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OfflineSagescruffy
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What is the difference between Panaeolus varieties and species?
    #18828059 - 09/11/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

What is the difference between the varieties of Panaeolus Cambodginiensis and the the varieties of Panaeolus Cyanescens as well as the difference between Panaeolus Cambodginiensis and Panaeolus Cyanescen?


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InvisibleTangich

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Re: What is the difference between Panaeolus varieties and species? [Re: Sagescruffy]
    #18828113 - 09/11/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Microscopic characteristics.


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OfflineSagescruffy
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Re: What is the difference between Panaeolus varieties and species? [Re: Tangich]
    #18828171 - 09/11/13 02:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The different varieties have different microscopic features? That's actually pretty cool. Why does the Jalisco strain of Panaeolus Cyanescens look so different than the Hawaii strain?


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Invisiblespaceman101
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Re: What is the difference between Panaeolus varieties and species? [Re: Sagescruffy]
    #19556602 - 02/12/14 10:02 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I'm in the process of trying to find some of the same information. Mainly information on whether there is any different growth preferences between the 2 and if there is any major differences or fluctuations in the potency between the different types? FYI I'm hoping to attempt to cultivate outdoors my very first panaeolus mushrooms hopefully the Goliath type if there good and would grow down here in the deep south.

Is there anyone out there that has experience and knows about these 2 different types?


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InvisibleTangich

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Re: What is the difference between Panaeolus varieties and species? [Re: spaceman101]
    #19556616 - 02/12/14 10:06 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

No differences in growth patterns and requirements, macroscopic characteristics are not much different either, they are more dependent on growing conditions. No significant difference in alkaloid content either, P. cambodginienses may be a bit more potent.


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OfflineCogsy
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Re: What is the difference between Panaeolus varieties and species? [Re: Tangich]
    #19556660 - 02/12/14 10:18 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

This is taken directly from this page
http://www.shroomery.org/8421/Panaeolus-cyanescens-FAQ#distinguish

What distinguishes Panaeolus cyanescens, Panaeolus tropicalis and Panaeolus cambodginiensis
both microscopically and macroscopically?

Panaeolus cyanescens and cambodginiensis are 4 spored, the former occasionally 2 spored. Panaeolus tropicalis is 2 spored. Psilocybe cubensis itself is sometimes 2, or 3 spored versus the normal 4 spored.
Psilocybe cubensis, Pan. cyanescens, and Pan. cambodginiensis should all have the same breeding system. Heterolthallic.
Pan. tropicalis is probably different, because of the 2 spored basidia. Probably some type of homothallic breeding strategy.
Homothallic systems are easier to obtain fruits from, one type just requires a period of time to pass before the dikaryotic colony emerges, the other type it is germinated dikaryotic. Some strains will just be more vigorous then others!!!!
In the case of the other 4 spored pans. cyans, and cambodginiensis, the system will either be identical too cubensis, or it will be unifactorial, in which case it should be far easier to obtain a fruiting strain, not more difficult.
Notice the size difference. The cambodginiensis are much shorter shrooms, with maximum cap size of 25 mm. The cyanescens reach cap sizes well above that, and heights well above the heights obtained by these "cambodginiensis". Tropicalis get the tallest, but have the smallest cap size.
Without looking at spore size, it will be highly difficult to separate these three species. All share very similar appearance. I did notice these "cambodginiensis" started off at the button stage, EXTREMELY DARKER BROWN than the tropicalis, and the cyanescens I have grown.
On agar there are vast differences in appearance between each species, and even within the cyanescens complex, their are vast differences in color and texture of the different geographical spore races. The Hawaiian cyanescens forms little sclerotia on the agar, and is faster growing then the Tai, and the cambodian. The tai actually has a similar growth pattern to the cambodginiensis on agar. Definite zones of fluctuating growth, due to mild temperature changes. It is more rhizomorphic then the cambodian, and hawaiian cyanescens. On AGAR.
Appearance and size are based on substrate composition, and environmental parameters + genetics. Genetics determine the range of possibilities, but are activated by the environmental parameters.
I think as Stametes States, the only way to know for sure is by measuring the spore size. But I think when growing on the same substrate in the same environmental parameters, SIZE RANGE of the mature mushrooms is very telling. I also think that what the Differentiated Button Mushroom looks like, before water expansion, is also very telling.
What does the mushroom look like when it first appears as a mushroom? Tropicalis and cyanescens look very light colored compared to the cambodginiensis. This is the chocolate, that Stamets refers too.
Personally, I don't think there is much difference between all three of these species. I actually prefer the cyanescens. It is the easiest to print, it is the easiest to grow, it is the fastest to pin, and it gets the largest out of the three. All three look very similar to me when grown indoors. Outdoors, they all look different from the indoor grown. They all get larger, consistently.
I don't think I would compare the outdoor cambodginiensis picture in Stamets book, to an indoor cambodginiensis. I have yet to grow a cyanescens that looks like the picture in the book, or a tropicalis for that matter.

All of the Panaeolus/Copelandias in circulation fall within the range of Panaeolus cyanescens. The cambodginiensis I looked at both macroscopically and microscopically, circulating in the community, had microscopic sizes consistent with cyanescens. The "tropicalis" floating around, a wild one and two domesticated ones, all had sizes consistent with cyanescens as well.
I found no strains in circulation that could be seperated from Copelandia cyanescens based on all the macroscopic and microscopic comparisons.

by teonan


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great write-up for new-guys :smile:
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Invisiblespaceman101
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Re: What is the difference between Panaeolus varieties and species? [Re: Cogsy]
    #19557427 - 02/12/14 02:22 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Awesome! That's what I was looking for on that subject thanks for sharing.

I have another question about growing Panaeolus cambodginiensis or cyanescens outdoors. I figured I'd post it here since I've spent the last 3-4 hours using the search bar looking for a simple tek on how to cultivate this species outdoors but I couldn't find anything at all but a bunch of different indoor grows.
I didn't really want to start a new thread for this question but I'm thinking since there's little info on this subject it might be worth making a thread dedicated to the outdoor growth of this species.
I mainly wanted to know if it's even worth spending the money for pans and going through the process of making a bed without knowing if it would produce enough to cover the effort I have to put into it? Do you think it's worth a shot or should I just get some good cubes and put together multiple beds?


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OfflineCogsy
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Re: What is the difference between Panaeolus varieties and species? [Re: spaceman101]
    #19557813 - 02/12/14 03:48 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I have never looked into the outdoor cultivation of this species whatsoever.. But, all mushrooms have evolved to grow outdoors so it must be entirely possible given the right parameters :smile:


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great write-up for new-guys :smile:
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