideas themselves rather than simply uncritically accepting ideas, hook, line, and sinker. I am not being elitist here. Abstract thinkers exist, and have always existed, in much lower numbers than concrete thinkers. The average person of the 2nd century must have been considerably more 'concrete' than today's average person (except perhaps for 21st century literalist Christians). Even sophisticated thinkers like Celsus understood this, and questioned the uniqueness of the Christian mythos. He was not an "average person" and he lived during the 3rd century. The Church Father Origen felt sufficiently intimidated by the Neo-Platonist Celsus that he wrote Contra Celsus. The attempt to create one universal church failed in the political sense, and regardless of the average (or lss than average) Bible banger, the myths are handled very differently throughout Christendom. The Gnostics of course have a greater range of conceptions, everything from an historical Christ to a Docetic Christ (with a phantom body) to Christ as a purely spiritual entity that descends on Jesus at his baptism, and leaves him on the cross. Others view the entire drama as myth, but draw just as much faith for living as those who insist on a historical Jesus and a magickal Resurrection and Ascension.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18901078 - 09/27/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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MarkostheGnostic said: Maybe 50% of Americans function in Formal Operational Thought, in which logic can be applied to ideas themselves rather than simply uncritically accepting ideas, hook, line, and sinker.
I wonder what that would look like plot on a map.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#18901232 - 09/28/13 12:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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MarkostheGnostic said: Mary was supposed to have been assumed bodily into heaven, in 1950. Jung analyzed the psychology of this doctrine to mean that although Mary did not become a part of the Trinity, formally, the doctrine did suggest a feminine aspect to the two masculine and one neuter genders of father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A Quaternity lacks the dynamism that threeness suggests, but at the same time, a wholeness is suggested by a square over a triangle. There have been other attempts to add the Eternal Feminine into the Trinitarian Godhead, I think maybe the Orthodox theologian Sergi Bulgakov may have been accused of heresy by suggesting a dynamic hyposthesis of Sophia (Wisdom) interconnecting the three hypostheses.
Mary does add a feminine aspect, which I became aware of through prayiner the Rosary. I realized that when I prayed the rosary, I was in invoking a different, feminine energy, then what is invoked when I pray to Jesus or the father. This in my opinion is one of the things which makes Catholic and Orthodox CHristianity spiritually superior to protestant CHristianity. Sure you can argue that the catholic church is a male dominated sexist organization, but at least it recognizes the divine feminine in its practices whereas the protestants look at praying to Mary as heretical. In my experience, devotion to Mary and use of her rosary has been invaluable in creating balance in my spiritual life, something which cannot be achieved if the divine is conceived of only in masculine ways.
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The Trinity is not in the Bible either. Jesus would not accept any such theoretical nonsense as this doctrine had he been asked. This developed out of Neo-Platonic notions from the 3rd century. Augustine had been a Neo-Platonist and a Manichean before going Christian. He merely changed the names of One, Nous, and Anima Mundi to Father, Son, Holy Spirit, following Tertullian's coining of the word 'trinity.' The Greek Orthodox already had Plotinus among their 3rd century philosophers, and Pseudo-Dionysius became a very influential Christian Neo-Platonist. He built on Plotinus and the Bible just as Tertullian came up with 'trinity' because of three names of God in the NT.
The word trinity isn't in the Bible but Jesus does say to baptize in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit.
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This is true to a certain extent. The myths are presented to the multitudes as history, because the multitudes are locked into fairly concrete thinking (Piaget's Concrete Operational Thought). Maybe 50% of Americans function in Formal Operational Thought, in which logic can be applied to ideas themselves rather than simply uncritically accepting ideas, hook, line, and sinker. I am not being elitist here. Abstract thinkers exist, and have always existed, in much lower numbers than concrete thinkers. The average person of the 2nd century must have been considerably more 'concrete' than today's average person (except perhaps for 21st century literalist Christians). Even sophisticated thinkers like Celsus understood this, and questioned the uniqueness of the Christian mythos. He was not an "average person" and he lived during the 3rd century. The Church Father Origen felt sufficiently intimidated by the Neo-Platonist Celsus that he wrote Contra Celsus. The attempt to create one universal church failed in the political sense, and regardless of the average (or lss than average) Bible banger, the myths are handled very differently throughout Christendom. The Gnostics of course have a greater range of conceptions, everything from an historical Christ to a Docetic Christ (with a phantom body) to Christ as a purely spiritual entity that descends on Jesus at his baptism, and leaves him on the cross. Others view the entire drama as myth, but draw just as much faith for living as those who insist on a historical Jesus and a magickal Resurrection and Ascension.
I have noticed that many people lack the ability to think critically about ideas. I would call them assumptions. They accept them so uncritically, that it doesnt even occur to them that they are making assumptions that I might not share, nor does it occur to them that their assumptions might be incorrect.
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cez


Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18901271 - 09/28/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest. It'd make for nice structure.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: cez]
#18901279 - 09/28/13 01:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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cez said: I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest. It'd make for nice structure.
praise slack
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18901316 - 09/28/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Deviate said: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
How better to progress to a healthier humanity than to stick to the same old fly traps?
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Sleepwalker]
#18901382 - 09/28/13 02:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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fly traps?
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Icelander
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18901817 - 09/28/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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CosmicJoke said:
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cez said: I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest. It'd make for nice structure.
praise slack

-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18901843 - 09/28/13 08:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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CosmicJoke said:
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cez said: I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest. It'd make for nice structure.
praise slack


"In the year 1166 B.C., a malcontented hunchbrain by the name of Greyface, got it into his head that the universe was as humorless as he, and he began to teach that play was sinful because it contradicted the ways of Serious Order. "Look at all the order around you," he said. And from that, he deluded honest men to believe that reality was a straightjacket affair and not the happy romance as men had known it.
It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular time, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the disorder around them and conclude just the opposite. But anyway, Greyface and his followers took the game of playing at life more seriously than they took life itself and were known even to destroy other living beings whose ways of life differed from their own.
The unfortunate result of this is that mankind has since been suffering from a psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and frustration causes fear. And fear makes for a bad trip. Man has been on a bad trip for a long time now.
It is called THE CURSE OF GREYFACE."
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: cez]
#18902156 - 09/28/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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cez said: I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest. It'd make for nice structure.
the book is your heart
do what you love is all you need then the books you need will come automatically, you rarely have to buy them either
but there are probably many interesting books about personal development too haven't read any, except the power of now .. that one I like, someone gave me it
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18902651 - 09/28/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
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cez said: I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest. It'd make for nice structure.
praise slack

Behold! http://www.scribd.com/doc/16555179/The-Book-of-the-Subgenius
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fivepointer
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18903008 - 09/28/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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fivepointer said:
Salvation by cooperative merit (Sinners have no merits, Jesus only saves sinners, those without merits)
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Deviate said: You believe in salvation by cooperative merit also. You believe that one must come to believe (hence cooperate) in the gospel in order to be saved. If salvation wasn't by cooperative merit, what would be the point of having a Bible or a gospel? God would simply save whom he wished to save without any need for us to have any knowledge of the process, since its not something we can exercise control over anyway.
I think you misunderstand my position on this. Faith has no meritorious value. Saving faith is a gift of God. Saving faith can't be generated by a mere act of the will due to man's bondage to sin. Regeneration, conversion, faith, repentance, the new man, are gifts from above. Saving faith receives what has already been given. God has ordained that every one He is going to save will in time come to faith. No one is saved apart from conversion. God from eternity past has determined to save a people for Himself, despite who they are, not because of the things that they do. Sinners bring nothing to the table. Justification is by imputation, Christ's righteousness alone, apart from any works of sinners.
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Deviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: fivepointer]
#18904946 - 09/28/13 10:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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fivepointer said:
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fivepointer said:
Salvation by cooperative merit (Sinners have no merits, Jesus only saves sinners, those without merits)
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Deviate said: You believe in salvation by cooperative merit also. You believe that one must come to believe (hence cooperate) in the gospel in order to be saved. If salvation wasn't by cooperative merit, what would be the point of having a Bible or a gospel? God would simply save whom he wished to save without any need for us to have any knowledge of the process, since its not something we can exercise control over anyway.
I think you misunderstand my position on this. Faith has no meritorious value. Saving faith is a gift of God. Saving faith can't be generated by a mere act of the will due to man's bondage to sin. Regeneration, conversion, faith, repentance, the new man, are gifts from above. Saving faith receives what has already been given. God has ordained that every one He is going to save will in time come to faith. No one is saved apart from conversion. God from eternity past has determined to save a people for Himself, despite who they are, not because of the things that they do. Sinners bring nothing to the table. Justification is by imputation, Christ's righteousness alone, apart from any works of sinners.
Yes, that is true but from our incorrect point of view it is necessary to conceive of such ideas as merit.
Basically you are taking a hard determinist position, which I don't disagree with. I don't disagree that those who are to be saved, have already been chosen by God. But because we experience ourselves as having free will and having the freedom to choose to serve God or the devil, we must strive to choose to serve God. At the end, when all is revealed by God to us, we may in fact see that what you are saying is true. We may see that every time we made a good choice, it wasn't actually us that did it, but God's grace and the whole time we thought we were striving to turn from our evil ways to make a place in our souls for Christ, we might see that it was actually just a process completely orchestrated by God.
But because that is not our experience right now, we must hold in our mind ideas about right and wrong, merit and demerit, good and evil, etc. Its like if you knew that you were predesitined to become a lawyer, would you enroll in law school? You might, but someone else in your shoes might say, why bother? I am predestined to be a lawyer. I cannot escape that fate. So why do I need to study law? No matter what I do, somehow I am going to end up being a lawyer. WOuld you not agree that that is the wrong approach to take the gospel? And yet, if salvation has nothing to do with our choices, then there is no reason I couldnt burn my Bible and go on a killing spree tomorrow. The gospel is supposed to provide us with motivation to change our lives and turn from our wicked ways. Your version of the gospel does not do that. It says that we cannot affect our salvation, so we might as well go on being wicked. Of course you would say that no, we are supposed to be good out of thankfulness for our gift of salvation. Well, ok, how good do I have to be? Can I get away with a little wickedness here or a little there? It shouldn't matter really, because my eternal salvation has already been decided. All you can say is that if I am not thankful and desiring to do good maybe I wasnt saved. But this is the stupid, confusing aspect of your doctrine. It doesn't necessarily happen overnight whereby you turn from being filled with sin and evil desire to becoming a saint who gives thanks to God everywhere and always. And that is the point of catholocism, it gives us motivation and tools to use to help us along the way. Instead, you want it to be either or. If its either or then why do I need to worry about what I do? the you should be thankful argument fails because it doesn't tell me how thankful I need to be. I mean, you basically end up in the exact same boat as you do with catholocism. You start questioning whether you are saved or not by how thankful you feel and how good your actions are. If thats the case, then your gospel cannot offer any more assurance of salvation than mine.
The good thing about the catholic gospel is that it doesnt allow for the complete moral degradation of double predestination whereby one is completely removed from the eternal consequences of their actions by a pre-determined outcome.
Do you see what I'm saying? As long as you feel that you are in control of your life, you have to accept that there are benefits (merits) to following God rather than living according to your own whims. You cannot deny that the Bible teaches us to obey God's commandments and avoid evil doing. Why does it say this if it has nothing to do with salvation?
Your position just doesn't make any sense.
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fivepointer
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18922759 - 10/02/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I never base my assurance of salvation on how good my actions are. I base my assurance on the knowledge of the truth of the gospel, the righteousness of Christ by imputation, the witness of the Spirit with my spirit. While my actions are different then they were prior to conversion (now I have an changed heart), this is NOT a basis for assurance. I know I am saved, no matter how "bad" I am at any given moment. I do not rest in my works of goodness, but solely on Christ's righteousness. The Catholic position mixes personal "goodness", effort, grace, sacraments, and tries to mung these together to somehow arrive at a righteousness that will justify. This is justification by impartation, not by imputation. It denies the very foundation of the faith, which is justification by imputation of perfect righteousness.
The official Catholic position on assurance is that assurance of salvation is a sin, it is the "sin of assumption". How can one be thankful of salvation if they can never have any assurance of salvation? Thankful for MAYBE having salvation??
Catholics fatally err when it come to understanding God's righteousness, and the basis for justification. It is 'gospel' from the bowels of hell.
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Yogi1
Squatchin
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: fivepointer]
#18923516 - 10/02/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Salvation? Of what? Is your personality, perspective, brain, and dick transcending death?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
#18923862 - 10/02/13 10:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
You can say it's brainwashing but that is realy just your opinion.
brainwashing: subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
Sorry, not just an opinion. Presenting things as facts for which their is no evidence and not allowing opposite opinions nor discussion certainly qualifies.
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Yogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#18924575 - 10/03/13 05:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
You can say it's brainwashing but that is realy just your opinion.
brainwashing: subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
Sorry, not just an opinion. Presenting things as facts for which their is no evidence and not allowing opposite opinions nor discussion certainly qualifies.

Twas "Indoctrination"?
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#18930044 - 10/04/13 08:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
You can say it's brainwashing but that is realy just your opinion.
brainwashing: subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
Sorry, not just an opinion. Presenting things as facts for which their is no evidence and not allowing opposite opinions nor discussion certainly qualifies.
It's only in your opinion that I am doing that. Ironically, it appears you cannot distinguish between facts and opinions yourself.
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: fivepointer]
#18930062 - 10/04/13 08:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: I never base my assurance of salvation on how good my actions are. I base my assurance on the knowledge of the truth of the gospel, the righteousness of Christ by imputation, the witness of the Spirit with my spirit. While my actions are different then they were prior to conversion (now I have an changed heart), this is NOT a basis for assurance. I know I am saved, no matter how "bad" I am at any given moment. I do not rest in my works of goodness, but solely on Christ's righteousness. The Catholic position mixes personal "goodness", effort, grace, sacraments, and tries to mung these together to somehow arrive at a righteousness that will justify. This is justification by impartation, not by imputation. It denies the very foundation of the faith, which is justification by imputation of perfect righteousness.
The official Catholic position on assurance is that assurance of salvation is a sin, it is the "sin of assumption". How can one be thankful of salvation if they can never have any assurance of salvation? Thankful for MAYBE having salvation??
Catholics fatally err when it come to understanding God's righteousness, and the basis for justification. It is 'gospel' from the bowels of hell.
So in your opnion, what is the point of praying, studying the Bible?
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