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enemyace
Antihero



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 6
Loc: road to nowhere
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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"Invisible Mites" and Contamination 2
#18776782 - 08/30/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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First of all, I would like to say thank you to everybody here at The Shroomery. Even if you've never had anything useful to add to the community, the sheer number of people associated with this wonderful site has allowed one to stumble upon this wealth of information. Thank you.
Now, without further ado:
I've been cultivating using information found mostly here, and managed several excellent tubs (straight to bulk) under my belt by the beginning of warm-weather season. Zero contamination. Great flushes (5 oz dry very first flush, using MS!). I, literally, read about mycology as a whole for an entire year before ever attempting the art behind the science, so I am solidly confident with my own abilities.
Then, suddenly, every single tub contaminated.
No procedure had been changed up to that point, and the only new variable in the home (that I knew of at the time) was a kitten. I couldn't figure out, for the life of me, what was causing the contamination (trichoderma). Well, a few weeks ago, I noticed that after waking in the morning, I would have a few bites on my legs. It wasn't daily, or many of them, but it occurred in such a fashion that allowed the deduction that I was being bitten in bed, during sleep. Then, today, my friend complained about "mosquito bites" on her butt, hands, and legs. After looking at them, I knew right away that they weren't mosquito bites (anyway, they fog this region pretty heavily to kill the mosquito larvae). After some Google searches, a trip to the library, and a call to the CDC, I've concluded that we have an "invisible mite" infestation.
A bit about these mites, and what this all means:
Firstly, it's hard to know exactly which species of mite(s) are present, as they are very difficult, if not impossible, to see with the naked eye alone. In fact, the few different species I will be covering are known informally as "invisible mites". There are, as I understand it, only two genera of four species that have been reported to "bite" humans in this region, excepting the few families that comprise the "itch mites" (of the other mites here, instead of "biting", the mite actually cuts/slices the skin and liquifies the epidermis to feed). As it were, humans aren't the intended hosts for this collective of parasites, yet provide sufficient nourishment, as well as a much more welcoming habitat, to boot! As noted in the case of the "invisibles": as opposed to some other mites that will host on/in mammals indiscriminately, their (the "invisibles") capacity to be truly parasitic to humans (i.e.: remaining on defined host) is all but non-existent, leading some scientists to believe their behavior "accidental". This is also, partially, due to the fact that their migration into urban areas is a relatively new development within their respective species, as well as other factors; including disagreement regarding whether the "invisibles" are capable of reproducing by way of a human host. For example: while some mites feed on skin cells (via injection of digestive enzymes), and others basically siphon hemolymph (read: bug blood), the "invisibles" actually directly consume the blood of their host. As previously noted, there remains some controversy among arthropodologists regarding what could be described, in the case of mites, as adaptation: allowing them to consume hemoglobin for reproduction from unintended surrogate hosts, as it had been previously believed not possible; Furthermore, although the genera that form the "invisibles" do cause cutaneous reactions similar to that of a typical insect bite, they do not transmit infections to humans (with a lone exception: Liponyssoides sanguineus [Allodermanyssus sanguineus], commonly known as the "house mouse mite", can transmit rickettsialpox: an illness that consists of a rash covering the entire body, to include a black, crusty scab at the site of infection coupled with flu-like symptoms.), as most other species of mites do; Although, they do transmit diseases among their respective natural hosts; Altogether though, whichever species of "invisible mites", or combination thereof, is of little significance.
I'll explain why shortly.
So, now you may be asking, "WTF do these mangy, people-bitin' bugs gotta do wit growing 'shroomz?!"
Well: secondly, they are attracted to moisture.
This is one of the many data that have lead me to theorize that it is partially, or possibly in its entirety, any of the species of the "invisibles" that are directly responsible for the previous, and continued, contamination of said monotubs. My theory is this:
The monotubs have been becoming contaminated with trichoderma because the mites will migrate towards the moisture in/around the growing area, where they will scuttle all about, and live within the warm, moist substrate itself, harboring with them whatever mold and bacteria they may have accumulated along the way (including, but not limited to: dust; dander; spores; bacteria; blood; and potentially, an array of other pollutants, as well. Not to mention their shed exoskeletons and feces, also). In doing so, the mites would effectively become a Trojan Horse, of sorts, affording mycologically specific contaminants the ability to usurp the fully colonized substrate, which many mycologists agree should not ordinarily be likely to occur, due to its sheer nature, infecting what would be otherwise sound infrastructure.
Finally, it can be extremely difficult to get rid of the "invisibles", or any mites, from a dwelling entirely. Especially a multi-unit building. There are some generic pesticides available that should help to curb the overall infestation, but concerns become readily apparent when you realize where, exactly, the mites are located. However, I happened across several rave reviews for one particular product, "Kleen Green Enzymes", that purports to be a pet/people-safe and all natural bio-pesticide: manufactured using molasses as its main active ingredient, of which some chemical derivative has been formed that allows the formulation to directly dehydrate the exoskeleton of mites and similar pests upon contact. The obvious catch being getting this bio-elixir directly onto the potentially tens of millions of microscopic arachnids that are significantly less active during the daytime, and invisible all of the time! One user suggested sulphur based soaps and lotions that can be used on ones skin to deter mites from biting. Another simple home remedy suggests placing a rings of Vaseline around the feet of your furniture to discourage mites from residing where they will be more difficult to control. Together, all of the remedies have received mixed reviews, at best. There seems to be no definitive solution to any interior mite infestation of a house. Never mind an apartment building. Based upon what I've read, these "invisible mites" cannot climb/crawl smooth surfaces, so they tend to carpeting and upholsteries (including beds/bedding, curtains, chairs, and textiles), where they are most difficult to supplant; However, due to their size and weight, they can effectively be "gusted" into, and about, the home. Also, by using you, and any other mammals/fowl in the home, there will remain unlimited sustenance for the mites and their offspring. As previously mentioned, the "invisibles" only need blood and a bit of moisture to thrive. And, true to fashion: with parasites, "more is better"! What that means is, that the mites will reside in your bedding and clothing for the warmth of your body, and coincidentally, moisture from condensation, and "accidentally" bite you, the human "host", for their nourishment and reproductive requirements. Imagine: when you plop down on your bean-bag chair to enjoy some wrasslin' and frooty rounds, those critters will delightfully tag along in your clothing, and bask in the radiance of your presence and that of anyone nearby. Literally! Aren't you just a gentleman/lady! And don't forget, all of you cultivators that hob nob with like-minded individuals in person: you could introduce your buddies to your new housemates the next time you see them! Or, if nothing else, you could let a few of those fellas crash on your girl/boyfriend's couch, right?
In summary, I have presented you with the data that I have, myself, compiled to form my hypothesis. Initially, I started a new post with the sole intention of submitting a plea for help; Although, as I began to type, I realized that I had developed a theory, and sticking to ye ol scientific method, I would be able to produce some results that could potentially spare some poor soul the same fate as myself. OR, I could just suck ass at this science, coupled with having possibly partaken in the fruits of my labor (ZING!) with much frequency, prompting subscription to my own self-manifesting, delusional meanderings, which will be used, appropriately, to conceal all inadequacies derived from perpetual mommy issues; Nevertheless, expect some relevant data regarding this yet-to-be-determined plague that has engulfed these quarters.
Simply for troubleshooting/peer review, a companion post outlining employed cultivation methods will be arranged, with the link being added at the bottom of this post at a later time.
Below, I will post links to the relevant information, should any of you get the itch (sorry. that was too much).
I also would like to hear any thoughts and ideas you may have regarding the information presented herein.
General Mite Wiki List of Mites Associated With Cutaneous Reactions Wiki Mite Pest Identification and Control Short Essay on Mites from Texas A&M Positive Review and Testimonial for Bio-Pesticide Product Mite Control Suggestions w/User Reviews Bio-Pesticide Product Page
-------------------- I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: enemyace] 1
#18776909 - 08/30/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Call an exterminator immediately. Those are bed bugs. They are awful, insanely prolific and hard to get rid of. Expect to pay out the ass too, because there is no "home remedy" and landlords always put a "bedbug clause" in the lease, admonishing them from responsibility.
I had bed bugs once. It is a fucking nightmare.
And people who come over take the risk of bringing them home with them, infesting their house as well.
Somehow you missed bedbugs in your research.
Call your landlord.
Call the exterminators.
Do it fast, or you will wake up to rows of them crawling up your walls at night.
Good luck man.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (08/30/13 11:20 AM)
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Trippy_Penguin



Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 624
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18776998 - 08/30/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Do it fast, or you will wake up to rows of them crawling up your walls at night.
I cringed.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: Trippy_Penguin] 1
#18777076 - 08/30/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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It happened to me.
Neighbors brought them in the building (apt complex) and didn't report them to the landlord.
So they spread everywhere.
It costed me personally $800 worth of treatment (Had to have the regular treatment done twice, because one didn't do it), and I had to throw out a room's worth of furniture, including my queen mattress, box spring, dresser and really nice office chair.
I hate hearing stories like the OP's because I get to be the bearer of the worst news he'll hear for months...
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,334
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18777318 - 08/30/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah that definitely sounds like bed bugs. Frank. I feel your pain.
I just got rid of bed bugs. I got lucky though.
My girlfriend and I stayed at a sleezy motel one night because we were broke and stranded. Brought them home with us.
She would wake up with bites on her in the morning and I would have none. The bite marks only show up if you are allergic to their bites.
But yeah this sounds exactly like a bed bug infestation. Check around the seams on your beds. Anywhere the fabric is sewed together or where there is a tight area they could squeeze into. Pull the bed away from the wall and look behind. Look for black marks where there shit has been.
My girlfriend and I fought them off for a long time. It put a huge strain on our relationship. Made it hard for us to go to sleep at night. Gave us money stress trying to save for an exterminator (500 dollar job)
One Night I woke up in the middle of the night and found literally a thousand fucking ants in the master bathroom. Found another thousand fucking ants all over the kitchen. Turns out, black ants eat bed bugs and their eggs. I haven't seen a bed bug for an entire month. *knock on wood* and know bites on her either. I let the ants hang around a few extra days before I called a guy to spray around the apartment. Seems to have worked out.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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enemyace
Antihero



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 6
Loc: road to nowhere
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18779763 - 08/30/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Before anything else, I would like to say thank you, Frank, for your input. Coincidentally, I thought of you when posting.
I had initially cursorily researched the common bed bug, solely presuming that the bites were only occurring whilst in bed. I checked under the bedding, mattress and box spring; along the seams of the mattress and box spring; around the walls nearest the bed; as well as other areas of the home that would favor habitable conditions, checking for bed bugs themselves or any traces (dark dots of fecal matter, exoskeletons, red smears, and the smell of rotting raspberries), and found none of those signs of infestation.
Unfortunately, after a much more thorough review, I have been able to rule out bed bugs in this case based upon the following information (some of which I neglected to directly point out):
While bed bugs typically go unnoticed while feeding, the nymphs (five juvenile stages) are visible to the naked eye, and adults grow to 7 millimeters (!!) in length; By contrast, the largest of the "invisible mites" grows to a scant 0.7mm in length (less than half of the diameter of a pinhead!), most visible only by aid of magnification.
For reference, I found this cool animated guide!: "How big is a...?"
This implies that if one were to feel an itch or tingle, it would be possible to locate a bed bug actively feeding on you, in the same manner that you could see a mosquito feeding. By contrast, in the case of "invisibles", you can feel the itch/tingle and not locate any parasites, even under well-lit conditions; Yet, soon after, see a visible welt near the initial itch site. It's because of this that reports of these "invisible mites" are typically met with redirection, skepticism, and even apathy or contempt (likening the mites to parasitosis: sometimes informally called 'meth bugs').
Bed bugs are hematophagous and only feed on humans when other prey are not available, like "invisible mites", and typical infestations are concentrated in the bedroom(s), (where their new primary host is during their most active hours at night) and attacks occur a night upon commonly uncovered areas of the body while the host sleeps;
Whereas with "invisibles", their minute size allows them to be swept about the home on gusts of air, where they will migrate towards the more warm/humid areas, and attacks can occur at all times of the day since the mites will feed as soon as they have the chance (being distant from the host during opportune hours).
Also, considering the notable difference in size of the two parasites, their respective bites are proportionate in size.
I'm not disregarding your suggestions, but the immediate empirical evidence, in this case, has ruled out bed bugs.
I only wish it were bed bugs, since there is much more readily available information regarding them and ways to rid them of your home; In contrast, mites have been long believed to rarely attack humans, and, with the exception of dust mites [which, should be noted, even THAT research is typically speculative and/or inaccurate] believed to not infest homes; Therefore, currently, the research in regards to home infestation of biting mites is limited in scope and merit, with entomologists at very few universities caching the few technical papers available.
Here are some pictures showing the contrast of the parasites, as well as a few more links.
BED BUG SIZE:

BITES:



FOWL MITE SIZE:

"INVISIBLE MITE" BITES:



Essay Differentiating Between Bed Bugs and Biting Mites Bed Bug Infestation Wiki Overviews of Some Medical Abstracts Regarding Bird Mites Medical Abstract: Case of Pigeon Mite Infestation *PDF FILE*
-------------------- I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer.
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,334
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: enemyace] 1
#18779869 - 08/31/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Find out if Sterifab is effective at killing these mites. It's used to kill bed bugs and dust mites and tons of other pests. You may just want to call pest control to use it but you can buy your own bottle and basically soak your whole house with it. You'll need to run all your clothing through the dryer at least twice and then bag it immediately to kill any mites on your clothes.
That's the best advice I can give. Good luck. Hopefully you'll be able to get it taken care of.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: elasticaltiger] 1
#18780018 - 08/31/13 01:25 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: It happened to me.
Those are bed bugs and bed bug bites.
Those pics that are not yours, that is an extremely large bedbug and bites on someone who is very allergic. Call an exterminator immediately man.
There is no way around it.
Sorry.
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enemyace
Antihero



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 6
Loc: road to nowhere
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18780282 - 08/31/13 03:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks, Elastical, I'll check that out!
@Frank: I just snatched some pics off of the net for comparison. I hadn't intended to claim the rights. Sorry for any confusion. I tried to get a small sample from each to show some of the typical cutaneous responses to the bites of the two parasites, without getting the really nasty ones used for scare tactics. The first four pix are of/from the common bed bug. The last four are from different biting mites. The pic with the arrows are of the largest variety of biting mites, a fowl mite.
Again, Frank, I understand that you've encountered bed bugs. That's not up for challenging; However, what I am saying, is that the infestation that I currently have is not bed bugs. All of the data I've reviewed so far supports my hypothesis, including firsthand testimonials from both Elastical and yourself. The last bit of evidence that I require is: to capture one of these mites (which isn't necessary to support my theory: as long as I don't find any bed bugs, my theory will not have been DISproven). I've spent a great deal researching, compiling, and sharing my findings here because there is very little research about these particular mites available on the internet, and absolutely none on this forum. Again, as I mentioned in my first post, maybe I just suddenly suck ass at cultivation; Nevertheless, I am compelled to share this information (and ultimately, the official results/data) with anybody here that may bother to read my post. Consider how much time and resources you could've saved if somebody else had written your journals, and you read them when you were beginning in mycology. In fact, I can tell you personally, since I actually have read (and applied/attempted) all of your journals. Consider this: between yourself and several other high-standing members of this site, there has been posted on this forum answers and theories that cover almost every single aspect of cultivation from myriad angles. You and those members are constantly experimenting, revising and updating that data. All in one comprehensive, convenient package. Hell, I'm on my phone right now! Then consider how many times, within the next week, somebody is going to create a new post asking why their substrate is shrinking in their monotub. Or how many hours of light a day their SGFC is going to need. Or if they can just boil their grains, since a PC is too expensive.
My point is this: the information is all there to answer all of those questions, and more. But, the event that I posted about doesn't happen in many American homes; notwithstanding ones where mycological sciences are practiced. I have a suspicion that you may not have read my initial (rather winded) post in its entirety. In it, I've proposed a hypothesis, which by its very nature, requires that I either prove (through whatever empirical evidence available/obtainable) MY theory, or at least am not able to disprove said hypothesis in order to confirm my theory. Following that, I described in length, the evidence I currently have, what I have researched, and what other evidence I would need to support the theory. I posed no questions, and instead invited everybody to share their information.
And I appreciate that you have.
To reiterate, there is no disagreement as to whether you have had bed bugs, but there seems to be some misinterpretation about whether I do.
I assure you, I do not.
-------------------- I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer.
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enemyace
Antihero



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 6
Loc: road to nowhere
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: enemyace] 1
#18780323 - 08/31/13 04:55 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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As an afterthought:
The reason I've posted my initial thread in the "Mushroom Cultivation" (possibly slightly more suited to "Contamination"...) Forum, is because I theorize that these mites are direct causation of contaminated tubs.
During my research, I've yet to discover *any* person who has made the claim that bed bugs are contaminating their substrate.
If, in fact, these mites are the cause of substrate contamination, the information could be a boon to anybody else who may suddenly find themselves in a similar position, as there's no other information linking these mites with mycological contamination. Especially now: as some research I've linked suggests that home infestations of these mites, while rare, are beginning to occur more frequently; However, the cause(s) has still yet to be determined.
So, let's focus on some possible solutions to share with the community.
-------------------- I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer.
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Carion
Blazin
Registered: 08/05/13
Posts: 24
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: enemyace] 1
#18780451 - 08/31/13 07:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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My condolences man. My friend had bed bug trouble for a while, but luckily wasn't cultivating at the time. Good luck on future endeavors!
-------------------- New but learning!
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: "Invisible Mites" and Contamination [Re: Carion] 1
#18781120 - 08/31/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Look man, you can write novels if you'd like but what you described is classic bed bugs.
Every site with info about bed bugs reads like the first few paragraphs of your first post.
I read what you have described. It'd be impossible to miss these indicators of bed bugs unless you are being willfully ignorant.
Those pictures you found, they are of BIG bed bugs. Most bed bugs are pretty much invisible to the naked eye, esp in the dark. Once they get so big you can see them, the infestation is going to be much worse.
The solution is to call the exterminator.
If you don't, you will be paying out the ass for multiple landlords. They will charge you for it if you don't tell them. And they will be with you everywhere you move because those bitey little fuckers come with you.
And are they messing with your grow? Is it in the same room?
The solution to that issue is to eliminate the pests and see if that is the problem. So...call the exterminator.
Most of us don't grow in the same house as an active pest problem.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (08/31/13 04:57 PM)
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enemyace
Antihero



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 6
Loc: road to nowhere
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Well,
Two weeks, two exterminators, and $400 later:
Neither of the exterminators, (one local company, one chain company) found any bed bugs. Or any bugs, for that matter (excepting a few rogue spiders). The local guy, however, said he did find some shed exoskeletons, but couldn't identify them without a live bug. I'm going to check with a (yet another) pest control specialist from a few miles out that may have more experience with these particular critters.
I kept one of my last contaminated tubs (heat-sealed within a clear 7 mil bag) for study, so it may be possible to recover something from that.
In the meantime, I guess I can still do agar work...
And this thread should be moved to the "Contamination" forum.
-------------------- I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer.
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