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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18818741 - 09/09/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jimiandtheshroom27 said:
I think referring to Buddhism as a mental virus is a pretty unfounded allegation. Virus has extremely negative connotations. Do you have some sort of evidence that Buddhism is harmful to the psyche?

And i don't think asceticism is fanatical behaviour. Perhaps constant asceticism is, but most Buddhists do not constantly abstain from worldly pleasures.




What kind of evidence do you want? As far as I know there haven't been any studies regarding the harm of this religion or that.


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18818750 - 09/09/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry poor choice of word. Rather, explain why you think it is a mental virus?


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18818931 - 09/09/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Too distracted to really get in depth right now, but Buddhism is a philosophy based off assumptions. From karma and reincarnation, to pacifism and single mindedness.

If someone spends enough time considering whether or not those ideas are worth holding, then I would feel differently about Buddhism as a whole but I've met few who really critique these ideas before adhering to them and they're not generally presented in a manner which suggests that. Albeit there are exceptions, it really depends on who is talking about Buddhism (Dalai Lama for example) whether or not I view it in a negative light.

To be fair I hold Buddhism above most religions and the overly negative description of it as a virus is to emphasize that not everyone buys into it. At the end of the day its a series of assumptions which people mindlessly subscribe to, from which they base their whole mindset.


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18819018 - 09/09/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Fair enough. It's true that religion and critical thinking just don't mix.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18819122 - 09/09/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jimiandtheshroom27 said:
Quote:

Can't say I agree, people ultimately fight over habitat and territories




What about religious wars? Or would you argue ultimately its still about territory?

I think you have to separate what drives people to war and what war actually is. War is fighting over habitat and territories, but the ideology behind war isn't a desire to fight over habitat and territories for fun. That's where religion and nationalism come in.




Territory. Personal survival goes above the concept of religion.

Just like it was 10000 years back or since dawn of man with no religious concepts.

Would you not say the organisms instinctual desire is the source to irrational delusions?


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18819216 - 09/09/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I get what you are saying, but are you saying all war is fought because of instinctual desire? 
I agree that it is largely still do to do with territory, but say the iraq war- the soldiers that fought in it weren't fighting for their own territory were they? I don't think its exactly the same as it was back before religion. Then fighting for territory was literally just that- there was no cultural significance to it, and it was more natural. I don't think humans had wars before religion did they? as you say it was personal survival. But many soldiers now do not fight for personal survival.

would you argue that fighting war because of "religion" is not the true reason? are you saying that religious wars do not really exist, and that humans calling wars religious is simply the product of humans getting more clever and masking their instinctive desire to kill behind the pretext of religion?


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Or just another lost angel?
City of Night, City of Night,
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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18819254 - 09/09/13 03:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Would you not say the organisms instinctual desire is the source to irrational delusions?




And yes i think it can be the source, but i think the human psyche is a lot more complicated than that. People can have irrational delusions for other reasons besides instinctual desire. Although, it depends how wide you are making instinctual desire.

Most animals live only off of instinctual desire and yet most of their actions are quite rational are they not?


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Are you a lucky little lady in the City of Light
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City of Night, City of Night, woo, c'mon


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18822428 - 09/10/13 08:31 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I get what you are saying, but are you saying all war is fought because of instinctual desire? 

Yes.

What else would it be?

I agree that it is largely still do to do with territory, but say the iraq war- the soldiers that fought in it weren't fighting for their own territory were they?

They might not fight for their land directly but they fight for their immortality, which has everything to do with territory and habitat.

I don't think humans had wars before religion did they?

What makes you think so?

But many soldiers now do not fight for personal survival.

Sure they do, indirectly.

would you argue that fighting war because of "religion" is not the true reason? are you saying that religious wars do not really exist, and that humans calling wars religious is simply the product of humans getting more clever and masking their instinctive desire to kill behind the pretext of religion?

That's right, religion is merely one of many shields.

Divide and conquer.

Most animals live only off of instinctual desire and yet most of their actions are quite rational are they not?

How are they rational?


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18822487 - 09/10/13 08:57 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

"Phluck said:
And while "We are all one" is pretty naive, things are changing pretty quickly. Due to accelerated communications technology, a global economy, and the ease at which we can transport ourselves to anywhere in the world, cultures are no longer geographically fixed.

There is often a greater cultural divide between any two random people within a single city than two random people from opposite sides of the planet.

Power is no longer entirely militaristic, corporations are entities which amass economic power and they are not tied to a people or a location. A power struggle does not necessarily mean a war, it can just as easily mean an attempt to grab a market.

We no longer live in a world where most people define themselves by their nationality. People identify themselves by their cultural preferences and political or philosophical opinions rather than by their heritage.

The sets of opinions within nations are no longer homogenous. Rivalries are between subcultures and schools of thought rather than between nations.

Nationalism is flawed because it is obsolete, it is a relic of a time when people were largely uneducated, and tied to their place of origin rather than their ideas.
"

Sums up my thoughts pretty much.


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18823346 - 09/10/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What else would it be?

Well I'm not too sure, let's say hatred, which isn't instinctual desire.  Although since its liquidlounge, i imagine you will :grin: I don't think hatred is shown in other animals, but im pretty sure hatred is a force that drives people to kill each other on a battlefield.

but they fight for their immortality

What do you mean? Can you explain what you mean by that without using conjecture based around their ego?

Quote:

What makes you think so?



Religion has been around a very long time. Not necessarily religions as we know them today, but one of the things that most likely helped societies work was a consensus caused by religion. I don't think humans living together in communities and religious concepts being inside people's heads are two items in history that are very far apart, if at all.

Sure they do, indirectly.

Again, can you explain what you mean without conjecture based around the ego that cannot be proved nor disproved.

That's right, religion is merely one of many shields.

Interesting view

Divide and conquer.
I'm sorry, no doubt you'll find my stupidity tedious, but please, if you comment on my posts, please refrain from using annoying one liners where I'm expected to see what you mean. You have to realise, i do not necessarily share your views, therefore a three word sentence with no furthur elaboration can make it hard for me to see what you are saying. You have a habit of doing this, and respectfully I'd ask that if you are going to reply to one of posts, please actually explain what you mean if you say something like that.

How are they rational?

Well most of their behaviour is very in line with what they seek to achieve, their behaviour is usually based towards food or fucking.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18823910 - 09/10/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Well I'm not too sure, let's say hatred, which isn't instinctual desire.  Although since its liquidlounge, i imagine you will :grin: I don't think hatred is shown in other animals, but im pretty sure hatred is a force that drives people to kill each other on a battlefield.

I wouldn't say hatred is the main factor in war. It's just a human emotion. In the end, desire to survive and exist is what drives the organism and it will thus do whatever it takes to do so.

What do you mean? Can you explain what you mean by that without using conjecture based around their ego?

Expanding of genes, here under evolution.

Religion has been around a very long time.

Since dawn of man?

Again, can you explain what you mean without conjecture based around the ego that cannot be proved nor disproved.

Expanding of genes, here under evolution. Life/existence after death is merely a shield IMO.

I'm sorry, no doubt you'll find my stupidity tedious, but please, if you comment on my posts, please refrain from using annoying one liners where I'm expected to see what you mean. You have to realise, i do not necessarily share your views, therefore a three word sentence with no furthur elaboration can make it hard for me to see what you are saying. You have a habit of doing this, and respectfully I'd ask that if you are going to reply to one of posts, please actually explain what you mean if you say something like that.

Not sure where or how you believe I find you stupid, this is it not correct. I should have been more specific. Religion is used to divide and conquer.

Well most of their behaviour is very in line with what they seek to achieve, their behaviour is usually based towards food or fucking.

Don't forget divide and conquer, I don't see what is rational with that, it reminds me of the prime driving force in humans or any organism.


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18826812 - 09/11/13 08:04 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn't say hatred is the main factor in war.

I don't think i would either, but you asked me what else could factor in war. Like someone pasted earlier, in WW2 and in many other wars, soldiers are taught to hate the enemy, to dehumanise them. I suppose there are two faces to war- after all there are those who decide it should be war and their reasons, and the soldiers that actually do the killing and the reasons that are fed to them.

desire to survive and exist is what drives the organism and it will thus do whatever it takes to do so

I agree that it does drive an organism, and yes i suppose you could say it drives the organism to war, in the sense that if the organism goes to war, it only exists because of its drive to survive and exist, therefore since it would not take any action at all (including war) if  it had no desire to survive and exist, you could say that the desire to survive and exist is responsible for war- but i can't help but think you'd be generalising to apply it in that way. Almost everything we do is based around a desire to survive and exist, is it not? Whilst that's true, there are additional reasons that dictate what sort of things we do to survive and exist ie religion. Of course i'm making survive and exist a very large umbrella here.

Expanding of genes, here under evolution.

I still don't quite understand what you mean. How does going to war expand genes? And what do you mean by evolution in war?

Since dawn of man?
Maybe. This is something no one really knows for sure, but as i said i don't think religious concepts were very far apart historically from humans first starting to live in basic society. Of course im not talking about Christianity etc here, i mean basic religious concepts such as reverence of the sun, rituals etc. So i would argue that humans have not had wars before religious concepts, even if in a very basic form. I'm pretty sure that societies have to exist for humans to wage war against each other.

Life/existence after death is merely a shield IMO.
Which point of mine is this in reference to- soldiers not fighting for personal survival? its grouped right next to the point about it after.

Not sure where or how you believe I find you stupid
Contemptuous remarks you made on your humour is destructive post, and on another page where i saw you be annoyed at someone not getting your point. It doesn't really matter, anyway, i apologise for not keeping it impersonal as these threads should be.

Religion is used to divide and conquer.
Interesting. When you say used- in other words are you saying someone is consciously using it to do so? Those in power or something?  Do you think it is has always been always used, or does it just divide by existing?

Don't forget divide and conquer
Aren't we talking about animals now, not how religion is used to divide and conquer? or is there a link to animals im not seeing?

I don't see what is rational with that, it reminds me of the prime driving force in humans or any organism.

Why is not rational? Haven't you yourself said that an organism seeks to expand its genes? food and fucking- survival and passing on genes are surely the biological goals of life?

In humans, i agree i don't think it is as rational, but only if you are claiming an independence from nature. What i mean by that is, if all life on this earth seeks to reproduce and pass on its genes, and therefore acts in accordance by trying to find food and fucking, surely that is rational? Do you mean rationality in the human sense? i am talking about a greater rationality- organisms doing what they need to survive. If they stopped doing it, they would die.  The only reason it is not as rational for humans to only think about fucking and surviving is that we have other goals and aims, we have incredibly complex psyches.


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Are you a lucky little lady in the City of Light
Or just another lost angel?
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Offlinenebhazard5
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: extreme]
    #18827810 - 09/11/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

heh heh


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18828340 - 09/11/13 03:27 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think i would either, but you asked me what else could factor in war. Like someone pasted earlier, in WW2 and in many other wars, soldiers are taught to hate the enemy, to dehumanise them. I suppose there are two faces to war- after all there are those who decide it should be war and their reasons, and the soldiers that actually do the killing and the reasons that are fed to them.

All this is based on instinctual desire. I try to find the root and core in humans, what about you?

Almost everything we do is based around a desire to survive and exist, is it not?

:thumbup:

I still don't quite understand what you mean. How does going to war expand genes? And what do you mean by evolution in war?

Through controlled territory and habitat.

Maybe. This is something no one really knows for sure, but as i said i don't think religious concepts were very far apart historically from humans first starting to live in basic society. Of course im not talking about Christianity etc here, i mean basic religious concepts such as reverence of the sun, rituals etc. So i would argue that humans have not had wars before religious concepts, even if in a very basic form. I'm pretty sure that societies have to exist for humans to wage war against each other.

The root to religion is intelligence, and most likely scare tactics from an authority. I doubt humans were clever enough to figure out bad and good fantasies/spirits ever since dawn of man.

However, you wrote:

I don't think humans had wars before religion did they?

Yet this kind of contradicts what you wrote in in the second paragraph to the post I am replying too:

I agree that it does drive an organism, and yes i suppose you could say it drives the organism to war, in the sense that if the organism goes to war, it only exists because of its drive to survive and exist, therefore since it would not take any action at all (including war) if  it had no desire to survive and exist, you could say that the desire to survive and exist is responsible for war- but i can't help but think you'd be generalising to apply it in that way.

Would you agree it does?

Are religions and spiritual beliefs based on desire to survive or exist?

Which point of mine is this in reference to- soldiers not fighting for personal survival? its grouped right next to the point about it after.

That warriors may fight because of belief in life after death, dying as hero and you become divine.

Contemptuous remarks you made on your humour is destructive post, and on another page where i saw you be annoyed at someone not getting your point. It doesn't really matter, anyway, i apologise for not keeping it impersonal as these threads should be.

Send me a PM if you want to debate my behaviour.

Interesting. When you say used- in other words are you saying someone is consciously using it to do so? Those in power or something?  Do you think it is has always been always used, or does it just divide by existing?

Anyone claiming to be more right than another is trying to divide and conquer. This is what belief is built on. I/we're right, you're wrong. In the broader picture religion is used as a tool to divide societies and conquer land.

Aren't we talking about animals now, not how religion is used to divide and conquer? or is there a link to animals im not seeing?

The organism is dividing and conquering to survive. To the very core of existence.

What about breathing air?

We may change divide and conquer with separating and control. The organism adapts to survive.

Why is not rational? Haven't you yourself said that an organism seeks to expand its genes? food and fucking- survival and passing on genes are surely the biological goals of life?

How is sanity evil? Certainly sanity is being mentally healthy. I don't see how being mentally healthy equals dividing and conquering.


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18831420 - 09/12/13 07:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

All this is based on instinctual desire. I try to find the root and core in humans, what about you?
But the root and core of all life is to survive and reproduce.
You haven't found the root/core of humans really because what you have found is the root/core of all life. That's why i think you are generalising. Yes, whilst surviving and reproducing is at the bottom of the triangle, surely you dont deny that the rest of what is on top has a big effect?

Through controlled territory and habitat.
This is subconscious is it?

most likely scare tactics from an authority
Where did original religious thought come from then?

Yet this kind of contradicts what you wrote in in the second paragraph

I don't really see how. Yes i agree, ultimately people fight wars because of a desire to survive and exist, based on the way you have defined the desire to survive and exist. However, a desire to survive and exist is not in itself responsible for causing the war- hence why animals do not really have wars as such. A desire to survive and exist only causes war in so much as that leads to products, such as religion, that can cause war.

Are religions and spiritual beliefs based on desire to survive or exist?
As i've said yes they are, everything is based on it. This does not mean that desire to survive and exist caused the war.
Although now i think we are really talking about causation and such. If i give birth to a son that kills someone, am i responsible for his death sheerly because my son would not exist because of me? Did i cause his death? No. In a similar way though religion ultimately stems from a desire to survive or exist, like everything else, it does not mean that the desire to survive and exist is responsible for causing the war.

That warriors may fight because of belief in life after death.
They might. They might fight for other reasons too. I dont think dying as a hero is something all soldiers fight for. What about soldiers who are drafted? 

Anyone claiming to be more right than another is trying to divide and conquer.
How can that be true? people often claim to be more right than eachother in conversations with just two people. how can you divide and conquer one person?

This is what belief is built on. I/we're right, you're wrong. In the broader picture religion is used as a tool to divide societies and conquer land. Yes there is division but conquering? surely lots of people have beliefs and don't think others beliefs are wrong? all they think is that the other persons belief are wrong for themselves, not that they are actually wrong

In the broader picture religion is used as a tool to divide societies and conquer land.

Again with the used. by who?

The organism is dividing and conquering to survive. To the very core of existence.

If you turn that into separating and controlling then yes i agree with you. Again i think this leads back to the causation problem.

How is sanity evil? Certainly sanity is being mentally healthy. I don't see how being mentally healthy equals dividing and conquering

I am very confused. I didn't say any either of those things.
I am merely saying that having behaviour driven towards food and fucking makes sense for animals who have no real other desires.


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Or just another lost angel?
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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18832422 - 09/12/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

But the root and core of all life is to survive and reproduce.

There is your answer.

This is subconscious is it?

While I don't deny its subconscious factor, what makes you write subconscious?It's the organisms desire to survive and reproduce.

Where did original religious thought come from then?

Irrationality.

I don't really see how. Yes i agree, ultimately people fight wars because of a desire to survive and exist, based on the way you have defined the desire to survive and exist. However, a desire to survive and exist is not in itself responsible for causing the war- hence why animals do not really have wars as such. A desire to survive and exist only causes war in so much as that leads to products, such as religion, that can cause war.

Humans are intelligent species with desire to expand based on curiosity.

They might. They might fight for other reasons too. I dont think dying as a hero is something all soldiers fight for. What about soldiers who are drafted?

I think so, they fight against the bad guys and is indoctrinated to hate the other side. This is heroism because "we're better than them". And if you die for your side, you have died for "a good cause".

As i've said yes they are, everything is based on it. This does not mean that desire to survive and exist caused the war.

The root or core is the very cause of everything IMO.

If i give birth to a son that kills someone, am i responsible for his death sheerly because my son would not exist because of me? Did i cause his death? No.

You're not responsible for his actions, but if it weren't for your desire to survive and reproduce, your son would not have killed someone.

In a similar way though religion ultimately stems from a desire to survive or exist, like everything else, it does not mean that the desire to survive and exist is responsible for causing the war.

If there were no desire to exist there would be no religions.

I dont think dying as a hero is something all soldiers fight for. What about soldiers who are drafted?

Of course, some are forced into war and are thus not dying as heroes.

Yes there is division but conquering? surely lots of people have beliefs and don't think others beliefs are wrong? all they think is that the other persons belief are wrong for themselves, not that they are actually wrong

I suppose some are open minded but a minority amongst religious people IMO.

Again with the used. by who?

If you don't behave you go to hell.

I am very confused. I didn't say any either of those things.
I am merely saying that having behaviour driven towards food and fucking makes sense for animals who have no real other desires.


Do whatever it takes to survive, this is evil and animals are no different than humans.


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18832552 - 09/12/13 01:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You are saying that everything humans do is based on desire to exist and survive right? I can certainly see how that logic works so I'm gonna agree with you for this thread, although i don't share your views personally, or rather, i wouldn't base my arguments on them.

That is what you are saying right?

what makes you write subconscious?
Just trying to understand what you were saying better, wasn't trying to critique it (at that point)

but if it weren't for your desire to survive and reproduce, your son would not have killed someone

That's true. But that doesn't mean the two are linked in any way except from that the latter could not have happened without the former. This is why i think you are generalising. It's not so different from saying " ultimately, people fight because of the sun. The sun allowed life to flourish on earth, and it was inevitable this life would turn into vicious human beings that fight." Of course, your argument isn't absurd like that and i see where you are coming from but that is where your logic leads does it not?


Of course, some are forced into war and are thus not dying as heroes.
Yet these soldiers play a part in making the war happen- you cannot have a war without soldiers to fight it. The point is, war can happen without soldiers desiring to become divine.

minority amongst religious people IMO.
I disagree.  Most religious people i have met have not ever implied that what others believe is wrong, unless its been an actual debate where we are trying to prove the other wrong for sport if you will. I suppose that yes, deep down subconsciously they believe me to be wrong, but surely to divide and conquer in the way you describe using religion one must literally consciously think the other is wrong.

If you don't behave you go to hell.
I'm not denying religion carries out that action, but who uses it? is there some scheming collection of elite officials that use it?
What im trying to get at is that the way in which you say religion is used to divide and conquer surely requires some sort of intelligent user?


Do whatever it takes to survive, this is evil and animals are no different than humans.
So animals are evil? All nature is evil? what made you, ultimately any other person on earth, all life as we know is evil, because it does what it has to survive?

I don't personally think evil even exists.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18837332 - 09/13/13 03:08 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You are saying that everything humans do is based on desire to exist and survive right? I can certainly see how that logic works so I'm gonna agree with you for this thread, although i don't share your views personally, or rather, i wouldn't base my arguments on them.

That is what you are saying right?


Why would you not base your arguments on the core of the organism?

Yes.

Just trying to understand what you were saying better, wasn't trying to critique it (at that point)

Okay but why did you write or mention the subconscious?

That's true. But that doesn't mean the two are linked in any way except from that the latter could not have happened without the former. This is why i think you are generalising. It's not so different from saying " ultimately, people fight because of the sun. The sun allowed life to flourish on earth, and it was inevitable this life would turn into vicious human beings that fight." Of course, your argument isn't absurd like that and i see where you are coming from but that is where your logic leads does it not?

Good point.

But we're talking about the organism or human in this case, not the sun.

Yet these soldiers play a part in making the war happen- you cannot have a war without soldiers to fight it. The point is, war can happen without soldiers desiring to become divine.

On the other hand, can war happen with no desire to survive? Or how do you battle with no desire to survive?

Desire to survive is heroism or denial of impermanence put in practice.

I disagree.  Most religious people i have met have not ever implied that what others believe is wrong, unless its been an actual debate where we are trying to prove the other wrong for sport if you will. I suppose that yes, deep down subconsciously they believe me to be wrong, but surely to divide and conquer in the way you describe using religion one must literally consciously think the other is wrong.

Why are there so many religious wars (still built on desire to survive)?

I'm not denying religion carries out that action, but who uses it? is there some scheming collection of elite officials that use it?
What im trying to get at is that the way in which you say religion is used to divide and conquer surely requires some sort of intelligent user?


Leaders or elites are profiting off religions or else it would not exist. Just like alcohol and cigarettes are legal whilst marijuana is banned.

So animals are evil? All nature is evil? what made you, ultimately any other person on earth, all life as we know is evil, because it does what it has to survive?

I don't personally think evil even exists.


Nature has good or positive sides as well IMO, it's a rarity:peyotespectrum: :rocket:

Evil is the general term of what is normally bad.

Would you not agree that the organisms force to do whatever it takes goes in under this general term.


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18841174 - 09/14/13 01:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Why would you not base your arguments on the core of the organism?
I feel like i might be repeating myself here- because just because something is the core or something, doesn't mean it is the most significant factor, or rather, the factor we should focus on. Let me put it like this- the sun causes skin cancer. Yes it does, but it is the uv rays that actually cause it. In a similar way, yes human's desire to survive and exist causes war, and as you say almost all human activity but how does it? the factors that follow are not separate from human's desire to exist, they are crucial representations of it. The factors following have their own merit. It is reductionist to say war is caused by human desire to survive. It is not wrong, but reductionist.

Okay but why did you write or mention the subconscious?
Because i found it strange that humans could subconsciously be going to war to expand their genes through controlled territory and habitat.  I still do. I don't necessarily disagree with you. But I just don't know if humans are really that bound in chains by this need to expand genes. What about people who abstain from sex altogether? People who are content with having no real place of home?

But we're talking about the organism or human in this case, not the sun.

What caused the organism to live? The sun. Was it a conscious thought of the organism to survive and exist before it developed a brain? Is DNA really so different from the laws of the universe that cause the sun to provide heat to this planet?

On the other hand, can war happen with no desire to survive?

I do not deny war cannot exist without a desire to survive, but i feel my previous points have dealt with this.

Desire to survive is heroism or denial of impermanence put in practice.
Surely it is the other way round or something. Desire to survive is present in almost all life, surely plants do not suffer heroism.

Why are there so many religious wars (still built on desire to survive)?
I think the number of truly religious wars is overplayed. Religion is one of many factors that can make soldiers fight against each other. Religious people who fight in wars may be suffering due to the will of some twat who has forced their desire to divide and conquer onto them, but i don't think that religion is "used" by many of the actual soldiers who fight in them.

Leaders or elites are profiting off religions or else it would not exist. Just like alcohol and cigarettes are legal whilst marijuana is banned.

Define religion. If you are talking about organised religion, ie catholic church Christianity, i don't think i disagree with you. If you are talking about spirituality in general, or religious concepts i strongly disagree. 

Would you not agree that the organisms force to do whatever it takes goes in under this general term.

Absolutely not. Evil requires a psyche that understand it to exist. Evil is like the tree in the woods that falls, but makes no sound unless someone hears it.  Evil is largely something we label things rather than it actually existing. This is why i argue evil does not really exist.

I wonder, if i can borrow your argument?  Let us say all organisms desire to survive and exist and this penetrates through to our psyches, as you say. Hypothetically, I ask, why do we find things evil?

Because we desire to survive and exist- What do we fear more than another organisms force to do whatever it takes to survive and exist?


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Or just another lost angel?
City of Night, City of Night,
City of Night, City of Night, woo, c'mon


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18843829 - 09/15/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I feel like i might be repeating myself here- because just because something is the core or something, doesn't mean it is the most significant factor, or rather, the factor we should focus on.

Ultimately, it certainly is. This is how we learn from it.

Let me put it like this- the sun causes skin cancer. Yes it does, but it is the uv rays that actually cause it.

How would we learn from or even understand UV rays if it weren't for studies on the sun?

In a similar way, yes human's desire to survive and exist causes war, and as you say almost all human activity but how does it?

To learn from your mistakes, you question them to the absolute core and not just the edge of it.

Because i found it strange that humans could subconsciously be going to war to expand their genes through controlled territory and habitat.  I still do. I don't necessarily disagree with you. But I just don't know if humans are really that bound in chains by this need to expand genes. What about people who abstain from sex altogether? People who are content with having no real place of home? But I just don't know if humans are really that bound in chains by this need to expand genes. What about people who abstain from sex altogether? People who are content with having no real place of home?

People are constantly expanding their presence, whether through genes and or simply by breathing. Now there are destructive and non-destructive or less destructive ways of doing this. I believe it's possible to constantly expand with focus on healthy ecology, maybe not in 2013 but in the future, possibly through the scientific method.

What caused the organism to live? The sun.

The sun was a part of it but hardly the absolute root.

Was it a conscious thought of the organism to survive and exist before it developed a brain?

There was predetermined desire to exist. I am not entirely sure what to call the stage before this, but I assume it's best described as spreading of bacteria or virus - desire is not the right word.

Is DNA really so different from the laws of the universe that cause the sun to provide heat to this planet?

Care to elaborate more on DNA and laws of the universe?

I do not deny war cannot exist without a desire to survive, but i feel my previous points have dealt with this.

So on the battlefield, every soldier will do what it takes to survive, well unless one is in a state of shock.

Wars are fought by leaders solely for the desire to expand and this is based on survival, or else the neighboring tribe or country won't hesitate takeover.

Surely it is the other way round or something. Desire to survive is present in almost all life, surely plants do not suffer heroism.

Again, I am not sure what this word I am looking for is, it's not desire but still it breeds as desire. Do you know?

I think the number of truly religious wars is overplayed. Religion is one of many factors that can make soldiers fight against each other. Religious people who fight in wars may be suffering due to the will of some twat who has forced their desire to divide and conquer onto them, but i don't think that religion is "used" by many of the actual soldiers who fight in them.

It's used in the way that religious people 'die for God/god', heroism.

Define religion. If you are talking about organised religion, ie catholic church Christianity, i don't think i disagree with you. If you are talking about spirituality in general, or religious concepts i strongly disagree.

It's profitable the way people are unfocused in the objective reality they exist in.

Absolutely not. Evil requires a psyche that understand it to exist. Evil is like the tree in the woods that falls, but makes no sound unless someone hears it.  Evil is largely something we label things rather than it actually existing. This is why i argue evil does not really exist.

According to the dictionary it's by all means evil:

1. Morally bad or wrong
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune
4. Bad or blameworthy by report
5. Characterized by anger or spite

Would you rather want to call the organism morally bad or what causes ruin?

I wonder, if i can borrow your argument?  Let us say all organisms desire to survive and exist and this penetrates through to our psyches, as you say. Hypothetically, I ask, why do we find things evil?

Because external organisms want to take the individual down and feed off it.

Because we desire to survive and exist- What do we fear more than another organisms force to do whatever it takes to survive and exist?

Our own impermanence.

I enjoyed your last two paragraphs. :thumbup:


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