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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Europe scorns US plea
    #1884749 - 09/05/03 12:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

US isolated as Europe scorns plea for more troops in Iraq
By Andrew Grice and David Usborne
05 September 2003


Washington suffered a double blow in its plans for Iraq yesterday as France and Germany balked at proposals for an international force while the Prime Minister gave a cautious response to a call for 5,000 extra British troops.

The French and German leaders delivered a cool response to a draft resolution sponsored by the United States, which aims to create a United Nations mandate for an international force while keeping the troops under US command.

Washington is urgently seeking ways to reduce the burden on its 140,000 troops in Iraq, because of increasing casualties and the cost of occupation.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=440335


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Xlea321]
    #1884772 - 09/05/03 12:21 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

One would think they would like to help in stabilising and re-building Iraq. Its a shame they allow political quarrels to intefere with their decisions.


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Xlea321]
    #1884900 - 09/05/03 01:05 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The only blow suffered is to the heads of the writers of the article.

In order for the US to have suffered a blow, there would have had to have been a realistic expectation of help being given. I seriously doubt anyone in this administration thought the French and Germans would help out.

Frankly we shouldn't have even asked.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Xlea321]
    #1884942 - 09/05/03 01:14 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Why doesn't the US ask North Korea for help? They got lots of soldiers doing nothing.


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: pattern]
    #1885020 - 09/05/03 01:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, OK. :rolleyes:

I agree with you lds. What I find funny, is the fact that the writer thought the US expected France and Germany to go along with it. We knew they wouldn't. Whenever you are going to negotiate you always ask for more than you expect to receive, so you have something to give up. I do find Chirac's comments ridiculous though. He said that it didn't do enough to get the government back in the hands of the Iraqis. Huh? So giving the UN control of the political side of things is going to do that? Yeah, OK.

The coalition is already working to get the Iraqi government up and running, and the UN can't do anything to make that process any faster. It was a disingenuous argument designed to make Chirac look like he is concerned with it. What he really wants is for the UN to get control of the thing, so France can get control of it. The resolution put forward does point to getting the Iraqis in control as soon as possible.

This type of thing has been done in the past plenty of times. The UN will authorize an operation and let a certain country head up the efforts. Kofi Annan doesn't even want UN troops in Iraq. I think he sees this as a good solution. I would bet that a similar version of this resolution gets passed.


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OfflineDava
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Registered: 03/03/03
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: shakta]
    #1885156 - 09/05/03 02:00 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


It was a disingenuous argument designed to make Chirac look like he is concerned with it. What he really wants is for the UN to get control of the thing, so France can get control of it.




This doesnt make any sense.
France doesnt run the UN.

IMHO, its kinda remarkable that they are asking for troops AFTER all the big contracts are handed out.

I rather not see any belgian troops sended to Iraq.
I dont want my country to pay in money and/or lives for what another country has done wrong.
What country can call himself a superpower without being able to clean up his own mess?




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"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..."
- Timothy Leary


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: shakta]
    #1885159 - 09/05/03 02:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What I find funny, is the fact that the writer thought the US expected France and Germany to go along with it

I don't think he expected that at all.

The really amazing thing is how quickly Bush and his cronies thought this thing would be over. I guess they see crawling to the UN on their bellies as a better way out than going into the election with american corpses stacking up.


--------------------
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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Dava]
    #1885162 - 09/05/03 02:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

We can clean up our own 'mess' if we have to. I am not to worried about Belgian troops anyway. We can do without all 10 of them.

Quote:

France doesn't run the UN




That was a good one. Got any more jokes?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Xlea321]
    #1885168 - 09/05/03 02:03 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:The really amazing thing is how quickly Bush and his cronies thought this thing would be over. I guess they see crawling to the UN on their bellies is a better way out than going into the election with american corpses stacking up.




Ahother bullshit argument from you I see. Show me one place wear they have said they thought it would be over quickly.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: shakta]
    #1885174 - 09/05/03 02:05 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You think France runs the UN? WTF?

And 10 dead belgians makes for better headlines than another 10 dead americans. Especially with election year fast approaching.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: shakta]
    #1885177 - 09/05/03 02:06 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Show me one place wear they have said they thought it would be over quickly.

So why didn't they involve the UN at the start? What's changed in between then and now?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: shakta]
    #1885185 - 09/05/03 02:08 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

well, they expected to be reducing the number of troops by this time.
I don't have a link at the moment, but it's common knowledge to anyone who's been following this whole thing.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Xlea321]
    #1885188 - 09/05/03 02:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

They tried to involve the UN at the start as you know. The UN chose to sit on their hands, and do nothing at the time. Yes, I believe the UN is a pawn of the French to a certain extent.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: shakta]
    #1885202 - 09/05/03 02:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

From the "paying the price" thread:

If the Bush administration is expecting grateful thanks for its proposal to give the UN a bigger role in Iraq, it is going to be sorely disappointed. If the White House thinks that as a result, foreign peacekeeping forces and funds will soon be flooding into occupied Iraq, it will likely be disappointed about that, too.

It is plain that the US push for a new security council resolution does not derive from newly rediscovered respect for the UN. President George Bush and his senior officials were happy to bully and bypass the UN in the lead-up to the Iraq war. It is a grim irony that they are now trudging back, cap in hand, to seek the help of the same organisation they resoundingly rubbished.

Most countries will be broadly pleased by the prodigal's return. But that does not mean they will now do everything the US wants. And even if they forgive, they will not forget Bush's behaviour. Whatever they agree to do to help will come at a correspondingly higher price - if it comes at all.

It is also plain to all that the US proposal for new Iraq resolution proceeds from a position of weakness, not strength. The problems facing the US (and British) military forces in Iraq have been steadily worsening. The overall security situation is dire for Iraqis and occupiers alike.

But the US and Britain are locked in, manacled by chains of their own making. UN resolution 1483, passed last May, appoints the two countries as Iraq's official occupying powers. Their legal obligations, not least to provide security, are unlimited and of indefinite duration.

The financial cost is also becoming unsupportable, as a long overdue, increasingly candid debate within the US is finally making plain to the American public. The Pentagon, having spent its $79bn (?50bn) additional allocation for the war, is reportedly looking for between $60-80bn to maintain current operations.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Xlea321]
    #1885213 - 09/05/03 02:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

OK, so you can post an article. And?


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1885222 - 09/05/03 02:22 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

well.... it's actually shouldn't be unexpected to get aid from france and germany, since they've helped us often in the past. you just like to overlook the piss poor people skills this jackass (bush... if that wasn't clear...) has and the shitty ramifications of them. if clinton had done this shit, even if he took over 2 countries a la bush, he'd still have been clever enough to get some help.

cause the jokes on us, or our soilders, at least. *bam* you're dead.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Malachi]
    #1885237 - 09/05/03 02:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Why don't you study your history book and come back to the table Malachi. Clinton went to war without UN approval, he went to NATO instead. Bush has two dozen countries supporting the war already. The entire point of the new resolution is to allow countries that want to help out do so. Some of them are reluctant to do so without UN approval. No one is asking for UN troops, or UN money. We simply would like the UN to 'allow' other countries to contribute IF THEY CHOOSE.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: Malachi]
    #1885264 - 09/05/03 02:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't say they've never helped. What I did say, quite clearly, is that in this instance, I don't think help was expected to be given.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1885323 - 09/05/03 02:51 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

doesn't the fact that we have to go to them for help in the first place show you that this whole enterprise has been a disaster?



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Europe scorns US plea [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1885339 - 09/05/03 02:57 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

No. We don't HAVE to go for help. We chose to.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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