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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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ammonia smell during casing pasteurization
#18816154 - 09/08/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hi all, I searched the forums but haven't found any relevant info for my question/observation.
Until recently, I've been making a casing mix out of peat moss, verm, and garden lime. I have since switched to hydrated lime, and I've also begun adding gypsum. The peat moss/verm/garden lime casing mix never produced an odor.
Now I make my casing material out of peat moss, vermiculite, hydrated lime, and gypsum. Since using these materials, I notice ammonia gas is being released. Any ideas? Have others experience this, and is it okay? The peat moss I've been using is fortified with a mild fertilizer. I've started buying plain peat moss, with no additives, but since I already have the enriched peat moss, I'll finish using it first. My guess is that there is a reaction between the hydrated lime (or the gypsum) and either the peat moss itself or the added fertilizer.
Thanks for your help, Dan
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gman7104

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 820
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18816188 - 09/08/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Are you sure it's ammonia? Gypsum has a strong sulfur smell and it stained my saucepan that I now only use for grain prep.
I haven't worked with hydrated lime so I can't say. If your ingredients are correct it will be fine. You should just ditch the fortified peat moss.
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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: gman7104]
#18816236 - 09/08/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, it's definitely ammonia gas. The fortified peat moss has worked fine in the past, and it's the only kind available in small bags in my area. I've started buying peat moss by the cubic yard, so the added fertilizer won't be an issue in the future.
I think you're right though, I don't think it'll be a problem.
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gman7104

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 820
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18820632 - 09/09/13 08:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just found out an interesting fact, ammonium chloride reacts with calcium hydroxide (hydrated lime) to form ammonia gas.
Ammonium chloride is a common fertilizer. Il bet thats the reason.
If thats the case, you should allow the ammonia to evaporate by putting wet casing mixture on a large surface to dry, then bring to field capacity and pastuerize.
Edited by gman7104 (09/09/13 08:31 PM)
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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: gman7104]
#18821396 - 09/09/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oh, awesome, thanks for sharing that, I thought that's what was going on. Anyway, I cased it as it was. Hopefully the ammonia won't cause any problems. Since it was evaporating, I don't think it'll be an issue. I'll post an update as soon as I find out. Thanks again, Dan
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18821434 - 09/09/13 11:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Don't add gypsum to a casing layer. It should be as low-nute as possible. Just peat, verm, and lime.
There is an issue if it smells like ammonia. That is not right.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/09/13 11:56 PM)
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Greycat16
The cat



Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 73
Loc: Tip of africa
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18821601 - 09/10/13 12:53 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ammonia is often formed during anaerobic decomposition. Has your stuff stood wet and closed up? That would cause those gasses to form with any organic material. It's decomposition in the absence of O2.....
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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: Greycat16]
#18823316 - 09/10/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't think the ammonia smell is from anaerobic respiration. The peat, verm, lime and gypsum, upon pasteurization, produced the ammonia smell. The casing materials were dry just prior to pasteurization. After wetting to field capacity, and during pasteurization, the ammonia was being released. So I'm fairly certain it was an inorganic reaction.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18823326 - 09/10/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I always thought peat smelled weird, not like ammonia but it definitely has a "different" smell.
Could you perhaps be misinterpreting the scent?
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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18823438 - 09/10/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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No, it's definitely ammonia, not peat. Like gman said, I think the hydrated lime reacted with the nitrogen in the peat.
And the ammonia smell is still lingering in the monotub. I wish I would have let it evaporate entirely before using it. Hopefully the mycelium can handle it... the mycelium should be appearing in the valleys of the casing layer in the next 48 hours or so...
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18823596 - 09/10/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, I could not say anything further with certainty, I have not had this particular issue nor do I know much about chemistry 
Hope it turns out well for you.
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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18830177 - 09/11/13 09:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I tried a little test today to source out the cause of the ammonia smell; I mixed together a handful of the stupid fortified peat moss, a half tsp hydrated lime,and a little water. The mixture immediately began releasing ammonia gas. Tomorrow I'll perform the same experiment with additive-free peat moss, but I'm fairly certain there won't be any ammonia smell.
So... fertilizer-enhanced sphagnum peat reacts with hydrated lime to release ammonia gas. It might be worth mentioning that this didn't happen when I was using the fortified peat with garden lime, which reinforces the point that garden lime is much less water soluble and therefore not useful for quickly increasing the pH of a casing layer.
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Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant



Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18830224 - 09/11/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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You might also look for a product called Jiffy Mix Seed Starter (non organic-they make two kinds). It is Peat, verm and lime, already buffered and sterilized.
I apply it right outta the bag and mist to capacity. Some folks wet it then apply it. It is about 3.50 for an 8 quart bag and its seasonal in the USA at most garden centers.
-------------------- What's wrong with folks? Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs. Mush Porn
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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: Gretchenmeister]
#18830519 - 09/11/13 11:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Okay, cool, I'll check it out, thanks.
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Greycat16
The cat



Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 73
Loc: Tip of africa
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18837311 - 09/13/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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anaerobic decomposition, not anaerobic respiration. But yeah, you there and would be able best to identify the issue. It was just my only thought on the ammonia gasses being formed. I can not think of another reason for them to be there
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
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Loc: Seattle
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18837477 - 09/13/13 03:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Don't add gypsum to a casing layer. It should be as low-nute as possible. Just peat, verm, and lime.
Not exactly.
Gypsum should be used in all casing layers because it adds calcium and sulfur, both essential elements for good mushroom growth. It also prevents pH swings, conditions the casing to prevent packing, and contains no 'nutrients'.
The ammonia smell is from the fertilizer added to the peat. Don't use that kind in the future. Ammonia is toxic to fungi, so be sure to let it all gas out before using, or toss and start over with the right stuff. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18837503 - 09/13/13 03:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very interesting. Good to know! I must have missed this when I watched your video.
You are definitely the man, RR
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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18845175 - 09/15/13 04:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I tried making a casing layer today with the exact same ingredients, but this time with organic peat moss, and I still get the ammonia smell. I used 6 cups organic peat moss, 6 cups vermiculite, 1/2 cup pelleted gypsum, and 1/8 cup pickling lime (hydrated lime). As soon as I mixed these ingredients with tap water, I smelled ammonia. It's not as strong with the organic peat moss, but my understanding is that if I can smell ammonia, it's too much for mushrooms to handle.
And my last ammonia-smelling casing layer, the casing layer that started this thread, had a major inhibitory effect. The mycelium has finally begun to extend into the casing layer a bit, and pinning has begun (1 pin) but it's taking much longer than it usually does. I'm just glad there are signs of life in there.
In the past I used garden lime (pulverized limestone) and no gypsum. There was no ammonia smell. I thought the ammonia smell was caused by the added fertilizer in the peat mixing with hydrated lime, but now it's happening with the additive-free, organic peat.
So I will let today's casing mixture sit out until it no longer smells like ammonia, but I wonder why I would experience this, and others do not?
Edited by dukeh98 (09/15/13 04:22 PM)
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dukeh98
mycologist wannabe

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18845231 - 09/15/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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So I tried all sorts of different combinations to see what might be causing the ammonia smell.
I mixed organic peat moss with Mrs Wages Pickling Lime. Added water, no ammonia released.
I mixed the peat moss with Hi-Yield brand Horticultural Grade Hydrated Lime. Added water, no ammonia.
I mixed the peat moss with Espoma brand gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate). Added water, no ammonia.
But when I mix the organic peat moss with the gypsum and either brand of hydrated lime, ammonia gas is released.
I thought that since the 'ammonia smell' is somewhat qualitative (it might be my nose), I should ask someone else, and he agreed that it smelled like ammonia.
So I'm out of ideas, unless my proportions are way off... (6 c. peat, 6 c. verm, 1/2 c. gypsum, 1/8 c. lime)
Too much gypsum maybe?
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: ammonia smell during casing pasteurization [Re: dukeh98]
#18846119 - 09/15/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think you should just use it on a tray. I bet it is fine.
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