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st1llnox
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Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) 2
#18835412 - 09/13/13 01:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Slightly old news (March of this year) but still amusing
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city.
The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court’s decision that the city did not discriminate against Robert Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.
“This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America against people of a certain class,” Jordan said today from his Waterford home. “I maintain you have no more control over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your gender or anything else.”
He said he does not plan to take any further legal action.
Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.
Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average.
Jordan alleged his rejection from the police force was discrimination. He sued the city, saying his civil rights were violated because he was denied equal protection under the law.
But the U.S. District Court found that New London had “shown a rational basis for the policy.” In a ruling dated Aug. 23, the 2nd Circuit agreed. The court said the policy might be unwise but was a rational way to reduce job turnover.
Jordan has worked as a prison guard since he took the test.
-------------------- Back, bitches. st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet? st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
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Edited by st1llnox (09/13/13 02:03 AM)
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox]
#18835430 - 09/13/13 01:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Jesus. You can't make this up. Or can you - what's the link?
regardless
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st1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: sonamdrukpa]
#18835438 - 09/13/13 02:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said: Jesus. You can't make this up. Or can you - what's the link?
regardless
I added it into the post... thanks for making me aware of this oversight.
-------------------- Back, bitches. st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet? st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
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Chuckfinely
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox] 1
#18835900 - 09/13/13 07:40 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Don't want any police smart enough to think for themselves, thats for sure 
this way they can just have a bunch of mindless idiotic drones to arrest kids with a joint and ruin their lives without a second thought
You know how police have to be tased before they can carry one? I think they should also have to go to jail for 3 months before theyre allowed to jail anyone
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LuSiD enthusiast
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Chuckfinely] 1
#18836119 - 09/13/13 09:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chuckfinely said: Don't want any police smart enough to think for themselves, thats for sure 
this way they can just have a bunch of mindless idiotic drones to arrest kids with a joint and ruin their lives without a second thought
You know how police have to be tased before they can carry one? I think they should also have to go to jail for 3 months before theyre allowed to jail anyone 
Qft
We don't like your smart types around these parts. Why don't you go out to california, with all your other hoighty, toighty, friends.
-------------------- I'm addicted to coke, weed, booze, ludes and speed. Not LSD, you can't get addicted to LSD, it was built by scientists. I ain't got no demons that gonna get woke. In erowid we trust. Just take your damn pills and don't ask any questions, you'll be fine.
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Repertoire89
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox] 1
#18836125 - 09/13/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can-i-bus
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89] 1
#18836137 - 09/13/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I remember seeing something like this on Michael Moore's show.
Honestly you gotta be pretty dull to score below a 27 on the Wonderlic....
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Futuresight
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89] 1
#18836147 - 09/13/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You might have heard this one before, but... FUCK THE POLICE.
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CidneyIndole
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Futuresight] 1
#18836766 - 09/13/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Courts should not stand behind this bullshit.
First, it is blatantly discriminatory. Now, if it were the other way around, and they were barring someone who scored slightly above the "mentally challenged" range, and the ruling was more like "we have judged that the candidate, as tested, does not or may not have the mental capacity to perform the job up to standard," that would be fair. You wouldn't give a chemical engineering gig to a manager from McDonalds. But IMHO to say "you're perfectly qualified for this job, but you're a little too smart and we think you might get bored," is discriminatory. So what, they get bored? That's on them. Maybe it means they just look for more stuff to do, and go above and beyond the call of duty? I've seen boredom translate that way before.
The other reason it's stupid is obvious. Or should be. This shit is dangerous. This is the reason we have so many aggressive jerkoff cops out there, who would rather use their muscle than their brains. Fuck conversation and facts-- beat the "suspects" down and ask questions later.
Maybe if they started hiring cops that were further away from the "mentally handicapped" IQ range, we'd see less brutality, and stupid bullshit with the police.
I really think people need to protest this.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
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Konyap

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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: CidneyIndole]
#18840747 - 09/14/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You'd have to be a college dropout to get below 125
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ClockCode
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Konyap]
#18840775 - 09/14/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lots of smart people drop out of college. I think dropping out has more to do with discipline, money, or motivation than intelligence.
I'd say, "You'd have to be someone with average intelligence to get below 125."
-------------------- Psilovibing
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: ClockCode]
#18841625 - 09/14/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ClockCode said: Lots of smart people drop out of college. I think dropping out has more to do with discipline, money, or motivation than intelligence.
I'd say, "You'd have to be someone with average intelligence to get below 125."
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st1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: ClockCode]
#18841646 - 09/14/13 04:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
CidneyIndole said: Courts should not stand behind this bullshit.
First, it is blatantly discriminatory. Now, if it were the other way around, and they were barring someone who scored slightly above the "mentally challenged" range, and the ruling was more like "we have judged that the candidate, as tested, does not or may not have the mental capacity to perform the job up to standard," that would be fair. You wouldn't give a chemical engineering gig to a manager from McDonalds. But IMHO to say "you're perfectly qualified for this job, but you're a little too smart and we think you might get bored," is discriminatory. So what, they get bored? That's on them. Maybe it means they just look for more stuff to do, and go above and beyond the call of duty? I've seen boredom translate that way before.
The other reason it's stupid is obvious. Or should be. This shit is dangerous. This is the reason we have so many aggressive jerkoff cops out there, who would rather use their muscle than their brains. Fuck conversation and facts-- beat the "suspects" down and ask questions later.
Maybe if they started hiring cops that were further away from the "mentally handicapped" IQ range, we'd see less brutality, and stupid bullshit with the police.
I really think people need to protest this.
QFT. I'm actually quite tempted to share what you posted on facebook, to be quite honest.
You NAILED the reason we see such aggression and mindlessness in cops (exacerbated by that, at least per my intuition, more aggressive/power-hungry people may gravitate towards police work over other careers where they wouldn't get such opportunities to control and exert influence/force over others).Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
ClockCode said: Lots of smart people drop out of college. I think dropping out has more to do with discipline, money, or motivation than intelligence.
I'd say, "You'd have to be someone with average intelligence to get below 125."

I'm one of the 5 smartest in my graduating class, according to friends consensus and (more importantly/accurately) ACT scores, and I've dropped out of college 3 times. 2 of the other top 5 have also dropped out, with the one who went to Stanford having dropped out twice.
Life can get in the way of school and people can change the direction they're going in life such that college might not be the right thing to do (at all, or at any given point).
Quote:
ClockCode said: Lots of smart people drop out of college. I think dropping out has more to do with discipline, money, or motivation than intelligence.
I'd say, "You'd have to be someone with average intelligence to get below 125."
What do you mean in your quote? Richard Feynman has an IQ of 124, if that speaks at all to whatever point you're making or conjecturing.
-------------------- Back, bitches. st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet? st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
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ClockCode
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox]
#18841682 - 09/14/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lots of smart people have average IQs, Feynman was one of them. I think that perspective and creativity have a lot to do with perceived intelligence. I think Feynman had a unique way of looking at things that made him a great person. He also displayed a lot of drive (like I mentioned earlier), he taught himself mathematics in high school and probably struggled a lot. I think that an IQ test is a fair way to gauge rough intelligence, but there seems to be a lot more at play.
However my quote was a response to aiyo's comment about having to be a drop out to get below 125.
Do you have a map of the cat?
-------------------- Psilovibing
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st1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: ClockCode]
#18841697 - 09/14/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ClockCode said: Lots of smart people have average IQs, Feynman was one of them. I think that perspective and creativity have a lot to do with perceived intelligence. I think Feynman had a unique way of looking at things that made him a great person. He also displayed a lot of drive (like I mentioned earlier), he taught himself mathematics in high school and probably struggled a lot. I think that an IQ test is a fair way to gauge rough intelligence, but there seems to be a lot more at play.
However my quote was a response to aiyo's comment about having to be a drop out to get below 125.
Do you have a map of the cat?
Honestly, though I have slight reason to want people to consider otherwise, this is a lot to do with why I no longer believe in the concept of IQ in anything close to the canonical sense.
The best way I've come up with to explain the flaw with IQs as valuations of intelligence is this:
It is like trying to compute the volume of a box knowing only the length of two of its sides.
Better than nothing, to be certain, but still: you're bound to get oblong boxes coming through, and this can lead to issues when people don't consider this pitfall.
Also, in extreme cases such as savants (this may be the only case), IQ is completely worthless with respect to their extreme area of intelligence, even if their general intelligence is lower.
I, for example, have a disproportionately high verbal intelligence compared to my nonverbal and mathematical (I won't say how disproportionately in the interest of either good taste or pleading the fifth; I'll leave this to you all), so I'm "smarter" at some things than others, for certain.
I do wonder if your highest intelligence is what matters though, or whether it's people's general/average/typical-per-any-given-situation intellectual vigor that's most relevant.
-------------------- Back, bitches. st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet? st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
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Konyap

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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox]
#18841871 - 09/14/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Some guy had like an IQ of 80 but published a nuclear physics paper
I've said it before IQ doesn't mean much outside of like half of it because the other half is just recognizing english syllables and stuff for most generic test and I could teach you math and logic skills in like less then a week or so
It's just most of the cops I expect to get perfect scores, I don't know what kind of story this is from my perspective in New York it is very hard to drive your own squad car and you're better off having army experience as well as a degree.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Konyap]
#18848106 - 09/16/13 08:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (04/19/23 08:01 PM)
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st1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18849205 - 09/16/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Some guy had like an IQ of 80 but published a nuclear physics paper
Link? If so, he put in a lot of work in the course of his education. Good for him (or her). I don't think IQ has any correlation with ethics, but when it comes to STEM fields in particular (the reason we now live to 80 instead of 40... even in spite of our terrible national diet, which makes life current expectancy in U.S. even more impressive) I would declare is overwhelmingly due to material advances from those who would be at least above average on an IQ test.
I should note I think the notion of "common sense" is largely a joke, & is often used as an excuse for people to hold onto bigotry & ignorance (e.g. homophobia, creationism.) However, I admit cases exist (e.g. someone who needs the "not a step" warning on the fold-out tray near the top of ladders), but I think the notion of "I have common sense" is so overused as to be meaningless, bc, after all, almost nobody would say that they are lacking in this department.
QFT and because I want to have this stark counterexample to people's beliefs on IQ (the 80-IQ physicist...) on hand!
The second paragraph really hits home... I've always been super school-smart but all I ever heard growing up is how I have no common sense, need some common sense, etc. 
To which I counter: common sense was actually coined as an INSULT. If someone has common sense, they have lowly, worthless sense. (Citation: Freakonomics)
-------------------- Back, bitches. st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet? st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here
  
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Repertoire89
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18849632 - 09/16/13 03:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Some guy had like an IQ of 80 but published a nuclear physics paper
Link? If so, he put in a lot of work in the course of his education. Good for him (or her). I don't think IQ has any correlation with ethics, but when it comes to STEM fields in particular (the reason we now live to 80 instead of 40... even in spite of our terrible national diet, which makes life current expectancy in U.S. even more impressive) I would declare is overwhelmingly due to material advances from those who would be at least above average on an IQ test.
I should note I think the notion of "common sense" is largely a joke, & is often used as an excuse for people to hold onto bigotry & ignorance (e.g. homophobia, creationism.) However, I admit cases exist (e.g. someone who needs the "not a step" warning on the fold-out tray near the top of ladders), but I think the notion of "I have common sense" is so overused as to be meaningless, bc, after all, almost nobody would say that they are lacking in this department.
My IQ puts me in the official "genius" tier and in my opinion the whole concept is flawed and irrelevant to any aspect of life. No one can quantify intelligence, to do so only reflects the massive ego of an individual or group of individuals who believe themselves capable of saying what is or isn't intelligence and how it can be measured.
I'd prefer if IQ was changed to SQ, it would reflect the intelligence of the scale itself. "Smartness quotient" sounds as dumb as the idea is
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st1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18849641 - 09/16/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Some guy had like an IQ of 80 but published a nuclear physics paper
Link? If so, he put in a lot of work in the course of his education. Good for him (or her). I don't think IQ has any correlation with ethics, but when it comes to STEM fields in particular (the reason we now live to 80 instead of 40... even in spite of our terrible national diet, which makes life current expectancy in U.S. even more impressive) I would declare is overwhelmingly due to material advances from those who would be at least above average on an IQ test.
I should note I think the notion of "common sense" is largely a joke, & is often used as an excuse for people to hold onto bigotry & ignorance (e.g. homophobia, creationism.) However, I admit cases exist (e.g. someone who needs the "not a step" warning on the fold-out tray near the top of ladders), but I think the notion of "I have common sense" is so overused as to be meaningless, bc, after all, almost nobody would say that they are lacking in this department.
My IQ puts me in the official "genius" tier and in my opinion the whole concept is flawed and irrelevant to any aspect of life. No one can quantify intelligence, to do so only reflects the massive ego of an individual or group of individuals who believe themselves capable of saying what is or isn't intelligence and how it can be measured.
I'd prefer if IQ was changed to SQ, it would reflect the intelligence of the scale itself. "Smartness quotient" sounds as dumb as the idea is
Ditto, ditto, ditto, and your SQ idea is wryly and brilliantly clever hehe.
People often ask me my IQ if they're particularly struck by my tendency to be articulate in conversation, and I'll either say I don't believe in IQ or throw out a number like "40" lol.
I dare say you and I both in this thread have at least gingerly rubbed a finger on our egos, or perhaps it was simply relevant to the conversation.
-------------------- Back, bitches. st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet? st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here
  
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Repertoire89
Cat



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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: st1llnox]
#18849680 - 09/16/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
st1llnox said:
I dare say you and I both in this thread have at least gingerly rubbed a finger on our egos, or perhaps it was simply relevant to the conversation. 
Well I have a healthy amount of pride in my accomplishments and education, not enough ego to think I'm anything more though. The idea that I was born with a more efficient brain (higher IQ) demeans my accomplishments which come from years of hard work and study.
I've never heard of a firm scientific basis behind the SQ, and find it demeaning to everyone across the board.
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Konyap

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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18850003 - 09/16/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wizardry!
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st1llnox
dx'd PTSD/ADHD--please don't ask



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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18850220 - 09/16/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
st1llnox said:
I dare say you and I both in this thread have at least gingerly rubbed a finger on our egos, or perhaps it was simply relevant to the conversation. 
Well I have a healthy amount of pride in my accomplishments and education, not enough ego to think I'm anything more though. The idea that I was born with a more efficient brain (higher IQ) demeans my accomplishments which come from years of hard work and study.
I've never heard of a firm scientific basis behind the SQ, and find it demeaning to everyone across the board.
Exactly. It is worse than demeaning: it's dehumanizing to attempt to valuate people's intelligence, especially as people readily equate intelligence largely with worth.
I don't feel that I personally have had my accomplishments undermined by that I happen to be intelligent, but it's certainly much more impressive when someone who has less of such an advantage manages an equivalent feat.
Also relevant is simply that I've, for most chapters of my life, been super lazy and simply used my intelligence as a way to work less. I read something VERY important in the Mensa bulletin a few years ago emphasizing that gifted education needs to emphasize students HARD WORK and NOT their innate brilliance, which seems to easily turn into a go-ahead to just get by on your smarts and then, whenever we progress to such an extent in our educations that actually putting in work becomes necessary, we're unprepared and set back.
Accept that your intelligence is part of your accomplishments though, and perhaps you'd feel better about that seeing how intelligence and worth-of-accomplishment seem to relate for me.
Ability is aptitude times effort, so we've simply been given a much-higher limit on what we can accomplish and it is our duty to realize this as much as possible, especially as it concerns contributing to society or the natural philosophies/sciences, for instances.
-------------------- Back, bitches. st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet? st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here
  
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EntheogenicPeace
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18850252 - 09/16/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (04/19/23 08:02 PM)
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st1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18850280 - 09/16/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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EntheogenicPeace said:
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My IQ puts me in the official "genius" tier and in my opinion the whole concept is flawed and irrelevant to any aspect of life.
Assuming the first part true (always need to be skeptical of Internet claims, of course), I think it would be correct to that if someone were to give a challenging task (e.g. genetically engineer a non-pathogen, xylem-living bacterium to express the Bt toxins to kill the larval stage of stem-boring moths and beetles that do damage to plants), then if all parties involved were motivated to do so over the course of x days/weeks/months/years, I would put my money on say 120 over 80. I wouldn't put my money that the 120 spends their prize money more ethically than the 80; i think this would be a coin flip (assuming they both come from the same society more or less.)
P.S. Of course, it should go w/o saying that someone with a lot of intelligence might be unmotivated & not have "success" in life generally, while someone with less might be motivated & obtain it.
Motivation, I contend, has just as little correlation with intelligence as you assert morality and ethical conduct do.
I think it's prudent to be skeptical of ALL self-proclamations of high and outlier SQ's. While I'm in at least the top half of one percent (cue the valid and necessary skepticism), I'm--according to SQ's compared at face value--the dumbest person who's SQ I've heard of out of the last half dozen or so I met, who have said their IQs are as high as 180-something. 
It's a refreshing experience to finally be the dumbest one of the group though lol.
-------------------- Back, bitches. st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet? st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here
  
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Repertoire89
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Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18850570 - 09/16/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
My IQ puts me in the official "genius" tier and in my opinion the whole concept is flawed and irrelevant to any aspect of life.
Assuming the first part true (always need to be skeptical of Internet claims, of course), I think it would be correct to that if someone were to give a challenging task (e.g. genetically engineer a non-pathogen, xylem-living bacterium to express the Bt toxins to kill the larval stage of stem-boring moths and beetles that do damage to plants), then if all parties involved were motivated to do so over the course of x days/weeks/months/years, I would put my money on say 120 over 80. I wouldn't put my money that the 120 spends their prize money more ethically than the 80; i think this would be a coin flip (assuming they both come from the same society more or less.)
P.S. Of course, it should go w/o saying that someone with a lot of intelligence might be unmotivated & not have "success" in life generally, while someone with less might be motivated & obtain it.
Yeah any unsubstantiated claim over the internet is pretty worthless, the only point in mentioning my IQ was to cover the point that I could be upset with the system due to having a low score.
I've not seen any reliable scientific backing to the IQ tests though, in my eyes they're as reliable as polygraph test or a lobotomy
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Chuckfinely
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18857102 - 09/18/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
My IQ puts me in the official "genius" tier and in my opinion the whole concept is flawed and irrelevant to any aspect of life.
Assuming the first part true (always need to be skeptical of Internet claims, of course), I think it would be correct to that if someone were to give a challenging task (e.g. genetically engineer a non-pathogen, xylem-living bacterium to express the Bt toxins to kill the larval stage of stem-boring moths and beetles that do damage to plants), then if all parties involved were motivated to do so over the course of x days/weeks/months/years, I would put my money on say 120 over 80. I wouldn't put my money that the 120 spends their prize money more ethically than the 80; i think this would be a coin flip (assuming they both come from the same society more or less.)
P.S. Of course, it should go w/o saying that someone with a lot of intelligence might be unmotivated & not have "success" in life generally, while someone with less might be motivated & obtain it.
I think motivation has something to do with how quickly you absorb and how well you retain information.
Example: I read this forum like it was the bible for 3 months before i ever tried to grow a mushroom. I was easily able to learn everything because i was super interested in the subject. I know even on my death bed I'll be able to give detailed instructions on how to grow mush from inoculation to fruiting in a tub
Now if you were to show me a psychology forum and told me that somehow after 3 months of reading i would be able to produce the same amount of income for the same amount of effort, i highly doubt i would be able to absorb the information to the required extent. Or be able to explain it even a week later.
I think motivation plays a big roll in how "smart" you are. If you dislike math you probably aren't going to end up being a mathlete
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EntheogenicPeace
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18857180 - 09/18/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (04/19/23 08:03 PM)
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Repertoire89
Cat



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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18857397 - 09/18/13 10:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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EntheogenicPeace said:
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I've not seen any reliable scientific backing to the IQ tests though...
To test this, one way would be to give subjects a task that takes some amt of time and learning before applying it to solve the problem, one which no person involved has any meaningful background in. For me, this would be something like software programming. Of course, the reward for success much be sufficient to motivate the participants... presumably that would be money.
That would still only cover an ability in one or a few areas, and it would suggest that one is more intelligent for having more aptitude in tasks. Who is to say what intelligence is? If you're in a war pitting your resources against someone else, perhaps the living are more intelligent for their aptitude with a weapon, or their strategies, their tactics, perhaps not. I think there is more to intelligence than who is the victor.
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EntheogenicPeace
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18857685 - 09/18/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (04/19/23 08:04 PM)
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Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18857739 - 09/18/13 12:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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EntheogenicPeace said:
* i once saw a TED Talks with a fairly young boy from a rural village in Africa who made a windmill from scrap components to bring the first occurrence of electricity to his village. I would think that he could compete quite well, to say the least, with Westerners in his age cohort on learning & problem solving tasks.
That doesn't make him intelligent let alone does it suggest how intelligent. He could be a savant, or lack whatever aptitude he has there in other fields which is IME usually the case. Beethoven is both an example of genius and what I would consider retardation, how do you measure someone who is exceedingly capable in one area and fails miserably in others? Everyone is a balance of weaknesses and strengths, and those fluctuate with time. There is no person, group of individuals, or machine which could standardize intelligence without overlooking it entirely
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st1llnox
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18858330 - 09/18/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
* i once saw a TED Talks with a fairly young boy from a rural village in Africa who made a windmill from scrap components to bring the first occurrence of electricity to his village. I would think that he could compete quite well, to say the least, with Westerners in his age cohort on learning & problem solving tasks.
That doesn't make him intelligent let alone does it suggest how intelligent. He could be a savant, or lack whatever aptitude he has there in other fields which is IME usually the case. Beethoven is both an example of genius and what I would consider retardation, how do you measure someone who is exceedingly capable in one area and fails miserably in others? Everyone is a balance of weaknesses and strengths, and those fluctuate with time. There is no person, group of individuals, or machine which could standardize intelligence without overlooking it entirely
QFT.
Interest and motivation too, assuredly, is the most important factor for someone's "smartness".
I used to get around the 40th percentile in standardized math tests until I had a super sarcastic math teacher that encouraged me to look for and discover shortcuts beyond what she was teaching, and I fell in love with math. Got at the 99%th percentile on every other standardized math test I've taken ever since, but before that all evidence indicated that I was simply below-average, by nature (if we're accepting much of what is thought about SQ), in this area and would remain that way.
Not to mention the mechanics of testing...
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EntheogenicPeace
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18867470 - 09/20/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (04/19/23 08:05 PM)
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Repertoire89
Cat



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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18868616 - 09/20/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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EntheogenicPeace said:
Based on the definition of the word, it does. If no criteria for intelligence existed, then it may as well be eliminated from the English language. Also, the kid is not a savant.
...If to you the term is subjective to one's own personal opinion, then so be it; such subjectively cannot be argued (e.g. "I think blue is the prettiest color.")
Should we eliminate dark matter from the dictionary because it cannot be understood in its totality?
Beethoven was a miserable social tool and lost his virginity to a prostitute when he was like 35. Whatever he could do with music I don't hold above many other musicians who could create great music without sacrificing every other aspect of their consciousness. I've studied his music and he's certainly a great musician but no better than a thousand others.
If one defined intelligence by proficiency in a single subject it would be akin to education, if we define it by an ability to manage between subjects then it overlooks an abundance of over achievers who do not posses natural aptitude but use economy of motion. Intelligence is neither skill nor natural aptitude, its a balance of various traits, something too complicated to be standardized.
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EntheogenicPeace
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: Repertoire89]
#18869411 - 09/20/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (04/19/23 08:06 PM)
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Repertoire89
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Re: Court OKs Barring Smart People From Becoming Cops (Really) [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#18870141 - 09/20/13 11:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well we're in a similar place in our definition of the idea of an intelligent person, there are few people I would outright label as intelligent but I do think that such a person exists
The issue I personally have is with standardizing the concept of intelligence
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