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SpiritualWarrior
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MarkostheGnostic said: The author John equated Iesous to the Logos, which is translated in English as "Word.'' The capitalization of it suggested a second aspect to God in the 2nd century, and the Holy Spirit suggested a third aspect by the 3rd century. Tertullian coined the word trinity. But Logos derives from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who wrote a lot about the Logos. John borrowed some of this for his Prologue (Pro-Logos) to the gospel of John. Philo got his ideas from Neo-Platonism where the Logos, called 'Nous,' is the first Being that emanates from non-Being, the Unmanifested. This idea turned into the Father (Unmanifest) and the (Manifest) Son. Neo-Platonism has the 'World Soul' (Anima) emanate in turn from Nous. In Christian theology this became the Holy Spirit. But Iesous the Christ according to John (not the other 3 gospel authors) was 'God clothed with flesh,' the incarnation of God. Mark, Matthew and Luke considered Iesous 'a man anointed by God.' Huge difference. Yet, John's idea tainted most Christian's understanding, and they bought into Iesous as a demigod straight out of classic Greek mythology.
Where are you getting this idea that the other 3 Gospels (not John) said that Jesus as only 'a man annointed by God'? That's not true cause even the text says that Jesus and God are the same. This is what the Ecumenical Church Councils decided in the first 7 centuries of the Faith, that Jesus was God in the flesh, and the 4 Gospels were chosen by the Church because they all taught a simple truth about Jesus, that he was both God and Man, and that because of that, he saves us from sin. John's Gospel is different only because that is the theological Gospel meant for the initiated.
To claim that the 3 Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke do not say that Jesus was God and that only John's Gospel said Jesus was God is just not fact.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Quote:
SpiritualWarrior said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: The author John equated Iesous to the Logos, which is translated in English as "Word.'' The capitalization of it suggested a second aspect to God in the 2nd century, and the Holy Spirit suggested a third aspect by the 3rd century. Tertullian coined the word trinity. But Logos derives from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who wrote a lot about the Logos. John borrowed some of this for his Prologue (Pro-Logos) to the gospel of John. Philo got his ideas from Neo-Platonism where the Logos, called 'Nous,' is the first Being that emanates from non-Being, the Unmanifested. This idea turned into the Father (Unmanifest) and the (Manifest) Son. Neo-Platonism has the 'World Soul' (Anima) emanate in turn from Nous. In Christian theology this became the Holy Spirit. But Iesous the Christ according to John (not the other 3 gospel authors) was 'God clothed with flesh,' the incarnation of God. Mark, Matthew and Luke considered Iesous 'a man anointed by God.' Huge difference. Yet, John's idea tainted most Christian's understanding, and they bought into Iesous as a demigod straight out of classic Greek mythology.
Where are you getting this idea that the other 3 Gospels (not John) said that Jesus as only 'a man annointed by God'? That's not true cause even the text says that Jesus and God are the same. This is what the Ecumenical Church Councils decided in the first 7 centuries of the Faith, that Jesus was God in the flesh, and the 4 Gospels were chosen by the Church because they all taught a simple truth about Jesus, that he was both God and Man, and that because of that, he saves us from sin. John's Gospel is different only because that is the theological Gospel meant for the initiated.
To claim that the 3 Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke do not say that Jesus was God and that only John's Gospel said Jesus was God is just not fact.
Where does it say Jesus is god in the bible? And then why is he always talking to god and who would he be praying to if he was god?
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SpiritualWarrior
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
#18844910 - 09/15/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
SpiritualWarrior said:
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MarkostheGnostic said: The author John equated Iesous to the Logos, which is translated in English as "Word.'' The capitalization of it suggested a second aspect to God in the 2nd century, and the Holy Spirit suggested a third aspect by the 3rd century. Tertullian coined the word trinity. But Logos derives from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who wrote a lot about the Logos. John borrowed some of this for his Prologue (Pro-Logos) to the gospel of John. Philo got his ideas from Neo-Platonism where the Logos, called 'Nous,' is the first Being that emanates from non-Being, the Unmanifested. This idea turned into the Father (Unmanifest) and the (Manifest) Son. Neo-Platonism has the 'World Soul' (Anima) emanate in turn from Nous. In Christian theology this became the Holy Spirit. But Iesous the Christ according to John (not the other 3 gospel authors) was 'God clothed with flesh,' the incarnation of God. Mark, Matthew and Luke considered Iesous 'a man anointed by God.' Huge difference. Yet, John's idea tainted most Christian's understanding, and they bought into Iesous as a demigod straight out of classic Greek mythology.
Where are you getting this idea that the other 3 Gospels (not John) said that Jesus as only 'a man annointed by God'? That's not true cause even the text says that Jesus and God are the same. This is what the Ecumenical Church Councils decided in the first 7 centuries of the Faith, that Jesus was God in the flesh, and the 4 Gospels were chosen by the Church because they all taught a simple truth about Jesus, that he was both God and Man, and that because of that, he saves us from sin. John's Gospel is different only because that is the theological Gospel meant for the initiated.
To claim that the 3 Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke do not say that Jesus was God and that only John's Gospel said Jesus was God is just not fact.
Where does it say Jesus is god in the bible? And then why is he always talking to god and who would he be praying to if he was god?
Well that's where the Trinity doctrine/theory comes into play. Many places in the Bible refer to Jesus as God, but it also has the Father being God as well. If Jesus is the "Son of God" as it says, then it means he is equal with God even John's Gospel says that,
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
The Trinity is a doctrine that says there are 3 different attributes/beings of God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God's activity in the world and in ourselves. The Son is God in the flesh, and the Father is the originator of all that exists "The Father of Lights". Its one God but its three different activities or beings of the same God.
Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/15/13 03:03 PM)
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p-nut
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Registered: 11/17/11
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Quote:
SpiritualWarrior said:
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
This sounds like when Mansur al-Hallaj was murdered by the Caliph a thousand years later. He said "I am The Truth", meaning he was God, meaning that he saw no separation between himself and the Divine. And the bastards killed him, just like they did Jesus.
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MarkostheGnostic
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That's your contention. John's gospel is the most non-historical in orientation, the most mystical. Personally, I don't care what theological decisions were made at Nicaea or Post-Nicaea. I own the Ante-Nicene Fathers works, but that was the beginning of the end of truth IMO. The canonical works were selected for largely political reasons, and the entire Nag Hammadi library uncovered in 1945 shows just how many differing theologies were done away with by evil men like Irenaeus, and committed to the fascist fires at the outset of institutional Christianity. Moreover, Matthew, for example, the religious Jewish author would not have inserted Greek mythological ideas into his Jewish oriented gospel. Incarnation as a concept never belonged to Hebrew myth. Demigods were purely Greek mythology, born of a mortal virgin and Deity.
Christianity was a sect of Judaism for a good 150 years until they were ousted from the synagogues. By then, the Hellenism from John's influence had created a sufficient mytho-religious wedge to separate Jewish from Gentile churches. The Jewish sects like the Ebionites never embraced the incarnational, Hellenisitc, Gentile mythological form of Christianity. The Church Fathers were ALL Gentile by the time theological decisions for dogma was established. If Jesus could be interviewed about the vast theological concept from the Western and Eastern churches, he would not have any idea what any of the trinitarian doctrines or Christological doctrines were about. If he did exist as a 1st century Judean peasant, the Mystery of God would have remained a Mystery, not speculated and elaborated in intellectual treatises about which nobody could possibly know anything. Theology is inventive at best, attempting to satisfy an intellectual craving for which there cannot be any intellectual answers.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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SpiritualWarrior
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MarkostheGnostic said: That's your contention. John's gospel is the most non-historical in orientation, the most mystical. Personally, I don't care what theological decisions were made at Nicaea or Post-Nicaea. I own the Ante-Nicene Fathers works, but that was the beginning of the end of truth IMO. The canonical works were selected for largely political reasons, and the entire Nag Hammadi library uncovered in 1945 shows just how many differing theologies were done away with by evil men like Irenaeus, and committed to the fascist fires at the outset of institutional Christianity. Moreover, Matthew, for example, the religious Jewish author would not have inserted Greek mythological ideas into his Jewish oriented gospel. Incarnation as a concept never belonged to Hebrew myth. Demigods were purely Greek mythology, born of a mortal virgin and Deity.
Christianity was a sect of Judaism for a good 150 years until they were ousted from the synagogues. By then, the Hellenism from John's influence had created a sufficient mytho-religious wedge to separate Jewish from Gentile churches. The Jewish sects like the Ebionites never embraced the incarnational, Hellenisitc, Gentile mythological form of Christianity. The Church Fathers were ALL Gentile by the time theological decisions for dogma was established. If Jesus could be interviewed about the vast theological concept from the Western and Eastern churches, he would not have any idea what any of the trinitarian doctrines or Christological doctrines were about. If he did exist as a 1st century Judean peasant, the Mystery of God would have remained a Mystery, not speculated and elaborated in intellectual treatises about which nobody could possibly know anything. Theology is inventive at best, attempting to satisfy an intellectual craving for which there cannot be any intellectual answers.
Evil men like Irenaeus? Where did you get all these teachings from, can you give me some proof of these things? Saying that Matthew was just Greek mythology is very bold of you.
How was Christianity a sect of Judaism, where did you get that teaching from?
You may have a point in saying theology is inventive but a big reason why it exists is so that there can be one unity in the Faith even as Paul said there should be. Paul said that God gave us teachers of the Faith so that we would reach a "Unity of the Faith" and the "Full Knowledge (Gr. Epignosis) of the Son of God." "Unto a perfect man".
Ephesians 4:11-16 "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all arrive to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the Fullness of Christ; that we may no longer be infants, being tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming, but speaking the truth in love, we may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ; from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the working of the measure of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the edification of itself in love."
But how do we know what the true knowledge of the Son of God is without teachers and evangelists and a Church itself to teach us? We will be "carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming."
There is a reason why the gnostics had their writings buried and why there were never recovered until 1945. One, it was not God's will and secondly contained within the writings themselves was never a unified doctrine which brought about any sort of unity of the faith. That is the problem with gnosticism as it was and as it stands today, there are so many different teachings which conflict with each other and there is no universal teaching of it. It is an ocean of confusion and the teachings are not in one accord with one another. I'm sure God didn't want it to be like that, He wanted there to be one Faith and one teaching, not many teachings.
If you can succinctly give me your definition of the Faith of Christianity, I bet you could not give me a definitive answer. You would struggle to. And where did you get those teachings from, which authority was it, was it just one writing or was it a collection of writings which all said the same thing? You can't just go by one writing, that is why in the Bible we have a collection of different writings but one universal teaching contained within them. That was the purpose of why the Church Fathers selected the books that are in the New Testament. Plus it just made sense to them, the teachings were from God. And it wasn't some intellectual thirst that they had it was that they wanted a universal teaching not many and diverse ones.
Without a universal teaching about God and Christ then we end up where we are now, arguing to no good end. My opinion against yours... But who has the higher authority, the Church or myself? The Fathers certainly were not fools or "evil men", they were holy and blameless, and sought the will of God. Many or most were monastics who lived in the desert and cleansed themselves by their ascetic struggles and became united to and understood God.
And when the Faith was theologically expounded, it did not make the Faith any less of a mystery than it is. In the Christian East, Eastern Orthodoxy, we have a branch of theology called "Apophatic Theology". You may have heard of it. We speak of God as "Negative", we never try to define God as a being or the things of God in an intellectual fashion. Unlike the Roman Catholic West who become the opposite in their theology, they turned to a highly scholastic and intellectual form of theology which turned God and the Spirit of God into a creature and not a mystical being.
Read about that here
Have you ever read the book the Philokalia or the works of St. Maximus the Confessor? You should pick that book up. Its extremely gnostic in its teachings, more than you would know.
Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/15/13 06:45 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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How was Christianity a sect of Judaism, where did you get that teaching from?
We're done here newbie. I practiced Hesychastic contemplations before you were born. You are going to school me on apophatic vs. cataphatic mysticism in Christian traditions? Really? Do you know to what extent these traditions in the Eastern Orthodox Church derive directly from Plotinian Neo-Platonism? Do you understand the philosophical precursors to Christian theology, not to mention the mythological precursors? BTW, read my response again. Matthew was the Judaizer, not the Hellenizer. That was John's modus operandi. Do not presume to preach until you have assessed the recipient. The statement above indicates that you don't know Jack about Christian history. I'd have to say that I learned this from a number of established theologians during my Masters of Theological Studies degree which I completed in 1978 at Drew University. The past 35 years have been spent in an academic and contemplative lifestyle.
These following words are yours: "it was not God's will," "I'm sure God didn't w ant it to be like that, He wanted there to be one Faith and one teaching, not many teachings." "The Fathers certainly were not fools or "evil men", they were holy and blameless, and sought the will of God."
You obviously don't know the meaning of the word pretension. Seriously, don't bother responding, I'll only put you on my Ignore list for my own benefit. You see, I am usually a very patient man, but there is one kind of mentality that I feel compelled to shred, one that is likely to get me banned here. Even my patience has a limit.
Adios
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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viktor
psychotechnician



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There is only one faith, and it's within. What is without is only a set of guidelines for the confused to learn to know themselves. The multiplicity of lies necessitates a multiplicity of outer faiths. But you either know yourself or you live forever in fear and delusion.
Consult the Book of Luke 17:20-21.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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SpiritualWarrior
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: How was Christianity a sect of Judaism, where did you get that teaching from?
We're done here newbie. I practiced Hesychastic contemplations before you were born. You are going to school me on apophatic vs. cataphatic mysticism in Christian traditions? Really? Do you know to what extent these traditions in the Eastern Orthodox Church derive directly from Plotinian Neo-Platonism? Do you understand the philosophical precursors to Christian theology, not to mention the mythological precursors? BTW, read my response again. Matthew was the Judaizer, not the Hellenizer. That was John's modus operandi. Do not presume to preach until you have assessed the recipient. The statement above indicates that you don't know Jack about Christian history. I'd have to say that I learned this from a number of established theologians during my Masters of Theological Studies degree which I completed in 1978 at Drew University. The past 35 years have been spent in an academic and contemplative lifestyle.
These following words are yours: "it was not God's will," "I'm sure God didn't w ant it to be like that, He wanted there to be one Faith and one teaching, not many teachings." "The Fathers certainly were not fools or "evil men", they were holy and blameless, and sought the will of God."
You obviously don't know the meaning of the word pretension. Seriously, don't bother responding, I'll only put you on my Ignore list for my own benefit. You see, I am usually a very patient man, but there is one kind of mentality that I feel compelled to shred, one that is likely to get me banned here. Even my patience has a limit.
Adios 
Going to shut the door on me so soon? If you've studied for 35 years but that doesn't that mean you are all knowing about Christianity.
You seem to have a lot of pretentions about the Faith yourself. That's a lack of character on your part. If you were so sure of your own beliefs you wouldn't be so offended at what I am saying. In fact, you would try to convert me over to your own beliefs. Guess I hit a nerve with that Ephesians quote. If you studied hesychasm or any monastic writings in Eastern Orthodoxy you would realize that the goal of any hesychastic practice is dispassion, do you know what that is? If you had any dispassion in yourself you wouldn't try to block me, that is rather un-Christian of you. Shows that you have a sick soul. If you knew anything at all about hesychasm you would realize that its for the healing of the soul's passions which are illnesses thereof.
We all have to define the Faith, that's what Ephesians said. What so you don't believe in what Paul said? Paul was a very smart man, smarter than you and your 35 years of studying and experience in gnosticism that's for damn sure.
Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 12:31 AM)
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SpiritualWarrior
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
#18847242 - 09/16/13 12:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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viktor said: There is only one faith, and it's within. What is without is only a set of guidelines for the confused to learn to know themselves. The multiplicity of lies necessitates a multiplicity of outer faiths. But you either know yourself or you live forever in fear and delusion.
Consult the Book of Luke 17:20-21.
Depending on what translation you ascribe to it says it is "Within You" but the NIV translation says "In your Midst" referring to Jesus not to inside yourself. So you can't really interpret the text in that way the text is referring to Jesus not to yourself.
Know Yourself yes, but you can't know yourself without listening to teachers who can guide you. Without learning from others more experienced than yourself you are only walking the path of delusion.
Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 12:32 AM)
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TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



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For real? A tiny amount of research will definitely back up what theGnostic is saying. Do a little digging and stop buying into the bullcrap that gets spoon-fed to most Christians out there these days.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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SpiritualWarrior
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#18847275 - 09/16/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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TheGreenArrow said: For real? A tiny amount of research will definitely back up what theGnostic is saying. Do a little digging and stop buying into the bullcrap that gets spoon-fed to most Christians out there these days.
I don't buy into the crap that most Christians buy into, that's the thing.
Markos seems like a very smart man, but there is a kind knowledge and wisdom that is not of the right kind.
Read this if you want to learn about what the right kind of wisdom is.
James 3:13-17 Is there anyone wise and understanding among you? Let him show by his good conduct that his works are in meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and strife in your heart, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where jealousy and strife exist, there unrest and every evil deed are. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those making peace."
A tiny amount of research? I would seriously doubt it. Its not historians he's listening to its teachers who interpreted the Bible. Where is the proof by the way? I want to see some teachings with actual historical documented facts not something someone said in the 20th century either something earlier, much earlier.
Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 01:02 AM)
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viktor
psychotechnician



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SpiritualWarrior said: Know Yourself yes, but you can't know yourself without listening to teachers who can guide you. Without learning from others more experienced than yourself you are only walking the path of delusion.
These are two of the most dangerous lies anyone has ever told.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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SpiritualWarrior
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
#18847341 - 09/16/13 01:03 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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viktor said:
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SpiritualWarrior said: Know Yourself yes, but you can't know yourself without listening to teachers who can guide you. Without learning from others more experienced than yourself you are only walking the path of delusion.
These are two of the most dangerous lies anyone has ever told.
Yeah say that to the drug addicts who overdosed and died or the plane pilot who crashed because he didn't learn flying lessons well enough.
If you don't take advice or teaching from somewhere it only means you are proud and stupid... I'm not saying you shouldn't think for yourself, that's the point you should already know what to listen to and what not to. If you don't listen to anyone then you are way past lost.
Everyone learns from someone, you yourself are the result of what another person has taught you or said. You just picked it up because you personally felt it was important.
Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 01:13 AM)
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viktor
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Why did you edit your above post to remove the passage where Jesus said that the Father was within him?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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SpiritualWarrior
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
#18847361 - 09/16/13 01:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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viktor said: Why did you edit your above post to remove the passage where Jesus said that the Father was within him?
Because Scripture is hard to interpret and people in here might be harmed trying to interpret it.
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viktor
psychotechnician



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Then why did you edit the other post in which you pointed out (quite sensibly) that it's very hard to know if any given teacher is telling the truth?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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SpiritualWarrior
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
#18847413 - 09/16/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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viktor said: Then why did you edit the other post in which you pointed out (quite sensibly) that it's very hard to know if any given teacher is telling the truth?
I don't know why do you ask? It is hard to know if anyone is telling the truth that's why I posted that verse of James chapter 3 talking about the Wisdom of God. There are different kinds of wisdom out there, some of it is earthly, some is even demonic, and some is heavenly or spiritual... from God.
Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 01:45 AM)
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viktor
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I ask because Jesus tells me that you're on the windup and you edit your posts to remove evidence of you contradicting yourself.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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SpiritualWarrior
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
#18847448 - 09/16/13 01:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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viktor said: I ask because Jesus tells me that you're on the windup and you edit your posts to remove evidence of you contradicting yourself.
Is it Jesus or is it your definition of Jesus?
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