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Offlinest1llnox
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Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) * 2
    #18835412 - 09/13/13 01:49 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Slightly old news (March of this year) but still amusing

****************************************************************

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city.

The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court’s decision that the city did not discriminate against Robert Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.

“This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America against people of a certain class,” Jordan said today from his Waterford home. “I maintain you have no more control over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your gender or anything else.”

He said he does not plan to take any further legal action.

Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.

Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average.

Jordan alleged his rejection from the police force was discrimination. He sued the city, saying his civil rights were violated because he was denied equal protection under the law.

But the U.S. District Court found that New London had “shown a rational basis for the policy.” In a ruling dated Aug. 23, the 2nd Circuit agreed. The court said the policy might be unwise but was a rational way to reduce job turnover.

Jordan has worked as a prison guard since he took the test.


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Edited by st1llnox (09/13/13 02:03 AM)


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox]
    #18835430 - 09/13/13 01:57 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Jesus.  You can't make this up.  Or can you - what's the link?

:bathtub40lol: regardless


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Offlinest1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #18835438 - 09/13/13 02:04 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Jesus.  You can't make this up.  Or can you - what's the link?

:bathtub40lol: regardless




I added it into the post... thanks for making me aware of this oversight.


--------------------
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OfflineChuckfinely
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Registered: 06/27/13
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox] * 1
    #18835900 - 09/13/13 07:40 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Don't want any police smart enough to think for themselves, thats for sure :thumbup:

this way they can just have a bunch of mindless idiotic drones to arrest kids with a joint and ruin their lives without a second thought


You know how police have to be tased before they can carry one? I think they should also have to go to jail for 3 months before theyre allowed to jail anyone :shrug:


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OfflineLuSiD enthusiast
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Chuckfinely] * 1
    #18836119 - 09/13/13 09:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
Don't want any police smart enough to think for themselves, thats for sure :thumbup:

this way they can just have a bunch of mindless idiotic drones to arrest kids with a joint and ruin their lives without a second thought


You know how police have to be tased before they can carry one? I think they should also have to go to jail for 3 months before theyre allowed to jail anyone :shrug:



Qft

:cop: We don't like your smart types around these parts. Why don't you go out to california, with all your other hoighty, toighty, friends.


--------------------
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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox] * 1
    #18836125 - 09/13/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:pokerawe:


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OfflineCan-i-bus
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #18836137 - 09/13/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I remember seeing something like this on Michael Moore's show.

Honestly you gotta be pretty dull to score below a 27 on the Wonderlic....


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InvisibleFuturesight
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #18836147 - 09/13/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You might have heard this one before, but... FUCK THE POLICE.:cookiemonster:


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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Futuresight] * 1
    #18836766 - 09/13/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Courts should not stand behind this bullshit.

First, it is blatantly discriminatory. Now, if it were the other way around, and they were barring someone who scored slightly above the "mentally challenged" range, and the ruling was more like "we have judged that the candidate, as tested, does not or may not have the mental capacity to perform the job up to standard," that would be fair. You wouldn't give a chemical engineering gig to a manager from McDonalds. But IMHO to say "you're perfectly qualified for this job, but you're a little too smart and we think you might get bored," is discriminatory. So what, they get bored? That's on them. Maybe it means they just look for more stuff to do, and go above and beyond the call of duty?  I've seen boredom translate that way before.


The other reason it's stupid is obvious. Or should be. This shit is dangerous. This is the reason we have so many aggressive jerkoff cops out there, who would rather use their muscle than their brains. Fuck conversation and facts-- beat the "suspects" down and ask questions later.


Maybe if they started hiring cops  that were further away from the "mentally handicapped" IQ range, we'd see less brutality, and stupid bullshit with the police.



I really think people need to protest this.


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OfflineKonyap

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 33,945
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18840747 - 09/14/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You'd have to be a college dropout to get below 125:lol:


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InvisibleClockCode
A Lonely Hypha


Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 546
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Konyap]
    #18840775 - 09/14/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Lots of smart people drop out of college.  I think dropping out has more to do with discipline, money, or motivation than intelligence.

I'd say, "You'd have to be someone with average intelligence to get below 125."


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: ClockCode]
    #18841625 - 09/14/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ClockCode said:
Lots of smart people drop out of college.  I think dropping out has more to do with discipline, money, or motivation than intelligence.

I'd say, "You'd have to be someone with average intelligence to get below 125."




:gooby:


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Offlinest1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: ClockCode]
    #18841646 - 09/14/13 04:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Courts should not stand behind this bullshit.

First, it is blatantly discriminatory. Now, if it were the other way around, and they were barring someone who scored slightly above the "mentally challenged" range, and the ruling was more like "we have judged that the candidate, as tested, does not or may not have the mental capacity to perform the job up to standard," that would be fair. You wouldn't give a chemical engineering gig to a manager from McDonalds. But IMHO to say "you're perfectly qualified for this job, but you're a little too smart and we think you might get bored," is discriminatory. So what, they get bored? That's on them. Maybe it means they just look for more stuff to do, and go above and beyond the call of duty?  I've seen boredom translate that way before.


The other reason it's stupid is obvious. Or should be. This shit is dangerous. This is the reason we have so many aggressive jerkoff cops out there, who would rather use their muscle than their brains. Fuck conversation and facts-- beat the "suspects" down and ask questions later.


Maybe if they started hiring cops  that were further away from the "mentally handicapped" IQ range, we'd see less brutality, and stupid bullshit with the police.



I really think people need to protest this.




QFT. I'm actually quite tempted to share what you posted on facebook, to be quite honest.

You NAILED the reason we see such aggression and mindlessness in cops (exacerbated by that, at least per my intuition, more aggressive/power-hungry people may gravitate towards police work over other careers where they wouldn't get such opportunities to control and exert influence/force over others).
Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:

ClockCode said:
Lots of smart people drop out of college.  I think dropping out has more to do with discipline, money, or motivation than intelligence.

I'd say, "You'd have to be someone with average intelligence to get below 125."




:gooby:




I'm one of the 5 smartest in my graduating class, according to friends consensus and (more importantly/accurately) ACT scores, and I've dropped out of college 3 times. 2 of the other top 5 have also dropped out, with the one who went to Stanford having dropped out twice.

Life can get in the way of school and people can change the direction they're going in life such that college might not be the right thing to do (at all, or at any given point).

Quote:

ClockCode said:
Lots of smart people drop out of college.  I think dropping out has more to do with discipline, money, or motivation than intelligence.

I'd say, "You'd have to be someone with average intelligence to get below 125."




What do you mean in your quote? Richard Feynman has an IQ of 124, if that speaks at all to whatever point you're making or conjecturing.


--------------------
Back, bitches.
st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom
Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet?
st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam
Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
:crankey: IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! :awesomenod:
Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here :hug: :sun:


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InvisibleClockCode
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox]
    #18841682 - 09/14/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Lots of smart people have average IQs, Feynman was one of them.  I think that perspective and creativity have a lot to do with perceived intelligence.  I think Feynman had a unique way of looking at things that made him a great person.  He also displayed a lot of drive (like I mentioned earlier), he taught himself mathematics in high school and probably struggled a lot.  I think that an IQ test is a fair way to gauge rough intelligence, but there seems to be a lot more at play.

However my quote was a response to aiyo's comment about having to be a drop out to get below 125.

Do you have a map of the cat?


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Offlinest1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: ClockCode]
    #18841697 - 09/14/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ClockCode said:
Lots of smart people have average IQs, Feynman was one of them.  I think that perspective and creativity have a lot to do with perceived intelligence.  I think Feynman had a unique way of looking at things that made him a great person.  He also displayed a lot of drive (like I mentioned earlier), he taught himself mathematics in high school and probably struggled a lot.  I think that an IQ test is a fair way to gauge rough intelligence, but there seems to be a lot more at play.

However my quote was a response to aiyo's comment about having to be a drop out to get below 125.

Do you have a map of the cat?




Honestly, though I have slight reason to want people to consider otherwise, this is a lot to do with why I no longer believe in the concept of IQ in anything close to the canonical sense.

The best way I've come up with to explain the flaw with IQs as valuations of intelligence is this:

It is like trying to compute the volume of a box knowing only the length of two of its sides.

Better than nothing, to be certain, but still: you're bound to get oblong boxes coming through, and this can lead to issues when people don't consider this pitfall.

Also, in extreme cases such as savants (this may be the only case), IQ is completely worthless with respect to their extreme area of intelligence, even if their general intelligence is lower.

I, for example, have a disproportionately high verbal intelligence compared to my nonverbal and mathematical (I won't say how disproportionately in the interest of either good taste or pleading the fifth; I'll leave this to you all), so I'm "smarter" at some things than others, for certain.

I do wonder if your highest intelligence is what matters though, or whether it's people's general/average/typical-per-any-given-situation intellectual vigor that's most relevant.


--------------------
Back, bitches.
st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom
Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet?
st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam
Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
:crankey: IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! :awesomenod:
Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here :hug: :sun:


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox]
    #18841871 - 09/14/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Some guy had like an IQ of 80 but published a nuclear physics paper

I've said it before IQ doesn't mean much outside of like half of it because the other half is just recognizing english syllables and stuff for most generic test and I could teach you math and logic skills in like less then a week or so

It's just most of the cops I expect to get perfect scores, I don't know what kind of story this is from my perspective in New York it is very hard to drive your own squad car and you're better off having army experience as well as a degree.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Konyap]
    #18848106 - 09/16/13 08:36 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (04/19/23 08:01 PM)


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Offlinest1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #18849205 - 09/16/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Some guy had like an IQ of 80 but published a nuclear physics paper




Link? If so, he put in a lot of work in the course of his education. Good for him (or her). I don't think IQ has any correlation with ethics, but when it comes to STEM fields in particular (the reason we now live to 80 instead of 40... even in spite of our terrible national diet, which makes life current expectancy in U.S. even more impressive) I would declare is overwhelmingly due to material advances from those who would be at least above average on an IQ test.

I should note I think the notion of "common sense" is largely a joke, & is often used as an excuse for people to hold onto bigotry & ignorance (e.g. homophobia, creationism.) However, I admit cases exist (e.g. someone who needs the "not a step" warning on the fold-out tray near the top of ladders), but I think the notion of "I have common sense" is so overused as to be meaningless, bc, after all, almost nobody would say that they are lacking in this department.




QFT and because I want to have this stark counterexample to people's beliefs on IQ (the 80-IQ physicist...) on hand!

The second paragraph really hits home... I've always been super school-smart but all I ever heard growing up is how I have no common sense, need some common sense, etc. :feelsbadman: :sad:



To which I counter: common sense was actually coined as an INSULT. If someone has common sense, they have lowly, worthless sense. :douchewink: (Citation: Freakonomics)


--------------------
Back, bitches.
st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom
Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet?
st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam
Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
:crankey: IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! :awesomenod:
Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here :hug: :sun:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #18849632 - 09/16/13 03:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Some guy had like an IQ of 80 but published a nuclear physics paper




Link? If so, he put in a lot of work in the course of his education. Good for him (or her). I don't think IQ has any correlation with ethics, but when it comes to STEM fields in particular (the reason we now live to 80 instead of 40... even in spite of our terrible national diet, which makes life current expectancy in U.S. even more impressive) I would declare is overwhelmingly due to material advances from those who would be at least above average on an IQ test.

I should note I think the notion of "common sense" is largely a joke, & is often used as an excuse for people to hold onto bigotry & ignorance (e.g. homophobia, creationism.) However, I admit cases exist (e.g. someone who needs the "not a step" warning on the fold-out tray near the top of ladders), but I think the notion of "I have common sense" is so overused as to be meaningless, bc, after all, almost nobody would say that they are lacking in this department.




My IQ puts me in the official "genius" tier and in my opinion the whole concept is flawed and irrelevant to any aspect of life. No one can quantify intelligence, to do so only reflects the massive ego of an individual or group of individuals who believe themselves capable of saying what is or isn't intelligence and how it can be measured.

I'd prefer if IQ was changed to SQ, it would reflect the intelligence of the scale itself. "Smartness quotient" sounds as dumb as the idea is


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Offlinest1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18849641 - 09/16/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Some guy had like an IQ of 80 but published a nuclear physics paper




Link? If so, he put in a lot of work in the course of his education. Good for him (or her). I don't think IQ has any correlation with ethics, but when it comes to STEM fields in particular (the reason we now live to 80 instead of 40... even in spite of our terrible national diet, which makes life current expectancy in U.S. even more impressive) I would declare is overwhelmingly due to material advances from those who would be at least above average on an IQ test.

I should note I think the notion of "common sense" is largely a joke, & is often used as an excuse for people to hold onto bigotry & ignorance (e.g. homophobia, creationism.) However, I admit cases exist (e.g. someone who needs the "not a step" warning on the fold-out tray near the top of ladders), but I think the notion of "I have common sense" is so overused as to be meaningless, bc, after all, almost nobody would say that they are lacking in this department.




My IQ puts me in the official "genius" tier and in my opinion the whole concept is flawed and irrelevant to any aspect of life. No one can quantify intelligence, to do so only reflects the massive ego of an individual or group of individuals who believe themselves capable of saying what is or isn't intelligence and how it can be measured.

I'd prefer if IQ was changed to SQ, it would reflect the intelligence of the scale itself. "Smartness quotient" sounds as dumb as the idea is




Ditto, ditto, ditto, and your SQ idea is wryly and brilliantly clever hehe.

People often ask me my IQ if they're particularly struck by my tendency to be articulate in conversation, and I'll either say I don't believe in IQ or throw out a number like "40" lol.


I dare say you and I both in this thread have at least gingerly rubbed a finger on our egos, or perhaps it was simply relevant to the conversation. :shrug:


--------------------
Back, bitches.
st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom
Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet?
st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam
Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
:crankey: IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! :awesomenod:
Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here :hug: :sun:


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