Home | Community | Message Board

Sporeworks
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: PocketLady]
    #18889925 - 09/25/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

On th
Quote:

PocketLady said:
Look Deviate, I respect what you are saying.  And I respect your right to believe what you want.  I agree with Christian values, i.e  in the teachings of Jesus.  But I don't agree with the Christian idea of God and I definitely do not agree with the Catholic church.  I'm not at all convinced that the Catholic Church has had an overall positive impact on this world.




This isn't about you and your personal opinions regarding certain churches. I never said the catholic church had a positive or negative impact on the world overall. Look, you're free to think whatever you want but here's what I've realized. Getting too hung up on specifics (ei. the difference between this church and that church or this belief systen and that belief system) only hinders one's ability to show compassion and respect toward all people, because despite our differences we are all brothers and sisters on this planet.

If you agree with Christian values, then I want  point out that in my experience, the core of Christian values transcends the differences between individual churches. Thats why I asked if gnostics have some special prayer that they say that separates them from other Christians. Regardless of your favorite denomination, the fact remains that what matters is where one's heart is and not what church they belong to. There is absolutely no reason why one cannot learn Christian values (which you said you agree with) in a catholic context. The spiritual tools that Jesus gave us, faith, prayer, forgiveness, obeying the commandments, loving your neighbor, loving God, etc can be practiced anywhere, by anyone. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that one cannot learn these things as a catholic but must be a gnostic or whatever brand of Christianity you wish to promote. And when you say you dont agree with the Christian idea of God, what do you mean? There is not one single Christian idea of God, but rather throughout history various Christians have had various understandings of God and different insights about the nature of God. Tell me your idea of God and lets see how it stacks up. It's always easier to generalize and criticize others than present your own ideas.

Quote:


  And I think children (as I did) should have the right to make up their own minds about religion and not be force-fed whatever their parents believe in.  But that is clearly asking too much of the world at this moment in time. 




I dont know what you mean by have the right to make up their own mind. If these children disagree with something I teach them do you think they are going to get burned at the stake? Of course they have the right to make up their own mind. If you think teaching children a certain belief system takes away their right to make up their own mind, then we would have to do away with culture entirely. Whether they want to or not, adults always pass on their fundamental assumptions about reality to their children. That is the bases of society and culture. The idea of being able to make up one's own mind, is largely an illusion. It's not how humans were meant to function. We were meant to share information and values and to pass those things on to our children. Exactly how that should be done has a subjective element to it, but what makes your opinion more valid than other peoples?

Heres an example. When i wsa in the third grade, bill clinton was running for president. My school held a mock election in which the children voted. We were not told whom to vote for, we could "make up our own minds". Do you think it was mere coincidence that every single child voted for the same candidate as their parents? Now did all the parents force their children to adopt the same political beliefs? Of course not. Some of them might have but politics simply aren't particularly important to many families. Never the less, children cannot help but see the world through the eyes of their parents. What use is it in pretending that kids are making up their own minds? it is a pure lie. Religion is no different. Acting as if children possess the capacity make up their own minds about something as adult as religion, free from undue influence, is a pure lie.


Quote:

It's precisely because of Catholicism that children aren't allowed to make up their own minds. That is true freedom.




You're joking, right? And true freedom is not being able to make up one's own mind, thats illusory freedom (since past conditioning is really the determining factor in how you make up your mind).  true freedom in abidance in truth.


Edited by Deviate (09/25/13 03:53 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: fivepointer]
    #18899956 - 09/27/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Bare in mind that I am not allowed to teach them anything contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.





How do you reconcile Catholic teachings that are opposed to scripture?  Scripture warns not to follow the traditions of men, but the Word of God.





Scripture says: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.


Mary is sinless (Bible declares the only sinless one is Jesus) Where?

Assumption of Mary (Nowhere to be found in scripture) Just because something isn't in the Bible doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Forbidding to marry (Priests are forbidden to marry.  Bible states elders should be married.) http://www.truth-reason.com/2012/11/11/forbidding-to-marry/

Abstaining from meats on certain days (All foods are to be enjoyed with thankfulness) Now that just an absurd charge. Its only certain days so it does not violate the all foods are to be enjoyed with thanksgiving clause.

Priests can forgive sin (Absurd)  Now you are the one contradicting the Bible. John 20:23 states If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”  So Jesus gives the apostles the authority to forgive sins.


Purgatory (Not in scripture at all)
Again because something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Salvation by cooperative merit (Sinners have no merits, Jesus only saves sinners, those without merits)


You believe in salvation by cooperative merit also. You believe that one must come to believe (hence cooperate) in the gospel in order to be saved. If salvation wasn't by cooperative merit, what would be the point of having a Bible or a gospel? God would simply save whom he wished to save without any need for us to have any knowledge of the process, since its not something we can exercise control over anyway.


Quote:


Sacramentalism-
The Mass (Not in scripture, no church's actions can ever forgive a sin.)
Baptismal regeneration (Not in scripture, no church's actions can ever forgive a sin.)

I could go on and on, but you get my point.




Most of your questions can be answered with a simple google search.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18899972 - 09/27/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Assumption of Mary (Nowhere to be found in scripture) Just because something isn't in the Bible doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Since you put your faith on the bible how would you know that something did happen if it wasn't in there?  How would you know?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Icelander]
    #18900055 - 09/27/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well the question wasn't how would I know but rather what's wrong with believing something that's not in the Bible. I think it's simple, the Bible is not the only standard for deciding what is true or untrue. For example, take the story of Noah's Ark. Somehow I doubt that happened exactly as the Bible tells it. When the reformation happened, there was no longer any united authority for interpreting the Bible, so the idea of "Bible alone" became very popular. As unfortunate effect of this was that people began taking the Bible literally, because after all, the idea of Bible alone makes a lot more sense if the Bible is literally true. If instead the Bible is myth, then interpreting it correctly becomes a lot more difficult, something that would be beyond the scope of the average person's ability. But the need for an interpreter doesn't jive well with the idea of Bible alone, so the Bible was accepted as literal truth among many of the reformed churches.

As for your question about how I do know about the assumption of Mary, I don't know. It is a doctrine of the catholic church, which is based off a few things, such as the fact that there is no gravesite and no relics of Mary, even though in those days relics of saints were highly prized. But I don't know for sure. It is possible Mary was not assumed into heaven and the church is wrong.


Edited by Deviate (09/27/13 07:01 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18900061 - 09/27/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that there's nothing wrong with believing things that aren't in the bible. I also agree that the things in the bible may or may not be accurate.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18900247 - 09/27/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Mary was supposed to have been assumed bodily into heaven, in 1950. Jung analyzed the psychology of this doctrine to mean that although Mary did not become a part of the Trinity, formally, the doctrine did suggest a feminine aspect to the two masculine and one neuter genders of father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A Quaternity lacks the dynamism that threeness suggests, but at the same time, a wholeness is suggested by a square over a triangle. There have been other attempts to add the Eternal Feminine into the Trinitarian Godhead, I think maybe the Orthodox theologian Sergi Bulgakov may have been accused of heresy by suggesting a dynamic hyposthesis of Sophia (Wisdom) interconnecting the three hypostheses.

The Trinity is not in the Bible either. Jesus would not accept any such theoretical nonsense as this doctrine had he been asked. This developed out of Neo-Platonic notions from the 3rd century. Augustine had been a Neo-Platonist and a Manichean before going Christian. He merely changed the names of One, Nous, and Anima Mundi to Father, Son, Holy Spirit, following Tertullian's coining of the word 'trinity.' The Greek Orthodox already had Plotinus among their 3rd century philosophers, and Pseudo-Dionysius became a very influential Christian Neo-Platonist. He built on Plotinus and the Bible just as Tertullian came up with 'trinity' because of three names of God in the NT.

If instead the Bible is myth, then interpreting it correctly becomes a lot more difficult, something that would be beyond the scope of the average person's ability. But the need for an interpreter doesn't jive well with the idea of Bible alone, so the Bible was accepted as literal truth among many of the reformed churches.

This is true to a certain extent. The myths are presented to the multitudes as history, because the multitudes are locked into fairly concrete thinking (Piaget's Concrete Operational Thought). Maybe 50% of Americans function in Formal Operational Thought, in which logic can be applied to ideas themselves rather than simply uncritically accepting ideas, hook, line, and sinker. I am not being elitist here. Abstract thinkers exist, and have always existed, in much lower numbers than concrete thinkers. The average person of the 2nd century must have been considerably more 'concrete' than today's average person (except perhaps for 21st century literalist Christians). Even sophisticated thinkers like Celsus understood this, and questioned the uniqueness of the Christian mythos. He was not an "average person" and he lived during the 3rd century. The Church Father Origen felt sufficiently intimidated by the Neo-Platonist Celsus that he wrote Contra Celsus. The attempt to create one universal church failed in the political sense, and regardless of the average (or lss than average) Bible banger, the myths are handled very differently throughout Christendom. The Gnostics of course have a greater range of conceptions, everything from an historical Christ to a Docetic Christ (with a phantom body) to Christ as a purely spiritual entity that descends on Jesus at his baptism, and leaves him on the cross. Others view the entire drama as myth, but draw just as much faith for living as those who insist on a historical Jesus and a magickal Resurrection and Ascension.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18901078 - 09/27/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Maybe 50% of Americans function in Formal Operational Thought, in which logic can be applied to ideas themselves rather than simply uncritically accepting ideas, hook, line, and sinker.




I wonder what that would look like plot on a map. :strokebeard:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18901232 - 09/28/13 12:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Mary was supposed to have been assumed bodily into heaven, in 1950. Jung analyzed the psychology of this doctrine to mean that although Mary did not become a part of the Trinity, formally, the doctrine did suggest a feminine aspect to the two masculine and one neuter genders of father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A Quaternity lacks the dynamism that threeness suggests, but at the same time, a wholeness is suggested by a square over a triangle. There have been other attempts to add the Eternal Feminine into the Trinitarian Godhead, I think maybe the Orthodox theologian Sergi Bulgakov may have been accused of heresy by suggesting a dynamic hyposthesis of Sophia (Wisdom) interconnecting the three hypostheses.




Mary does add a feminine aspect, which I became aware of through prayiner the Rosary. I realized that when I prayed the rosary, I was in invoking a different, feminine energy, then what is invoked when I pray to Jesus or the father. This in my opinion is one of the things which makes Catholic and Orthodox CHristianity spiritually superior to protestant CHristianity. Sure you can argue that the catholic church is a male dominated sexist organization, but at least it recognizes the divine feminine in its practices whereas the protestants look at praying to Mary as heretical. In my experience, devotion to Mary and use of her rosary has been invaluable in creating balance in my spiritual life, something which cannot be achieved if the divine is conceived of only in masculine ways.

Quote:


The Trinity is not in the Bible either. Jesus would not accept any such theoretical nonsense as this doctrine had he been asked. This developed out of Neo-Platonic notions from the 3rd century. Augustine had been a Neo-Platonist and a Manichean before going Christian. He merely changed the names of One, Nous, and Anima Mundi to Father, Son, Holy Spirit, following Tertullian's coining of the word 'trinity.' The Greek Orthodox already had Plotinus among their 3rd century philosophers, and Pseudo-Dionysius became a very influential Christian Neo-Platonist. He built on Plotinus and the Bible just as Tertullian came up with 'trinity' because of three names of God in the NT.




The word trinity isn't in the Bible but Jesus does say to baptize in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit.

Quote:



This is true to a certain extent. The myths are presented to the multitudes as history, because the multitudes are locked into fairly concrete thinking (Piaget's Concrete Operational Thought). Maybe 50% of Americans function in Formal Operational Thought, in which logic can be applied to ideas themselves rather than simply uncritically accepting ideas, hook, line, and sinker. I am not being elitist here. Abstract thinkers exist, and have always existed, in much lower numbers than concrete thinkers. The average person of the 2nd century must have been considerably more 'concrete' than today's average person (except perhaps for 21st century literalist Christians). Even sophisticated thinkers like Celsus understood this, and questioned the uniqueness of the Christian mythos. He was not an "average person" and he lived during the 3rd century. The Church Father Origen felt sufficiently intimidated by the Neo-Platonist Celsus that he wrote Contra Celsus. The attempt to create one universal church failed in the political sense, and regardless of the average (or lss than average) Bible banger, the myths are handled very differently throughout Christendom. The Gnostics of course have a greater range of conceptions, everything from an historical Christ to a Docetic Christ (with a phantom body) to Christ as a purely spiritual entity that descends on Jesus at his baptism, and leaves him on the cross. Others view the entire drama as myth, but draw just as much faith for living as those who insist on a historical Jesus and a magickal Resurrection and Ascension.




I have noticed that many people lack the ability to think critically about ideas. I would call them assumptions. They accept them so uncritically, that it doesnt even occur to them that they are making assumptions that I might not share, nor does it occur to them that their assumptions might be incorrect.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecez
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18901271 - 09/28/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest.:sad:
It'd make for nice structure.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: cez]
    #18901279 - 09/28/13 01:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest.:sad:
It'd make for nice structure.




praise slack



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18901316 - 09/28/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.




How better to progress to a healthier humanity than to stick to the same old fly traps?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #18901382 - 09/28/13 02:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

fly traps?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18901817 - 09/28/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

cez said:
I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest.:sad:
It'd make for nice structure.




praise slack





:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePocketLady
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18901843 - 09/28/13 08:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

cez said:
I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest.:sad:
It'd make for nice structure.




praise slack








"In the year 1166 B.C., a malcontented hunchbrain by the name of Greyface, got it into his head that the universe was as humorless as he, and he began to teach that play was sinful because it contradicted the ways of Serious Order. "Look at all the order around you," he said. And from that, he deluded honest men to believe that reality was a straightjacket affair and not the happy romance as men had known it.

It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular time, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the disorder around them and conclude just the opposite. But anyway, Greyface and his followers took the game of playing at life more seriously than they took life itself and were known even to destroy other living beings whose ways of life differed from their own.

The unfortunate result of this is that mankind has since been suffering from a psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and frustration causes fear. And fear makes for a bad trip. Man has been on a bad trip for a long time now.

It is called THE CURSE OF GREYFACE."


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: cez]
    #18902156 - 09/28/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest.:sad:
It'd make for nice structure.



the book is your heart

do what you love is all you need
then the books you need will come automatically, you rarely have to buy them either

but there are probably many interesting books about personal development too
haven't read any, except the power of now .. that one I like, someone gave me it


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18902651 - 09/28/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

cez said:
I sometimes wish I could be bound by one book for spiritual/psychological rest.:sad:
It'd make for nice structure.




praise slack






Behold!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16555179/The-Book-of-the-Subgenius


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18903008 - 09/28/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:


Salvation by cooperative merit (Sinners have no merits, Jesus only saves sinners, those without merits)


Quote:

Deviate said:
You believe in salvation by cooperative merit also. You believe that one must come to believe (hence cooperate) in the gospel in order to be saved. If salvation wasn't by cooperative merit, what would be the point of having a Bible or a gospel? God would simply save whom he wished to save without any need for us to have any knowledge of the process, since its not something we can exercise control over anyway.








I think you misunderstand my position on this.  Faith has no meritorious value.  Saving faith is a gift of God.  Saving faith can't be generated by a mere act of the will due to man's bondage to sin.  Regeneration, conversion, faith, repentance, the new man, are gifts from above.  Saving faith receives what has already been given.  God has ordained that every one He is going to save will in time come to faith.  No one is saved apart from conversion.  God from eternity past has determined to save a people for Himself, despite who they are, not because of the things that they do.  Sinners bring nothing to the table.  Justification is by imputation, Christ's righteousness alone, apart from any works of sinners.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: fivepointer]
    #18904946 - 09/28/13 10:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:


Salvation by cooperative merit (Sinners have no merits, Jesus only saves sinners, those without merits)


Quote:

Deviate said:
You believe in salvation by cooperative merit also. You believe that one must come to believe (hence cooperate) in the gospel in order to be saved. If salvation wasn't by cooperative merit, what would be the point of having a Bible or a gospel? God would simply save whom he wished to save without any need for us to have any knowledge of the process, since its not something we can exercise control over anyway.








I think you misunderstand my position on this.  Faith has no meritorious value.  Saving faith is a gift of God.  Saving faith can't be generated by a mere act of the will due to man's bondage to sin.  Regeneration, conversion, faith, repentance, the new man, are gifts from above.  Saving faith receives what has already been given.  God has ordained that every one He is going to save will in time come to faith.  No one is saved apart from conversion.  God from eternity past has determined to save a people for Himself, despite who they are, not because of the things that they do.  Sinners bring nothing to the table.  Justification is by imputation, Christ's righteousness alone, apart from any works of sinners.




Yes, that is true but from our incorrect point of view it is necessary to conceive of such ideas as merit.

Basically you are taking a hard determinist position, which I don't disagree with. I don't disagree that those who are to be saved, have already been chosen by God. But because we experience ourselves as having free will and having the freedom to choose to serve God or the devil, we must strive to choose to serve God. At the end, when all is revealed by God to us, we may in fact see that what you are saying is true. We may see that every time we made a good choice, it wasn't actually us that did it, but God's grace and the whole time we thought we were striving to turn from our evil ways to make a place in our souls for Christ, we might see that it was actually just a process completely orchestrated by God.

But because that is not our experience right now, we must hold in our mind ideas about right and wrong, merit and demerit, good and evil, etc. Its like if you knew that you were predesitined to become a lawyer, would you enroll in law school? You might, but someone else in your shoes might say, why bother? I am predestined to be a lawyer. I cannot escape that fate. So why do I need to study law? No matter what I do, somehow I am going to end up being a lawyer. WOuld you not agree that that is the wrong approach to take the gospel? And yet, if salvation has nothing to do with our choices, then there is no reason I couldnt burn my Bible and go on a killing spree tomorrow. The gospel is supposed to provide us with motivation to change our lives and turn from our wicked ways. Your version of the gospel does not do that. It says that we cannot affect our salvation, so we might as well go on being wicked. Of course you would say that no, we are supposed to be good out of thankfulness for our gift of salvation. Well, ok, how good do I have to be? Can I get away with a little wickedness here or a little there? It shouldn't matter really, because my eternal salvation has already been decided. All you can say is that if I am not thankful and desiring to do good maybe I wasnt saved. But this is the stupid, confusing aspect of your doctrine. It doesn't necessarily happen overnight whereby you turn from being filled with sin and evil desire to becoming a saint who gives thanks to God everywhere and always. And that is the point of catholocism, it gives us motivation and tools to use to help us along the way. Instead, you want it to be either or. If its either or then why do I need to worry about what I do? the you should be thankful argument fails because it doesn't tell me how thankful I need to be. I mean, you basically end up in the exact same boat as you do with catholocism. You start questioning whether you are saved or not by how thankful you feel and how good your actions are. If thats the case, then your gospel cannot offer any more assurance of salvation than mine.

The good thing about the catholic gospel is that it doesnt allow for the complete moral degradation of double predestination whereby one is completely removed from the eternal consequences of their actions by a pre-determined outcome.



Do you see what I'm saying? As long as you feel that you are in control of your life, you have to accept that there are benefits (merits) to following God rather than living according to your own whims. You cannot deny that the Bible teaches us to obey God's commandments and avoid evil doing. Why does it say this if it has nothing to do with salvation?

Your position just doesn't make any sense.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18922759 - 10/02/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I never base my assurance of salvation on how good my actions are.  I base my assurance on the knowledge of the truth of the gospel, the righteousness of Christ by imputation, the witness of the Spirit with my spirit.  While my actions are different then they were prior to conversion (now I have an changed heart), this is NOT a basis for assurance.  I know I am saved, no matter how "bad" I am at any given moment.  I do not rest in my works of goodness, but solely on Christ's righteousness.  The Catholic position mixes personal "goodness", effort, grace, sacraments, and tries to mung these together to somehow arrive at a righteousness that will justify.  This is justification by impartation, not by imputation.  It denies the very foundation of the faith, which is justification by imputation of perfect righteousness.

The official Catholic position on assurance is that assurance of salvation is a sin, it is the "sin of assumption".  How can one be thankful of salvation if they can never have any assurance of salvation?  Thankful for MAYBE having salvation??

Catholics fatally err when it come to understanding God's righteousness, and the basis for justification.  It is 'gospel' from the bowels of hell.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: fivepointer]
    #18923516 - 10/02/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Salvation? Of what? Is your personality, perspective, brain, and dick transcending death?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Good Friday Experiment -- Do psychedelics have religious import? Asante 2,102 3 04/14/06 12:36 PM
by Wysefool
* Epic religious experience that I must share; Dark_Star 4,487 17 02/15/07 03:16 AM
by slaphappy
* So I met this religious fanatic tonight...
( 1 2 all )
slamdunk 4,228 24 01/30/10 07:21 PM
by RaiseTheDead
* Any Religious People ? bobby87 1,385 18 08/26/06 10:15 AM
by leery11
* Drug-Induced Religious Experiences threadstarter 4,513 18 03/22/07 12:36 PM
by Ego Death
* Animal Sacrifices for Religious Purposes Skeptikos 1,293 11 04/03/06 03:45 PM
by MushmanTheManic
* Got a death threat from religous nutjobs. Grok 2,722 17 02/03/07 05:38 PM
by Zepplin
* The Next Christianity spud 5,640 16 01/30/06 03:54 PM
by Gliders

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
6,079 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.