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Shahal Rainrix
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Registered: 09/07/13
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Substrate Question
#18833275 - 09/12/13 04:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm doing research into making better substrate. My research suggests a few things to be better for shrooms. So I wanted to know if anyone has heard of these in substrate.
Dehydrated Fruit
Seeds (Like apple or watermelon)
Cheese
Chocolate
Nuts
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ba87
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I'm an inexperienced grower, but I've read quite a bit of material.
I have never come across any mention of those being used in a substrate.
If you have material supporting their use, why not do a miniaturized version and see how it turns out? If you do, please post the results. I'm intrigued.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: ba87]
#18833313 - 09/12/13 04:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ba87 said: I'm an inexperienced grower, but I've read quite a bit of material.
I have never come across any mention of those being used in a substrate.
If you have material supporting their use, why not do a miniaturized version and see how it turns out? If you do, please post the results. I'm intrigued.
Thank you, and I will one day. It'll be called "The Goblin Kings Kake" and I still haven't started to grow. I'm still saving and when you can't find a job and have mental problems, it takes a while.
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Sagescruffy
CH



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Dude I don't think you have mental problems, but I do think that those materials would fail unless you were in a completely sterile environment.
-------------------- Love.  
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kinkaku
I AM THE LAW!!!!




Registered: 04/02/13
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someone here posted a substrate patent in the gourmet section one of the ingredients was milk it must have worked for it to be patented.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: kinkaku]
#18833356 - 09/12/13 05:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
kinkaku said: someone here posted a substrate patent in the gourmet section one of the ingredients was milk it must have worked for it to be patented.
Thanks for mentioning that, it did help. Milk isn't on my list. But it would be if its nutrients were higher.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
Sagescruffy said: Dude I don't think you have mental problems, but I do think that those materials would fail unless you were in a completely sterile environment.
Wouldn't a pressure cooker take care of that as well as a sterile closet?
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SpitballJedi
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-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Sagescruffy
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The pressure cooker could sterilize everything, but the moment any seals for your substrates are opened or broken, contams would get in and easily enjoy a nice sterilized substrate. So the environment for sterilized substrates needs to be sterile itself. A "sterile closet" would be hard to accomplish. A sterile room would have to be sealed and one would have to devise a way to enter the room without bringing in contaminates. I don't work in a sterile room with sterile substrates, so I'm only going off what I understand about the use of sterile substrates.
-------------------- Love.  
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
Sagescruffy said: The pressure cooker could sterilize everything, but the moment any seals for your substrates are opened or broken, contams would get in and easily enjoy a nice sterilized substrate. So the environment for sterilized substrates needs to be sterile itself. A "sterile closet" would be hard to accomplish. A sterile room would have to be sealed and one would have to devise a way to enter the room without bringing in contaminates. I don't work in a sterile room with sterile substrates, so I'm only going off what I understand about the use of sterile substrates.
Easy enough. It's a walk in with a tile floor. I'm not going to keep other things in there and I could make a decontamination chamber for myself as well as air borns.
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Sagescruffy
CH



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All right man, I was primarily just trying to illustrate how much effort it would be to work with sterile substrates. I'm only assuming the things you listed in your first post would either need to be sterilized and/or be in a sterile area. Good luck with your endeavors homie!
-------------------- Love.  
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
Sagescruffy said: All right man, I was primarily just trying to illustrate how much effort it would be to work with sterile substrates. I'm only assuming the things you listed in your first post would either need to be sterilized and/or be in a sterile area. Good luck with your endeavors homie!
understood, have a nice day.
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kinkaku
I AM THE LAW!!!!




Registered: 04/02/13
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said:
Quote:
kinkaku said: someone here posted a substrate patent in the gourmet section one of the ingredients was milk it must have worked for it to be patented.
Thanks for mentioning that, it did help. Milk isn't on my list. But it would be if its nutrients were higher.
i should add that there was a bunch of other ingredients to. I'll find you a link maybe you will find something that tickles your fancy.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: kinkaku]
#18836076 - 09/13/13 09:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
kinkaku said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said:
Quote:
kinkaku said: someone here posted a substrate patent in the gourmet section one of the ingredients was milk it must have worked for it to be patented.
Thanks for mentioning that, it did help. Milk isn't on my list. But it would be if its nutrients were higher.
i should add that there was a bunch of other ingredients to. I'll find you a link maybe you will find something that tickles your fancy.
I'd like that, thank you
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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OH hey, shalal, I remember when you started a flame fest with a very similar question here.
None of those ingredients will do any good at all.
And here is what everyone said before, which still applies to substrate now even though you are hoping it doesn't:
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: What I need to know is what shrooms feed on the most so I can make a more powerful substrate. Like if shrooms need carbs, how badly? A list of most needed to least needed would be a big help.
Also, is it possible to feed them with powered and liquid supplements? If that is possible with powers and misters? If I could add those to the substrate when mixing as well as later, topically, could I get a larger or longer lasting flush?
If people would test this for me,I'd be grateful.
NOTE: I am not looking for other peoples substrate blends. I want to make my own with the richest ingredients in order to increase the number of shrooms. This way I can research nutritional values and serving sizes to make my own blend.
The most nutritious substrate is BRF + verm. But you have to keep this sterile until it is fully colonized.
As far as standard (pasteurized) bulk, high nutritional value of the substrate is not going to help much of anything really. Pasteurized bulk substrate is low-nutrient for many reasons.
Highly nutritious substrate will just make everything more likely to contam as well as slowing your colonization and fruiting times significantly.
My 66qt monotubs with a simple substrate (coir/verm) and good genetics will give me 8+ ounce (dry) first flushes any day.
If you are not working with agar (which I don't believe you to be) then the best thing to do for big yields is to get your fruiting conditions dialed in perfectly.
My signature has many links to things I have written that may help you out.
People are just trying to tell you that you should focus less on the substrate.
Now please, calm down before the moderators notice you.
We are just trying to steer you in the right direction. We are a collective of hobby cultivators, not professional mycologists. If you have info to share, please do because it is the same thing we are doing for you 
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: OH hey, shalal, I remember when you started a flame fest with a very similar question here.
None of those ingredients will do any good at all.
And here is what everyone said before, which still applies to substrate now even though you are hoping it doesn't:
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: What I need to know is what shrooms feed on the most so I can make a more powerful substrate. Like if shrooms need carbs, how badly? A list of most needed to least needed would be a big help.
Also, is it possible to feed them with powered and liquid supplements? If that is possible with powers and misters? If I could add those to the substrate when mixing as well as later, topically, could I get a larger or longer lasting flush?
If people would test this for me,I'd be grateful.
NOTE: I am not looking for other peoples substrate blends. I want to make my own with the richest ingredients in order to increase the number of shrooms. This way I can research nutritional values and serving sizes to make my own blend.
The most nutritious substrate is BRF + verm. But you have to keep this sterile until it is fully colonized.
As far as standard (pasteurized) bulk, high nutritional value of the substrate is not going to help much of anything really. Pasteurized bulk substrate is low-nutrient for many reasons.
Highly nutritious substrate will just make everything more likely to contam as well as slowing your colonization and fruiting times significantly.
My 66qt monotubs with a simple substrate (coir/verm) and good genetics will give me 8+ ounce (dry) first flushes any day.
If you are not working with agar (which I don't believe you to be) then the best thing to do for big yields is to get your fruiting conditions dialed in perfectly.
My signature has many links to things I have written that may help you out.
People are just trying to tell you that you should focus less on the substrate.
Now please, calm down before the moderators notice you.
We are just trying to steer you in the right direction. We are a collective of hobby cultivators, not professional mycologists. If you have info to share, please do because it is the same thing we are doing for you 
How many people did I flame in this thread?
And it'll work just fine. I don't even have to use food. There are other things out there.
This is what shrooms like in brf, Carbohydrates, Riboflavin, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sodium, Zinc, Copper, Selenium. So what dosen't make sense about increasing these nutrients?
Fungi feed by absorbing nutrients. But they don't have stomachs, so they have to break it all down into simple particles which are them absorb. I could probably use capsule supplements and virm and it'd work out.
Note: that virm adds no nutrients, it helps spread the fungi and stores existing nutrients. Just because I didn't talk about it above.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Have you grown a single mushroom yet?
Thanks for the little lesson on mycelium feeding, that was good for a laugh.
Verm also does add nutrients, small amounts.
The problem is, you are just way off base with the foundation of your arguments.
You will be getting zero useful answers here, no one is going to go in circles with you about mushrooms and "what they like" in your words.
No one is trying to add milk or dried fruit to their substrates.
We tried explaining it to you before. You just got pissed and FooMan, a moderator, had to step in. You promptly left that thread behind instead of admitting your attitude sucked.
We're busy growing tons of mushrooms and helping others do the same. Go read a textbook
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Shahal Rainrix
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I guess we'll see then.
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Stromrider
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I don't know how many of us have tried to explain this to him. Must have a thick skull or something
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Stromrider
This must be the place


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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: I guess we'll see then.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
psillyshroomer said:
I don't know how many of us have tried to explain this to him. Must have a thick skull or something 
I don't get it. Here we are, offering advice from the fucking forefront of modern cubensis cultivation.
And this guy is reading to us snippets from google searches and telling us we don't know what we're talking about
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 17 days, 15 hours
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--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: This is what shrooms like in brf, Carbohydrates, Riboflavin, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sodium, Zinc, Copper, Selenium. So what dosen't make sense about increasing these nutrients?
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Highly nutritious substrate will just make everything more likely to contam as well as slowing your colonization and fruiting times significantly.
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said:I could probably use capsule supplements and virm and it'd work out.
You mean like crushing up some Flintstones Chewables?
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: Note: that virm adds no nutrients
The way fungi use materials as nutrients is different than than the way plants and animals do. You need to research the value of vermiculite to fungi and stop talking shit
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
Edited by SpitballJedi (09/13/13 12:19 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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I smell the next anne h
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Stromrider
This must be the place


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At least Anne has actually grown a mushroom before
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 17 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
psillyshroomer said: a mushroom
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Stromrider
This must be the place


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Re: Substrate Question [Re: PussyFart]
#18836772 - 09/13/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Quote:
psillyshroomer said: a mushroom

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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
psillyshroomer said: A mushroom

Don't say his name too many times, he'll come by and start word-barfing all over this thread.
edit: beat me to it
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Stromrider
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Hey without Anne who would we rip on for kicks? Oh wait we got shah now nevermind
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Stromrider
This must be the place


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That was mean I am sorry
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



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That's ok. I was thinking it.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Quality responses, to be sure
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Shahal Rainrix
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Well I am sorry I don't have a masters in mycology. Any I'm sorry that I rather try something new before giving up. Nothing ventured is nothing gained.
And I have grown mushrooms before, but not shrooms.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Then what is with the attitude man?
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: I don't get it. Here we are, offering advice from the fucking forefront of modern cubensis cultivation.
And this guy is reading to us snippets from google searches and telling us we don't know what we're talking about 
No one here has said they have a masters in mycology, I actually said that we are a collective of hobby cultivators. You have been the condescending one in your threads.
We are trying to help. You seem to have something to say back every time.
We don't want to argue with you. We are speaking from experience, not from a google search.
If you want to get all crazy with your substrate, go for it.
You've gotten our opinion though.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: Any I'm sorry that I rather try something new before giving up.
If you want to try something new, try following the advice of others
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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budkatz

Registered: 04/12/09
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The one thing these folks offer to you is experience, and they tried to share the benefits of their work with you. Seems like a good place to start. Take a look at some of Frank's and other folks grows. Maybe that could be your baseline, if you can get to that level of success. Uh, 8 oz dry from a $3 brick of coir and couple quarts of verm? Don't think it gets much better, try it.
Then maybe you move up from there.
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Stromrider
This must be the place


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Re: Substrate Question [Re: budkatz]
#18836862 - 09/13/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
budkatz said: The one thing these folks offer to you is experience, and they tried to share the benefits of their work with you. Seems like a good place to start. Take a look at some of Frank's and other folks grows. Maybe that could be your baseline, if you can get to that level of success. Uh, 8 oz dry from a $3 brick of coir and couple quarts of verm? Don't think it gets much better, try it.
Then maybe you move up from there.
All men struggle with pride and arrogance. Especially at a younger age. Sometimes pride and arrogance get the best of people and they refuse to humble themselves enough to take advice from wiser more experienced people. It can really blind you sometimes
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Shahal Rainrix
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But hasn't most of the advice been stick with what works? Or to not bother with it at all? That's how I see it. It doesn't matter if it wasn't intended, because that is how I am taking it.
Experience is fine, but I haven't heard anyone's experience with what I'm doing. So if you are offering experience in growing and not creating new substrate. I have looked into what makes the substrate you all use so great and compared it to the nutrients that is in the fungi already. It all makes sense to me. But I admit that I am bad at explaining.
So, everyone, I am sorry. You don't have to forgive me. My meds make me unbalanced. I am on 9 uppers and 4 downers at all times, so I am unbalanced. Some days are better then others for me. If I get set off, I go.
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Skinty
TOP SECRET


Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 1,150
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I'm ditching everything I have learnt on here. I've thrown away all my equip, cakes, mono etc. I've already un-bookmarked Franks teks.
I wait in in eager anticipation of shal's revolutionary cheese-tek
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: But hasn't most of the advice been stick with what works? Or to not bother with it at all? That's how I see it. It doesn't matter if it wasn't intended, because that is how I am taking it.
Experience is fine, but I haven't heard anyone's experience with what I'm doing. So if you are offering experience in growing and not creating new substrate. I have looked into what makes the substrate you all use so great and compared it to the nutrients that is in the fungi already. It all makes sense to me. But I admit that I am bad at explaining.
So, everyone, I am sorry. You don't have to forgive me. My meds make me unbalanced. I am on 9 uppers and 4 downers at all times, so I am unbalanced. Some days are better then others for me. If I get set off, I go.
It's ok man.
We haven't told you our experience with what you are doing because we have no experience with using ingredients such as the ones you listed here.
Having never grown a cube before, you should probably get your feet wet before you get all crazy.
Not only that but if you have successfully grown gourmets or medicinals, you should be able to grasp that simpler is better sometimes.
Extremely nutritious substrate is not used very often because it causes more problems than solutions.
It does not directly relate to your yield in the way you think.
We're not discouraging you from trying, we are giving you an honest opinion that we don't think it will work. You can have great success without trying to reinvent the wheel on your first magic mushroom grow.
We don't want you to grow a bunch of mold
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Stromrider
This must be the place


Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 32 minutes, 43 seconds
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: But hasn't most of the advice been stick with what works? Or to not bother with it at all? That's how I see it. It doesn't matter if it wasn't intended, because that is how I am taking it.
Experience is fine, but I haven't heard anyone's experience with what I'm doing. So if you are offering experience in growing and not creating new substrate. I have looked into what makes the substrate you all use so great and compared it to the nutrients that is in the fungi already. It all makes sense to me. But I admit that I am bad at explaining.
So, everyone, I am sorry. You don't have to forgive me. My meds make me unbalanced. I am on 9 uppers and 4 downers at all times, so I am unbalanced. Some days are better then others for me. If I get set off, I go.
Why would you not want to stick with what works? I don't get it. I mean we're not talking about building rockets here! We're just growing some fungus! K.I.S.S.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
psillyshroomer said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: But hasn't most of the advice been stick with what works? Or to not bother with it at all? That's how I see it. It doesn't matter if it wasn't intended, because that is how I am taking it.
Experience is fine, but I haven't heard anyone's experience with what I'm doing. So if you are offering experience in growing and not creating new substrate. I have looked into what makes the substrate you all use so great and compared it to the nutrients that is in the fungi already. It all makes sense to me. But I admit that I am bad at explaining.
So, everyone, I am sorry. You don't have to forgive me. My meds make me unbalanced. I am on 9 uppers and 4 downers at all times, so I am unbalanced. Some days are better then others for me. If I get set off, I go.
Why would you not want to stick with what works? I don't get it. I mean we're not talking about building rockets here! We're just growing some fungus! K.I.S.S.
I kept typing this up and retyping it, I hope this answer is good enough.
I don't like the box and I've never been in it. I'm weird and strange and I always look for a new way to do things. Like kandy, the bracelets ravers wear. I made a bracelet with a fully poseable scorpion on it. When I give one of these to someone, they go crazy and play with it all night and show it off. I can even make a cuff fuzz by rapping each bead with pipe cleaner. No has ever said they seen it before. So that is how I think.
Regardless if its broken or not. You can still get creative. Isn't that why some of you take shrooms? To go beyond, to open your mind, to get out of the box?
Edited by Shahal Rainrix (09/13/13 01:30 PM)
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Maybe you missed my reply. Here it is:
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: It's ok man.
We haven't told you our experience with what you are doing because we have no experience with using ingredients such as the ones you listed here.
Having never grown a cube before, you should probably get your feet wet before you get all crazy.
Not only that but if you have successfully grown gourmets or medicinals, you should be able to grasp that simpler is better sometimes.
Extremely nutritious substrate is not used very often because it causes more problems than solutions.
It does not directly relate to your yield in the way you think.
We're not discouraging you from trying, we are giving you an honest opinion that we don't think it will work. You can have great success without trying to reinvent the wheel on your first magic mushroom grow.
We don't want you to grow a bunch of mold 
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Shahal Rainrix
Stranger
Registered: 09/07/13
Posts: 49
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Maybe you missed my reply. Here it is:
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: It's ok man.
We haven't told you our experience with what you are doing because we have no experience with using ingredients such as the ones you listed here.
Having never grown a cube before, you should probably get your feet wet before you get all crazy.
Not only that but if you have successfully grown gourmets or medicinals, you should be able to grasp that simpler is better sometimes.
Extremely nutritious substrate is not used very often because it causes more problems than solutions.
It does not directly relate to your yield in the way you think.
We're not discouraging you from trying, we are giving you an honest opinion that we don't think it will work. You can have great success without trying to reinvent the wheel on your first magic mushroom grow.
We don't want you to grow a bunch of mold 
But I never said that I was going to grow with my substrate right away. Some of you keep saying that I'm trying to reinvent the wheel when I'm only drawing up plans for a tire. I do in fact plan to grow with coco coir or brf.
I looked around at all substrate and their nutrients. Then I compared them to whats in mushrooms already, you are what you eat. So is it really so crazy to think that the reason shrooms like coco coir is because of phosphorous and potassium when brf hardly has either but is higher in carbohydrates, fat and other thing?
Fungi feed on nutrients. It should make sense that more nutrients means more food for fungi. Why wouldn't it?
Edited by Shahal Rainrix (09/13/13 02:02 PM)
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Because that is true for plants, but not so much mushrooms.
A lot of gourmet species like oysters will mutate and be unpresentable with extremely high nutrient levels. That is why you have to limit your amount of supplementation for your sawdust. For example, if I add more than a half cup of wheat bran per large sawdust bag, all I get are ugly mushrooms I cannot sell to chefs.
The long standing theory for myself and others is that mushrooms want decaying organic material to grow on and a healthy reservoir of water. They want proper fruiting conditions for their species.
And just like with plants, you can "over-feed" them. You wouldn't want to overfertilize your garden, nor do you want to pack tons of nutrition into your substrate.
There are more reasons too. If you'd like I can continue?
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maddchef
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Simple sugars, carbs, and trace minerals. Complex subs are great such as coir/verm/straw/poo. But its not going to relate like growing weed and adding a super fertilizer.
To throw in my 2cents I recently completed a grow with a clone and I used a good deal of baby formula to hydrate some coir with. If you can think of something more nutritionally complete than baby formula you're one up on me.
Anywho, no real difference could be told in flush nor potency. Point is experimenting is fine, but do it in baby steps.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Now that was the first real helpful info I got on why it won't work. It was better then, it'll be contaminated. But it can be fixed. Also, are the ugly oysters anything but ugly?
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maddchef
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: maddchef]
#18837146 - 09/13/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sometimes limiting nutrients is more beneficial as frank said. Some have even encouraged more rhizomorphic growth by limiting nutes such as with agar. Case in point of easily overpacking a sub with nutrients can be found by looking at grows using perlite or rezz effect.
Myc will produce fruitbodies if even once pretty much without a substrate ie feuiting on perlite. So if myc will flush once on an inate sub, even getting 3 flushes is most likely not using up all the nutrients in a sub, the myc just ends its life cycle.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Skinty
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: maddchef]
#18837164 - 09/13/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm no expert but I also wonder if myc might have less imperative to fruit if it is in a super nutrient environment. Fruiting is a survival strategy / reproductive strategy - if the myc's too happy it might just sit on it's ass. Just a thought
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Shahal Rainrix
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: maddchef]
#18837175 - 09/13/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are other ways to go. I and find a ways to time release or make it denser in some areas more then others. I know, I'll make it like cake! That'll make the name I have in mind make more sense.
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jonnymushroom
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I've used milk but sometimes adding all that stuff like that is asking for trouble. Using milk it made the colonization much faster but failure was also high when I did the testn.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: Now that was the first real helpful info I got on why it won't work. It was better then, it'll be contaminated. But it can be fixed. Also, are the ugly oysters anything but ugly?
I mean, they are edible. Sometimes they get tough/chewy. They don't look so good though, nor is the yield anything to write home about. I wish I took some pictures, I have not experimented with supplementation of my sawdust in quite some time.
The other big reason to bear in mind is that competitor molds are enemy number one.
If you are going to make a highly nutritious substrate, you are going to want to sterilize it. Then you will need to use good sterile technique in front of a flow hood or in a still air box when you inoculate it.
(note to shroomery members: proper use of bold text, here it is emphasizing a main point)
Most all of us like to avoid this where we can. We like to spawn to bulk in open air with minimal precaution.
When you spawn to your bulk substrate in open air, you are introducing a plethora of crap just waiting for a chance to grow. By pasteurizing low-nutrient bulk substrate, we can ensure that our healthy culture colonizes it quickly.
If you are to spawn to a highly-nutritious, pasteurized bulk substrate in open air, all the crap that lands in there will have a much easier time finding a place to call home. That ruins all your work. I don't know about you, I fucking hate having all of my work ruined.
I recommend trying these things out but definitely also try out some tried-n-true methods so you can have something to compare them to.
Also I do apologize for jumping down your throat earlier, our previous interaction left a bad taste in my mouth.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/13/13 02:37 PM)
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Shahal Rainrix
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That's not a list of what I'm adding. I could have made a much longer list. But I felt those are good possibilities. I didn't list pumpkin seed. But that is at the top of my list.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: Now that was the first real helpful info I got on why it won't work. It was better then, it'll be contaminated. But it can be fixed. Also, are the ugly oysters anything but ugly?
I mean, they are edible. Sometimes they get tough/chewy. They don't look so good though, nor is the yield anything to write home about. I wish I took some pictures, I have not experimented with supplementation of my sawdust in quite some time.
The other big reason to bear in mind is that competitor molds are enemy number one.
If you are going to make a highly nutritious substrate, you are going to want to sterilize it. Then you will need to use good sterile technique in front of a flow hood or in a still air box when you inoculate it.
(note to shroomery members: proper use of bold text, here it is emphasizing a main point)
Most all of us like to avoid this where we can. We like to spawn to bulk in open air with minimal precaution.
When you spawn to your bulk substrate in open air, you are introducing a plethora of crap just waiting for a chance to grow. By pasteurizing low-nutrient bulk substrate, we can ensure that our healthy culture colonizes it quickly.
If you are to spawn to a highly-nutritious, pasteurized bulk substrate in open air, all the crap that lands in there will have a much easier time finding a place to call home. That ruins all your work. I don't know about you, I fucking hate having all of my work ruined.
I recommend trying these things out but definitely also try out some tried-n-true methods so you can have something to compare them to.
Also I do apologize for jumping down your throat earlier, our previous interaction left a bad taste in my mouth.
That was some helpful info. I'm mostly gathering info like this. My substrate won't be ready for months after I start growing. I will take small steps because I won't learn a thing by trying it all in one go. I have a lot of food to test and things to buy. But when I am done, I'll enjoy it.
It's okay. I have a hard time getting along with people when I can't see their face. So 50/50 and the other people didn't help calm things.
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Skinty
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Registered: 07/04/13
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Sorry to jump in here and maybe I missed something but I get that you are trying to formulate the most nutritious shroom substrate but I'm not sure why and to what end?
Edited as told off by psillyshroomer
Edited by Skinty (09/13/13 02:56 PM)
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Stromrider
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: Skinty]
#18837279 - 09/13/13 02:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just read the thread skinty
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Shahal Rainrix
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: Skinty]
#18837285 - 09/13/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Skinty said: Sorry to jump in here and maybe I missed something but I get that you are trying to formulate the most nutritious shroom substrate but I'm not sure why and to what end?
Well I want a larger yield among other thing. There are some nutrients that fungi can't make on their own. I'm hoping to bring them up a few levels. In the end I want a longer lasting cake and I'm hoping for the unexpected. But I don't feel like I'm doing anything special here. I found one website that claims to have the best substrate on the net and I'm sure most of it is because of bee pollen.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: Well I want a larger yield among other thing. There are some nutrients that fungi can't make on their own. I'm hoping to bring them up a few levels. In the end I want a longer lasting cake and I'm hoping for the unexpected. But I don't feel like I'm doing anything special here. I found one website that claims to have the best substrate on the net and I'm sure most of it is because of bee pollen.
The lifespan of the cake has less to do with nutrients and more to do with senescence IMO. It just gets old.
Just be real careful when you are reading about mushroom cultivating around the web...especially when people are trying to sell you a product. They talk so much shit. And it's almost always 100% bullshit, taking advantage of people's lack of knowledge on the subject. I find that to be disgusting.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: Well I want a larger yield among other thing. There are some nutrients that fungi can't make on their own. I'm hoping to bring them up a few levels. In the end I want a longer lasting cake and I'm hoping for the unexpected. But I don't feel like I'm doing anything special here. I found one website that claims to have the best substrate on the net and I'm sure most of it is because of bee pollen.
The lifespan of the cake has less to do with nutrients and more to do with senescence IMO. It just gets old.
Just be real careful when you are reading about mushroom cultivating around the web...especially when people are trying to sell you a product. They talk so much shit. And it's almost always 100% bullshit, taking advantage of people's lack of knowledge on the subject. I find that to be disgusting.
That is the site I learned it from. But the bee pollen makes sence, they also use worm cast which I know grows mold like crazy from when I used to raise my own bait.
Edited by Shahal Rainrix (09/13/13 03:12 PM)
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jonnymushroom
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Well its fun to try.
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Shahal Rainrix
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agreed, it doesn't even matter if I fail. As long as I try, I'll still learn how not to make substrate.
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PussyFart
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: ****NOT A SPONSOR****
That is the site I learned it from. But the bee pollen makes sence, they also use worm cast which I know grows mold like crazy from when I used to raise my own bait.
3. Spores are sold for microscopy use only so mycologists can ID mushrooms. If you're going to misuse them to grow a controlled substance, keep it to yourself. Any post which mentions 'such and such' vendor, will be deleted and you'll receive an official warning. Do not plug non sponsors.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Shahal Rainrix
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: PussyFart]
#18837365 - 09/13/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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fixed
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: Substrate Question [Re: PussyFart]
#18837370 - 09/13/13 03:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Midwest has a fucking awful reputation around the mushroom community, shalal.
Don't believe a word they say.
I can't even count the number of times I have seen people complain about the info and equipment purchased from them. They are douchebag pieces of shit.
If you throw that name in the shroomery search engine, you'll see what I mean.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Midwest has a fucking awful reputation around the mushroom community, shalal.
Don't believe a word they say.
I can't even count the number of times I have seen people complain about the info and equipment purchased from them. They are douchebag pieces of shit.
If you throw that name in the shroomery search engine, you'll see what I mean.
thanks for the warning I almost bought from them, but then changed my mind to building my own grow kit.
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RogerRabbit
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: But the bee pollen makes sence, they also use worm cast which I know grows mold like crazy from when I used to raise my own bait.
Why people think flower pollen(it's not bee pollen, they just collect it) has mushroom food is beyond me. Exactly what is there for the mycelium to metabolize? 
Worm castings make a nice additive to bulk substrates, but they would only dilute brf cakes. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: But the bee pollen makes sence, they also use worm cast which I know grows mold like crazy from when I used to raise my own bait.
Why people think flower pollen(it's not bee pollen, they just collect it) has mushroom food is beyond me. Exactly what is there for the mycelium to metabolize? 
Worm castings make a nice additive to bulk substrates, but they would only dilute brf cakes. RR
Google bee pollen, its a super food that has a wide range of nutrients and sense its powder to start with mycelium can break it down easily like brf.
Worm casting could give mycelium nutrients that it can't convert itself.
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bodhisatta 
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I would take the advice of people that are not trying to sell you anything at all, and are offering only help to see you grow. There is 0 motive for us to tell you bad advice, and all the motive in the world to help you cultivate. Imagine if doctors worked for only a sense of purpose and charity.
Quote:
Google bee pollen, its a super food that has a wide range of nutrients and sense its powder to start with mycelium can break it down easily like brf.
Worm casting could give mycelium nutrients that it can't convert itself.
RR just told you it's not bee pollen. Bees make honey they take pollen. Is "butterfly pollen" not as good then? Just because it's a powered has nothing to do with how mycellium metabolizes it and learn how to spell it right.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: Google bee pollen, its a super food that has a wide range of nutrients and sense its powder to start with mycelium can break it down easily like brf.
Worm casting could give mycelium nutrients that it can't convert itself.
I've used pollen in a test before. Zero benefits IMO.
I guess I would ask, what good is all of these technical details when they don't provide any real benefit in practice?
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RogerRabbit
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I'm a bee keeper and commercial mushroom farmer. What I was saying is using bee pollen for mushrooms is akin to snake oil. If it gave one whit of benefit, I'd be using it. My point is that we need to be very careful evaluating what we read on the internet. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: I would take the advice of people that are not trying to sell you anything at all, and are offering only help to see you grow. There is 0 motive for us to tell you bad advice, and all the motive in the world to help you cultivate. Imagine if doctors worked for only a sense of purpose and charity.
Quote:
Google bee pollen, its a super food that has a wide range of nutrients and sense its powder to start with mycelium can break it down easily like brf.
Worm casting could give mycelium nutrients that it can't convert itself.
RR just told you it's not bee pollen. Bees make honey they take pollen. Is "butterfly pollen" not as good then? Just because it's a powered has nothing to do with how mycellium metabolizes it and learn how to spell it right.
I'm taking about it as a product! And it's spelled with 1 L.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Don't worry about it guys. Just let me worry about it.
ANd how much bee pollen did you use Frank?
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: I'm a bee keeper and commercial mushroom farmer. What I was saying is using bee pollen for mushrooms is akin to snake oil. If it gave one whit of benefit, I'd be using it. My point is that we need to be very careful evaluating what we read on the internet. RR

that's cool and all, but I didn't rely on 1 source. Bee pollen has been re occurring in my searches for possible substrate.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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It was over nine months ago, I couldn't tell you. I run a large number of substrates every month across various species.
I can tell you without a doubt that RogerRabbit is the source of up to date info. His mushroomvideos.com site is the very foundation on which most of us (including me) base our work on.
RR will not bullshit you. Other people and other sites certainly will. Take his word first and others second (myself included in the latter).
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Shahal Rainrix
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No thanks, I can't trust someone like that. There is helpful and too helpful. People trusted me in high school and I was very helpful. But I always crushed those who crossed me. So I don't trust people that are too helpful. It's fair advice.
Don't trust someone until you know how they are sick. I've had visual and auditory hallucinations since I was 5. I hid it for 18 years and no one even knew until I openly admited it and got help for all the other problems people did suspect.
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SpitballJedi
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Dude, you really shouldn't eat hallucinogenic mushrooms. I just feel compelled to put that out there.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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budkatz

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There is a "supercake" recipe on another site, using many of these additives. You might check into it. The author of the thread used bee pollen, worm casting tea, corn meal, etc. You could probably find it with google search.
Good luck, let us know your results.
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maddchef
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: budkatz]
#18837737 - 09/13/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Good lord........I'm not even going to go there. But yeah what he said about not eating hallucination causing fungi or other sources.
This bee pollen snoz makes absolutely no sense. Now if you wait for it to become honey, well then yeah.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Skinty
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: maddchef]
#18837785 - 09/13/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Honey is good for you - just eat some of that and forget about using "bee pollen" to grow something you are too paranoid to eat
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Stromrider
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: Skinty]
#18837812 - 09/13/13 05:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hell yeah let's all just eat some honey! I just stole some from my bees today!
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Shahal Rainrix
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I'll be fine, the hallucinations come from brain damage. I just started the meds for paranoia a month ago. I also don't have much of a filter anymore do to these pills. So I just say what comes to mind most of the time. I may stop taking most of my meds. I mean 14 different pills. The hallucinations aren't that bad and I know they aren't real and they were fun to watch.
And why doesn't bee pollen make sense? Do you know what nutrients are in it or what nutrients are in mushroom? Mushrooms have evolved to use almost anything for food, but there are somethings it can't convert (I'm still looking for that info). I honestly want to know and this isn't a jab or anything.
Special thanks to Budkatz. I'll look into that.
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Shahal Rainrix
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Re: Substrate Question [Re: budkatz]
#18838209 - 09/13/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
budkatz said: There is a "supercake" recipe on another site, using many of these additives. You might check into it. The author of the thread used bee pollen, worm casting tea, corn meal, etc. You could probably find it with google search.
Good luck, let us know your results.
I have to thank you again. It was consistent with my notes. It even added coconut flour which are also on my list. Thanks!
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SpitballJedi
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Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: And why doesn't bee pollen make sense? Do you know what nutrients are in it or what nutrients are in mushroom?
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: But the bee pollen makes sence, ...
...Exactly what is there for the mycelium to metabolize?  RR
I'm not trying to be a dick, but instead of asking us why it don't make sense, how about you telling us exactly why it does make sense. I'm an idiot and really would like for you to break it down to me.
Also, for the purpose of cultivation, it doesn't matter what nutrients are in mushrooms. What matters is what nutrients are in your growth medium for mycelium to consume.
If you do indeed want to know the nutritional value of mushrooms, then I don't know. But I would be curious as to why you would want to know. Some sort of reverse engineering? If you know what they are made of, maybe you could figure out what they metabolized to get that nutrient?
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Shahal Rainrix
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: And why doesn't bee pollen make sense? Do you know what nutrients are in it or what nutrients are in mushroom?
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Shahal Rainrix said: But the bee pollen makes sence, ...
...Exactly what is there for the mycelium to metabolize?  RR
I'm not trying to be a dick, but instead of asking us why it don't make sense, how about you telling us exactly why it does make sense. I'm an idiot and really would like for you to break it down to me.
Also, for the purpose of cultivation, it doesn't matter what nutrients are in mushrooms. What matters is what nutrients are in your growth medium for mycelium to consume.
If you do indeed want to know the nutritional value of mushrooms, then I don't know. But I would be curious as to why you would want to know. Some sort of reverse engineering? If you know what they are made of, maybe you could figure out what they metabolized to get that nutrient?
I looked at it and added that note at the end because I was worried it would offend. But I honestly didn't mean it like that.
But yeah, you see where I'm going and I already did it. I have gotten as close to the break down as I could, by looking at nutrition labels. I'm sure my list is incomplete though. Not all the labels listed selenium or magnesium. I also had to look at a broad range of mushrooms. I know there has to be at least a few things I'm missing so I can compare it.
((copied from my notes, I forgot where I got it)) Fungi feed by absorbing nutrients from the organic material in which they live. Fungi do not have stomachs. They must digest their food before it can pass through the cell wall into the hyphae. Hyphae secrete acids and enzymes that break the surrounding organic material down into simple molecules they can easily absorb.
Fungi have evolved to use a lot of different items for food. Some are decomposers living on dead organic material like leaves. Some fungi cause diseases by using living organisms for food. These fungi infect plants, animals and even other fungi. Athlete’s foot and ringworm are two fungal diseases in humans. The mycorrhizal fungi live as partners with plants. They provide mineral nutrients to the plant in exchange for carbohydrates or other chemicals fungi cannot manufacture. ((end))
There are things that it can't generate on it's own. What if potassium is a major? Coco coir Contains significant amounts of phosphorous and potassium and so do mushrooms. What I found to make up a mushroom are these...
Folate (Vitamin B9) Niacin (Vitamin B3) Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B5) Riboflavin (Vitamin B2) Thiamin (Vitamin B1) Vitamin B6 Copper Iron Magnesium Phosphorus Potassium Calcium Selenium Zinc Fiber
Rye, brf and horse poo also have atleast 4 each. I hear horse poo works a little better then coco coir and it also has phosphorus and potassium, but with bonus calcium and magnesium. Isn't that worth looking into?
((Note: typing alot is hard for me do to brain damage. Its a short term memory problem.))
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Even if increasing all of those doesn't work like suggested, re-balancing them could still work. Increasing and decreasing could show fair changes. Before I even try mixing my substrates I'm going to try each ingredient, + verm, by themselves to test results. Its going to be a long road.
Edited by Shahal Rainrix (09/14/13 07:24 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Does any one have some isolates fruited on different substrates to show him just how genetic growth is? You would probably need to upload it somewhere that could be found from a google search though. Shahal why don't you look through RR's gallery. He's a bee keeper, and his livelihood is growing mushrooms for profit, so success is kind of paramount.
I think you should be able to tell us about enzyme secretion and nutrient absorption in terms of molecular signalling pathways and proteins. As well, be able to demonstrate a good understanding of mushrooms genetics in your own words. Before you go trying to make up food.
I would love to see what you could come up for the next new cat or dog food.
Have you made up a superfood cocktail for humans yet? Would even you eat that shit?
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (09/14/13 07:18 AM)
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