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OrgoneConclusion
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Why didn't he pray for his son?
#18853924 - 09/17/13 02:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/06/church-pastor-rick-warrens-son-commits-suicide/2059193/
Rick Warren, pastor of one of the largest evangelical churches in America, lost his son in April to suicide.
"Gee Dad, I know I am going to heaven, so why wait?" said pastor junior.
I guess there is no harm in delusional beliefs. At least the Warrens demonstrated the healing power of Christ... NOT!
Reap what you sow, bitches! Jeebus hates him some false profits.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/06/church-pastor-rick-warrens-son-commits-suicide/2059193/
Rick Warren, pastor of one of the largest evangelical churches in America, lost his son in April to suicide.
"Gee Dad, I know I am going to heaven, so why wait?" said pastor junior.
I guess there is no harm in delusional beliefs. At least the Warrens demonstrated the healing power of Christ... NOT!
Reap what you sow, bitches! Jeebus hates him some false profits.
Hey he's in a mother fucking better place forever.
You just don't get it.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#18853990 - 09/17/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:

btw love your new avatar. it's bad. fab?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#18854012 - 09/17/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You need a new acronym.
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
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Wait, how do you know what his son's religious affiliation was? Perhaps it was actually his inability to find a belief system that effectively shielded him from the horrors of everyday life that lead him to the grave. Some people need that superstitious comfort to survive, not everyone is as strong as you ya know.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Cactilove]
#18854042 - 09/17/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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What was Lazarus religious affiliation when he was raised from the dead and what has that to do with the alleged power of prayer?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: You need a new acronym.
WHY?
(Wise Hell Yeah)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#18854169 - 09/17/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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What does A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. stand for?
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
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The previous statement has little to do with the prayer aspect of religion and has more to do with the function of religion in some people's lives. Now, I suppose we can touch on prayer. Any reasonable and sane person can see that prayer has little power on external events, but that's not to say the power of prayer does not exist. The pastor may have and may continue to pray for his son and in doing so may have achieved a level of psychological comfort, then again perhaps he hasn't. I know for a fact that prayer can bring a sense of peace into one's own life. It may be in the same way a murderer justifies the killing of his victim in order to deal with the psychological trauma involved in taking another's life, but it still allows the murderer to deal with the event that occurred. In other words it may or may not be a lie, but if you believe it regardless it can undoubtedly have beneficial results for the believer.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: What does A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. stand for?
A Crony Man?
Reminds me I gotta do some laundry.
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57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#18865231 - 09/19/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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What the Warrens believe is that Jesus's will was done. if that meant their son is with Jesus now, (in their belief) then they are at peace with that.
it is obviously not what you believe, but then again, why do care what the Warrens and all the congregation believe? I don't get your vitriol and obsession to continually bash these believers.
I certainly don't, they can believe what they wish; as can a Hindu, a Sikh, a Buddhist, or a Hippie.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71] 2
#18865300 - 09/19/13 09:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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A Truth Seeker should by name seek The Truth, but that is not what the religious do. They swallow what they have been told. That is not what a brain is for.
No harm? Some 70% of all American males are circumcised against their will because of retarded religious superstition. Millions put in prison over the use of plants and fungi because it offends certain religions. Shit in the Middle East - almost entirely based on religious differences. The hypocrisy and damage goes on and on.
Why do I care what others believe? Because my life gets negatively affected by their moronic and unsubstantiated ideas.
Clear enough?
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57-71
Stranger


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: A Truth Seeker should by name seek The Truth, but that is not what the religious do. They swallow what they have been told. That is not what a brain is for.
No harm? Some 70% of all American males are circumcised against their will because of retarded religious superstition. Millions put in prison over the use of plants and fungi because it offends certain religions. Shit in the Middle East - almost entirely based on religious differences. The hypocrisy and damage goes on and on.
Why do I care what others believe? Because my life gets negatively affected by their moronic and unsubstantiated ideas.
Clear enough?
Not clear at all.
How one seeks a truth, and what they perceive to be a truth, are matters beyond our judgement. If one does not wish to exercise their right to use their brain, who are you to condemn them? Do you wish to take on the role of a Christ in preaching against those believers and the writings?
The damage and hypocrisy have been with us for tens of thousands of years, and if religion disappeared tomorrow, people would find a substitute to use a means to subjugate another person or group. That is human nature and religion is a means to an end.
Circumcised against their will is a real stretch. They are too young to have a will, legally. Someone in control of the infant authorized the procedure. Blame the state for brainwashing medicine and people that this is necessary - I agree with you it is not.
I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.
My life is negatively affected by moronic people every day. They come from all walks of life, have all number of occupations, and believe in a great number of different gods, some even no god. However, they live here too. So I either take up a war to rid the earth of them, or accept that they are here an co-habit the best way possible. Capish?
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18865834 - 09/20/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.
God bless America!
It always surprise me how people believe Islam is the only religious warfare in the world.
Religions deny freedom to the extent possible.
freedom
noun 1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint 2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc. 3. the power to determine action without restraint. 4. political or national independence. (contradicts the other definitions when looking at national politics worldwide.) 5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18867338 - 09/20/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.
When the Spanish conquistadors took over Mexico and Central America, Franciscan priests spread the Christian teachings. The natives said they did not need an intermediary to God when they could speak directly to him under the influence of teonanacatl (magic mushrooms). Shortly thereafter the Franciscans made it a capital offense to partake of mushrooms.
Alcohol prohibition was certainly funded and backed by churches. They put enormous pressure on politicians.
As to marijuana, how many atheists would call it 'The Devil's Weed'? The whole idea that ingesting some plants is moral and other plants is immoral is certainly based on religious belief.
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57-71
Stranger


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.
When the Spanish conquistadors took over Mexico and Central America, Franciscan priests spread the Christian teachings. The natives said they did not need an intermediary to God when they could speak directly to him under the influence of teonanacatl (magic mushrooms). Shortly thereafter the Franciscans made it a capital offense to partake of mushrooms.
Alcohol prohibition was certainly funded and backed by churches. They put enormous pressure on politicians.
As to marijuana, how many atheists would call it 'The Devil's Weed'? The whole idea that ingesting some plants is moral and other plants is immoral is certainly based on religious belief.
Seriously? Conquistadors? riiiiight.
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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


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It's not like it would've worked.
Quote:
Dead Pa. baby's dad believes in 'divine healing'
PHILADELPHIA (AP) — After their 2-year-old son died of untreated pneumonia in 2009, faith-healing advocates Herbert and Catherine Schaible promised a judge they would not let another sick child go without medical care.
But now they've lost an 8-month-old to what a prosecutor called "eerily similar" circumstances. And instead of another involuntary manslaughter charge, they're now charged with third-degree murder.
"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives after their ninth child, Brandon, died in April. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."
The Schaibles were ordered held without bail Friday, two days after their arrest, although defense lawyers argued that they are neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community.
"He is incarcerated because of his faith," said lawyer Bobby Hoof, who described client Herbert Schaible's mindset as resolute.
"He's strong willed," Hoof said. "(Yet) he's mourning this son. He's hurting as any dad would."
The only people theoretically at risk are the couple's seven surviving children, who are now in foster care, the lawyers said.
A judge acknowledged that the couple had never missed a court date in the first case but said he worried that might change amid the more serious charges. And he feared they may have supporters who would harbor them.
"Throughout this country … there are churches like the Schaibles' whose members and leaders probably don't think they did anything wrong and might be willing — to paraphrase the Schaibles' pastor — to put their interpretation of God's will above the law," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said.
About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine, typically from highly treatable problems, said Shawn Francis Peters, a University of Wisconsin lecturer who has studied faith-healing deaths.
In Oregon, four couples from a faith-healing church have been prosecuted, the most recent in 2011 when a couple was sentenced to more than six years in prison for manslaughter in the death of their newborn son.
The state legislature that year removed faith healing as a defense to murder charges. Members of the Followers of Christ have consistently refused to speak with journalists.
Defense lawyer Mark Cogan declined to comment Friday on whether the legal actions have changed the practice of any church members. Some testified at the 2011 trial that they do get medical care.
At the Schaibles' sentencing in February 2011 in their son Kent's death, they agreed to follow terms of the 10-year probation, which included an order to get their children regular checkups and sick visits as needed. Catherine Schaible, 43, let her husband speak for her and never addressed the judge.
"It's very clear that the law says that religious freedom is trumped by the safety of a child," Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin explained.
But a transcript of a later probation hearing that year shows probation officers were confused by their mandate to oversee the required medical care and felt powerless to carry it out. The family was not being monitored by child-welfare workers, who are more accustomed to dealing with medical compliance.
"I think that we all on the jury thought that it would not happen again, that whatever social and legal institutions needed to be involved in their situation would just take over … and that the mandated visits would be robust enough that they would not be able to do this again," Vincent Bertolini, a former college professor who served as jury foreman at the Schaibles' first trial, said Friday.
That jury convicted the couple of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.
Like other cases Peters has studied, the Schaibles belong to a small, insular circle of believers. Both are third-generation members and former teachers at their fundamentalist Christian church, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia.
Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death. He did not return phone messages this month, but he told The Associated Press in 2011 that his church is not a cult, and he faulted officials for trying to force his members into "the flawed medical system," which he blamed for 100,000 deaths a year.
"These are people who have been brought up in these communities; their beliefs are reinforced every day," Peters said. "They're not trained intellectually to question these doctrines, where the rest of us might engage in critical inquiry, weighing the benefits of medicine versus the benefits of prayer."
A handful of families, including one in western Pennsylvania, have lost two children after attempts at faith healing, according to Peters, who wrote "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law."
Peters isn't sure that courts have the means to prevent the problem, since such people don't fear legal punishment, only Judgment Day. Some believe death "is a good outcome," given their belief in the afterlife, he said.
"They don't want to harm their children. They're just in this particularly narrow — and very, very dangerous — way misguided about the potential of medical science," he said.
He believes that "empathetic" intervention, through dialogue between church and public health educators, could help some "get to a point where they allow their beliefs and practices to evolve."
But there's a risk that could backfire, and drive these communities further underground, he said.
For the Schaibles, a third-degree murder conviction could bring seven to 14 years in prison or more.
Said Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore: "Somebody is dead now as a result of what they did — or didn't do."
]
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/05/24/faith-healing-children-death-schaible/2359469/
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18869668 - 09/20/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.
When the Spanish conquistadors took over Mexico and Central America, Franciscan priests spread the Christian teachings. The natives said they did not need an intermediary to God when they could speak directly to him under the influence of teonanacatl (magic mushrooms). Shortly thereafter the Franciscans made it a capital offense to partake of mushrooms.
Alcohol prohibition was certainly funded and backed by churches. They put enormous pressure on politicians.
As to marijuana, how many atheists would call it 'The Devil's Weed'? The whole idea that ingesting some plants is moral and other plants is immoral is certainly based on religious belief.
Seriously? Conquistadors? riiiiight.
What part are you struggling with? The first large scale prohibition of fungi was sanctioned by The Church. That same attitude carries forward to this day.
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andrewss
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-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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57-71
Stranger


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.
When the Spanish conquistadors took over Mexico and Central America, Franciscan priests spread the Christian teachings. The natives said they did not need an intermediary to God when they could speak directly to him under the influence of teonanacatl (magic mushrooms). Shortly thereafter the Franciscans made it a capital offense to partake of mushrooms.
Alcohol prohibition was certainly funded and backed by churches. They put enormous pressure on politicians.
As to marijuana, how many atheists would call it 'The Devil's Weed'? The whole idea that ingesting some plants is moral and other plants is immoral is certainly based on religious belief.
Seriously? Conquistadors? riiiiight.
What part are you struggling with? The first large scale prohibition of fungi was sanctioned by The Church. That same attitude carries forward to this day.
I am not struggling with any of it. You are. You are posting angrily against religion and blaming them for all the ills on the planet. In my opinion you are an equal zealot as any fundie; but have a different view point.
I don't give a rat's ass what churches, law enforcement, politicians, or anyone else thinks of substances I may wish to ingest. At the same time, realizing there are legal implications to some of the substances, I am very careful in my approach to acquisition and possession. There are realities in life to deal with people and systems.
Again, either stamp out the opposition or learn to live with/around it. But in my opinion, continuously posting material that amounts to pissing and moaning about a group of people is fruitless.
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Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18873517 - 09/21/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
I am not struggling with any of it. You are. You are posting angrily against religion and blaming them for all the ills on the planet. In my opinion you are an equal zealot as any fundie; but have a different view point.
I don't give a rat's ass what churches, law enforcement, politicians, or anyone else thinks of substances I may wish to ingest. At the same time, realizing there are legal implications to some of the substances, I am very careful in my approach to acquisition and possession. There are realities in life to deal with people and systems.
Again, either stamp out the opposition or learn to live with/around it. But in my opinion, continuously posting material that amounts to pissing and moaning about a group of people is fruitless.

Butthurt much?
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57-71
Stranger


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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Repertoire89]
#18873606 - 09/21/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
57-71 said:
I am not struggling with any of it. You are. You are posting angrily against religion and blaming them for all the ills on the planet. In my opinion you are an equal zealot as any fundie; but have a different view point.
I don't give a rat's ass what churches, law enforcement, politicians, or anyone else thinks of substances I may wish to ingest. At the same time, realizing there are legal implications to some of the substances, I am very careful in my approach to acquisition and possession. There are realities in life to deal with people and systems.
Again, either stamp out the opposition or learn to live with/around it. But in my opinion, continuously posting material that amounts to pissing and moaning about a group of people is fruitless.

Butthurt much?
A serious discussion in a philosophy forum and that's the best you can do?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18873626 - 09/21/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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How is this nonsense part of an 'honest ' discussion?
"You are posting angrily against religion and blaming them for all the ills on the planet."
Read the Fallacies Sticky Thread and look up strawman before you make yourself look even more ignorant.
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Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18873746 - 09/21/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
A serious discussion in a philosophy forum and that's the best you can do?
There were too many personalisms in your post for me to take it seriously
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Repertoire89] 1
#18873758 - 09/21/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I especially liked the part: Who cares if people lives are ruined for entheogen usage? I am way too smart to ever get caught.
That is right up there with: Why should I care about rape? I am a man.
See how much fun strawmanning is?
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Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
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Quote:
57-71 said:
Again, either stamp out the opposition or learn to live with/around it. But in my opinion, continuously posting material that amounts to pissing and moaning about a group of people is fruitless.
I thought this part war particularly brilliant, lets stamp out all the religious nutters - all 6 billion of them
Skool is for foolz
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57-71
Stranger


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I especially liked the part: Who cares if people lives are ruined for entheogen usage? I am way too smart to ever get caught.
That is right up there with: Why should I care about rape? I am a man.
See how much fun strawmanning is? 
See how easily you can extrapolate all kinds of bullshit and project half truths from what someone actually said? I think you make a great preacher, (the philosophy is of your choosing of course) you certainly display all the characteristics of one. And in my opinion, the ignorance of which you speak is surely displayed at its apex in your posts that attack and deride others, especially when they are down and experiencing family trauma. This, and you, remind me of Rev. Al Sharpton.
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Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18877835 - 09/22/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I especially liked the part: Who cares if people lives are ruined for entheogen usage? I am way too smart to ever get caught.
That is right up there with: Why should I care about rape? I am a man.
See how much fun strawmanning is? 
See how easily you can extrapolate all kinds of bullshit and project half truths from what someone actually said? I think you make a great preacher, (the philosophy is of your choosing of course) you certainly display all the characteristics of one. And in my opinion, the ignorance of which you speak is surely displayed at its apex in your posts that attack and deride others, especially when they are down and experiencing family trauma. This, and you, remind me of Rev. Al Sharpton.
More personalisms, does your argument lack such a foundation that you cannot even defend it? You have to attack OCs character?
OC didn't deride you
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57-71
Stranger


Registered: 10/03/09
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Repertoire89]
#18878061 - 09/22/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I especially liked the part: Who cares if people lives are ruined for entheogen usage? I am way too smart to ever get caught.
That is right up there with: Why should I care about rape? I am a man.
See how much fun strawmanning is? 
See how easily you can extrapolate all kinds of bullshit and project half truths from what someone actually said? I think you make a great preacher, (the philosophy is of your choosing of course) you certainly display all the characteristics of one. And in my opinion, the ignorance of which you speak is surely displayed at its apex in your posts that attack and deride others, especially when they are down and experiencing family trauma. This, and you, remind me of Rev. Al Sharpton.
More personalisms, does your argument lack such a foundation that you cannot even defend it? You have to attack OCs character?
OC didn't deride you

If you had read the thread you would notice that I raised one point which is an opinion that the OP is constantly posting drivel that derides other groups which do not conform to his viewpoint.
Also, being described as ignorant is a personalism - if you take the time to read the thread.
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Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18878072 - 09/22/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
If you had read the thread you would notice that I raised one point which is an opinion that the OP is constantly posting drivel that derides other groups which do not conform to his viewpoint.
Also, being described as ignorant is a personalism - if you take the time to read the thread.
So you're argument consists entirely of personalisms directed at OC? Do you need like a joint or something?
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 4,826
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Repertoire89]
#18878585 - 09/22/13 11:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your mom!
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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Repertoire89
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Cactilove]
#18879786 - 09/23/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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tarzan92
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18879815 - 09/23/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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abatu666
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In a world with science there is no room for religion or prayer... I just can't wait til we finally breed out the poison known as religion from our society.
Religion has its benefits but in the end all it really does is causes hatred and starts wars because no two people can see eye to eye...
One man- "I don't like you" other man- "Why" First man "because my gods di** is bigger than your gods!" (everyone dies)
-------------------- *NOTE* If anything I say on these forums is in regards to any illegal activities, it doesn't matter, its all hypothetical, imagined, Googled, or cut copy and pasted from another person anyway. I neither commit nor do I condone any illegal activities. Thank you in advance for any advice, personal experiences, tips or whatever it is that you are willing to share in order to help my learning experience! PLURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
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Cactilove
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: abatu666]
#18881024 - 09/23/13 03:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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If that ever does happen while the human race is still in existence, which I doubt, I can almost guarantee you will be long dead.
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: abatu666]
#18882112 - 09/23/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
abatu666 said: In a world with science there is no room for religion or prayer... I just can't wait til we finally breed out the poison known as religion from our society.
Religion has its benefits but in the end all it really does is causes hatred and starts wars because no two people can see eye to eye...
One man- "I don't like you" other man- "Why" First man "because my gods di** is bigger than your gods!" (everyone dies)
You can say this with a closed mind, and claim to be of science, support science or be a scientist. Obviously, you know nothing of scientists. Predominately, they will say something like: "We do not think it is feasible that there is a god or gods, however in the absence of being able to prove otherwise, we can not say with certainty one does not exist." Other scientists believe in a god and yet produce good sound science. At the same time there are atheist scientists doing the same good work. With minor exception, each is usually respectful of the others right to express a belief. The scientists are also quite cognizant of restrictions to speech such that you propose in your post, due to having been censured at various times by governments and religion - which means people. Interestingly, your position also supports a comment I made prior, and your friends ridiculed.
The world is not black and white. People of all manner of beliefs live here and the atheist POV on this board is just another religion in its rabid declarations. This is why I have no affiliation with any of it: atheism, christianity, buddhism, islam, etc, etc, etc.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18882860 - 09/23/13 11:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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A belief without a foundation is called a delusion. Not much to respect about that.
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57-71
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OrgoneConclusion said: A belief without a foundation is called a delusion. Not much to respect about that.
At least I know who and what I am, and have self-respect. I do not want, seek, nor need respect from people that can not consider any POV but their own narrow world, and in so being, become exactly what they profess to despise.
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Icelander
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71] 2
#18886623 - 09/24/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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More personalisms. That seems to be your best debate tactic.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Icelander] 1
#18890567 - 09/25/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: More personalisms. That seems to be your best debate tactic. 
OK Icelander, let's discuss the "personalisms".
Here is the way I see what you have described as personalisms, and the hypocrisy involved with that description.
As a poster such as the OP, I can essentially attack any one whose view point I disagree with, in a personal manner, as long as they don't post here and defend themselves. This is the heart of the issue I have here.
This, in essence, is exactly what happened. The OP attacked the Warren family during a time of family crisis and ridiculed their beliefs. By proxy, because they do not attend the site, I returned the favour to the OP, and pointed out this hypocrisy to him. Not because I have any consideration or affinity for the Warrens of any other group of believers no matter their philosophy, but because it is the right thing to do IMO.
Correct? Help me out here if you think I am off track, but I see this situation every day on this board and it surely strikes me as cowardly and hypocritical, especially considering this is supposed to be a forum that embraces all manner of philosophical discussion respectfully. Much of what is posted by certain rabid atheists does not pass this test.
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Repertoire89
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18890843 - 09/25/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
OK Icelander, let's discuss the "personalisms".
Here is the way I see what you have described as personalisms, and the hypocrisy involved with that description.
As a poster such as the OP, I can essentially attack any one whose view point I disagree with, in a personal manner, as long as they don't post here and defend themselves. This is the heart of the issue I have here.
This, in essence, is exactly what happened. The OP attacked the Warren family during a time of family crisis and ridiculed their beliefs. By proxy, because they do not attend the site, I returned the favour to the OP, and pointed out this hypocrisy to him. Not because I have any consideration or affinity for the Warrens of any other group of believers no matter their philosophy, but because it is the right thing to do IMO.
Correct? Help me out here if you think I am off track, but I see this situation every day on this board and it surely strikes me as cowardly and hypocritical, especially considering this is supposed to be a forum that embraces all manner of philosophical discussion respectfully. Much of what is posted by certain rabid atheists does not pass this test.
A personalism refers to the person you are arguing with, instead of competing with their argument you attempt to demonize the individual.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
Quote:
Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.
Example: After Sally presents an eloquent and compelling case for a more equitable taxation system, Sam asks the audience whether we should believe anything from a woman who isn't married, was once arrested, and smells a bit weird.
"Much of what is posted by certain rabid atheists does not pass this test" ~ 57-71

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Icelander
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18890877 - 09/25/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It might behove you to study the forum guidelines on what a rule violating personalism actually is. As it is you don't seem to understand. It's amazing how many people come in to post believing that their ideas on what should be good to go here are the way the forum is set up. That's usually not the case.
From the post above.
A personalism refers to the person you are arguing with, instead of competing with their argument you attempt to demonize the individual.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18890912 - 09/25/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Let's look at the facts:
1. Warren has made millions promoting the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
2. Jesus said that whoever prays in faith will be healed.
3. Warren's son died from depression and suicide.
There are only a few possible conclusions:
1. The Warrens didn't pray (or with enough faith).
2. Their whole life is a lie.
Is a fact a personalism or not?
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57-71
Stranger


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Let's look at the facts:
1. Warren has made millions promoting the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
2. Jesus said that whoever prays in faith will be healed.
3. Warren's son died from depression and suicide.
There are only a few possible conclusions:
1. The Warrens didn't pray (or with enough faith).
2. Their whole life is a lie.
Is a fact a personalism or not?
1. You are correct 2 Possibly it is a fact that Jesus said this, however much has been attributed to him. It is also believed by Christians that prayer is a route to healing, however there is no guarantee (as you imply there is) that healing will take place. Believers accede this to the will of god. 3.True
1.How you can claim to know this and purport it as fact, or even a possibility, is truly against all scientific reason. There may many ways to know this, or none. 2.This is sensationalism (paparazzi style)for the mindless minions; and is a judgement on your behalf that is not reasoned argument. It is certainly not fact, but simply an attack against their belief.
So now we are back at this:
"This, in essence, is exactly what happened. The OP attacked the Warren family during a time of family crisis and ridiculed their beliefs. By proxy, because they do not attend the site, I returned the favour to the OP, and pointed out this hypocrisy to him. Not because I have any consideration or affinity for the Warrens of any other group of believers no matter their philosophy, but because it is the right thing to do IMO.
Correct? Help me out here if you think I am off track, but I see this situation every day on this board and it surely strikes me as cowardly and hypocritical, especially considering this is supposed to be a forum that embraces all manner of philosophical discussion respectfully. Much of what is posted by certain rabid atheists does not pass this test."
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18891000 - 09/25/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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How does your choice of the word 'rabid' add to the discussion?
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57-71
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: How does your choice of the word 'rabid' add to the discussion?
I agree it doesn't really, but it is a fact!
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Icelander
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18891227 - 09/25/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It is not a "fact" except in your mind. I actually know what that word means.
Once again you want to ignore the forum guidelines in favor of your own morality. Why not create your own site with your own rules rather than complaining about how this forum works. If you see a real offense flag it and let a moderator handle it.
Or, leave and post elsewhere.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Icelander]
#18891342 - 09/25/13 09:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: It is not a "fact" except in your mind. I actually know what that word means.
Once again you want to ignore the forum guidelines in favor of your own morality. Why not create your own site with your own rules rather than complaining about how this forum works. If you see a real offense flag it and let a moderator handle it.
Or, leave and post elsewhere.
As were the purported "facts" in the post I responded to, and which post was not refuted. Again, seemingly, if one supports a certain POV in this philosophy forum then one is accepted and safe. Again, my morality is your judgement and that is fair enough for you to exercise that. It cuts both ways though.
And, sir, for you or anyone else here to invite a (for lack of a better word) a dissident poster to leave and also elsewhere claim to be a proponent of free speech is entirely rich, and again hypocritical notwithstanding. Have I lied? No. Truth hurt? Seemingly so.
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Repertoire89
Cat



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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18891498 - 09/25/13 10:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Let's look at the facts:
1. Warren has made millions promoting the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
2. Jesus said that whoever prays in faith will be healed.
3. Warren's son died from depression and suicide.
There are only a few possible conclusions:
1. The Warrens didn't pray (or with enough faith).
2. Their whole life is a lie.
Is a fact a personalism or not?
1. You are correct 2 Possibly it is a fact that Jesus said this, however much has been attributed to him. It is also believed by Christians that prayer is a route to healing, however there is no guarantee (as you imply there is) that healing will take place. Believers accede this to the will of god. 3.True
1.How you can claim to know this and purport it as fact, or even a possibility, is truly against all scientific reason. There may many ways to know this, or none. 2.This is sensationalism (paparazzi style)for the mindless minions; and is a judgement on your behalf that is not reasoned argument. It is certainly not fact, but simply an attack against their belief.
Another ad-hominem underlined above
James 5:14-16 ESV
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
Quote:
So now we are back at this:
"This, in essence, is exactly what happened. The OP attacked the Warren family during a time of family crisis and ridiculed their beliefs. By proxy, because they do not attend the site, I returned the favour to the OP, and pointed out this hypocrisy to him. Not because I have any consideration or affinity for the Warrens of any other group of believers no matter their philosophy, but because it is the right thing to do IMO.
Correct? Help me out here if you think I am off track, but I see this situation every day on this board and it surely strikes me as cowardly and hypocritical, especially considering this is supposed to be a forum that embraces all manner of philosophical discussion respectfully. Much of what is posted by certain rabid atheists does not pass this test."
What does OP have to do with the topic? Don't answer that rhetorical question, this topic is not about OC.
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Repertoire89
Cat



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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18891521 - 09/25/13 10:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
And, sir, for you or anyone else here to invite a (for lack of a better word) a dissident poster to leave and also elsewhere claim to be a proponent of free speech is entirely rich, and again hypocritical notwithstanding. Have I lied? No. Truth hurt? Seemingly so.
The rules were explained to you, if you don't want to abide by them then
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Icelander
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18892606 - 09/26/13 04:11 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: It is not a "fact" except in your mind. I actually know what that word means.
Once again you want to ignore the forum guidelines in favor of your own morality. Why not create your own site with your own rules rather than complaining about how this forum works. If you see a real offense flag it and let a moderator handle it.
Or, leave and post elsewhere.
As were the purported "facts" in the post I responded to, and which post was not refuted. Again, seemingly, if one supports a certain POV in this philosophy forum then one is accepted and safe. Again, my morality is your judgement and that is fair enough for you to exercise that. It cuts both ways though.
And, sir, for you or anyone else here to invite a (for lack of a better word) a dissident poster to leave and also elsewhere claim to be a proponent of free speech is entirely rich, and again hypocritical notwithstanding. Have I lied? No. Truth hurt? Seemingly so.
It's hardly hypocritical to give someone the option to leave if they are at odds with the forum rules. I never told you to leave but rather reminded you of that option. Again we play by the rules set up by the owners of this site. It's not our call. As long as we play by them then there is no problem unless self made. To complain about the rules when it's not your game is small minded imo. If you don't like the rules and how the game is played and this is a game for us here as far as I can tell, then it behoves you to find another.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Icelander]
#18895472 - 09/26/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: It is not a "fact" except in your mind. I actually know what that word means.
Once again you want to ignore the forum guidelines in favor of your own morality. Why not create your own site with your own rules rather than complaining about how this forum works. If you see a real offense flag it and let a moderator handle it.
Or, leave and post elsewhere.
As were the purported "facts" in the post I responded to, and which post was not refuted. Again, seemingly, if one supports a certain POV in this philosophy forum then one is accepted and safe. Again, my morality is your judgement and that is fair enough for you to exercise that. It cuts both ways though.
And, sir, for you or anyone else here to invite a (for lack of a better word) a dissident poster to leave and also elsewhere claim to be a proponent of free speech is entirely rich, and again hypocritical notwithstanding. Have I lied? No. Truth hurt? Seemingly so.
It's hardly hypocritical to give someone the option to leave if they are at odds with the forum rules. I never told you to leave but rather reminded you of that option. Again we play by the rules set up by the owners of this site. It's not our call. As long as we play by them then there is no problem unless self made. To complain about the rules when it's not your game is small minded imo. If you don't like the rules and how the game is played and this is a game for us here as far as I can tell, then it behoves you to find another.
I have bolded your words as reminder of what facts are. As for the rest of the post, how utterly pharisaic. Well done.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71] 1
#18895703 - 09/26/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Did someone write pharaohsaic?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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No, you silly, he wrote Farrahsaic!
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Oh...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18895887 - 09/26/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: It is not a "fact" except in your mind. I actually know what that word means.
Once again you want to ignore the forum guidelines in favor of your own morality. Why not create your own site with your own rules rather than complaining about how this forum works. If you see a real offense flag it and let a moderator handle it.
Or, leave and post elsewhere.
As were the purported "facts" in the post I responded to, and which post was not refuted. Again, seemingly, if one supports a certain POV in this philosophy forum then one is accepted and safe. Again, my morality is your judgement and that is fair enough for you to exercise that. It cuts both ways though.
And, sir, for you or anyone else here to invite a (for lack of a better word) a dissident poster to leave and also elsewhere claim to be a proponent of free speech is entirely rich, and again hypocritical notwithstanding. Have I lied? No. Truth hurt? Seemingly so.
It's hardly hypocritical to give someone the option to leave if they are at odds with the forum rules. I never told you to leave but rather reminded you of that option. Again we play by the rules set up by the owners of this site. It's not our call. As long as we play by them then there is no problem unless self made. To complain about the rules when it's not your game is small minded imo. If you don't like the rules and how the game is played and this is a game for us here as far as I can tell, then it behoves you to find another.
I have bolded your words as reminder of what facts are. As for the rest of the post, how utterly pharisaic. Well done.
Because I told you there are rules to this forum?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Repertoire89
Cat



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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Icelander]
#18896550 - 09/26/13 11:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Because I told you there are rules to this forum? 
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
57-71 said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.
When the Spanish conquistadors took over Mexico and Central America, Franciscan priests spread the Christian teachings. The natives said they did not need an intermediary to God when they could speak directly to him under the influence of teonanacatl (magic mushrooms). Shortly thereafter the Franciscans made it a capital offense to partake of mushrooms.
Alcohol prohibition was certainly funded and backed by churches. They put enormous pressure on politicians.
As to marijuana, how many atheists would call it 'The Devil's Weed'? The whole idea that ingesting some plants is moral and other plants is immoral is certainly based on religious belief.
Seriously? Conquistadors? riiiiight.
What part are you struggling with? The first large scale prohibition of fungi was sanctioned by The Church. That same attitude carries forward to this day.
Fucking Hippiecrits, gobbling down Amanita Muscaria with one hand and shunning Psilocybes with the other. 
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Icelander]
#18900070 - 09/27/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have bolded your words as reminder of what facts are. As for the rest of the post, how utterly pharisaic. Well done.
Because I told you there are rules to this forum? 
No, not because you told me there are rules. I give you a lot more credit for intelligence than that Icelander, however you must have missed the intent. Here it is
Because of the way you explained the rules and then skated around the question I had way back in the thread about the rules, as well as all the other posters who ignored the question/allegation.
So I will re-pose the question: Can I make threads or post in threads, personalisms, if the object of said personalisms is not a poster here?
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Icelander
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18900098 - 09/27/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's all in the rules or implied by them. Yes you can. You can say anything you want about anyone who is not a member of this site. Them's the rules. Now you may not like that people feel free to rag on someone outside of this forum but that is neither here nor there when it comes to the rules for posting here. That's a matter of personal preference and totally subjective. You are free to like or dislike what anyone says here but if it's not in violation of the rules it's acceptable. We all learn to live with diversity here or we don't stay long.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic


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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18904111 - 09/28/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You mean like if I called Nancy Reagan a faggot?
-------------------- Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.
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57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Icelander]
#18907831 - 09/29/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you
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Icelander
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Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
#18908010 - 09/29/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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My pleasure.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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