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OfflineHannahMichelle
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #18821289 - 09/09/13 11:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

@eve69


"She has not a belief but a hundred separate beliefs all of which are contradictory. I imagine this thread is more of a sounding out for her than a positive statement of what she actually thinks. What she thinks is momentary, as it is for all of us. The terms of our beliefs change."


Because I really AM open minded, and I don't want to be believing in the Bible if it's not true; I would like to know why you think what I wrote contradicts itself? If my thinking is obviously so flawed that even you can see it through this small doctrinal statement, you should easily be able to point out to me! I'm very willing to consider every possible angle and opinion. Yes, what I think MAY VERY WELL be momentary, but it also may not be. Hopefully they change into a stronger belief.

"She is young, and hasn't experienced much, or her beliefs wouldn't be so all or nothing. Therefore since it is merely her belief way station before actually experiencing life they are bullshit.  To her they may mean something, but for me, they merely sound like a young Christian thinker trying to actually have an individual thought.  It's very difficult for them."

Are you all knowing? Do you now the future? You say I wrote bullshit, but your over here trying to predict the future of a person whom you have never met... Just saying.
I personally don't find it difficult to have an indivisual thought.I wrote this because I wanted to a.) share with you all which may be exactly what you needed to hear. b.) Hear your opinion, and get maybe get lucky with hearing truth from someone else. Must be valid and reasonable though.

"This statement of her Christianity is posited as something alongside having an open mind. That is patent bullshit. She has no room for any other consideration than what white bread religious teachings she has eaten her fill of. There's no more room. Why does she even talk about having an open mind then talking all that specious Bible bullshit. Good is good, Jesus is truth, the Bible is the word of God. "

Like I said above, I have plenty of room to consider every belief of someone, just give me the reasons you believe what you believe so I can actually BEGIN and ATTEMPT to consider it. May I ask what DO you believe? And why? Please enlighten me.

"What a fucking crock of shit."

I believe everything I do because of reasoning. I have must have a reason for something, otherwise, why would I believe. I'm dissecting my beliefs and other possible beliefs to com down to the most plausible conclusion.
Even though we obviously disagree, I do value your posts and you have given me a little to consider. Please give me more reason on why you believe what you do, and what it is that you believe.

Thanks homieeee. (:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: Deviate]
    #18821314 - 09/09/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Here we have what appears to be a young girl, filled with a firm conviction and a strong faith. Instead of encouraging her and commending her and urging her to continue along a spiritual path in life, instead you send her off in the direction of advanced intellectual, theological and historical understanding.

And you would not encourage her to grow in faith, but have her retain an understanding that is as ill-fitting as her grade school clothes?! This is what you criticize? Shame on you. 

I personally feel like you would do her much better service by encouraging her along the path of love for Yahweh that Jesus taught.

Here's a book and a newsflash for you. The Father of the New Testament is never once referred to by the transliterated YHVH that you used. In fact, phenomenologically, The Father as a benign parent has nothing in common with that irrascible and capricious mountain deity that takes that name after the creation (from the Elohim) in Genesis. There are several very important divine names in the Tenach, none of which are picked up by the NT writers. Many Gnostic Christians tried to explain this major difference in God with a host of bizarre mythologies, but at least they took their blinders off and acknowledged the obviously blatant contradictions in God concepts. You are overlooking some profound changes that occurred historically. I am not a biblical scholar, but I know enough to point out important teachers in this domain. Clearly, the fundamentalist trend is lunacy, imposed ignorance, violent, oppressive, and nothing like original Christianity was in its variety before Nicaea, and the canonical Bible that suppressed the rich variety of perspectives on Christ.


Love is far more important than advanced understanding of the scriptures. You don't need to know all that stuff that you know. The Christian life is a life of building up virtues, avoiding vice and growing in love for God and surrendering oneself to him.

(1) I did not write these scholarly books. All I did was read them and evaluate their worth for anyone who wants to mature in their Christian faith instead of abandoning their faith altogether because their understanding remained childish in an adult being and it didn't fit anymore. (2) Nobody will develop mature spiritual virtues based on an understanding of scriptures that were designed for illiterate peasants of two millennia ago, or very young children. So stop looking at this as what I personally know. If you read these two books, you would know what I know about them.

"Not everyone is like you and needs to know everything about everything. But you seem to think that everyone should be like you."  ->  "I believe the emphases should be on practice rather than theory."

Take your own advice. There is no practice unless one is on firm ground, or else one is building their house upon shifting sands, as the biblical metaphor goes. Like Saint Paul says in Romans 1:13: "Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren..." I am an educator, someone is expressing ideas that could be understood in ways that greatly reconciles faith with reason, instead of the obvious discontinuity that happens when mythos is mistaken for historicity. It's called a teaching moment, and it may never come again. Look at how many Shroomerites have thrown the baby Jesus out with the bathwater because they never kept up with more and more intelligent, modern, and adult understandings of biblical material. You must find it charming in a young woman to see the faith of an innocent, but in a few years, after a few trips, or after the world has begun to creep into her young soul and she abandons her faith, it will be due to opinions like yours not mine that will be at fault. I still maintain a faith along with reason and the value of logical methodologies, scientific and/or phenomenological. I still have a prayer life at age 60, but I know good and well what happens when you don't change the garments of childhood. They burst at the seams and fall away, just as a childish belief system does.

Lastly, Advaita philosophy is strictly Hindu monism, not biblical monotheism. And whereas I am read in that area, I do not see any point in importing so alien a religious construct into your criticism of my post. Talk about confusion! Comparative religion has long been an intellectual interest for me, and obviously you find value in Advaita yourself. Does mention of this hold any clarification for the young lady in question? I think not. I can handle comparative metaphysics, but it doesn't have any relevance for someone you feel you have stepped up to defend. Sorry, but putting those two books out there is a whole lot better IMO than responding with a "That's nice dear" kind of thing. I'd rather appear pedantic or pretentious than patronizing. :shrug:


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/09/13 11:25 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #18821357 - 09/09/13 11:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:

It states the truth over and over in so many ways




Truth.  A good feeling doesn't fulfill those out for the Truth, Light, the Way.  Its more complicated than a feeling that you are part of something.  The history is important, no?, if one is to believe.  In what??




No, the history really isn't particularly important. God is not to be found in books. The wise look for Him within. Plenty of wisdom can be gleamed from the Bible without reading every damn book spiritual nerds like markgosthegnostic obsess over. Certainly if you feel the need to study the history and you feel like an expanded understanding of scripture and the precise context in which it was created would benefit you, by all means, learn what you can. But you should not fall into the trap of believing that that is necessary for you to progress spiritually. Endless book learning does little in my experience. I recommend spending more time in prayer and meditation, rather than study. A couple of books I do recommend though, are the Imitation of Christ and the Interior Castle. Neither of these has anything to do with history or the interpretation of scripture, furthering my point that such study is not necessary for one to progress spiritually.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18821427 - 09/09/13 11:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Here we have what appears to be a young girl, filled with a firm conviction and a strong faith. Instead of encouraging her and commending her and urging her to continue along a spiritual path in life, instead you send her off in the direction of advanced intellectual, theological and historical understanding.

And you would not encourage her to grow in faith, but have her retain an understanding that is as ill-fitting as her grade school clothes?! This is what you criticize? Shame on you. 

I personally feel like you would do her much better service by encouraging her along the path of love for Yahweh that Jesus taught.

Here's a book and a newsflash for you. The Father of the New Testament is never once referred to by the transliterated YHVH that you used. In fact, phenomenologically, The Father as a benign parent has nothing in common with that irrascible and capricious mountain deity that takes that name after the creation (from the Elohim) in Genesis. There are several very important divine names in the Tenach, none of which are picked up by the NT writers. Many Gnostic Christians tried to explain this major difference in God with a host of bizarre mythologies, but at least they took their blinders off and acknowledged the obviously blatant contradictions in God concepts. You are overlooking some profound changes that occurred historically. I am not a biblical scholar, but I know enough to point out important teachers in this domain. Clearly, the fundamentalist trend is lunacy, imposed ignorance, violent, oppressive, and nothing like original Christianity was in its variety before Nicaea, and the canonical Bible that suppressed the rich variety of perspectives on Christ.


Love is far more important than advanced understanding of the scriptures. You don't need to know all that stuff that you know. The Christian life is a life of building up virtues, avoiding vice and growing in love for God and surrendering oneself to him.

(1) I did not write these scholarly books. All I did was read them and evaluate their worth for anyone who wants to mature in their Christian faith instead of abandoning their faith altogether because their understanding remained childish in an adult being and it didn't fit anymore. (2) Nobody will develop mature spiritual virtues based on an understanding of scriptures that were designed for illiterate peasants of two millennia ago, or very young children. So stop looking at this as what I personally know. If you read these two books, you would know what I know about them.

"Not everyone is like you and needs to know everything about everything. But you seem to think that everyone should be like you."  ->  "I believe the emphases should be on practice rather than theory."

Take your own advice. There is no practice unless one is on firm ground, or else one is building their house upon shifting sands, as the biblical metaphor goes. Like Saint Paul says in Romans 1:13: "Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren..." I am an educator, someone is expressing ideas that could be understood in ways that greatly reconciles faith with reason, instead of the obvious discontinuity that happens when mythos is mistaken for historicity. It's called a teaching moment, and it may never come again. Look at how many Shroomerites have thrown the baby Jesus out with the bathwater because they never kept up with more and more intelligent, modern, and adult understandings of biblical material. You must find it charming in a young woman to see the faith of an innocent, but in a few years, after a few trips, or after the world has begun to creep into her young soul and she abandons her faith, it will be due to opinions like yours not mine that will be at fault. I still maintain a faith along with reason and the value of logical methodologies, scientific and/or phenomenological. I still have a prayer life at age 60, but I know good and well what happens when you don't change the garments of childhood. They burst at the seams and fall away, just as a childish belief system does.

Lastly, Advaita philosophy is strictly Hindu monism, not biblical monotheism. And whereas I am read in that area, I do not see any point in importing so alien a religious construct into your criticism of my post. Talk about confusion! Comparative religion has long been an intellectual interest for me, and obviously you find value in Advaita yourself. Does mention of this hold any clarification for the young lady in question? I think not. I can handle comparative metaphysics, but it doesn't have any relevance for someone you feel you have stepped up to defend. Sorry, but putting those two books out there is a whole lot better IMO than responding with a "That's nice dear" kind of thing. I'd rather appear pedantic or pretentious than patronizing. :shrug:





Lets look at the spirituality of st. teresa of avila. She was a humble nun who was entirely faithful to the catholic church. Did she lose her faith because it was childish or incompatible with reason? No. She progressed in prayer and wrote the interior castle. Do you think she read the books you mentioned?

Thats my point. Its not necessary. And this point goes beyond me thinking the faith of a young woman is charming. You do this in every thread it seems, you just did it to me with the Jesus Yahweh thing. My current understanding is obvious not good enough, I must read this book you recommend. There is nothing wrong with furthering ones knowledge. I have been doing it for years already. The problem is, it never ends. You cant know everything and not everyone can become a bliblical scholar. Its just not practical to expect people to reach the same level of education in these matters that you have.

I do appreciate your expertise, you are one of the most informative posters on these forums, if not the most imformative. I just think you tend to go overboard with your desire to educate sometimes. Does that make sense?


Edited by Deviate (09/09/13 11:53 PM)


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OfflineTruthseeker316
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: Deviate]
    #18822279 - 09/10/13 07:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The spiritual journey is less about gaining more and more knowledge, and more about pealing away the layers and layers of one's false self (at the core of which true wisdom is found).


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: Truthseeker316]
    #18822286 - 09/10/13 07:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Couldn't you peal at layers with knowledge...??:confused:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: Truthseeker316]
    #18822315 - 09/10/13 07:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Truthseeker316 said:
The spiritual journey is less about gaining more and more knowledge, and more about pealing away the layers and layers of one's false self (at the core of which true wisdom is found).





That's what I am saying. There is plenty of spiritual food for the soul in the Holy Bible as it is, even without the aid of being a Biblical scholar.  If one would take just a few principles the Bible teaches and fully integrate them into their lives, they would make more progress than years of academic study affords. Gaining knowledge often further entangles one in ego. The truly blessed remain in the simple state that comes before knowledge.

That is why I must disagree with saying read this or read that so you understand the scriptures as well as i do. No, just abide in truth. THat is all one must do. Or as Jesus puts it "remain in my love". For some people, this involves a great deal of intellectual study. THis is often the case for heavily intellectual or scientifically minded souls. But there are also artistic emotional type souls. These souls can feel their way home to God without all the intellectual banter. They are deeply in tune with their feelings and intuition and simply hearing about Jesus's love as taught by almost any church, is sufficient for them to learn to to tune into it.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: HannahMichelle]
    #18822564 - 09/10/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HannahMichelle said:
@eve69


"She has not a belief but a hundred separate beliefs all of which are contradictory. I imagine this thread is more of a sounding out for her than a positive statement of what she actually thinks. What she thinks is momentary, as it is for all of us. The terms of our beliefs change."




Quote:

Because I  really AM open minded, and I don't want to be believing in the Bible if it's not true; I would like to know why you think what I wrote contradicts itself? If my thinking is obviously so flawed that even you can see it through this small doctrinal statement, you should easily be able to point out to me! I'm very willing to consider every possible angle and opinion. Yes, what I think MAY VERY WELL be momentary, but it also may not be. Hopefully they change into a stronger belief.




Thanks for reading my post. I grew up in Hollyweird as a kid. I was a punk rocker, mostly hanging on the street. I used to walk past proselytizing religious nuts from Christianity, Scientology and Hare Krishnas on a daily basis. I saw they for the hustlers them were. You learn about that living close to the bone.

I am a bit nauseated by standard formulaic definitions of deity and belief. When I read trite turns of phrase regarding such profound considerations I hear not thought but someone who has learned to parrot ideas without really becoming them. 

It's an instinctual thing and you may think I simply must take each individual separately when considering their beliefs but that really isn't true because religion comes with its baggage.  The very notion of Jesus has such insurmountable hypocrisy attached that that is inseparable from the religion. 

On a side note - our Lutheran pastor above thinks because he's both a pastor and a scholar that that amounts to knowing truth. That isn't the case.  I have said it before and I believe that seekers are the ones who may grasp truth but they do not ever feel satisfied with whatever they have found because they are seekers and believe a better truth always awaits further exploration.

What the Lutheran above is is a good salesman. Nothing more. His quest stopped when he took the label Lutheran to mean something synonymous to TRUTH. 


"She is young, and hasn't experienced much, or her beliefs wouldn't be so all or nothing. Therefore since it is merely her belief way station before actually experiencing life they are bullshit.  To her they may mean something, but for me, they merely sound like a young Christian thinker trying to actually have an individual thought.  It's very difficult for them."


Quote:

Are you all knowing? Do you now the future? You say I wrote bullshit, but your over here trying to predict the future of a person whom you have never met... Just saying.




It's difficult to accept maybe that someone who is pretty old can make judgements about other people especially those who are young.  But as you get older you'll find that time and age, not belief impart wisdom.  I was totally iconoclastic as a youth and studied Eastern tantra.  I married a Catholic and through my in-laws I learned what awesome people some Catholics can be. (If maybe hypocritically conservative).

The point is that you will change and your beliefs will change and the solidity of your present faith will become less solid and you will become more balanced in outlook.


Doubtless your core beliefs will not change.  But their usefulness to you in daily life will, and they will diminish as you grow into life and age into wisdom.


Quote:

I personally don't find it difficult to have an indivisual thought.I wrote this because I wanted to a.) share with you all which may be exactly what you needed to hear. b.) Hear your opinion, and get maybe get lucky with hearing truth from someone else. Must be valid and reasonable though.




I was mean earlier, and I apologize. I feel that you are in fact a seeker (even before being a Christian). (In Christianity that is not allowed, you wayward sheeple :smile:)

But understand that reasonable and Christian (or even religious) don't mix.



"This statement of her Christianity is posited as something alongside having an open mind. That is patent bullshit. She has no room for any other consideration than what white bread religious teachings she has eaten her fill of. There's no more room. Why does she even talk about having an open mind then talking all that specious Bible bullshit. Good is good, Jesus is truth, the Bible is the word of God. "

Quote:

Like I said above, I have plenty of room to consider every belief of someone, just give me the reasons you believe what you believe so I can actually BEGIN and ATTEMPT to consider it. May I ask what DO you believe? And why? Please enlighten me.




I am a Dzogchen/Shakta Tantric - rather homespun iconoclastic mix. Tantric would be my preferred turn of phrase for what I am. Tantras are not sexual positions but rather Eastern recipes for spiritual exploration which do not demand belief but which still profess to yield spiritual or worldly benefit through practice alone.

The tantras predated pretty much every religion (See Ronald Davidson - Spread of religion through Silk Road confluence in ancient times). That is not an actual bibliographical reference because I don't have that book in front of me.

Those are my beliefs.  If I say I believe in the Goddes as Lalita Tripurasundari I doubt that would mean anything. But that's my belief.

I objected to the opening post because you said you had an open mind then delineated your core beliefs which all sounded pretty much Churchy and Christist.



"What a fucking crock of shit."

I believe everything I do because of reasoning. I have must have a reason for something, otherwise, why would I believe. I'm dissecting my beliefs and other possible beliefs to com down to the most plausible conclusion.
Even though we obviously disagree, I do value your posts and you have given me a little to consider. Please give me more reason on why you believe what you do, and what it is that you believe.

Thank you Sis. Please don't be upset with my strident tone and curt turns of phrase. I was pushing you. I do know you're a good person. In this world intent is the true religion - the rest is just words.

Thanks homieeee. (:




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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: eve69]
    #18822626 - 09/10/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You are allowed to believe in anything you want. It is illogical to believe in anything yet I still believe in love and myself. I still have beliefs like you said. If prayer and believing you go to heaven makes you sleep at night go for it. I don't have enough evidence to tell you not to. Still as said earlier I feel the bible is just a distraction to opening yourself up and living completely in the moment. If you were to live in the moment you'd have no beliefs. You wouldn't care about what happened 30 seconds ago let alone 2000 years ago. To live purely in the moment means to truly find yourself. Pure and utter existence.

That's what meditation is for.

Freedoms means I don't tell you what to do and you don't tell me what to do. If the bible tells you to love jesus and to stone your kid for thinking about other gods are you actually given freedom? Real freedom would also be found in the moment

In conclusion I believe in the moment which is myself.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #18823270 - 09/10/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Couldn't you peal at layers with knowledge...??:confused:




yeah but book knowledge only goes so far. scholar's aren't necessarily writing about the kind of shit that's been influencing our minds from a young age, shit that's very obvious and yet at the same time not so obvious. at a certain point, the things holding us back aren't individuated, they are big concepts holding ALL of us back as a generation and a species.


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OfflineYogi1
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... [Re: HannahMichelle]
    #18823368 - 09/10/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:whacker:  :tard:


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: ... [Re: Yogi1]
    #18823582 - 09/10/13 01:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

thats funny and all but seriously...do you really need to post shit like that in a spirituality forum? come on man..


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: ... [Re: g00ru]
    #18823602 - 09/10/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

g00ru said:
thats funny and all but seriously...do you really need to post shit like that in a spirituality forum? come on man..




Seeing as how this is vague philosophy I figured it could take my honest impression upon viewing.

Some of the shit posted on this forum is :woooaaahhh:

Tis philosophy, and philosophy is simply irrelevant mind chatter from egos. In this case I could give the OP a "duh" Again, not spirituality or mysticism. I will cease to shit on it when it moves to the shitty psychology and philosophy forum.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: Deviate]
    #18823905 - 09/10/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Lets look at the spirituality of st. teresa of avila. She was a humble nun who was entirely faithful to the catholic church. Did she lose her faith because it was childish or incompatible with reason? No. She progressed in prayer and wrote the interior castle. Do you think she read the books you mentioned?

This is an absurd conclusion, considering that she lived and died centuries before these books existed.

I must read this book you recommend.

Look at your interpretation. I recommend a couple of excellent books, you turn my recommendation into an imperative ("I must").

Its just not practical to expect people to reach the same level of education in these matters that you have.

I have NO expectations of anyone here beyond myself. I am not a John Spong, a Marcus Borg, a Bart Ehrman, a Karen King, or an Elaine Pagels. The last two are Harvard and Princeton scholars, respectively. These people are the true biblical scholars at present. All I have done is read their books and passed on my own recommendations, for which I make no apologies. I appreciate your appreciation of my information-dissemination, I do, but no, I do not go overboard.

I had a student many years ago who always complained that I wanted him to use "big words." I never actually told him that, but he simply assumed that was what I wanted him to do, because to him, I used big words. But that was just an impression he had of me. Working with junior high and middle school kids, common two-syllable words seem like "big words" to some of the immigrant kids. :shrug: Years after he was in my junior high where I was counselor, I saw him in a Publix supermarket around Miami cutting up fish in their fish counter. He remembered me as the guy who wanted him to use big words. That was a projection of his. It was based on his own self-concept, not on any expectation I had for him. Clearly, he never went to college, but so what? That was not his path. "Big words" did not appeal to him, nor the concepts those words might support and convey.

I am who I am, and if you feel that my recommendations don't apply to YOU, why gripe about it? Move on to someone else's post. There will be a person or two who will take my recommendations and read them. Not everyone will appreciate them equally, but if someone intends to adhere to a religion for an entire lifetime, reading a few books that will bring up their level of understanding to new heights is a valuable thing for them. I have been taking this kind of advice from people my whole life, and I appreciate it.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18826523 - 09/11/13 05:03 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Mark I think your post was excellent.  I didn't get that response either.

This is why we should all stick to the same drug combinations when we wish to communicate. The reply button should really read:
reply on acid
reply on shrooms
reply on other RC
" Chronic
"  Heroin
"  Crack
etc

then we would know where other people were really coming from
:smile:


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Invisibleoropal
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: eve69]
    #18826882 - 09/11/13 08:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I would also have to agree, it seems that deviate, is criticizing one extreme whilst pushing another. A bit contradictory. Very flawed intellectually, and philosophically.

Although to go back to the topic.

I would like to ask Hannah. Do you have a religious upbringing?

If so have you ever stepped out of the beliefs, in which it may be a shock and quite difficult to contemplate(Grasp) that these beliefs, no matter how true they may or may not be in the end, have been pressed upon you.

Although you may feel inside the belief, it really has cam from outside first, then negating the power of the inner.

Now, since there are billions of interpretations of Christ alone, how would you be able to look at your beliefs, when, in fact, in the first instance, they are not your beliefs, but from other people that has been fed to you. And this is not to say that they are false. For arguments sake they could all be positively true.

But my argument is, how is it possible to consciously analyze ones beliefs that come from outwith and not within.


And I can use myself as an example. As being brought up catholic, I then went against the church (Chapel), god, Jesus and the bible et al. Then as I had came to a position of wiping away all my previous influences and conditioning (And this also true for other concepts which I held since swimming out of my mothers canal), to a point, where I as sentient being, contemplated these questions on my own, from my perspective, and not from others. I am actually reading the bible, which I had never done as a "Believer" and when I speak to believers they haven’t read much of it either, rather it seems they have been spoon-fed quotes and statements from their peers and leaders.

I think that it is not possible for you to have a truly open mind, if you are carrying the baggage of other peoples convictions and interpretations.

And we are guilty of this on all cognitive levels, as we are hardwired this way, to pass on knowledge wisdom etc, preserving the group etc etc. But this is all relative. And it seems, especially in America and Germany, which have one major common attribute, is that they have a huge christian following, and to the inquisitive person, alot of them are just following without thinking, and to my great surprise, most aren't ready to really live like Jesus, actually I do not believe most even understand the word of Christ, as they mostly understand the interpretation of Christ that has been shown to them.

Veering away. I just wanted to give a jolt to the thread, as it got caught up in theological debate around conflating positions.!



--------------------
Keep both eyes closed, and one eye opened -0-


Edited by oropal (09/11/13 08:35 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18827436 - 09/11/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Lets look at the spirituality of st. teresa of avila. She was a humble nun who was entirely faithful to the catholic church. Did she lose her faith because it was childish or incompatible with reason? No. She progressed in prayer and wrote the interior castle. Do you think she read the books you mentioned?

This is an absurd conclusion, considering that she lived and died centuries before these books existed.

I must read this book you recommend.

Look at your interpretation. I recommend a couple of excellent books, you turn my recommendation into an imperative ("I must").

Its just not practical to expect people to reach the same level of education in these matters that you have.

I have NO expectations of anyone here beyond myself. I am not a John Spong, a Marcus Borg, a Bart Ehrman, a Karen King, or an Elaine Pagels. The last two are Harvard and Princeton scholars, respectively. These people are the true biblical scholars at present. All I have done is read their books and passed on my own recommendations, for which I make no apologies. I appreciate your appreciation of my information-dissemination, I do, but no, I do not go overboard.

I had a student many years ago who always complained that I wanted him to use "big words." I never actually told him that, but he simply assumed that was what I wanted him to do, because to him, I used big words. But that was just an impression he had of me. Working with junior high and middle school kids, common two-syllable words seem like "big words" to some of the immigrant kids. :shrug: Years after he was in my junior high where I was counselor, I saw him in a Publix supermarket around Miami cutting up fish in their fish counter. He remembered me as the guy who wanted him to use big words. That was a projection of his. It was based on his own self-concept, not on any expectation I had for him. Clearly, he never went to college, but so what? That was not his path. "Big words" did not appeal to him, nor the concepts those words might support and convey.

I am who I am, and if you feel that my recommendations don't apply to YOU, why gripe about it? Move on to someone else's post. There will be a person or two who will take my recommendations and read them. Not everyone will appreciate them equally, but if someone intends to adhere to a religion for an entire lifetime, reading a few books that will bring up their level of understanding to new heights is a valuable thing for them. I have been taking this kind of advice from people my whole life, and I appreciate it.



Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Lets look at the spirituality of st. teresa of avila. She was a humble nun who was entirely faithful to the catholic church. Did she lose her faith because it was childish or incompatible with reason? No. She progressed in prayer and wrote the interior castle. Do you think she read the books you mentioned?

This is an absurd conclusion, considering that she lived and died centuries before these books existed.

I must read this book you recommend.

Look at your interpretation. I recommend a couple of excellent books, you turn my recommendation into an imperative ("I must").

Its just not practical to expect people to reach the same level of education in these matters that you have.

I have NO expectations of anyone here beyond myself. I am not a John Spong, a Marcus Borg, a Bart Ehrman, a Karen King, or an Elaine Pagels. The last two are Harvard and Princeton scholars, respectively. These people are the true biblical scholars at present. All I have done is read their books and passed on my own recommendations, for which I make no apologies. I appreciate your appreciation of my information-dissemination, I do, but no, I do not go overboard.

I had a student many years ago who always complained that I wanted him to use "big words." I never actually told him that, but he simply assumed that was what I wanted him to do, because to him, I used big words. But that was just an impression he had of me. Working with junior high and middle school kids, common two-syllable words seem like "big words" to some of the immigrant kids. :shrug: Years after he was in my junior high where I was counselor, I saw him in a Publix supermarket around Miami cutting up fish in their fish counter. He remembered me as the guy who wanted him to use big words. That was a projection of his. It was based on his own self-concept, not on any expectation I had for him. Clearly, he never went to college, but so what? That was not his path. "Big words" did not appeal to him, nor the concepts those words might support and convey.

I am who I am, and if you feel that my recommendations don't apply to YOU, why gripe about it? Move on to someone else's post. There will be a person or two who will take my recommendations and read them. Not everyone will appreciate them equally, but if someone intends to adhere to a religion for an entire lifetime, reading a few books that will bring up their level of understanding to new heights is a valuable thing for them. I have been taking this kind of advice from people my whole life, and I appreciate it.




I think it is important to remind people to look within instead of making them think they need to gain more knowledge. That was my gripe. The spiritual path can be exceedingly difficult, especially for young people and it is important to think about how you come across with your advice. You are old and wise, having immersed yourself in this stuff for decades. It's not really my place to say and perhaps i should have just posted my own advice instead of cirtisizing yours but i feel like there was a subtle heir of superiority in your words. "my understanding of the Bible is mature and yours is not". That sort of thing.  I may be wrong but I think it would be better to at least begin with some encouragement and praise for even being concerned with the growth of her soul when so many people her age (or any age ) are completely materially focused.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. I have gone on many trips, experienced all different forms of crazily altered consciousess, explored many different spiritual techniques and teachings and studied about different religions. Not anywhere near to the degree you have but suffice is to say I have a much deeper experiencial knowledge of the spiritual and what I would consider a more enlightened understanding of the scriptures than your average Christian.

However, a few years ago i met and made friends with a regular Christian, regular but devout. She just accepted everything the church taught her without really questioning it or looking for outside sources on the meaning of the scriptures. At first, I had a very difficult time with her approach. I kept wanting to "enighten" her  and make her consider things like the possibility of reincarnation (btw, what is your take on the reason for the lack of reincarnation in Christianity?) and I could not understand how she could just accept something as true simply because a flawed instituion like the church said it was true.

But over the years, i noticed something. my "superior" understanding of the spiritual path didn't seem to give me much advantage when it came to actually practicing the principles i had learned about. she often behaved more virtuously than I for example, or had stronger faith and more love and more grace. It was then I came to conclude, that at least in my own life, it was the practice of Christiany that was important and not any advanced understanding of the scriptures. There were many areas of myself which I knew need to be worked on and I found it much more productive to focus on those areas than to pursue more esoteric knowledge. For example, keeping the commandments. Just being a morally upright person was a difficult enough challenge for me. I knew the Bible said I needed to be morally upright. I did not need to read any special books to know that. I continue to find that the Bible challenges me to become a better person through the denial of my ego's neuroses. There is plenty to work on, even from a single book of the Bible and considering. In the Bible, Jesus tells us that he will give to us something very special, which he calls the holy spirit and that this special spirit, will become our teacher and teach us everything we need to know. To me, by recommending a book called "liberating the gospels" as your very first statement upon reading someone elses statement of faith, it implies to me that you think the gospels as they are, are lacking something or are too difficult to understand. This is where I feel like I disagree. While of course there is much, much more to learn about the Bible than what can be gleamed by a simple reading  without a thorough study of the history, i also dont think that the bible is necessarily deficient or incomplete as it is. Of course one will not understand everything, but one can certainly understand enough to point their soul in the direction of the living God. Then the Holy Spirit takes over and the spiritual path becomes much more a process of intuition, self discipline and love, than study of ancient myths and wisdom. Thats not to say I am against study, I am always trying to learn more about Christianity and I am interested in the book about Jesus and Yahweh you recommended. I believe that studying the scriptures is very important. But my point is, there is so much to know and one cannot know it all. Therefore, we should try to remember that we can commune with God directly in prayer or meditation and this is where our real, deep learning takes place.

Let me ask you this, do you really think the essence of Christ's teaching is so complicated that one must read all these books to understand it? I have enough trouble with the simple stuff, like learning to love God with all my heart and all my strength and all my mind and all my soul and my neighbor as myself. Isn't Christ's teaching very simple at heart? Where exactly is the problem with the OPs understanding?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: oropal]
    #18827559 - 09/11/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

oropal said:
I would also have to agree, it seems that deviate, is criticizing one extreme whilst pushing another. A bit contradictory. Very flawed intellectually, and philosophically.





There is one extreme on the spiritual path which I dont think can be over emphasized and that is the need to look within. As long as we are getting our knowledge from other people, from books, etc, regardless of how accurate it is, it is not the same as developing a keenly interned mind, or what Christians call having a personal relationship with Christ, santification, holiness, or whatever else you want to call it.


Quote:



If so have you ever stepped out of the beliefs, in which it may be a shock and quite difficult to contemplate(Grasp) that these beliefs, no matter how true they may or may not be in the end, have been pressed upon you.

Although you may feel inside the belief, it really has cam from outside first, then negating the power of the inner.

Now, since there are billions of interpretations of Christ alone, how would you be able to look at your beliefs, when, in fact, in the first instance, they are not your beliefs, but from other people that has been fed to you. And this is not to say that they are false. For arguments sake they could all be positively true.

But my argument is, how is it possible to consciously analyze ones beliefs that come from outwith and not within.


And I can use myself as an example. As being brought up catholic, I then went against the church (Chapel), god, Jesus and the bible et al. Then as I had came to a position of wiping away all my previous influences and conditioning (And this also true for other concepts which I held since swimming out of my mothers canal), to a point, where I as sentient being, contemplated these questions on my own, from my perspective, and not from others. I am actually reading the bible, which I had never done as a "Believer" and when I speak to believers they haven’t read much of it either, rather it seems they have been spoon-fed quotes and statements from their peers and leaders.

I think that it is not possible for you to have a truly open mind, if you are carrying the baggage of other peoples convictions and interpretations.




Its not really possible to avoid carrying that baggage. Our thinking is so conditioned by our society on all levels in ways we dont even realize.

Quote:


And we are guilty of this on all cognitive levels, as we are hardwired this way, to pass on knowledge wisdom etc, preserving the group etc etc. But this is all relative. And it seems, especially in America and Germany, which have one major common attribute, is that they have a huge christian following, and to the inquisitive person, alot of them are just following without thinking, and to my great surprise, most aren't ready to really live like Jesus, actually I do not believe most even understand the word of Christ, as they mostly understand the interpretation of Christ that has been shown to them.




In my opinion its not the interpretation that is the problem but the lack of zeal and perseverence on the part of the parishioners. I recently got into catholicism for instance and within the catholic tradition i have discovered an incredible wellspring of spiritual ideas, techniques, devotions, methods of prayer and deeply profound wisdom. Almost any western spiritual idea you can think of and even many ideas which resemble Buddhist and Hindu concepts, can be found somewhere within the catholic church's history. So what is wrong with the interpretation? For years I believed that mainstream Christianity was wrong and I limited my studies to gnostic, esoteric, and new age (yuck) Christianity. For some reason, I developed a bitter hatred for new age age Christianity and decided to go it from a more traditional perspective. To my surprise I found so many of the new age criticisms of orthodox christianity were just plain not true and virtually every spiritual idea I had found in new age Christianity existed in some form somewhere in orthodox christianity with only a few exceptions.

Anyway, one thing I have learned is that truly following Jesus requires a full commitment on your part and involves major sacrifice. Most people do not want to sacrifice all their desires for the love of Jesus and that is why mainstream christianity looks so bad. But it is the same in just about every other religion and Christian sect. In terms of catholicism i put some of the blame on the clergy. There are many excellent priests but even more mediocre ones. Priests really need to be true followers of Christ, otehrwise you just have the blind leading the blind, as Jesus warned. But Jesus also said, he who seeks finds and I believe that Christianity provides enough of a spiritual background to serve as a launching pad for any true seeker of God. It just requiresa a lot of faith and perseverence.


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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: HannahMichelle]
    #18827640 - 09/11/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HannahMichelle said:
No matter how open minded someone is, or how many times they claim to not believe in anything for whatever reason, they still have beliefs by which they operate. A major, important difference is some people have valid or understandable reason for their beliefs while some do not even have an understanding or reasoning of their own. I believe I do have valid reason for mine, but I'll never stop being open minded and stop to think about and consider another persons beliefs or view points.





Cool :thumbup:

Although I've never met someone who didn't have some understanding and plenty of reasoning for their own beliefs. You really have met someone like that? Not just someone who believed for reasons other than your own, but with a lack of reasons?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No matter how open minded someone is, they still have beliefs by which they operate. [Re: Deviate]
    #18827740 - 09/11/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Let me ask you this, do you really think the essence of Christ's teaching is so complicated that one must read all these books to understand it? 

An unqualified NO. Christ's teaching is simple, but not easy. That is not the issue. The issue is that most people fail to see the assumptions they live by their entire lives. Liberating the Gospels was the most important book on scriptures that I read since graduating from seminary in 1978. I read it in the early 2000s. If you value my experience as you say, then you should read this statement as a very powerful one. I read a lot of books in the 25 years between between 1978 and 2003. You don't HAVE to read it, but if you want to have your eyes opened, and your mind blown, by all means read the book. It is not light reading, and it took me a while longer than any of his other books, but this is the one to read. It is well documented and not a matter of one man's opinion. It illustrates liturgical, cultural, and etymological origins of single words that changes everything.

The entire notion of Mother Mary being a virgin, for example, is due to a mis-translation by the biblical author Matthew! How do we know? Because Matthew, like other Jews of the 1st century were reading the Tenach (OT) in Greek, not Hebrew. Greek was the lingua franca of that time, like English is today. The Greek Septuigint translated that passage in Isaiah 7:14,"Therefore will the Lord himself give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel." Now I pulled this from Wiki:

"The author of the Gospel of Matthew used the Septuagint's translation of the Hebrew word almah as the Greek parthenos (unequivocally a virgin) in support of his concept of the virgin birth of Jesus. Scholars agree that almah has nothing to do with virginity 'per se', but many conservative Christians still judge the acceptability of new Bible translations by the way they deal with Isaiah 7:14."

I found this on Google when I sought the Hebrew word for virgin - bertolah: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15498149#15498149 ; The notion of an infallible Bible is completely absurd. Why, the gospels selected for the canonical Bible weren't even labelled in the original Greek. The names of the apostles were added by redactors. If you understand that the mistranslation of one single word is responsible for (1) a majority of ancient Jews rejecting the NT as Greek mythology, and (2) as the rationale for centuries of Christian nuns to maintain their virginity in emulation of a mythic Mary who was not a virgin in the biological sense, and (3) the source for additional theological inventions like the Immaculate Conception of Mary herself, to make her free from the 'taint' of sexual intercourse, you can see an arithmetic progression of fabricated concepts that all derive from one word! :eek: Look at the history of the Catholic Church alone. Did you ever read a child's catechism book wherein an illustration of a family is labelled "Good," but an illustration of monks, nuns, and priests is labelled "Better/Best?" I have. The St. Joseph Baltimore Cathechism for young Catholic children that I once owned. Almost two millennia of celibacy has been promulgated, despite the original Hebrew writings which never valued celibacy.

I don't mind being criticized, especially when you have clearly stated the points of your objections. Yes, a young person's spiritual life should be encouraged, and I can be too harsh at times, but understand that I was deceived by my own false assumptions for far too long. My spirituality was part adult and two parts childish imaginings. Spong's book Zen-slapped me Awake. I didn't mind the pang because it worked. I HATE being deceived, even by myself. Many people do not want to be Awakened from their comforting illusions. I've heard young adults say to their parents, "When we get to Heaven..." and I really want to stop them and take issue with their child-like statement, but then I realize we're visiting someone in a hospital, we're not in a seminar room. It's not my place unless asked. I found this with regard to your question on reincarnation. I first read misinformation about the Council of Chalcedon in the book Autobiography of a Yogi that I read in 1975, as I was finishing college, but this is a scholarly response:

Dr. Paul R. Eddy, Associate Professor of Theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, Minnesota, responds:

"...First, The Council of Nicea, the first of the seven Ecumenical councils, took place in 325 A.D. It was concerned with the teachings of Arius and their implications for a correct understanding of the person of Jesus Christ. The documents from this Council offer no evidence that the topic of reincarnation ever came up for discussion, let alone that it was condemned and removed from the Bible. No doubt this claim means to refer, rather, to the fifth Ecumenical Council, held in 553--the Council of Constantinople. The primary purpose of this Council was to ease the tensions in the Church caused by the Council of Chalcedon 100 years previous. Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that the idea of reincarnation was ever discussed, let alone condemned and purged from the Bible. What the reincarnationists are probably referring to here is the condemnation of Origenism, which included belief in the pre-existence of the soul. This should not, however, be confused with the notions of the karmic cycle of reincarnation. This is clear from Origen's own words on this matter when he writes of "the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures." Other early theologians, including Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Gregory of Nyssa, also explicitly rejected the idea of reincarnation. Another problem with this theory is the fact that manuscripts of the Bible exist dating back to the third century. For example, the Bodmer Papyri (dated around 200-225), the Chester Beatty Papyri (dated around 200-250), Codex Vaticanus (dated around 325-350), and Codex Sinaiticus (dated around 340) are all documents written centuries prior to the 533 Council, and none of them reveal any supposed reincarnationist teachings that were removed from later editions of the Bible! Beyond this, it is known that the core canon of the Bible was essentially recognized and acknowledged throughout the orthodox Church as early as the late second and early third centuries, as evidenced by the list contained in the Muratorian Fragment (dated around 170). All of this points towards the impossibility of a conspiratorial purgation of the doctrine of reincarnation--or any other doctrine for that matter--from the Bible during any of the Ecumenical Councils." 

- http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4222727/k.4FCD/Was_Reincarnation_Ever_in_the_Bible.htm


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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