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Truth Seeker Registered: 09/01/13 Posts: 20 Loc: Illinois Last seen: 9 years, 1 month |
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No matter how open minded someone is, or how many times they claim to not believe in anything for whatever reason, they still have beliefs by which they operate. A major, important difference is some people have valid or understandable reason for their beliefs while some do not even have an understanding or reasoning of their own. I believe I do have valid reason for mine, but I'll never stop being open minded and stop to think about and consider another persons beliefs or view points.
1. Bibliology: I believe the Bible I read from is pure and true, from the first word in Genesis until the last word in Revelations. People's thinking and interpretations are often flawed, but not the Bible. The Bible also has power in it. I believe we can find advice from God for every situation and thing we encounter here on Earth. 2. Theology Proper: I believe God is good, and only wants good for us. He doesn't want to be the vain puppet master so many make Him out to be, so He gave us free will. I believe He is actively trying to help us and show us the way to Salvation and eternal happiness, we are just "asleep" and brainwashed by our culture, and wrapped up in our selves therefor we don't see Him or maybe even allow Him to be in our everyday life. 3. Christology: I believe Jesus Christ is God's Son and was born by a virgin and conquered death. He and His Father are one. I can't even begin to understand this, but maybe Jesus is an easier part of God for us Humans to comprehend and so God is also Jesus so we can accept God. 4. Pheunmatology: I believe the Holy Spirit is Gods gift to us Christians to help actively guide us in the life on earth. It is part of God that Humans can't comprehend, but hopefully when we get in heaven we can. The Holy Spirit is something you can feel when he moves you, when experienced it's unmistakable. I believe when your going on the right path he really leads you or when your going on the wrong path he really tries to lead you, but maybe not so much when your lukewarm. 5. Anthropology: I believe God never wanted to be a vain, puppet master therefor He gave us free will. Because we are made in God's image we are inherently good, but because we are all born into sin we are equally inherently bad. We just have to choose which one we want to be since we are not puppets. 6. Soterology: I believe the only thing we have to do to accept God's gift of Salvation is to chose to be on God's side, by confessing with our mouth that he is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, just as the Bible says. Now I personally feel the need to give up my body and soul for God, and I will do that and give up and go wherever He calls me. If we decide later to reject Christ's gift then we can "lose" our salvation, just as you can wear a nice shirt with the tag tucked in, and return it without really "owning" the shirt; in a way they never really obtained that salvation. (Now once you die and are in heaven, you can't take that shirt back!) 7. Ecclesiology: I believe the Church is supposed to represent Jesus and do His work as best they can, as He no longer walks this Earth in flesh. The Church should be doing their best to save the souls of others, and urgently loving non believers unconditionally as Christ does us. Our purpose here on Earth is to save the souls of God's people and to encourage those losing faith, and to NOT BE DISTRACTED BY EARTHLY THINGS, STATUS, AND SUCCESS. 8. Eschatology: I'm not really sure what I believe or the order of events or what exactly happens. But I think Christians will be raptured, then the tribulation when sinners can repent and be saved by God, and if they die or make it until the end of the tribulation till the Second coming then they too can receive salvation. Then we will have the new perfect Earth God's word talks about. All in all, I believe if you have a love for God, and try your best to understand him and worship Him then you will be saved. God knows the heart of His people. He knows we don't understand Him fully, but He doesn't ask us to. I'm really looking forward to meeting and getting to know my creator who has such an incredible love for me. I hope each day I learn to love and serve Him more and more! Edited by HannahMichelle (09/08/13 08:56 PM)
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𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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Quote: I think that is true if, you only consider a single perspective. (Your own perspective) Have you ever really considered someone else's perspective seriously? I mean actually try to see how they are seeing, without looking for differences from your view. Nice write-up though, looks like you put a lot of thought into it. My personal perspective that I normally choose to adhere to is the logical and rational one, that puts reason above belief. I think yours puts belief above reason. Not that it matters if we all want what best, and look past our differences and focus on our sameness. We can all have Jesus in our hearts, if we believe in Jesus or not. (imo) It might be cool to try to put reason above belief once in a while. Just to practice having an open mind. Edited by teknix (09/08/13 11:22 PM)
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Squatchin Registered: 04/01/13 Posts: 1,015 Last seen: 4 years, 2 months |
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Edited by Yogi1 (09/09/13 11:22 AM)
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lit pants tit licker Registered: 08/09/07 Posts: 21,088 Loc: georgia, us Last seen: 5 years, 1 month |
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I agree with your post, OP. I too read the Bible and learn a lot from it, and believe in its inherent truth. However, sometimes in the Bible I come across something that, no matter how hard I try, I cannot synch with. A disharmony arises. In that case, I just keep an open mind, and allow the words to 'work their magic' in my mind and heart, trusting that they will find a place if I allow them to.
Yeah, the most important thing is to focus on a oneness with God and and openness to that. God/Jah will guide you quite obviously if you are able to perceive the love and energy, the cosmic blessing
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--=..Did Adam and ...?=-- Registered: 04/30/03 Posts: 3,910 Loc: isle de la muerte Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours |
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Incredibly bullshit post by OP.
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lit pants tit licker Registered: 08/09/07 Posts: 21,088 Loc: georgia, us Last seen: 5 years, 1 month |
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thanks for your contribution, eve69
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Registered: 04/04/08 Posts: 3,586 Loc: New England Last seen: 1 year, 12 days |
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Quote: Only the awakened have deliberate beliefs. Edited by NastyDHL (09/09/13 12:37 PM)
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--=..Did Adam and ...?=-- Registered: 04/30/03 Posts: 3,910 Loc: isle de la muerte Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours |
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Quote: She has not a belief but a hundred separate beliefs all of which are contradictory. I imagine this thread is more of a sounding out for her than a positive statement of what she actually thinks. What she thinks is momentary, as it is for all of us. The terms of our beliefs change. She is young, and hasn't experienced much, or her beliefs wouldn't be so all or nothing. Therefore since it is merely her belief way station before actually experiencing life they are bullshit. To her they may mean something, but for me, they merely sound like a young Christian thinker trying to actually have an individual thought. It's very difficult for them. This statement of her Christianity is posited as something alongside having an open mind. That is patent bullshit. She has no room for any other consideration than what white bread religious teachings she has eaten her fill of. There's no more room. Why does she even talk about having an open mind then talking all that specious Bible bullshit. Good is good, Jesus is truth, the Bible is the word of God. What a fucking crock of shit.
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lit pants tit licker Registered: 08/09/07 Posts: 21,088 Loc: georgia, us Last seen: 5 years, 1 month |
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she's not using writing to reinforce her belief system any more than you are. and after reading that I found it to be a bit more reflective than your typical "white bread christianity," whatever that means. maybe you mean people who watch t.v. evangelicals or something, or just 'conservatives' in general. you know just because someone comes off to you as being more naive or something, doesn't mean you can afford not to take them seriously. even if they are like 8 years old...
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--=..Did Adam and ...?=-- Registered: 04/30/03 Posts: 3,910 Loc: isle de la muerte Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours |
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You know what white bread Christianity is - it is the force of Christian religion which tells us if we don't worship Jesus were doomed - I need not for a second remind you of that
I reread the op post and I understand it even less now. I don't get this thread. What is it really about?
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 2 days |
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I don't need to burst your bubble. Provided that you continue to seek instead of stultify, your own discoveries will burst that belief-bubble all by yourself. Every Christian theological aspect that you mentioned has much earlier sources. The very construction of the New Testament can be illustrated to you on two important levels: the Jewish liturgical level, and the original stories of healing and resurrection in the Egyptian Pyramid texts and Coffin Texts. In fact, if you Really want to understand how the NT was constructed, you must be willing to deconstruct it - not by the apparently opposing instrument of reason, but by hermeneutical means, by demythologization, and by comparative theology with earlier sources.
I graduated from a reputable United Methodist seminary at Drew University in 1978, but it wasn't until the early 2000s until I discovered the work of Rev. John Shelby Spong. I have since has 3 occasions to speak with him. Of the dozen of Spong's books, I recommend just one: Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes. More recently, I discovered a book that goes even further back in time to Egyptian sources, copiously documented: Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection. I'm not daring you here, but I am saying that if you want a greater balanced between reason and faith, you will read Spong's book. And if you want to see just what earlier writings were lifted almost verbatim to construct the numerous stories of miracles, healing, and resurrections in the NT, you will discover that "there are no new things under the sun." Your understanding of the importance of myth will expand, and you will be freer and less determined from psychological, social, and cultural determinants of behavior that keep you parroting the bylines of mere tradition. Tradtion does not equal Truth. You decide what you want most. ![]() -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Ascended Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 5,401 Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours |
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wow
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Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant Registered: 07/23/05 Posts: 1,032 Loc: From the Stars |
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Quote: Just wanted to reply so I could mark it in my threads, and remember to look at them thar books. -------------------- What's wrong with folks? Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs. Mush Porn
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Truth Seeker Registered: 09/01/13 Posts: 20 Loc: Illinois Last seen: 9 years, 1 month |
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Post deleted by HannahMichelle
Reason for deletion: I want to word it better as my anwer was in the quote
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Ascended Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 5,401 Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours |
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Humpty dumpty sat on a wall...
And all the... They couldn't put him back together again. Be warned.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: What was your real motivation behind this post? Was it to advertise books? To convert her to your belief system? I know you are familiar with Ramana Maharshi. He says we are already miserable with the knowledge that we have, why look for more knowledge? So that we can be even more miserable? He also says (speaking of the path to realization) the simple man is content with worship. FOr the realized man, there is no problem. The only problem is for the bookworms. There is nothing wrong with seeking a greater understanding of one's religion. But what troubles me about your post is the overall attitude. Here we have what appears to be a young girl, filled with a firm conviction and a strong faith. Instead of encouraging her and commending her and urging her to continue along a spiritual path in life, instead you send her off in the direction of advanced intellectual, theological and historical understanding. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with seeking such an understanding if that is what you desire. But in my humble opinion, that is not the first thing that should be emphasized. I personally feel like you would do her much better service by encouraging her along the path of love for Yahweh that Jesus taught. Love is far more important than advanced understanding of the scriptures. You don't need to know all that stuff that you know. The Christian life is a life of building up virtues, avoiding vice and growing in love for God and surrendering oneself to him. As Ramana Maharshi says, love for God and faith in Him fixes all things. He constantly reminded people to lay down their intellects and turn their attention within, in search of the source. Why seek so much knowledge when all one really needs to know can be summed up in a few paragraphs? Why is the Bible so long? It states the truth over and over in so many ways in order that it may sink in better. But the truth itself, is very simple. So why not point youngsters in the direction of the living truth instead of pointing them toward deeper intellectual understanding? It doesn't even have to be instead, you could do both. But youre emphasizing the wrong thing, in my opinion. Not everyone is like you and needs to know everything about everything. But you seem to think that everyone should be like you. You say "tradition does not equal truth". Neither does intellectual knowledge. The Imitation of Christ asks us what does it profit a man to have an intimate knowledge of the scriptures if he does not do what they say? I believe the emphases should be on practice rather than theory.
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𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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Hannah, to reason and reasoning defined this way:
Quote: Google:"define reason" Contradiction aren't considered reasonable. I think that using your beliefs as a reason is contrary to the premise, and develops closed mindedness. Take what Markos says seriously, he is an expert about this stuff. Use reason to reason. Edited by teknix (09/09/13 07:32 PM)
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Stranger Registered: 08/30/08 Posts: 103 Last seen: 10 years, 3 months |
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Greetings all! It's been years since I've been on Shroomery. I wrote on here a lot when I was a theology major in college and I'm now a Lutheran pastor. I actually stopped using this site because of disrespectful people (like a certain someone in this thread) who call other people's beliefs incredible bullshit to strengthen their own ego. But a good friend of mine thought I'd find this thread interesting and so I thought it'd be worth putting my two cents in.
I have a book by Rev. Sponge, I've also read "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography" by John Dominic Crossan who is another famous historical Jesus scholar, and a member of the Jesus Seminar. He doesn't believe in miracles or a literal resurrection and discusses a lot of the symbolism behind the stories of Jesus. Our New Testament professor had us read his book and it shook up a lot of people's faith. It was a good thing to be exposed to. To consider both sides, another good book on that subject is "The Jesus Legend" by Gregory Boyd and Paul Eddy which makes the case that the Jesus of the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) are the best case we have for the historical Jesus. Also I should say there is very little evidence to support the idea that Jesus is copied from Horus. Most people believe this because of a youtube Zeitgeist film, but the claims made in Zeitgeist are simply untrue. It is true that virgin birth stories and reports of miracles are common throughout the ancient world, but that's about it. I went through a phase where I was really interested in deconstructing the "real Jesus" but after years of studying it I've learned that we'll never know. We can study all we want and it's very interesting to try and learn as much as possible, but what I'm really into now is mysticism. So my book suggestions would be "The Cloud of Unknowing" a 14th century book on Christian mysticism by an anonymous author. Another great contemporary one is "Open Heart, Open Mind" by Trappist monk Thomas Keating. I've found that the contemplative tradition has helped me grow immensely and I recommend meditation, prayer, and community worship to my parishioners as the essential means of connecting to God and growing in faith and wisdom. As a Lutheran pastor I must say though Hannah, that it can be dangerous theology for a Christian to feel they must "choose" to believe in Christ. Martin Luther never felt like he had enough faith and it led him to extreme depression and despair, until he realized that faith is itself a gift from God. Possibly something to consider in terms of free will. Luther claimed we have choice for things below us-- like what we eat and wear; but that we have no choice with those above us--like faith in God. I still go back and forth on the issue of free will myself, but I do see faith as a gift and not a choice. My take on the issue of truth is that the Holy Spirit is at work in all religions, the Bible is inspired but not something always to be taken literally. Sometimes the biblical authors seem to not be being literal and other times its clear they are claiming certain things literally happened. Most of it depends on literary genre. Certain books of the Bible are ancient Mesopotamian legends (Genesis ch. 1-11) what a professor of mine called "truth conveyed in myth". Other books are clearly historical accounts of wars, kings, and national disasters that have little to do with theology and more the history of the Jewish people. Other books are poetry, letters, and prophetic accounts responding to the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem. Then the New Testament is the struggle to make sense of the life of Jesus, someone the authors believed changed the world and who they saw after he was killed. As you said, please do always keep an open mind. Clearly I'm coming from a Christian perspective and I'm writing here with pastoral concerns. I want to encourage you HannahMichelle to keep studying and learning as much as possible, but do remember that the essential lessons of faith, hope, and love are gifts from God. Like Jesus said: “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will" (Luke 10:21 NRSV). That verse really encouraged me when I studied so much it got confusing. Not saying it's wrong to be wise and intelligent, but the basics are about experiencing God's joy, peace, and love. I hope that is a useful contribution to this discussion. And forgive me for being long-winded! God bless!
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𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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I don't understand why Jesus is thanking himself for hiding stuff, (if he is to be considered as god)? Why would you thank god for hiding the truth, if the purpose of the bible is to teach the truth?
" “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will""
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Ascended Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 5,401 Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours |
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Quote: Truth. A good feeling doesn't fulfill those out for the Truth, Light, the Way. Its more complicated than a feeling that you are part of something. The history is important, no?, if one is to believe. In what??
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Truth Seeker Registered: 09/01/13 Posts: 20 Loc: Illinois Last seen: 9 years, 1 month |
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@eve69
"She has not a belief but a hundred separate beliefs all of which are contradictory. I imagine this thread is more of a sounding out for her than a positive statement of what she actually thinks. What she thinks is momentary, as it is for all of us. The terms of our beliefs change." Because I really AM open minded, and I don't want to be believing in the Bible if it's not true; I would like to know why you think what I wrote contradicts itself? If my thinking is obviously so flawed that even you can see it through this small doctrinal statement, you should easily be able to point out to me! I'm very willing to consider every possible angle and opinion. Yes, what I think MAY VERY WELL be momentary, but it also may not be. Hopefully they change into a stronger belief. "She is young, and hasn't experienced much, or her beliefs wouldn't be so all or nothing. Therefore since it is merely her belief way station before actually experiencing life they are bullshit. To her they may mean something, but for me, they merely sound like a young Christian thinker trying to actually have an individual thought. It's very difficult for them." Are you all knowing? Do you now the future? You say I wrote bullshit, but your over here trying to predict the future of a person whom you have never met... Just saying. I personally don't find it difficult to have an indivisual thought.I wrote this because I wanted to a.) share with you all which may be exactly what you needed to hear. b.) Hear your opinion, and get maybe get lucky with hearing truth from someone else. Must be valid and reasonable though. "This statement of her Christianity is posited as something alongside having an open mind. That is patent bullshit. She has no room for any other consideration than what white bread religious teachings she has eaten her fill of. There's no more room. Why does she even talk about having an open mind then talking all that specious Bible bullshit. Good is good, Jesus is truth, the Bible is the word of God. " Like I said above, I have plenty of room to consider every belief of someone, just give me the reasons you believe what you believe so I can actually BEGIN and ATTEMPT to consider it. May I ask what DO you believe? And why? Please enlighten me. "What a fucking crock of shit." I believe everything I do because of reasoning. I have must have a reason for something, otherwise, why would I believe. I'm dissecting my beliefs and other possible beliefs to com down to the most plausible conclusion. Even though we obviously disagree, I do value your posts and you have given me a little to consider. Please give me more reason on why you believe what you do, and what it is that you believe. Thanks homieeee. (:
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 2 days |
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Here we have what appears to be a young girl, filled with a firm conviction and a strong faith. Instead of encouraging her and commending her and urging her to continue along a spiritual path in life, instead you send her off in the direction of advanced intellectual, theological and historical understanding.
And you would not encourage her to grow in faith, but have her retain an understanding that is as ill-fitting as her grade school clothes?! This is what you criticize? Shame on you. I personally feel like you would do her much better service by encouraging her along the path of love for Yahweh that Jesus taught. Here's a book and a newsflash for you. The Father of the New Testament is never once referred to by the transliterated YHVH that you used. In fact, phenomenologically, The Father as a benign parent has nothing in common with that irrascible and capricious mountain deity that takes that name after the creation (from the Elohim) in Genesis. There are several very important divine names in the Tenach, none of which are picked up by the NT writers. Many Gnostic Christians tried to explain this major difference in God with a host of bizarre mythologies, but at least they took their blinders off and acknowledged the obviously blatant contradictions in God concepts. You are overlooking some profound changes that occurred historically. I am not a biblical scholar, but I know enough to point out important teachers in this domain. Clearly, the fundamentalist trend is lunacy, imposed ignorance, violent, oppressive, and nothing like original Christianity was in its variety before Nicaea, and the canonical Bible that suppressed the rich variety of perspectives on Christ. Love is far more important than advanced understanding of the scriptures. You don't need to know all that stuff that you know. The Christian life is a life of building up virtues, avoiding vice and growing in love for God and surrendering oneself to him. (1) I did not write these scholarly books. All I did was read them and evaluate their worth for anyone who wants to mature in their Christian faith instead of abandoning their faith altogether because their understanding remained childish in an adult being and it didn't fit anymore. (2) Nobody will develop mature spiritual virtues based on an understanding of scriptures that were designed for illiterate peasants of two millennia ago, or very young children. So stop looking at this as what I personally know. If you read these two books, you would know what I know about them. "Not everyone is like you and needs to know everything about everything. But you seem to think that everyone should be like you." -> "I believe the emphases should be on practice rather than theory." Take your own advice. There is no practice unless one is on firm ground, or else one is building their house upon shifting sands, as the biblical metaphor goes. Like Saint Paul says in Romans 1:13: "Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren..." I am an educator, someone is expressing ideas that could be understood in ways that greatly reconciles faith with reason, instead of the obvious discontinuity that happens when mythos is mistaken for historicity. It's called a teaching moment, and it may never come again. Look at how many Shroomerites have thrown the baby Jesus out with the bathwater because they never kept up with more and more intelligent, modern, and adult understandings of biblical material. You must find it charming in a young woman to see the faith of an innocent, but in a few years, after a few trips, or after the world has begun to creep into her young soul and she abandons her faith, it will be due to opinions like yours not mine that will be at fault. I still maintain a faith along with reason and the value of logical methodologies, scientific and/or phenomenological. I still have a prayer life at age 60, but I know good and well what happens when you don't change the garments of childhood. They burst at the seams and fall away, just as a childish belief system does. Lastly, Advaita philosophy is strictly Hindu monism, not biblical monotheism. And whereas I am read in that area, I do not see any point in importing so alien a religious construct into your criticism of my post. Talk about confusion! Comparative religion has long been an intellectual interest for me, and obviously you find value in Advaita yourself. Does mention of this hold any clarification for the young lady in question? I think not. I can handle comparative metaphysics, but it doesn't have any relevance for someone you feel you have stepped up to defend. Sorry, but putting those two books out there is a whole lot better IMO than responding with a "That's nice dear" kind of thing. I'd rather appear pedantic or pretentious than patronizing.
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/09/13 11:25 PM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: No, the history really isn't particularly important. God is not to be found in books. The wise look for Him within. Plenty of wisdom can be gleamed from the Bible without reading every damn book spiritual nerds like markgosthegnostic obsess over. Certainly if you feel the need to study the history and you feel like an expanded understanding of scripture and the precise context in which it was created would benefit you, by all means, learn what you can. But you should not fall into the trap of believing that that is necessary for you to progress spiritually. Endless book learning does little in my experience. I recommend spending more time in prayer and meditation, rather than study. A couple of books I do recommend though, are the Imitation of Christ and the Interior Castle. Neither of these has anything to do with history or the interpretation of scripture, furthering my point that such study is not necessary for one to progress spiritually.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Lets look at the spirituality of st. teresa of avila. She was a humble nun who was entirely faithful to the catholic church. Did she lose her faith because it was childish or incompatible with reason? No. She progressed in prayer and wrote the interior castle. Do you think she read the books you mentioned? Thats my point. Its not necessary. And this point goes beyond me thinking the faith of a young woman is charming. You do this in every thread it seems, you just did it to me with the Jesus Yahweh thing. My current understanding is obvious not good enough, I must read this book you recommend. There is nothing wrong with furthering ones knowledge. I have been doing it for years already. The problem is, it never ends. You cant know everything and not everyone can become a bliblical scholar. Its just not practical to expect people to reach the same level of education in these matters that you have. I do appreciate your expertise, you are one of the most informative posters on these forums, if not the most imformative. I just think you tend to go overboard with your desire to educate sometimes. Does that make sense? Edited by Deviate (09/09/13 11:53 PM)
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Stranger Registered: 08/30/08 Posts: 103 Last seen: 10 years, 3 months |
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The spiritual journey is less about gaining more and more knowledge, and more about pealing away the layers and layers of one's false self (at the core of which true wisdom is found).
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Ascended Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 5,401 Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours |
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Couldn't you peal at layers with knowledge...??
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: That's what I am saying. There is plenty of spiritual food for the soul in the Holy Bible as it is, even without the aid of being a Biblical scholar. If one would take just a few principles the Bible teaches and fully integrate them into their lives, they would make more progress than years of academic study affords. Gaining knowledge often further entangles one in ego. The truly blessed remain in the simple state that comes before knowledge. That is why I must disagree with saying read this or read that so you understand the scriptures as well as i do. No, just abide in truth. THat is all one must do. Or as Jesus puts it "remain in my love". For some people, this involves a great deal of intellectual study. THis is often the case for heavily intellectual or scientifically minded souls. But there are also artistic emotional type souls. These souls can feel their way home to God without all the intellectual banter. They are deeply in tune with their feelings and intuition and simply hearing about Jesus's love as taught by almost any church, is sufficient for them to learn to to tune into it.
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--=..Did Adam and ...?=-- Registered: 04/30/03 Posts: 3,910 Loc: isle de la muerte Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours |
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Quote:
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hookers and blackjack Registered: 09/16/12 Posts: 12,666 Loc: Canada |
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You are allowed to believe in anything you want. It is illogical to believe in anything yet I still believe in love and myself. I still have beliefs like you said. If prayer and believing you go to heaven makes you sleep at night go for it. I don't have enough evidence to tell you not to. Still as said earlier I feel the bible is just a distraction to opening yourself up and living completely in the moment. If you were to live in the moment you'd have no beliefs. You wouldn't care about what happened 30 seconds ago let alone 2000 years ago. To live purely in the moment means to truly find yourself. Pure and utter existence.
That's what meditation is for. Freedoms means I don't tell you what to do and you don't tell me what to do. If the bible tells you to love jesus and to stone your kid for thinking about other gods are you actually given freedom? Real freedom would also be found in the moment In conclusion I believe in the moment which is myself. -------------------- Improve your sterile techniques! (A comprehensive guide to agar) Links upon links of literally EVERYTHING UP TO DATE AMU Q&A No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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lit pants tit licker Registered: 08/09/07 Posts: 21,088 Loc: georgia, us Last seen: 5 years, 1 month |
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Quote: yeah but book knowledge only goes so far. scholar's aren't necessarily writing about the kind of shit that's been influencing our minds from a young age, shit that's very obvious and yet at the same time not so obvious. at a certain point, the things holding us back aren't individuated, they are big concepts holding ALL of us back as a generation and a species.
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Squatchin Registered: 04/01/13 Posts: 1,015 Last seen: 4 years, 2 months |
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lit pants tit licker Registered: 08/09/07 Posts: 21,088 Loc: georgia, us Last seen: 5 years, 1 month |
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thats funny and all but seriously...do you really need to post shit like that in a spirituality forum? come on man..
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Squatchin Registered: 04/01/13 Posts: 1,015 Last seen: 4 years, 2 months |
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Quote: Seeing as how this is vague philosophy I figured it could take my honest impression upon viewing. Some of the shit posted on this forum is ![]() Tis philosophy, and philosophy is simply irrelevant mind chatter from egos. In this case I could give the OP a "duh" Again, not spirituality or mysticism. I will cease to shit on it when it moves to the shitty psychology and philosophy forum.
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 2 days |
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Lets look at the spirituality of st. teresa of avila. She was a humble nun who was entirely faithful to the catholic church. Did she lose her faith because it was childish or incompatible with reason? No. She progressed in prayer and wrote the interior castle. Do you think she read the books you mentioned?
This is an absurd conclusion, considering that she lived and died centuries before these books existed. I must read this book you recommend. Look at your interpretation. I recommend a couple of excellent books, you turn my recommendation into an imperative ("I must"). Its just not practical to expect people to reach the same level of education in these matters that you have. I have NO expectations of anyone here beyond myself. I am not a John Spong, a Marcus Borg, a Bart Ehrman, a Karen King, or an Elaine Pagels. The last two are Harvard and Princeton scholars, respectively. These people are the true biblical scholars at present. All I have done is read their books and passed on my own recommendations, for which I make no apologies. I appreciate your appreciation of my information-dissemination, I do, but no, I do not go overboard. I had a student many years ago who always complained that I wanted him to use "big words." I never actually told him that, but he simply assumed that was what I wanted him to do, because to him, I used big words. But that was just an impression he had of me. Working with junior high and middle school kids, common two-syllable words seem like "big words" to some of the immigrant kids. Years after he was in my junior high where I was counselor, I saw him in a Publix supermarket around Miami cutting up fish in their fish counter. He remembered me as the guy who wanted him to use big words. That was a projection of his. It was based on his own self-concept, not on any expectation I had for him. Clearly, he never went to college, but so what? That was not his path. "Big words" did not appeal to him, nor the concepts those words might support and convey. I am who I am, and if you feel that my recommendations don't apply to YOU, why gripe about it? Move on to someone else's post. There will be a person or two who will take my recommendations and read them. Not everyone will appreciate them equally, but if someone intends to adhere to a religion for an entire lifetime, reading a few books that will bring up their level of understanding to new heights is a valuable thing for them. I have been taking this kind of advice from people my whole life, and I appreciate it. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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--=..Did Adam and ...?=-- Registered: 04/30/03 Posts: 3,910 Loc: isle de la muerte Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours |
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Mark I think your post was excellent. I didn't get that response either.
This is why we should all stick to the same drug combinations when we wish to communicate. The reply button should really read: reply on acid reply on shrooms reply on other RC " Chronic " Heroin " Crack etc then we would know where other people were really coming from
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Stranger Registered: 09/10/13 Posts: 73 |
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I would also have to agree, it seems that deviate, is criticizing one extreme whilst pushing another. A bit contradictory. Very flawed intellectually, and philosophically.
Although to go back to the topic. I would like to ask Hannah. Do you have a religious upbringing? If so have you ever stepped out of the beliefs, in which it may be a shock and quite difficult to contemplate(Grasp) that these beliefs, no matter how true they may or may not be in the end, have been pressed upon you. Although you may feel inside the belief, it really has cam from outside first, then negating the power of the inner. Now, since there are billions of interpretations of Christ alone, how would you be able to look at your beliefs, when, in fact, in the first instance, they are not your beliefs, but from other people that has been fed to you. And this is not to say that they are false. For arguments sake they could all be positively true. But my argument is, how is it possible to consciously analyze ones beliefs that come from outwith and not within. And I can use myself as an example. As being brought up catholic, I then went against the church (Chapel), god, Jesus and the bible et al. Then as I had came to a position of wiping away all my previous influences and conditioning (And this also true for other concepts which I held since swimming out of my mothers canal), to a point, where I as sentient being, contemplated these questions on my own, from my perspective, and not from others. I am actually reading the bible, which I had never done as a "Believer" and when I speak to believers they haven’t read much of it either, rather it seems they have been spoon-fed quotes and statements from their peers and leaders. I think that it is not possible for you to have a truly open mind, if you are carrying the baggage of other peoples convictions and interpretations. And we are guilty of this on all cognitive levels, as we are hardwired this way, to pass on knowledge wisdom etc, preserving the group etc etc. But this is all relative. And it seems, especially in America and Germany, which have one major common attribute, is that they have a huge christian following, and to the inquisitive person, alot of them are just following without thinking, and to my great surprise, most aren't ready to really live like Jesus, actually I do not believe most even understand the word of Christ, as they mostly understand the interpretation of Christ that has been shown to them. Veering away. I just wanted to give a jolt to the thread, as it got caught up in theological debate around conflating positions.! -------------------- Keep both eyes closed, and one eye opened -0- Edited by oropal (09/11/13 08:35 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Quote: I think it is important to remind people to look within instead of making them think they need to gain more knowledge. That was my gripe. The spiritual path can be exceedingly difficult, especially for young people and it is important to think about how you come across with your advice. You are old and wise, having immersed yourself in this stuff for decades. It's not really my place to say and perhaps i should have just posted my own advice instead of cirtisizing yours but i feel like there was a subtle heir of superiority in your words. "my understanding of the Bible is mature and yours is not". That sort of thing. I may be wrong but I think it would be better to at least begin with some encouragement and praise for even being concerned with the growth of her soul when so many people her age (or any age ) are completely materially focused. Let me give you an example of what I mean. I have gone on many trips, experienced all different forms of crazily altered consciousess, explored many different spiritual techniques and teachings and studied about different religions. Not anywhere near to the degree you have but suffice is to say I have a much deeper experiencial knowledge of the spiritual and what I would consider a more enlightened understanding of the scriptures than your average Christian. However, a few years ago i met and made friends with a regular Christian, regular but devout. She just accepted everything the church taught her without really questioning it or looking for outside sources on the meaning of the scriptures. At first, I had a very difficult time with her approach. I kept wanting to "enighten" her and make her consider things like the possibility of reincarnation (btw, what is your take on the reason for the lack of reincarnation in Christianity?) and I could not understand how she could just accept something as true simply because a flawed instituion like the church said it was true. But over the years, i noticed something. my "superior" understanding of the spiritual path didn't seem to give me much advantage when it came to actually practicing the principles i had learned about. she often behaved more virtuously than I for example, or had stronger faith and more love and more grace. It was then I came to conclude, that at least in my own life, it was the practice of Christiany that was important and not any advanced understanding of the scriptures. There were many areas of myself which I knew need to be worked on and I found it much more productive to focus on those areas than to pursue more esoteric knowledge. For example, keeping the commandments. Just being a morally upright person was a difficult enough challenge for me. I knew the Bible said I needed to be morally upright. I did not need to read any special books to know that. I continue to find that the Bible challenges me to become a better person through the denial of my ego's neuroses. There is plenty to work on, even from a single book of the Bible and considering. In the Bible, Jesus tells us that he will give to us something very special, which he calls the holy spirit and that this special spirit, will become our teacher and teach us everything we need to know. To me, by recommending a book called "liberating the gospels" as your very first statement upon reading someone elses statement of faith, it implies to me that you think the gospels as they are, are lacking something or are too difficult to understand. This is where I feel like I disagree. While of course there is much, much more to learn about the Bible than what can be gleamed by a simple reading without a thorough study of the history, i also dont think that the bible is necessarily deficient or incomplete as it is. Of course one will not understand everything, but one can certainly understand enough to point their soul in the direction of the living God. Then the Holy Spirit takes over and the spiritual path becomes much more a process of intuition, self discipline and love, than study of ancient myths and wisdom. Thats not to say I am against study, I am always trying to learn more about Christianity and I am interested in the book about Jesus and Yahweh you recommended. I believe that studying the scriptures is very important. But my point is, there is so much to know and one cannot know it all. Therefore, we should try to remember that we can commune with God directly in prayer or meditation and this is where our real, deep learning takes place. Let me ask you this, do you really think the essence of Christ's teaching is so complicated that one must read all these books to understand it? I have enough trouble with the simple stuff, like learning to love God with all my heart and all my strength and all my mind and all my soul and my neighbor as myself. Isn't Christ's teaching very simple at heart? Where exactly is the problem with the OPs understanding?
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: There is one extreme on the spiritual path which I dont think can be over emphasized and that is the need to look within. As long as we are getting our knowledge from other people, from books, etc, regardless of how accurate it is, it is not the same as developing a keenly interned mind, or what Christians call having a personal relationship with Christ, santification, holiness, or whatever else you want to call it. Quote: Its not really possible to avoid carrying that baggage. Our thinking is so conditioned by our society on all levels in ways we dont even realize. Quote: In my opinion its not the interpretation that is the problem but the lack of zeal and perseverence on the part of the parishioners. I recently got into catholicism for instance and within the catholic tradition i have discovered an incredible wellspring of spiritual ideas, techniques, devotions, methods of prayer and deeply profound wisdom. Almost any western spiritual idea you can think of and even many ideas which resemble Buddhist and Hindu concepts, can be found somewhere within the catholic church's history. So what is wrong with the interpretation? For years I believed that mainstream Christianity was wrong and I limited my studies to gnostic, esoteric, and new age (yuck) Christianity. For some reason, I developed a bitter hatred for new age age Christianity and decided to go it from a more traditional perspective. To my surprise I found so many of the new age criticisms of orthodox christianity were just plain not true and virtually every spiritual idea I had found in new age Christianity existed in some form somewhere in orthodox christianity with only a few exceptions. Anyway, one thing I have learned is that truly following Jesus requires a full commitment on your part and involves major sacrifice. Most people do not want to sacrifice all their desires for the love of Jesus and that is why mainstream christianity looks so bad. But it is the same in just about every other religion and Christian sect. In terms of catholicism i put some of the blame on the clergy. There are many excellent priests but even more mediocre ones. Priests really need to be true followers of Christ, otehrwise you just have the blind leading the blind, as Jesus warned. But Jesus also said, he who seeks finds and I believe that Christianity provides enough of a spiritual background to serve as a launching pad for any true seeker of God. It just requiresa a lot of faith and perseverence.
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Wanderer Registered: 12/16/06 Posts: 17,853 Last seen: 7 minutes, 35 seconds |
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Quote: Cool Although I've never met someone who didn't have some understanding and plenty of reasoning for their own beliefs. You really have met someone like that? Not just someone who believed for reasons other than your own, but with a lack of reasons? -------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 2 days |
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Let me ask you this, do you really think the essence of Christ's teaching is so complicated that one must read all these books to understand it?
An unqualified NO. Christ's teaching is simple, but not easy. That is not the issue. The issue is that most people fail to see the assumptions they live by their entire lives. Liberating the Gospels was the most important book on scriptures that I read since graduating from seminary in 1978. I read it in the early 2000s. If you value my experience as you say, then you should read this statement as a very powerful one. I read a lot of books in the 25 years between between 1978 and 2003. You don't HAVE to read it, but if you want to have your eyes opened, and your mind blown, by all means read the book. It is not light reading, and it took me a while longer than any of his other books, but this is the one to read. It is well documented and not a matter of one man's opinion. It illustrates liturgical, cultural, and etymological origins of single words that changes everything. The entire notion of Mother Mary being a virgin, for example, is due to a mis-translation by the biblical author Matthew! How do we know? Because Matthew, like other Jews of the 1st century were reading the Tenach (OT) in Greek, not Hebrew. Greek was the lingua franca of that time, like English is today. The Greek Septuigint translated that passage in Isaiah 7:14,"Therefore will the Lord himself give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel." Now I pulled this from Wiki: "The author of the Gospel of Matthew used the Septuagint's translation of the Hebrew word almah as the Greek parthenos (unequivocally a virgin) in support of his concept of the virgin birth of Jesus. Scholars agree that almah has nothing to do with virginity 'per se', but many conservative Christians still judge the acceptability of new Bible translations by the way they deal with Isaiah 7:14." I found this on Google when I sought the Hebrew word for virgin - bertolah: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ Look at the history of the Catholic Church alone. Did you ever read a child's catechism book wherein an illustration of a family is labelled "Good," but an illustration of monks, nuns, and priests is labelled "Better/Best?" I have. The St. Joseph Baltimore Cathechism for young Catholic children that I once owned. Almost two millennia of celibacy has been promulgated, despite the original Hebrew writings which never valued celibacy.I don't mind being criticized, especially when you have clearly stated the points of your objections. Yes, a young person's spiritual life should be encouraged, and I can be too harsh at times, but understand that I was deceived by my own false assumptions for far too long. My spirituality was part adult and two parts childish imaginings. Spong's book Zen-slapped me Awake. I didn't mind the pang because it worked. I HATE being deceived, even by myself. Many people do not want to be Awakened from their comforting illusions. I've heard young adults say to their parents, "When we get to Heaven..." and I really want to stop them and take issue with their child-like statement, but then I realize we're visiting someone in a hospital, we're not in a seminar room. It's not my place unless asked. I found this with regard to your question on reincarnation. I first read misinformation about the Council of Chalcedon in the book Autobiography of a Yogi that I read in 1975, as I was finishing college, but this is a scholarly response: Dr. Paul R. Eddy, Associate Professor of Theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, Minnesota, responds: "...First, The Council of Nicea, the first of the seven Ecumenical councils, took place in 325 A.D. It was concerned with the teachings of Arius and their implications for a correct understanding of the person of Jesus Christ. The documents from this Council offer no evidence that the topic of reincarnation ever came up for discussion, let alone that it was condemned and removed from the Bible. No doubt this claim means to refer, rather, to the fifth Ecumenical Council, held in 553--the Council of Constantinople. The primary purpose of this Council was to ease the tensions in the Church caused by the Council of Chalcedon 100 years previous. Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that the idea of reincarnation was ever discussed, let alone condemned and purged from the Bible. What the reincarnationists are probably referring to here is the condemnation of Origenism, which included belief in the pre-existence of the soul. This should not, however, be confused with the notions of the karmic cycle of reincarnation. This is clear from Origen's own words on this matter when he writes of "the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures." Other early theologians, including Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Gregory of Nyssa, also explicitly rejected the idea of reincarnation. Another problem with this theory is the fact that manuscripts of the Bible exist dating back to the third century. For example, the Bodmer Papyri (dated around 200-225), the Chester Beatty Papyri (dated around 200-250), Codex Vaticanus (dated around 325-350), and Codex Sinaiticus (dated around 340) are all documents written centuries prior to the 533 Council, and none of them reveal any supposed reincarnationist teachings that were removed from later editions of the Bible! Beyond this, it is known that the core canon of the Bible was essentially recognized and acknowledged throughout the orthodox Church as early as the late second and early third centuries, as evidenced by the list contained in the Muratorian Fragment (dated around 170). All of this points towards the impossibility of a conspiratorial purgation of the doctrine of reincarnation--or any other doctrine for that matter--from the Bible during any of the Ecumenical Councils." - http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKE -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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--=..Did Adam and ...?=-- Registered: 04/30/03 Posts: 3,910 Loc: isle de la muerte Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours |
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"Christ's teachings."
What are those again? and...um...who practices them? I forget ...they must be really subtle...
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Illogical Ninja Registered: 08/29/13 Posts: 61 Last seen: 9 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Because Jesus likes to get his way and He learned that controlling people with opiates is easier than chains and whips. Once he got a taste for willing donors, hiding it from the wise and intelligent prevented... inconveniences.
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Illogical Ninja Registered: 08/29/13 Posts: 61 Last seen: 9 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Then call it yourself and not the moment.
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Illogical Ninja Registered: 08/29/13 Posts: 61 Last seen: 9 years, 6 months |
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Deviant. Markos. You guys really need to take up this sort of personal debating in private.
It just feels like Hannah opened a discussion about something she was interested in. Everyone came to discuss, and now you two have kind of taken over and started a a big long debate of your own. Sort it out and get back to us. Edited by pmoseman (09/11/13 03:18 PM)
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 2 days |
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Quote: I'm done. Besides, it IS an open forum. Not my fault if nobody else wants to get involved.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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Quote: Rofl, welcome to the shroomery! get used to it. I don't see Hannah posting anything anywhere anyways, if anything there's a lot of info being presented from multiple angles about the given topic. Edited by teknix (09/11/13 04:02 PM)
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נפל מגיהינום Registered: 10/07/12 Posts: 2,365 Last seen: 24 days, 15 hours |
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Quote: How would you explain that the Bible says that God said "Thou shalt not kill", but also says that God said to kill your children or wife or husband or parents if they try to follow a different God? Before Pope Irenaeus there was no single Bible. There were hundreds of gospels and the Jewish texts that make up the old testament. It was Irenaeus who analyzed the texts and selected those that he thought should be church doctrine. The books he selected became what we know as the Bible, today, and the other texts were eliminated. These are called the Apocrypha. The Gnostic Gospels are the best example of books related to the life of Christ which were rejected as being part of official church teaching. The church picked things that fit their message and politics and left out the rest. There were a very large number of early Christian people who disagreed with Irenaeus and with what he chose to include in the Bible. Therefore, when you say that you think the Bible is perfect, (in spite of its obvious contradictions), you are saying that you think Irenaeus's choices were perfect and that Irenaeus was perfect. Your thinking that the bible is perfect "does not seem to have any valid or understandable reasons" (as you put it). -------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 2 days |
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Biblical infallibility is the by-line of orthodoxy. It is tradition-speak. It is a form of brainwashing. Irenaeus was a bastard from a Gnostic perspective. If the poster is interested in truth over tradition, she could take the time to watch this vid. I watched it last night and this morning. I am familiar with the Nag Hammadi library, as well as Bart Ehrman, the theologian, but I enjoy hearing other scholarly takes on truth that has been suppressed for so long in the history of Christianity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?fe -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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--=..Did Adam and ...?=-- Registered: 04/30/03 Posts: 3,910 Loc: isle de la muerte Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours |
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I love the apocryphal tales of the young Jesus. He was a total asshole. They left all those stories out. That's why you only read about Jesus' last year. He didn't do anything before that but prove he was an asshole. Then he finally got killed. But if you read about what he was like as a youth you would have applauded too.
Even now the remnants of Jesus' teaching only kill, separate, and pollute. They have only led this planet to the brink of destruction. And you call him a messenger of love? I cry in my own puke when I think too much about it.
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Ascended Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 5,401 Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours |
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hookers and blackjack Registered: 09/16/12 Posts: 12,666 Loc: Canada |
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Quote: No because people confuse self with ego. To be egoless is to be in the moment. Not wrapped up in my own crap that I created such as the bible for instance. P.S. I'd like to point out it's impossible to live in the moment as it is impossible to be completely yourself. -------------------- Improve your sterile techniques! (A comprehensive guide to agar) Links upon links of literally EVERYTHING UP TO DATE AMU Q&A No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 2 days |
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Very colorful. Maybe you should wipe your face and take some Pepto-Bismol®. The apocryphal story about Iesous making birds of clay that get stomped by a bully, who he kills, and then turns the clay birds to real ones that fly away is also a very colorful example. I've read a lot of bogus stories and false gospels over the decades. I'm afraid you are taking things way too seriously. The truth of the matter is simply how truthful are you, and how kind are you? These are the measure of what someone understands. Results may vary.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/11/13 11:02 PM)
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Illogical Ninja Registered: 08/29/13 Posts: 61 Last seen: 9 years, 6 months |
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Quote: People are confused by the term ego because no one ever uses it. You could call it inhibition, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Inhibition can be worth a lot to you down the road. All extremes are boundaries which cannot be crossed. A completed journey for me, at this juncture, would be sad indeed. The ego has abilities the primitive id never had; transforming itself is just one example.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Can you give me some more examples of how this book might benefit me? Quote: And this is exactly why I am not super excited about the book. I have heard these ideas before, both that Mary being a virgin was due to a mistranslation as well as that it was intentionally told that way to add more significance to the birth of Jesus, highlighting what a monumental and rare event it was. Further evidence against the virgin birth can be inferred from Paul's letters as he never once mentions it. But this appears to be an area in which you and I differ. I personally don't care if Mary had sex with Jospeh. What difference does it make to me? Other than perhaps changing my recitation of the apostles creed when I pray the holy rosary, how would this affect my practice of the faith? My interest lies more along the lines of books like the Imitation of Christ which deal directly with the practical aspects of the Christian life. Thats not to say I dont have a strong academic interest in the Bible, I do enjoy learning about the scriptures a great deal. But I almost classify that interest as more academic and hobby like, than practical in the sense that I feel as though I am capable of practicing the faith without all that knowledge. Not that it isn't nice to have and of course I'm sure that one would pick up certain insights which would result in a better practice of the faith but it is by no means necessary in my opinion. So I aplogize if I came accross as too harsh on you or argumentative. You are actually one of my favorite posters here as you are a bit like a walking spiritual encyclopedia. I just wanted to express my opinion that with all your knowledge and experience you can often come off as quite authoritative to young people who dont know nearly as much as you and for that reason, i would hope that you consider which points you want to emphasize. As I explained earlier, I am all for emphasizing the fact that God is within. The spiritual path can be very confusing and I dont want to overload people with information when love is really whats important. Me personally however, I am interested in the book you recommended although I would appreciate if you told me more about it. I am also very interested in the book of enoch which i read for first time recently. Do you have any thoughts on the enoch? Quote: Ok, first of all the infallible Bible is a protestant notion. I being catholic, disagree with many protestant doctrines. Secondly I would be the first to tell you the catholic church isn't perfect. Thats not news to me. But if we are talking about serious, devout practice of the catholic faith vs a life of pursuing carnal pleasures, then the catholic faith is so far superior that it might as well be perfect. Thirdly, the issue of celibacy in the church is larger than what you have spoken to here. First of all, I am not convinced that no value was placed on celibacy. Doesnt St Paul speak of the benefits of being celibate saying that while being married was better than being on fire with lust, celibacy was even higher? ANd what about this passage in Isaiah : "The LORD will surely separate me from His people." Nor let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree." 4For thus says the LORD, "To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, 5To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial, And a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.…" I am not really sure what it means, just thought id throw it out there. You must also realize that priests were not always required to be celibate. But a lot of people were becoming preists for the wrong reasons. It was a decent and respectable job and so you had people who didnt really care about God doing it for the money. When the church instituted the celibacy rule, the hope was that it would make the priesthood unnapealing to all but the most holy and devout servants God. Fouthly, the celibacy of religious serves a purpose for society at large. It serves as a reminder to us that it is possible to find happiness, meaning and fullfillment in life without sex. In a society which has an unhealthy relationship with sex, which is in fact obsessed with sex and pleasure and human love and relationships, how powerful is it to see openly celibate people happily living their lives without the things that most of society deems as their purpose for being here? So I personally believe that regardless of where you stand on it, the celibacy debate comes down to more than one word. Quote: Can you give me some examples of this? What false assumptions were you deceived by? What has changed in you since? Allow me to say this though. The spiritual path is the path of awakening. It is the process of removing from ourselves, our false assumptions and delusions and replacing them with a solid foundation of love and faith. Here's the thing though, everyone is going to have false assumptions and misconceptions about spirituality. We dont come to the path with full knowledge. That's why we need religion/teaching. But everyone must develop according to their own karma, or the specific needs of their own soul. The path is never exactly the same for two souls. So in my opinion, what is most important is faith and devotion and perseverence. Recall the words of Jesus, seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened for you. Every soul must find its own way to God and God will provide a way for every soul provided it continues to seek and does not give up. Thus I feel like this should be what is emphasized to people in positions like the OP, especially when you have atheists attacking her and calling her post bullshit. Her faith may be the greatest gift God has given her and it must be nurtured. Challenging her understanding of the scriptures might not be the best way to do that. I also would like to emphasize the utter joy and bliss God gives. I like to focus on what is positive and powerful and universal, rather than trying to push people toward a certain interpretation of the scriptures. That is necessary sometimes but do you really know where her soul is right now on its journey from just single post? Perhaps it is developing other virtues and faculties and it will seek a deeper understanding of the scriptures later, when it is ready. I want you to know that I am not critizing you with this post or even trying to debate or say that my approach is better than yours. I just wanted to express an alternate opinion. Quote: Of course peope dont want to be awakened from their comforting illusions. There is a big disconnect between the amount of effort and sacrifice reuired to follow Jddddddddddddddddddddddd Quote: What would you say to them? What is so wrong with their statemet anyway? but then I realize we're visiting someone in a hospital, we're not in a seminar room. It's not my place unless asked. I found this with regard to your question on reincarnation. I first read misinformation about the Council of Chalcedon in the book Autobiography of a Yogi that I read in 1975, as I was finishing college, but this is a scholarly response: Dr. Paul R. Eddy, Associate Professor of Theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, Minnesota, responds: "...First, The Council of Nicea, the first of the seven Ecumenical councils, took place in 325 A.D. It was concerned with the teachings of Arius and their implications for a correct understanding of the person of Jesus Christ. The documents from this Council offer no evidence that the topic of reincarnation ever came up for discussion, let alone that it was condemned and removed from the Bible. No doubt this claim means to refer, rather, to the fifth Ecumenical Council, held in 553--the Council of Constantinople. The primary purpose of this Council was to ease the tensions in the Church caused by the Council of Chalcedon 100 years previous. Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that the idea of reincarnation was ever discussed, let alone condemned and purged from the Bible. What the reincarnationists are probably referring to here is the condemnation of Origenism, which included belief in the pre-existence of the soul. This should not, however, be confused with the notions of the karmic cycle of reincarnation. This is clear from Origen's own words on this matter when he writes of "the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures." Other early theologians, including Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Gregory of Nyssa, also explicitly rejected the idea of reincarnation. Another problem with this theory is the fact that manuscripts of the Bible exist dating back to the third century. For example, the Bodmer Papyri (dated around 200-225), the Chester Beatty Papyri (dated around 200-250), Codex Vaticanus (dated around 325-350), and Codex Sinaiticus (dated around 340) are all documents written centuries prior to the 533 Council, and none of them reveal any supposed reincarnationist teachings that were removed from later editions of the Bible! Beyond this, it is known that the core canon of the Bible was essentially recognized and acknowledged throughout the orthodox Church as early as the late second and early third centuries, as evidenced by the list contained in the Muratorian Fragment (dated around 170). All of this points towards the impossibility of a conspiratorial purgation of the doctrine of reincarnation--or any other doctrine for that matter--from the Bible during any of the Ecumenical Councils." - http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKE
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Squatchin Registered: 04/01/13 Posts: 1,015 Last seen: 4 years, 2 months |
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 2 days |
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Can you give me some more examples of how this book might benefit me?
No. If you're not interested in a scholarly explanation of organizing principles of how the NT was written based upon the Jewish liturgical calendar, e.g., how the 'three days' was in intended between Friday night and Sunday morning following the crucifixion (when it was clearly not three days), and a number of things that Christians simply gloss over without ever understanding their intended meanings, then don't bother reading the book. It's only one book man. I am not going to write a compendious confession on just how many point of it awakened me. $4.00 will buy you one on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-l That passage about eunuchs is a consolation to them, who will never, as Genesis command, be able to "be fruitful and multiply." Among Jews even today, btw, the only cause for transmigration of the soul, called gilgul, is failure to "be fruitful and multiply." I am guilty of this. Orthodox Jews are just like traditional Catholics when it comes to large families. It is pretty clear from scriptures that Jesus had siblings. In fact there is a large book about James, brother of Jesus, who might have been entrusted with the role of Peter. Paul was mistaken about the 'end times,' Clearly, his apocalyptic understanding of the end of the world and the descent of the heavenly Jerusalem was just plain wrong. He abjured people to remain free and unencumbered, but to marry rather than "burn" with carnal desire. The questionable pseudo-Pauline letters that have woman not speaking in church, covering their heads, obeying their husbands, indicates another author. The genuine Pauline letters paint an entirely different, egalitarian picture of women "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28. Either Paul had multiple personalities, or the NT contains letters by someone who was a misogynist. Some have suggested that the "thorn in my side" that Paul asked God to relieve him of, was a misogynistic homosexuality. Who knows? The pseudo-Paul clearly disliked women. I like to focus on what is positive and powerful and universal, rather than trying to push people toward a certain interpretation of the scriptures. I see nutters with sandwich signs, even recently, announcing the end of the world and a call for repentance. These folks are in the extreme, but many, many people haven't grokked that Paul was wrong.The end times are not near. They are inevitable for the planet, but who knows if life on the planet will continue until the sun goes nova, or, if you like Revelations, until asteroids fall to Earth. Of course the word in Greek is aster as in *asterisk* but unlike the fucktard fundamentalist who tried to pick a fistfight with me at work years ago, who suggested that "Maybe the sun is the size of a basketball, but God puts a force-field of some kind around it to make it look larger," stars cannot fall to Earth. Asteroids can! But I digress. Paul was wrong about the immanent end, but he was also wrong in that the end of time occurs as soon as a human being begins to do what Eckhart Tolle teaches about the Realization of Being. Time ends when we Realize our Eternal Essence. This idea is closer to the theology of Thomas, not Paul. His entire vicarious sacrifice theology may well be totally wrong. Paul speaks to a 'partially-realized eschatology,' not a Thomistic 'fully-realized eschatology.' For Paul, the fulfillment of the kingdom of Heaven is at least partly IN time, in history. This was the messianic hope of the Jews, and continues to be a guiding mythos even today. Historical Jesus on the cross is interpreted as a metaphysical event that continues to resonate and effect people, instead of a psychospiritual movement in which we must sacrifice our egoic mind, moment-to-moment as Eckhart Tolle teaches. Tolle's understanding of Christianity, like an elaboration of Thomas' gospel hits me with total truth. Paul's vicarious sacrificial theology just dredges up the ancient Jewish temple sacrifices, Jesus being the final "lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world," and the rest of the OT sacrifices that I studied through a whole year of OT courses in seminary. Yecccch. I'll take a Buddhist or a Tollean interpretation of sacrifice any day. The sayings that Christ has been victorious over death, for most theologies, does not mean that like the 'good thief,' "today you shall be with me in paradise" when you die. NO. For most theologies, one 'sleeps' in the dust until Judgement Day, the so-called Rapture, when the ''dead in Christ" will arise. I for one do not want to interpret scriptures AS IF these mythological descriptions of events IN TIME describe Reality. I'll listen to Tolle's interpretation more closely because it effects my moment-to-moment life here and now. Here and now refers to the Eternal Now, the Present, Presence. There is no Life-after-death. The Life Eternal doesn't begin at a point in time, with death. That is absurd. Life Eternal exists here and now and must be Realized. THIS is how interpretation of scriptures profoundly effects one's very life. Being a nice guy and waiting for God to do it for you at death is no doubt a big mistake for people who simply 'believe' and will be completely unprepared for death as they enter it still identified with their egoic mind, their mental, and astral sheaths of thoughts and feelings, expecting some Elysian Fields, like Heaven will be a perpetual church picnic with their loved ones. THAT is what's wrong with "...When we get into Heaven..." Now then...This is becoming tedious. I've expressed the crux of the matters to you. Christian mainstream theologies are inherently flawed because of their reliance on time, on history, and hence upon temporally established church practices. This is why the Gnostics were so persecuted. Salvation was based upon Self-Realization and NOT about church-mediated sacraments including the eucharist, confession, etc., which made one absolutely dependent upon the priesthood and one's good standing in the church. I tried the Catholic trip, for years, and that is no small thing for a Jewish boy to have undergone. I was ostracized and rejected by much of my family. I entered a Methodist seminary because I Realized that I loved women. I was invited by Capuchin Reformed Franciscan, Benedictine and Cistercian monks to become a novitiate in their orders. BTW, they were all Gay, I was not. Revelation. I guess I used to be cute as well as smart.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Look at the history of the Catholic Church alone. Did you ever read a child's catechism book wherein an illustration of a family is labelled "Good," but an illustration of monks, nuns, and priests is labelled "Better/Best?" I have. The St. Joseph Baltimore Cathechism for young Catholic children that I once owned. Almost two millennia of celibacy has been promulgated, despite the original Hebrew writings which never valued celibacy.
I guess I used to be cute as well as smart.
