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Invisiblemaddchef
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Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed
    #18833182 - 09/12/13 04:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Jeebus christ. So I've had my last 6 (20 quarts of sub a piece) tubs go bad before the first flush, trich of course. Since its before fruiting, all signs point to bad spawn.

But......all my jars and bags seemed perfectly fine. Even sat for a while after full colonization with no green sporelation. I used to keep track of my masters for G2G, which jars/bags got what, etc. But on my scale its just too much record keeping.

I'm going to assume that one or more of my G2G masters had trich myc hiding amongst it but still, jeebus.

Now if I pasteurized properly or used the bucket tek shouldn't really come into play since my tubs developed trich before fruiting correct?

While I'm at it, aside from using jars, how would you personally go about pasteurizing 2bricks of coir and a couple quarts of verm? Preferably in one shot. I do own a metal trashcan and an outdoor propane burner. But again I don't think this is the issue as I'm getting nuked before fruiting is induced.

Looks like ill be making another outdoor bed.

Any thoughts?


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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OfflineSagescruffy
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: maddchef]
    #18833242 - 09/12/13 04:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My guess is that the coir you are using is treated with trich.


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: Sagescruffy]
    #18833265 - 09/12/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Shouldn't be. It's Eco earth, what I've always used


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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OfflineSagescruffy
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: maddchef]
    #18833289 - 09/12/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Either contams are getting or got into your grain jars when you g2g or your pasteurization is at fault. Why are you assuming that just because things are getting covered in green before the first flush that it's not your pasteurization technique?


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Invisibleazur
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: maddchef]
    #18833305 - 09/12/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I feel ya bro.  I threw out I think 10 in the past week.  I just posted the other day about checking spawn.  I thought the same thing as you. 
So yesterday I switched my pasteurization technique and I'm really thinking that was the issue. 
Today while watering my plants, I noticed mushies coming up on the sub I threw out.  That led me to believe that my spawn was good and all the fresh air outside helped it.  Who knows?

I, like you, got carried away and quit taking such good records.  It matters.  My new thought is, slow down!  Two great tubs are better than ten lost tubs. 

How are you pasteurizing?  I was using a giant oven bag in a pot of water.  I'm doing jars now.  Best of luck.


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: Sagescruffy]
    #18833309 - 09/12/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Usually when you have poor pasteurization IME, contams show up as fruiting is initiated or shortly thereafter. I've done bucket tek and proper pasteurization and that's just what I've noticed.

Plus I'm relatively sure that all the grain used was from a master.


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: maddchef]
    #18833317 - 09/12/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm between pasteurization methods atm. I'm attempting to find a feasible way to pasteurize 20 quarts or so at a time since my pc on holds 7qt jars.

Half the tubs were done via bucket tek, the other half pillowcase method.


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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InvisibleNice Ol Bud
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: maddchef]
    #18833329 - 09/12/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Make a Over-sized glove box for mono prep just to be sure!
LOL.

What's your Coir prep? 5 gal bucket and boiling water?
Not good once you have trich up and running in your house.


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OfflineSagescruffy
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: Nice Ol Bud]
    #18833335 - 09/12/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah dude I'm sure you'll figure it out. If you were to start a new culture and properly pasteurize (not saying you aren't) then I would see no reason for you to fail other than if contams were to get into your jars while doing g2g transfers.


--------------------
Love.


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: maddchef]
    #18833338 - 09/12/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Only thing I can think of is my master had nasties in it and to start the whole process over.

Just don't get why it never showed in any jars or bags.

Any ideas on proper pasteurization of 20qts at a time?


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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OfflineSagescruffy
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Registered: 10/30/09
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: Sagescruffy]
    #18833354 - 09/12/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Get a big pot or two? There are black canning pots at Walmart for around $15 that can hold around 7qt jars at a time. But at one time, just bigger containers to pasteurize in is all I can think of. Through searching around on the forum I have run across posts of people like RR saying that some contams will just piggie back on your culture and you'll never know it, but all your grows will fail without you knowing why. So you're probably right in the assumption that some nasties got into your master jar.


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Love.


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: Sagescruffy]
    #18833364 - 09/12/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Very discouraging when I think of the potential loss of mush. Much less the money spent on supplies and manpower applied.


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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Invisiblecynical bastad
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Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 175
Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: maddchef]
    #18833443 - 09/12/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Don't know much, but i do know you need to go check out Tbag's grow along, using a Roaster and gallon zip lock bags.  From what i've read and been told.  Sterilizing your sub is just as bad for contams to take over. Proper pasteurization for bulk = Roaster.


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Invisiblecynical bastad
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: cynical bastad]
    #18833465 - 09/12/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tbagtag said:
What is the difference between bucket tek and proper pasteurization?

A lot

Some will claim that it accomplishes the same goal, but it doesn't.  The reason it works for coir is because coir is naturally contam resistant.  You could potentially spawn to non-pasteurized coir and still obtain results.  If bucket tek worked properly it would work for other substrates such as poo and straw.

Pasteurization, not just what we refer to as proper pasteurization, requires 2 things - a temperature between 160-170 degrees being held for 1 hour followed by a rapid cool down.  This is why we when we pasteurize we remove our substrate from the bath we submerge it in.

With bucket tek there is no guarantee that the substrate will reach the proper temperature, let alone hold it for an hour.  You cannot check as this will release heat and expose your substrate to unwanted visitors.

Now in the event that the temperature of the substrate could even reach and hold the temperature you cannot provide a rapid cool down.

How do I know this?  Physics and math!  Plastic buckets from a hardware store do not and cannot break the laws of thermodynamics and Newton's law of cooling.

Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are both in thermal equilibrium with a third system then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. This law helps define the notion of temperature.

In physics, the phrase thermal equilibrium is used sometimes in the common parlance of the ordinary language of physical discourse, and sometimes as a specialized technical term in thermodynamics.
As common parlance, the phrase refers to steady states of temperature, which may be spatial or temporal. The meaning varies from occasion to occasion, as with all ordinary language usages.
Thermal equilibrium as a technical term in thermodynamics can also be used in two senses. One sense is that of thermal equilibrium within a system for itself. The other sense is that of a relation between the respective physical states of two bodies. Thermal equilibrium in a system for itself means that the temperature within the system is spatially and temporally uniform. Thermal equilibrium as a relation between the physical states of two bodies means that there is actual or implied thermal connection between them, through a path that is permeable only to heat, and that no

The relation of thermal equilibrium is an instance of a contact equilibrium between two bodies. This means that it refers to transfer through a selectively permeable partition, the contact path. For the relation of thermal equilibrium, the contact path is permeable only to heat; it does not permit the passage of matter or work. According to Lieb and Yngvason, the essential meaning of the relation of thermal equilibrium includes that it is reflexive and symmetric. It is not included in the essential meaning whether it is or is not transitive. After discussing the semantics of the definition, they postulate a substantial physical axiom, that they call the "zeroth law of thermodynamics", that thermal equilibrium is a transitive relation. They comment that the equivalence classes of systems so established are called isotherms.

Newton's Model of Cooling says that the rate at which an object loses or gains heat is proportional to the difference between its temperature and the ambient temperature

So, if an object gains heat at the same rate that the heat is dispersed we would need to work the equation to determine the exact temperature of the water and at what intervals the water cools.  The rate the water cools is the rate the coir raises - at some point it will meet at an equal temperature.  seems like a lot of work for something we can do much easier and do it right.  Doing pasteurization is much easier and will give you the ability to move onto additional species.  Bucket tek is not pasteurization and will not give you these skills.

Any questions?



Quote:

tbagtag said:
Bulk Sub Prep Tek Part 1: Hydration

Supplies needed:
2 Bricks Coco Coir (if bought at a grow shop make sure it wasnt treated with trich.  The easiest one to get is Eco Earth from and major pet store.  Works great for newbies)
Vermiculite preferable medium (sometimes referred to as grade 2), fine will also work.
Gypsum (pellets are a-ok)
2 gallons of water and 1 quart jar of water
A bucket with a tight fitting lid



This recipe will make more than enough substrate for 2 30ish qt mini monos or 1 large mono over 66qt.  When we are done I will give you tips for the leftovers.

Scale as needed

Step 1:
Take 6 qts vermiculite and put in the bucket



2 cups gypsum - put it in the bucket



Should look like this



With your hand mix it as well as you can while its dry.  This prevents gypsum clumps; especially with pelletized gypsum.  Should look like below when done.




Now add 2 bricks of Eco Earth, if using bulk coir each brick of Eco Earth weighs 1# 7oz.  So you will need 2# 14oz of bulk coir (yes i weighed all 3 bricks to find out)

Put this in the bucket.



Now pour 2 gallons of water and 1 quart jar of water in the bucket.  Put the lid on it and set your timer for 60 minutes.



If you do not wait the full 60 minutes you will get leprosy, shits toxic till at field capacity.  Well not really, just dont fuck with it for a full 60 minutes.

See you again in over an hour where we mix, test for field capacity and bag our sub for pasteurization.



Quote:

tbagtag said:
Making Substrate Pt 2: Mixing and Pasteurization

Supplies needed:

Gloves
Oven Roaster
Gallon Ziploc Baggies
Paper Towel
Alcohol
Meat Thermometer

So this is what you're going to be greeted with when you take the lid off of your bucket.



The gloves are optional as this is messy as fuck.  The gloves just help with the cleanup and prevents any skin flakes or hair from your palms from getting in the mix.

We need to make sure we mix up the coir, verm and gypsum till it is even and there are no clumps of coir or pockets of verm.

One tip I give is pull from the bottom and build up along the side of the bucket and push down.  Keep fluffing and repeating, I usually spend 30-60 minutes mixing my sub to get it nice.  Take the time to do this right.  After it is all mixed together put the lid back on the bucket and wait 30 minutes.



This is how it should look all the way through:




This extra 30 minutes helps with the redistribution of water after the mix.

After 30 minutes test for field capacity.  When you pick up a clump no water should come out, when you squeeze you should have anywhere from a few drops to a small trickle.  If it is too much water you can add another half quart of verm - but if you follow my instructions above, mix properly and wait that extra 30 minutes you will be good.

Each bag can hold up to 4qts of substrate, since we are only working with 22 qts of substrate we are going to put slightly less than that in each bag.  Just try to make the bags as even as possible.  Do not worry if there is coir in the zipper area, when we use the bags when can use sterile scissors to cut below the zipper area.



Zip up the bags (slide style bags will not work for this. 

Assemble your roaster oven so it looks like below.  Put your bags in before the water.  Let out any excess air from the bags and re-zip. 



In the middle bag open the top slightly to put your meat thermometer in and zip the bag shut as best as possible.



Fill the roaster with water halfway up the bags and put the lid on.




Plug in your roaster and set the temperature to 160 degrees.  Check your meat thermometer after 2 hours, if you are not at 160 degrees on your thermometer check back in an hour and each hour after that (usually 4 hours to hit 160 degrees).  Once the center has hit 160 unplug the roaster (mine doesnt have an on/off), leave the lid on for 1 hour and then promptly remove the substrate to cool after that hour.

You just now pasteurized 22qts of substrate in 4 hours without having to stand over the stove.




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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: maddchef]
    #18833478 - 09/12/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

maddchef said:
I'm going to assume that one or more of my G2G masters had trich myc hiding amongst it but still, jeebus.

Now if I pasteurized properly or used the bucket tek shouldn't really come into play since my tubs developed trich before fruiting correct
Any thoughts?




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18769055#18769055:shrug:


Quote:

maddchef said:
Any ideas on proper pasteurization of 20qts at a time?




I've used 1 gallon zip-locks. They make 2 gallon ones as well. You can also use myco bags without the filter patch. Some people have used turkey roaster bags, but they seem kind flimsy to me.


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Invisibleazur
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Re: Ive lost my last 6 monotubs, highly pissed [Re: cynical bastad]
    #18833528 - 09/12/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I use half gallon jars.  Two pots each hold 4 jars, so I can do 16 quarts in one run.  Once it's up to temp, I turn the gas off and put the pot lids on.  Just started doing this yesterday, but I think it'll be a hit. 
I just built a tub with spawn I suspected bad before, but it looked and smelled amazing!  Remember, it's summer and there are more nasties in the air than usual. I have a great feeling now that I'm pasteurizing in jars and not a big ass bag.


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!



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