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Invisibleoropal
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The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness
    #18823015 - 09/10/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

For my first post, I shall offer a question, that hopefully will rattle some brains. The question is open, and if you have a true inclination to philosophy, you will under stand that the question is so complex that it may be taken too simply, which will undermine any fruitful conversation thereof.

The question is a complex one with many variations, so I will focus it on one aspect. Psychedelic drugs.

I am assuming that most people have experienced an awaking of the consciousness, through the use of mushrooms, lsd, dmt and other substances, which have made them aware of the world they are living in, both materially, and non-materially.

Now without going into the subject non-materiality, which is so expansive, and without end, or clarification. I would like to focus on the material aspect. That is the world that we see, touch, hear etc.

But more importantly, understanding the structures that underpin our existence, not only on a personal level but on a global level, in particular, in relation to how the structure of the world is controlled, and how this affects us as participants in this society.

I know this may be a tad confusing, so I shall clarify the question more succinctly.

By the use of psychedelics, do you feel that it has changed your interaction and view of the world in which you participate, has it open your eyes, removed the filters of conditioning, and if so, what is the next step of enlightenment, and can this be a method to help people, who are at this moment, still locked in a mode of perception, of the world, private and public, which is skewed, and ultimately influenced by other people (Governments, churches, etc etc) with an agenda.

I end it here, as I could write much more, but to clarify once more, this question is seen by the writer as a catalyst for discussion, rather than a perfectly formulated question.

Thank you, and hopefully we can get into a question which has so many answers and offshoots that would boggle the mind to calculate.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: oropal]
    #18823114 - 09/10/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

do you feel that it has changed your interaction and view of the world in which you participate, has it open your eyes, removed the filters of conditioning, and if so, what is the next step of enlightenment,




Yes and very much so.  Next step is to manage the paranormal within everyday life.
Quote:


and can this be a method to help people, who are at this moment, still locked in a mode of perception, of the world, private and public, which is skewed, and ultimately influenced by other people (Governments, churches, etc etc) with an agenda.




I think this is what is happening for at least some people already so yes.  And to my knowledge there is quite a subculture that believes just that^


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: oropal]
    #18823227 - 09/10/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

oropal said:

By the use of psychedelics, do you feel that it has changed your interaction and view of the world in which you participate, has it open your eyes, removed the filters of conditioning, and if so, what is the next step of enlightenment, and can this be a method to help people, who are at this moment, still locked in a mode of perception, of the world, private and public, which is skewed, and ultimately influenced by other people (Governments, churches, etc etc) with an agenda.




Yes psychedelics have opened my eyes and released many unnecessary inhibitions in my life.

I don't believe in "enlightenment", but as far as the general idea goes of continued psychological and intellectual evolution, the next step for an individual IMO would be cutting all religious ties. Reexamining life from a fresh set of eyes by examining the evidence, what we can prove - what we do know.


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Invisibleoropal
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #18823367 - 09/10/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes the sub culture, has been there, ever since the brotherhood of eternal love et al, that had obvious misguided intentions, maybe not misguided, but missing the point.

But even thought there are sub cultures that believe there can be a transformation of the consciousness through the aid of psychedelics, who does this tie with your personal experience,

Once the door is opened so to speak, how can one work within this framework of society, without being labelled with a multitude of insults and put downs. Therefore it begs the question, why are we, you, us, who have been awakened to the stupidity, and more importantly the dangerous attitude of those, controlling, managing, and manipulating our social and natural systems of living, on many different levels, why are we, still within the system, and should we be the ones to spread the word so to speak, spread the love, spread the drug, etc without getting caught up in the label of hippy, new ageist and so on and so forth in the paradoxical negativity of positive things.

Also I do not think that spreading drugs would change much in its basic premise, as we saw in the 60s, but if first, there can somehow be a jolt to people, to elevate them out from their stupor, then certain drugs, can enhance, spiritual and intellectual (philosophical) awareness and transformation.

Also, since there are so many psychoactives, that have many different uses, that to think about this aspect of the discussion would mean more knowledge(at least for myself) on the wide range of chemicals, from plants, and mushrooms etc and their interaction with the biological, and spiritual, and cognitive systems of the human being. And maybe for the benefit of other animals(Are they allowed to trip, A moral/ethical question, to think about)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: oropal]
    #18823387 - 09/10/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I do think psychedelics administered under clinical settings could be distributed in mass for great benefit to our civilization. Not just for people who have problems, but for anyone who wants more from life.

A psychedelic playground for adults run by doctors


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Invisibleoropal
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18823397 - 09/10/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

To cut all religious ties?

This is already in formation, in the secular west.

But let me disagree, because, religion has a very big scope, and what you are talking about amounts to ignorance at best and censorship at worse, which is not good for any critically minded individual.

I would on the other hand, look at the problematic of the dogmatic nature of religion, and as we are speaking of dogma, in our age, the dogma of religion, does not reign, but rather the dogma of science is king today, which I sense most people do not realize. Dogmas of all hues, are in my opinion, not only unhealthy, intellectually, but a dangerous method of thinking, where, thinking outside of the dogma, is looked down upon, sometimes vanquished, so the direction of thought can be directed and controlled.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: oropal]
    #18823409 - 09/10/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

All religions are by definition dogmatic, systems made up of assumptions given from one person or group to another from which to base their life. There is nothing positive about religion.


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Invisibleoropal
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18823453 - 09/10/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

To participate in a religion, is in a sense dogmatic, but to look at religion, without being a follower, I say, that it is very much possible to find positive attributes without succumbing to dogma. To say there is no positivity in religion, is simply nonsense.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: oropal]
    #18823468 - 09/10/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

oropal said:
To participate in a religion, is in a sense dogmatic, but to look at religion, without being a follower, I say, that it is very much possible to find positive attributes without succumbing to dogma. To say there is no positivity in religion, is simply nonsense.




Its not nonsense at all, find one positive attribute to religion which couldn't be obtained through honest means.


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Invisibleoropal
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18823988 - 09/10/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe you should start a new thread for these questions. But I will try and answer you regardless. To find one positive attribute to religion that cannot be obtained through honest means?

If we look at it in another way, Lets say what could one achieve, without the philosophy, spiritual and religious texts from antiquity until now.

One, could achieve the same revelations, life a wholesome life etc etc

But this is besides the point, and really does require a new thread.

I have to clarify, that I am not affiliated with any religion, and due to my dislike of dogma, I probably never will be, but this does not stop me from being aware that there is still something to gain from religious texts.

I think your question is something else. rather that we do not need religious institutions, and religion as a way of life. Of following a set of rules in how to live etc etc. But then again, this is not the topic of my thread, so I would create your own, as it is a subject which is not a simple as you seem to think. .

Even though the topic of my thread is linked to the subject of spirituality, that would awaken the people, it could be said hypothetically that this could be achieved through a religion (not my belief, a hypothetical statement), and this brings on the question of what a religion is, and more importantly what it could be. Is it possible to have a religion without dogma, actually is it possible to have any social structure without dogma, as it is not only religion and science that contains dogma, but all over the board. But this is also for another thread, maybe now you realize that from this one thread, we could create hundreds of other threads related to this topic, to stop us becoming entwined in theological etc (off-topic, offshoots of the topic) discussions about the validity of religion. Which as I have repeatedly stated would require a new thread.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: oropal]
    #18824023 - 09/10/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Its relevant, if one is bound to any religion they are philosophically and psychologically impaired. Being bound to a religion is a manifestation of that impairment as well as a cause for future impairment.

If one wants to evolve intellectually, religion is on a whole the greatest impairment of knowledge and progress for our specie / civilization. So it must be cut. From the inquisition to the arbitrary asceticism of Buddhists, to the Indian caste system, across to laws belonging to various religious sects banning music and dancing.
Even in its mildest form religion is at best an obstacle for free thinking.

Feel free to disagree with me, but at the core of my philosophy concerning life is the principle of autonomous thought. Religion is a mass of assumptions given from 3rd person, overriding autonomous thought.


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Invisibleoropal
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18824141 - 09/10/13 04:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

But I am not disagreeing with you per se, but I am trying to understand your meaning, and when speaking about religion, we have to include all parts of religion, which involves many aspects.

As I have stated, which conforms to your statement, that any dogma impeaches on free thinking. This is not in question here, but rather going back to your original question, which I tried to answer, which was that there is nothing positive in religion, and I remain in opposition to this statement.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: oropal]
    #18824161 - 09/10/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Generalizing religion is enough for me, they're conceptually the same with minor variations in detail.

Anything positive concerning religion is outweighed by the negative, as the positive aspects can be found outside religion I negate them entirely. Something like the protein in fastfood, sure its there but that doesn't make a bigmac healthy.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18824685 - 09/10/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I tend to think that to not be a follower but to learn from the teachings or lack there of is a correct stance on the issue.


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Invisibleoropal
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: oropal]
    #18825130 - 09/10/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Fishoil, I tend to think in this sense also, I can read the bible, or Laotse, or krishna and not have succumb to the belief/dogma, but take interesting aspects, both positive and negative, and learn from them. I look at them in a way that followers do not.

Also with alot of texts, the meaning is not as clear as it is written, and has been appropriated, mostly by followers and formed into something different than its intended meaning.

On this point, I as a non-believer/follower, I have probably read more of the bible than alot of believers.

And if we look at the history of literature, we see that some of the main texts of the last centuries have direct influence from the religious concepts, such as, John Milton's Paradise Lost, and Dantes inferno to name a few, which of course is due to the prevalence of religion as a strong institution for the past thousand or so years, and this is the point, whether we like it or not, our culture is completely influenced from religious and spiritual discourse, and it is folly to dismiss it all as hokey pokey madcap nutters spouting religious propaganda.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18826287 - 09/11/13 02:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Its relevant, if one is bound to any religion they are philosophically and psychologically impaired. Being bound to a religion is a manifestation of that impairment as well as a cause for future impairment.

If one wants to evolve intellectually, religion is on a whole the greatest impairment of knowledge and progress for our specie / civilization. So it must be cut. From the inquisition to the arbitrary asceticism of Buddhists, to the Indian caste system, across to laws belonging to various religious sects banning music and dancing.
Even in its mildest form religion is at best an obstacle for free thinking.

Feel free to disagree with me, but at the core of my philosophy concerning life is the principle of autonomous thought. Religion is a mass of assumptions given from 3rd person, overriding autonomous thought.





We might as well do away with human culture entirely then because religious or not, our thinking is so influenced by those around us and those who came before us that it is always full of 3rd person assumptions.

I have a somewhat different perspective on this. I dont know if youre at all familiar with eckhart tolle, but he looks at thinking as illness. Not that there is anything wrong with thinking itself but humanity has become lost in thought. Its this constant, repetitive, mental chatter that keeps mankind from evolving. The purpose of religion is to help us get in touch with the stillness of our being that precedes thought. The forgetfulness of this stillness, in which great peace can be found, is the cause of untold human suffering.

Thats why Buddhists say Buddhism is like a raft. You use a raft to cross a river, but you dont carry it around with you everywhere after that, it served its purpose. The purpose of religion is to realign us (thats what the word religion means, realignment) with the core of our beings. We can eliminate religion once weve done that but if we ignore the growth of our souls and focus solely on intellectual growth, we will remain imprisoned by our own belief systems, whether they be religious or scientific or what have you. Jesus said no one who did not enter the kingdom of God as a little child, could not enter. Of course he was describing this need to get back to that original state we came into the world in before we built up a complicated conceptual framework and then started to filter everything we percieved through that framework. Knowing the pre-thought state gives us perspective and anyone who truly values free thought, should strive to know what lies beyond/before thought as well.

So I hope this helps you to see that your viewpoints on religion are just your viewpoints based on what you have experienced in your life up until this time. Other people have much different viewpoints and even your own viewpoints could change over time. Of course the more rigid your thinking (and thinking religion is always negative is a rigid way of thinking) the less likely your viewpoints are to evolve and expand.

You say things like the "arbitrary asceticism of buddhists" as if it is a bad thing. How do you know it is a bad thing? How do you know that it did not serve to help those buddhists who practiced it to overcome unpleasant cravings for sensual pleasures that do not lead to lasting satisfaction? Maybe it did, maybe  it didn't but what makes you the one who gets to decide what is good for others?


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: Deviate]
    #18827181 - 09/11/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My friend you're not looking past the fact that your precious religions are all built on assumptions, assumptions without evidence.

That and its arbitrary laws / asceticism, mythology like Bardos and Revelations. There is no way you can argue past the fact that there isn't a verifiable foundation for any of this, especially that there is something wrong with thinking. Base assumptions which rely entirely on faith.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The philosphical, psychological, sociological and spiritual consequences of enlightened awareness [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18827838 - 09/11/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No, no I am not looking past that at all. That was an important part of my point. All human belief systems contain unverifiable assumptions.

I just explained this in a thread in the other forum actually. Lets take atheistic thought for instance. Rather than putting their faith in God, atheists tend to put their faith in human reason, the intellect, or what they call the scientific method. Of course, the scientific method is not a thing in itself, rather it is a process for gaining knowledge about the world. But can a rock use the scientific method to learn about the world? Of course not. The scientific method itself, requires an intellect. Therefore, the scientific method is a function of the intellect.

Now, let us assume for a moment that the claims made by religion are true. Let's assume that human beings have another way of gathering information aside from the intellect, almost like another sense you might say. This extra sense works in a different way from the intellect, it's almost like a right brain left brain dichotomy. Our society is left brain dominated. If it cant be expressed in words, it doesn't exist. So we are conditioned to look at the world through the lens of the intellect. But what if this lens was coloring the way we saw everything and we didn't even realize it?

Trying to prove that the intellect is the only valid way to know through intellectual arguments is like trying to prove that the Bible is true using the Bible. If there is something beyond the intellect, then by very definition it cannot be apprehended by the intellect.

Those of us who have begun to awaken spiritually, have discovered something of interest within us that existed prior to our intellectual development and continues to exist even when the functioning of the intellect is suspended. This "higher power" which is actually what enables the intellect to function, is personified as the star character in many religions. These claims are inherently unverifiable from the standpoint of the intellect. You can never know God through the intellect, yet atheists never stop trying and never stop looking for Him where they will never find Him while often refusing to even consider looking elsewhere.

To try to "prove" any of this, would already be to bow down to the almighty intellect having faith that it is the ultimate standard of truth and falsehood.

Religious and spiritual people have chosen to put their faith in a higher power, whereas most atheists have chosen to put their faith in the human intellect. Both positions require faith, as neither can prove itself.

All I know is that, that I find peace in the stillness of my being without constant mental chatter weighing on my mind. I also find that by abiding in this stillness, free from thoughts and concepts and conditioning, I gain a "new" (really old) pers[ecto


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