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InvisibleAleon
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Making Double-Extracts * 1
    #18814337 - 09/08/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, i have been soaking reishi, turkey tail, and lions mane in %95 alcohol for 1.5 months.  I am going to be making the second part of the double extract soon, but i had a few questions: What temperature and duration of time is the best for hot water extracts?  I have read some places to bring to a boil for 2-4 hours; others have said 90-95C (just under boiling) for 2 hours.  Anyone seen any scientific documents stating the optimal temp/duration for hot water extract?  Is it possible to "boil out" some of the constituents because of too high a temp? I find when drinking and making teas that ones i left just under boiling were not as bitter tasting as ones I let fully boil (bitterness meaning more constituents).  Can anyone shed some more light on this topic?

Also what is the best way to squeeze all the liquid out of the mushrooms (marc) after soaking?  I have read cheesecloth and your hands will work, but i was thinking of trying to use my centrifuge juicer.


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18816611 - 09/08/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Only thing I have been able to find is boil/simmer for two hours also.  I haven't been able to dig up any scientific papers on the subject but am still looking.

I understand Forrester makes Ganoderma tinctures and might be of some help here.

EDIT

From: "The Fungal Pharmacy" by: Robert Rogers Pg. 171:

"Weigh chopped fungus and add five times the amount, by volume, of 95 percent ethanol.  For example, use 100 grams to 500 milliliters of liquid.  Let this sit for two weeks. Strain and squeeze reserving the marc.  Then make a one-to-twenty decoction of the marc at a slow simmer. Reduce by half. Combine 30 percent alcohol with 70 percent decoction for a 30 percent extract. Easy! This recipe may be used with any of the medicinal polypores."

Dosage: 5-to-10 milliliters three times per day.



Edited by OICU812 (09/08/13 09:59 PM)


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OfflineJeff
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18816755 - 09/08/13 08:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

From "Mushrooms for Health"...
"Cook uncovered for two or more hours at just under boiling.  (190-200 F).  For woody species or when coarsely chopped simmer overnight."


--------------------
Myco-tek


Edited by Jeff (09/08/13 09:09 PM)


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Offlinenanncee
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Jeff]
    #18816779 - 09/08/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

One of the authors I follow who specializes in natural healing and natural antibiotics recommends all hot water extracts get at least 4 hours at just under boil, longer if possible. I usually try to do mine 10-12 hours. It's amazing the color that comes out of it after multiple water extractions.


--------------------
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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: nanncee]
    #18817934 - 09/09/13 06:31 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for all the info guys.  I'm still curios as to why some people say to exract at just under a boil? Can constituents be boiled out?  I'm going to try the tea experiment again.  Today I'll make reishi tea just under a boil and tomorrow I'll make it at boiling.  Am I right to assume that more flavor/bitterness in the tea = more constituents extracted?  I know its low tech, but this is the way most foods are, the more intense the flavor ( when comparing 2 different apples for example) the more nutrients are in said food.

I'm very interested in making this the best I possibly can as I have been doing this whole process in a commercial kitchen and will probably sell 2 oz amber dropper bottles of the extract.


--------------------
Mushroom medicines available at:
www.swordandshieldwellness.com


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Offlinenanncee
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18818146 - 09/09/13 08:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Thanks for all the info guys.  I'm still curios as to why some people say to exract at just under a boil? Can constituents be boiled out?  I'm going to try the tea experiment again.  Today I'll make reishi tea just under a boil and tomorrow I'll make it at boiling.  Am I right to assume that more flavor/bitterness in the tea = more constituents extracted?  I know its low tech, but this is the way most foods are, the more intense the flavor ( when comparing 2 different apples for example) the more nutrients are in said food.

I'm very interested in making this the best I possibly can as I have been doing this whole process in a commercial kitchen and will probably sell 2 oz amber dropper bottles of the extract.




From my understanding a hard boil for long periods has the potential to destroy some of the good compounds. But I have never seen a scientific study proving this. I think you are right on with the bitterness though.

Good idea on selling this stuff. I have been giving this a consideration as well. It's a weekly thing at market for people to ask us if we sell reishi already extracted because they don't want to take the hassle of doing so. Do you know if there are any regulations other than commercial kitchen? This is one thing I have not looked into yet and the one real thing holding us back from doing this.


--------------------
I am a small scale farmer, come check out what we do. www.facebook.com/biocentricbros

Check out our Youtube videos. www.youtube.com/biocentricbros


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: nanncee]
    #18818214 - 09/09/13 09:03 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I've read so many sources say different things on this.  And like nanncee said, there never seems to be much scientific backing on any of it (at least what I read, maybe there is some)  The only study I've actually ran across was with chaga and it was found to be ineffective when only steeped and not boiled.  (I'm just going by memory, I could look it up again, it's in Christopher Hobbs Medicinal Mushrooms)

I think the thing is, there's so many different compounds in the mushrooms, and they're going to have different properties.  Some of them might be lost in a full strength boil, but other good ones might not be extracted if you don't boil.  I personally do a full-on boil for an hour to two hours, because it seems like more things I've read lean towards that.  I'd rather risk some obscure compound being lost than not extracting important ones, and the extract I've done this way has already proven very helpful for my wife in treating several symptoms, so it doesn't seem to me like I'm losing much by doing a full boil.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18831273 - 09/12/13 06:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I appreciate the info.  I think im going to do both :ooo:  When making the hot water extract im going to do 2 separate batches of water and mix them together.  First batch cook at 90-95C for hours.  Then strain out the marc and set aside 1st h2o extract; then put the marc in fresh h2o and full boil for hours.  Then mix the 2.  This way if different things are extracted at different temps i will get both.  This is what i do now with my teas.  The first cup i drink is from 90-95C; the second cup i fully boiled it.


--------------------
Mushroom medicines available at:
www.swordandshieldwellness.com


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Offlinenanncee
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18831549 - 09/12/13 08:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
I appreciate the info.  I think im going to do both :ooo:  When making the hot water extract im going to do 2 separate batches of water and mix them together.  First batch cook at 90-95C for hours.  Then strain out the marc and set aside 1st h2o extract; then put the marc in fresh h2o and full boil for hours.  Then mix the 2.  This way if different things are extracted at different temps i will get both.  This is what i do now with my teas.  The first cup i drink is from 90-95C; the second cup i fully boiled it.




that's not a bad idea, may have to try that on my next batch. Keep us updated if you end up doing this and selling it, really interested to see how that goes.


--------------------
I am a small scale farmer, come check out what we do. www.facebook.com/biocentricbros

Check out our Youtube videos. www.youtube.com/biocentricbros


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18832053 - 09/12/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
I appreciate the info.  I think im going to do both :ooo:  When making the hot water extract im going to do 2 separate batches of water and mix them together.  First batch cook at 90-95C for hours.  Then strain out the marc and set aside 1st h2o extract; then put the marc in fresh h2o and full boil for hours.  Then mix the 2.  This way if different things are extracted at different temps i will get both.  This is what i do now with my teas.  The first cup i drink is from 90-95C; the second cup i fully boiled it.




That sounds like a great way to do it.  I might give that a shot for my next one :thumbup:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18832154 - 09/12/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Im going to be making it in the next couple of days; ill post pics of the final product when bottle and labeled.


--------------------
Mushroom medicines available at:
www.swordandshieldwellness.com


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18832267 - 09/12/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OICU812 said:
Only thing I have been able to find is boil/simmer for two hours also.  I haven't been able to dig up any scientific papers on the subject but am still looking.

I understand Forrester makes Ganoderma tinctures and might be of some help here.

EDIT

From: "The Fungal Pharmacy" by: Robert Rogers Pg. 171:

"Weigh chopped fungus and add five times the amount, by volume, of 95 percent ethanol.  For example, use 100 grams to 500 milliliters of liquid.  Let this sit for two weeks. Strain and squeeze reserving the marc.  Then make a one-to-twenty decoction of the marc at a slow simmer. Reduce by half. Combine 30 percent alcohol with 70 percent decoction for a 30 percent extract. Easy! This recipe may be used with any of the medicinal polypores."

Dosage: 5-to-10 milliliters three times per day.





i have used this recipe and it is A GOOD ONE although i would suggest if you are planning on marketing this product and selling it in bottles, to proof it up a bit to provide longer shelf life.  most commercial 2x tinctures are 37 to 45% alcohol.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18835885 - 09/13/13 07:29 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the tip.  The tincture i have from eclectic institute is only %25 alcohol and they are a larger company.  I think im going to go with %30 alcohol.  How did you strain the tincture from the marc?


--------------------
Mushroom medicines available at:
www.swordandshieldwellness.com


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18836612 - 09/13/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

muslim which is very fine cheese cloth  you can ring it out.  Ideally you would use an herb press, but they are expensive.


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18842818 - 09/14/13 11:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

I have created a small spreadsheet in XLS format to help when creating Double Extracts.  This spreadsheet allows you to enter the percentage of alcohol used in the first extract and the desired alcohol percentage when you blend the alcohol extract with the water extract.  It will calculate the amount of extract water to add to achieve the desired alcohol percentage and also the final volume of the finished extract. 

You are free to use, share, enjoy and suggest changes.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18843746 - 09/15/13 08:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Nice, thanks for the spreadsheet calculator.  It works well, and makes it very easy.  Nothing big, but i would prefer all measurements in metric.  It so much easier to work with; for anything.

One other thing about the alcohol extract potency.  SO according to the fungal pharmacy recipe 100g dried mush --> 500ml alcohol did not work for me.  It was not enough to cover the mushrooms. So i ended up doing 100g to 1L ratio.  Once strained should i allow the alcohol to evaporate off, leaving 1\2 of the original tincture?  I am just worried at the 1 to 10 ratio i used that it will reduce potency of the final product.  Anyone have any tips/info on ratios of dry mush to alcohol?


--------------------
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www.swordandshieldwellness.com


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18844126 - 09/15/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Nice, thanks for the spreadsheet calculator.  It works well, and makes it very easy.  Nothing big, but i would prefer all measurements in metric.  It so much easier to work with; for anything.




Column E has the milliliter conversion of column C, but I will mod to give the choice of entering values in ML or OZ. Thanks.

Quote:

Aleon said:One other thing about the alcohol extract potency.  SO according to the fungal pharmacy recipe 100g dried mush --> 500ml alcohol did not work for me.  It was not enough to cover the mushrooms. So i ended up doing 100g to 1L ratio.  Once strained should i allow the alcohol to evaporate off, leaving 1\2 of the original tincture?  I am just worried at the 1 to 10 ratio i used that it will reduce potency of the final product.  Anyone have any tips/info on ratios of dry mush to alcohol?




If you do that, don't forget to calculate the extra water that will be left behind from the original volume of alcohol and reduce the added water extract accordingly.

BTW, I had to do the same thing, but I figured I would just take 10 milliliters three times per day instead of 5.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


Edited by OICU812 (09/15/13 11:15 AM)


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18844179 - 09/15/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

one question. When you are covering the reishi with alcohol, are you starting with fresh or dried reishi? if it's dry, wont it absorb the alcohol and bring the level down until it's not covered anymore? add more alcohol at that point, or just shake it everyday?


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: deadmandave]
    #18844286 - 09/15/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Once strained should i allow the alcohol to evaporate off, leaving 1\2 of the original tincture? 



I wouldn't just let it evaporate that is unless you used 100% alcohol.  You'll lose water and alcohol and at different rates.  I would think that would make it difficult to calculate the % alcohol in your end product.  Do like OIC did or maybe a less aggressive squeeze when straining the alcohol and reduce it out during your boil.
Quote:

deadmandave said:
one question. When you are covering the reishi with alcohol, are you starting with fresh or dried reishi? if it's dry, wont it absorb the alcohol and bring the level down until it's not covered anymore? add more alcohol at that point, or just shake it everyday?



Start with dry.  It is hard or dang near impossible to calculate the final ratios otherwise.
It does absorb but does so fairly quick. You need to keep it covered otherwise it will mold.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18844338 - 09/15/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
SO according to the fungal pharmacy recipe 100g dried mush --> 500ml alcohol did not work for me.  It was not enough to cover the mushrooms. So i ended up doing 100g to 1L ratio.




100g per 1L is what I use every time as well.  Works great for G. lucidum, G. tsugae, and G. applanatum.  Chaga you can use more like 180g/L if you powder it pretty well.  Stuff is heavy, and doesn't expand when wet like some Ganodermas.

Jeff that's a good point about evaporation, losing alcohol as well as water at unknown rates.  That's why I've never messed with evaporating it.  Even if you did have 100% ethanol, I think it might end up absorbing some unknown amount of water from the air, although I could be wrong on this I'm not much of a chemist.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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