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Offlineevileye001
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easy substright for monotub tek
    #18855778 - 09/17/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

im looking for a easy substrate for a monotub tek.

from the procedure it seems that contams are not much of a problem. yes they try to keep sterile but really how can u keep a large tub, plastic bags, ponds of substrate and involved hands sterile? inless u can sterilize and set everything up in a few seconds...

after lurking for a while here and google there are very little detailed monotub tek instructions. u really have to take bits and peaces from all teks to get a good understanding. witch i have.

most of them say "using ur substrate" and im assuming that u can use what ever substrate u wish. but i dont know if its broader then whats used to make ur jars. how picky must u be when choosing my substrate? throw in manure and it will be fine? potting soil would work? hell i dono.

iv got a few pounds of brown rice flower and vermiculite from pf tek jars. would a simple pf tek prep work? would i have to sterilize pounds of pf tek to use or could i just mix and put in my tub with a layer of dry vermiculite on top?

advice, links, general info?

:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18855787 - 09/17/13 10:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I have a hard time believing you have searched for hours and are only at this point.

Bulk substrate isn't sterile, it is pasteurized.


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17897371#17897371

Read: how to pasteurize, how he makes his tubs.

and here is another one

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14722933#14722933


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Invisibleazur
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18855838 - 09/17/13 10:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Stranger, then you.
Hmmmm.  Odd.
This topic is so...um, maybe you'll understand this better:  Blah, blah, blah, blah, ...
OK. Just had to mess with you since you're not stranger than anyone.

Coir/verm
Hpoo/verm
Coir/hpoo/verm
Cow poo/straw/verm

Handful of gypsum in and 30-40% verm. Fill in the blanks for the coir or whatever you choose to use.


--------------------


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FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!



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Invisibletbagtag
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18855844 - 09/17/13 10:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Click the grow along link in my thread.  I just spawned my tubs today.  It provides adapted teks from both FH and TL.  It also shows these teks in action by me in real time.  In there I will show you how to make substrate using coir, vermiculite, and gypsum as well as how to pasteurize it.


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Offlineevileye001
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18855852 - 09/17/13 10:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

tanks for the direct link.

but what i dont understand is why is sterile worse the pasteurized? wouldent it give the inoculated substrate less to have to fight off and become the only organism in the tub?

pasteurizing seems harder then sterilizing... seems counter productive.

just looking to the best source for the best answers plz forgive my noobness


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we are the universe contemplating its self.



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Offlineevileye001
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: azur]
    #18855869 - 09/17/13 10:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
Stranger, then you.
Hmmmm.  Odd.
This topic is so...um, maybe you'll understand this better:  Blah, blah, blah, blah, ...
OK. Just had to mess with you since you're not stranger than anyone.

Coir/verm
Hpoo/verm
Coir/hpoo/verm
Cow poo/straw/verm

Handful of gypsum in and 30-40% verm. Fill in the blanks for the coir or whatever you choose to use.




:takingnotes:

trial and error... log time! thanks for the recipy.

prity much anything will work...

im gana try miracle grow! not really... but maby in the future...


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Invisibleazur
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18855880 - 09/17/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

First time doing it use coir/verm/gypsum
                                          60/40/handful
Properly pasteurize in jars.  No bucket trek bullshit.


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FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!



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Invisibletbagtag
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18855886 - 09/17/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

evileye001 said:
tanks for the direct link.

but what i dont understand is why is sterile worse the pasteurized? wouldent it give the inoculated substrate less to have to fight off and become the only organism in the tub?

pasteurizing seems harder then sterilizing... seems counter productive.

just looking to the best source for the best answers plz forgive my noobness




Pasteurization for bulk substrates kills the harmful bacteria and allow helpful bacteria to thrive and aids in mycelium colonization.  Sterilization kills everything that is on the substrate, which could potentially allow for something nasty to take over.  Each type of substrate will require different temperature ranges.  This is why coir is a recommended starter bulk sub.  It is naturally contam resistant and if accidentally sterilized could still yield results.

Once you start adding other additives though you increase the chance of contamination if sterilizing.


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Offlineevileye001
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: tbagtag]
    #18855929 - 09/17/13 10:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tbagtag said:
Quote:

evileye001 said:
tanks for the direct link.

but what i dont understand is why is sterile worse the pasteurized? wouldent it give the inoculated substrate less to have to fight off and become the only organism in the tub?

pasteurizing seems harder then sterilizing... seems counter productive.

just looking to the best source for the best answers plz forgive my noobness




Pasteurization for bulk substrates kills the harmful bacteria and allow helpful bacteria to thrive and aids in mycelium colonization.  Sterilization kills everything that is on the substrate, which could potentially allow for something nasty to take over.  Each type of substrate will require different temperature ranges.  This is why coir is a recommended starter bulk sub.  It is naturally contam resistant and if accidentally sterilized could still yield results.

Once you start adding other additives though you increase the chance of contamination if sterilizing.




so pasteurising kills bad bacteria but not good bacteria? :confused:

i didnt think earths bacteria was evolved to withstand temps that they could survive to aide in shroom growth that bad couldent.

and if so why wouldent u pasteurize substriate for inoculation instead of sterilize?

not being a smart ass i just dont understand.


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Offlineevileye001
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18855940 - 09/17/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

gezz it seems like just fruiting my cakes would be easier at this rate.

i wanted to take it to another level but it seems to be on a different plane on its own. im not giving up but i need to research more and mabey weight a few more grows.

thank goodness for the shroomery.


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Invisibletbagtag
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18855988 - 09/17/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

evileye001 said:
Quote:

tbagtag said:
Quote:

evileye001 said:
tanks for the direct link.

but what i dont understand is why is sterile worse the pasteurized? wouldent it give the inoculated substrate less to have to fight off and become the only organism in the tub?

pasteurizing seems harder then sterilizing... seems counter productive.

just looking to the best source for the best answers plz forgive my noobness




Pasteurization for bulk substrates kills the harmful bacteria and allow helpful bacteria to thrive and aids in mycelium colonization.  Sterilization kills everything that is on the substrate, which could potentially allow for something nasty to take over.  Each type of substrate will require different temperature ranges.  This is why coir is a recommended starter bulk sub.  It is naturally contam resistant and if accidentally sterilized could still yield results.

Once you start adding other additives though you increase the chance of contamination if sterilizing.




so pasteurising kills bad bacteria but not good bacteria? :confused:

i didnt think earths bacteria was evolved to withstand temps that they could survive to aide in shroom growth that bad couldent.

and if so why wouldent u pasteurize substriate for inoculation instead of sterilize?

not being a smart ass i just dont understand.




I don't think you're being a smart ass, but bacteria are one of the oldest and most evolved organisms in the terms of survival.  Just like various mammals they will thrive or die at certain temperatures, just like a camel couldn't survive the Artic and a polar bear would most likely die in the Sahara.

Symbiotic relationships also exist in every facet of living organisms.  Think clown fish and anemone's they can't talk to each other but rely on one another for survival.  A mycology example of this would be Morels are found in my area, but only on a specific type of tree, other areas may not have this issue.  But I can go to the same patch every year and find wild morels.

Lastly, we inoculate grain and spawn to substrate.  We also sterilize grain due to endospores which can produce molds or other competing fungus.  When cultivating indoors we do not have all the luxury that nature offers so we have to work within semi-flexible parameters.  We create an environment that could be conducive to any decomposing organism, we just want to limit the risk that the ones we dont want dont show up.


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Invisibleazur
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18855995 - 09/17/13 10:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It really doesn't get any easier than a monotub.


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!



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Invisibletbagtag
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: azur]
    #18856011 - 09/17/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
It really doesn't get any easier than a monotub.




Also this.  Honestly to me, the work on cakes is not worth it and is just as time consuming.  It is a lot to take in at first, but its really an easy process.

Sterilize grains
Inoculate
Wait
Either spawn or preferably g2g your best jar
????
Get 10x as many mushrooms off the same syringe or culture as you would have for cakes.


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Offlineevileye001
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: tbagtag]
    #18856090 - 09/17/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tbagtag said:
Quote:

evileye001 said:
Quote:

tbagtag said:
Quote:

evileye001 said:
tanks for the direct link.

but what i dont understand is why is sterile worse the pasteurized? wouldent it give the inoculated substrate less to have to fight off and become the only organism in the tub?

pasteurizing seems harder then sterilizing... seems counter productive.

just looking to the best source for the best answers plz forgive my noobness




Pasteurization for bulk substrates kills the harmful bacteria and allow helpful bacteria to thrive and aids in mycelium colonization.  Sterilization kills everything that is on the substrate, which could potentially allow for something nasty to take over.  Each type of substrate will require different temperature ranges.  This is why coir is a recommended starter bulk sub.  It is naturally contam resistant and if accidentally sterilized could still yield results.

Once you start adding other additives though you increase the chance of contamination if sterilizing.




so pasteurising kills bad bacteria but not good bacteria? :confused:

i didnt think earths bacteria was evolved to withstand temps that they could survive to aide in shroom growth that bad couldent.

and if so why wouldent u pasteurize substriate for inoculation instead of sterilize?

not being a smart ass i just dont understand.




I don't think you're being a smart ass, but bacteria are one of the oldest and most evolved organisms in the terms of survival.  Just like various mammals they will thrive or die at certain temperatures, just like a camel couldn't survive the Artic and a polar bear would most likely die in the Sahara.

Symbiotic relationships also exist in every facet of living organisms.  Think clown fish and anemone's they can't talk to each other but rely on one another for survival.  A mycology example of this would be Morels are found in my area, but only on a specific type of tree, other areas may not have this issue.  But I can go to the same patch every year and find wild morels.

Lastly, we inoculate grain and spawn to substrate.  We also sterilize grain due to endospores which can produce molds or other competing fungus.  When cultivating indoors we do not have all the luxury that nature offers so we have to work within semi-flexible parameters.  We create an environment that could be conducive to any decomposing organism, we just want to limit the risk that the ones we dont want dont show up.




i understand where ur coming from but to be honest all u did was bounce around the question.

i still think there is more going on here even if u are right (not saying ur wrong by all means) but really?

Quote:

tbagtag said:
Lastly, we inoculate grain and spawn to substrate.  We also sterilize grain due to endospores which can produce molds or other competing fungus.  When cultivating indoors we do not have all the luxury that nature offers so we have to work within semi-flexible parameters.  We create an environment that could be conducive to any decomposing organism, we just want to limit the risk that the ones we dont want dont show up.
pasteurize it.




sounds like sterile is better.

Quote:

tbagtag said:
Quote:

azur said:
It really doesn't get any easier than a monotub.




Also this.  Honestly to me, the work on cakes is not worth it and is just as time consuming.  It is a lot to take in at first, but its really an easy process.

Sterilize grains
Inoculate
Wait
Either spawn or preferably g2g your best jar
????
Get 10x as many mushrooms off the same syringe or culture as you would have for cakes.




yea i got 4 pints of jars ready to go thats not the part im talking about.

if i can get this sterilize/pasteurize and why its better or worse or why u need that prep down ill be ok.

seems u need to prep, loosen, heat, check, boil, time, recheck, check agen, set temp, time, visit mars to do right.

if not try agen...

im shure its not so complicated.

lol not enough details or far to in depth.


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18856169 - 09/17/13 11:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If you find a way to sterilize the tub, let me know and I'll start doing it.  Until then, pasteurization is king.

In answer to your earlier question, one of the reasons thermophiles (the bacteria that evolved to thrive at high temperatures) work so well with our mycelium is that they DON'T do very well at room temperature.  They colonize the surface of a substrate, and in so doing they keep spores of molds and other, more harmful bacteria from germinating.  But an established fungus can easily defeat and replace them, and this is why the stuff you've grown on grains up to the point of spawning to bulk takes over the substrate so rapidly and why it's pretty much game over when a mold contaminant establishes itself on your substrate.


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OfflineTheReckoning
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: Psilicon]
    #18856245 - 09/17/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It might be a lot to take in at first from reading, but once you try it you'll find that the process is pretty simple and straightforward.

Choose substrate recipe
Bring to field capacity
Pasteurize
Wait to cool
Mix with spawn
Wait until colonized


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Offlineevileye001
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: Psilicon]
    #18856267 - 09/18/13 12:00 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
If you find a way to sterilize the tub, let me know and I'll start doing it.  Until then, pasteurization is king.

In answer to your earlier question, one of the reasons thermophiles (the bacteria that evolved to thrive at high temperatures) work so well with our mycelium is that they DON'T do very well at room temperature.  They colonize the surface of a substrate, and in so doing they keep spores of molds and other, more harmful bacteria from germinating.  But an established fungus can easily defeat and replace them, and this is why the stuff you've grown on grains up to the point of spawning to bulk takes over the substrate so rapidly and why it's pretty much game over when a mold contaminant establishes itself on your substrate.




now thats what im talking about.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

pasteurizing seems to be a very exact science thow


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Edited by evileye001 (09/18/13 12:02 AM)


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18856299 - 09/18/13 12:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thermophilic bacteria (heat-loving) is as common as a sunny day and exists almost everywhere on earth.

Pasteurization allows thermophilic bacteria to thrive while also killing other bacteria and mold spores.

A pasteurized substrate is resistant to contams while a sterilized substrate is prone to them.

Since we like to pasteurize bulk substrate, this allows you to spawn in open air, without using much or any sterile technique. We prefer to do this with bulk substrate.

You can spawn to sterile substrate, but as with any sterile media you will need to keep it aseptic. This means using good sterile technique and not allowing your spawn or substrate to come into contact with mold spores/"bad" bacteria/open air until fully colonized.

This should explain all about sterile/pasteurized substrate. My sig has many write ups that I have done, which explain the process in more detail.

:goodluck:


--------------------

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You should take a look. :hehehe:


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Offlineevileye001
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18856316 - 09/18/13 12:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

very good info

only question left is why is pasteurizes substrate not better for inoculation?

sounds like sterile would suck compares to pasteurized when inoculating ur jars...


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: easy substright for monotub tek [Re: evileye001]
    #18856347 - 09/18/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, you are asking about why we do not pasteurize grains?

Grains have a very high nutrient and sugar content.

Pasteurization will not prevent contams on grains. You need to sterilize, ensuring that the bacteria as well as the mold spores are killed.

It's the same reason you sterilize PF cakes (Brown rice flour + verm).

BTW, I love your sig :rofl:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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