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InvisibleAleon
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Making Double-Extracts * 1
    #18814337 - 09/08/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, i have been soaking reishi, turkey tail, and lions mane in %95 alcohol for 1.5 months.  I am going to be making the second part of the double extract soon, but i had a few questions: What temperature and duration of time is the best for hot water extracts?  I have read some places to bring to a boil for 2-4 hours; others have said 90-95C (just under boiling) for 2 hours.  Anyone seen any scientific documents stating the optimal temp/duration for hot water extract?  Is it possible to "boil out" some of the constituents because of too high a temp? I find when drinking and making teas that ones i left just under boiling were not as bitter tasting as ones I let fully boil (bitterness meaning more constituents).  Can anyone shed some more light on this topic?

Also what is the best way to squeeze all the liquid out of the mushrooms (marc) after soaking?  I have read cheesecloth and your hands will work, but i was thinking of trying to use my centrifuge juicer.


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18816611 - 09/08/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Only thing I have been able to find is boil/simmer for two hours also.  I haven't been able to dig up any scientific papers on the subject but am still looking.

I understand Forrester makes Ganoderma tinctures and might be of some help here.

EDIT

From: "The Fungal Pharmacy" by: Robert Rogers Pg. 171:

"Weigh chopped fungus and add five times the amount, by volume, of 95 percent ethanol.  For example, use 100 grams to 500 milliliters of liquid.  Let this sit for two weeks. Strain and squeeze reserving the marc.  Then make a one-to-twenty decoction of the marc at a slow simmer. Reduce by half. Combine 30 percent alcohol with 70 percent decoction for a 30 percent extract. Easy! This recipe may be used with any of the medicinal polypores."

Dosage: 5-to-10 milliliters three times per day.



Edited by OICU812 (09/08/13 09:59 PM)


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OfflineJeff
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18816755 - 09/08/13 08:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

From "Mushrooms for Health"...
"Cook uncovered for two or more hours at just under boiling.  (190-200 F).  For woody species or when coarsely chopped simmer overnight."


--------------------
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Edited by Jeff (09/08/13 09:09 PM)


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Jeff]
    #18816779 - 09/08/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

One of the authors I follow who specializes in natural healing and natural antibiotics recommends all hot water extracts get at least 4 hours at just under boil, longer if possible. I usually try to do mine 10-12 hours. It's amazing the color that comes out of it after multiple water extractions.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: nanncee]
    #18817934 - 09/09/13 06:31 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for all the info guys.  I'm still curios as to why some people say to exract at just under a boil? Can constituents be boiled out?  I'm going to try the tea experiment again.  Today I'll make reishi tea just under a boil and tomorrow I'll make it at boiling.  Am I right to assume that more flavor/bitterness in the tea = more constituents extracted?  I know its low tech, but this is the way most foods are, the more intense the flavor ( when comparing 2 different apples for example) the more nutrients are in said food.

I'm very interested in making this the best I possibly can as I have been doing this whole process in a commercial kitchen and will probably sell 2 oz amber dropper bottles of the extract.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18818146 - 09/09/13 08:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Thanks for all the info guys.  I'm still curios as to why some people say to exract at just under a boil? Can constituents be boiled out?  I'm going to try the tea experiment again.  Today I'll make reishi tea just under a boil and tomorrow I'll make it at boiling.  Am I right to assume that more flavor/bitterness in the tea = more constituents extracted?  I know its low tech, but this is the way most foods are, the more intense the flavor ( when comparing 2 different apples for example) the more nutrients are in said food.

I'm very interested in making this the best I possibly can as I have been doing this whole process in a commercial kitchen and will probably sell 2 oz amber dropper bottles of the extract.




From my understanding a hard boil for long periods has the potential to destroy some of the good compounds. But I have never seen a scientific study proving this. I think you are right on with the bitterness though.

Good idea on selling this stuff. I have been giving this a consideration as well. It's a weekly thing at market for people to ask us if we sell reishi already extracted because they don't want to take the hassle of doing so. Do you know if there are any regulations other than commercial kitchen? This is one thing I have not looked into yet and the one real thing holding us back from doing this.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: nanncee]
    #18818214 - 09/09/13 09:03 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I've read so many sources say different things on this.  And like nanncee said, there never seems to be much scientific backing on any of it (at least what I read, maybe there is some)  The only study I've actually ran across was with chaga and it was found to be ineffective when only steeped and not boiled.  (I'm just going by memory, I could look it up again, it's in Christopher Hobbs Medicinal Mushrooms)

I think the thing is, there's so many different compounds in the mushrooms, and they're going to have different properties.  Some of them might be lost in a full strength boil, but other good ones might not be extracted if you don't boil.  I personally do a full-on boil for an hour to two hours, because it seems like more things I've read lean towards that.  I'd rather risk some obscure compound being lost than not extracting important ones, and the extract I've done this way has already proven very helpful for my wife in treating several symptoms, so it doesn't seem to me like I'm losing much by doing a full boil.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18831273 - 09/12/13 06:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I appreciate the info.  I think im going to do both :ooo:  When making the hot water extract im going to do 2 separate batches of water and mix them together.  First batch cook at 90-95C for hours.  Then strain out the marc and set aside 1st h2o extract; then put the marc in fresh h2o and full boil for hours.  Then mix the 2.  This way if different things are extracted at different temps i will get both.  This is what i do now with my teas.  The first cup i drink is from 90-95C; the second cup i fully boiled it.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18831549 - 09/12/13 08:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
I appreciate the info.  I think im going to do both :ooo:  When making the hot water extract im going to do 2 separate batches of water and mix them together.  First batch cook at 90-95C for hours.  Then strain out the marc and set aside 1st h2o extract; then put the marc in fresh h2o and full boil for hours.  Then mix the 2.  This way if different things are extracted at different temps i will get both.  This is what i do now with my teas.  The first cup i drink is from 90-95C; the second cup i fully boiled it.




that's not a bad idea, may have to try that on my next batch. Keep us updated if you end up doing this and selling it, really interested to see how that goes.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18832053 - 09/12/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
I appreciate the info.  I think im going to do both :ooo:  When making the hot water extract im going to do 2 separate batches of water and mix them together.  First batch cook at 90-95C for hours.  Then strain out the marc and set aside 1st h2o extract; then put the marc in fresh h2o and full boil for hours.  Then mix the 2.  This way if different things are extracted at different temps i will get both.  This is what i do now with my teas.  The first cup i drink is from 90-95C; the second cup i fully boiled it.




That sounds like a great way to do it.  I might give that a shot for my next one :thumbup:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18832154 - 09/12/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Im going to be making it in the next couple of days; ill post pics of the final product when bottle and labeled.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18832267 - 09/12/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OICU812 said:
Only thing I have been able to find is boil/simmer for two hours also.  I haven't been able to dig up any scientific papers on the subject but am still looking.

I understand Forrester makes Ganoderma tinctures and might be of some help here.

EDIT

From: "The Fungal Pharmacy" by: Robert Rogers Pg. 171:

"Weigh chopped fungus and add five times the amount, by volume, of 95 percent ethanol.  For example, use 100 grams to 500 milliliters of liquid.  Let this sit for two weeks. Strain and squeeze reserving the marc.  Then make a one-to-twenty decoction of the marc at a slow simmer. Reduce by half. Combine 30 percent alcohol with 70 percent decoction for a 30 percent extract. Easy! This recipe may be used with any of the medicinal polypores."

Dosage: 5-to-10 milliliters three times per day.





i have used this recipe and it is A GOOD ONE although i would suggest if you are planning on marketing this product and selling it in bottles, to proof it up a bit to provide longer shelf life.  most commercial 2x tinctures are 37 to 45% alcohol.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18835885 - 09/13/13 07:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the tip.  The tincture i have from eclectic institute is only %25 alcohol and they are a larger company.  I think im going to go with %30 alcohol.  How did you strain the tincture from the marc?


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18836612 - 09/13/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

muslim which is very fine cheese cloth  you can ring it out.  Ideally you would use an herb press, but they are expensive.


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18842818 - 09/14/13 11:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

I have created a small spreadsheet in XLS format to help when creating Double Extracts.  This spreadsheet allows you to enter the percentage of alcohol used in the first extract and the desired alcohol percentage when you blend the alcohol extract with the water extract.  It will calculate the amount of extract water to add to achieve the desired alcohol percentage and also the final volume of the finished extract. 

You are free to use, share, enjoy and suggest changes.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18843746 - 09/15/13 08:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Nice, thanks for the spreadsheet calculator.  It works well, and makes it very easy.  Nothing big, but i would prefer all measurements in metric.  It so much easier to work with; for anything.

One other thing about the alcohol extract potency.  SO according to the fungal pharmacy recipe 100g dried mush --> 500ml alcohol did not work for me.  It was not enough to cover the mushrooms. So i ended up doing 100g to 1L ratio.  Once strained should i allow the alcohol to evaporate off, leaving 1\2 of the original tincture?  I am just worried at the 1 to 10 ratio i used that it will reduce potency of the final product.  Anyone have any tips/info on ratios of dry mush to alcohol?


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18844126 - 09/15/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Nice, thanks for the spreadsheet calculator.  It works well, and makes it very easy.  Nothing big, but i would prefer all measurements in metric.  It so much easier to work with; for anything.




Column E has the milliliter conversion of column C, but I will mod to give the choice of entering values in ML or OZ. Thanks.

Quote:

Aleon said:One other thing about the alcohol extract potency.  SO according to the fungal pharmacy recipe 100g dried mush --> 500ml alcohol did not work for me.  It was not enough to cover the mushrooms. So i ended up doing 100g to 1L ratio.  Once strained should i allow the alcohol to evaporate off, leaving 1\2 of the original tincture?  I am just worried at the 1 to 10 ratio i used that it will reduce potency of the final product.  Anyone have any tips/info on ratios of dry mush to alcohol?




If you do that, don't forget to calculate the extra water that will be left behind from the original volume of alcohol and reduce the added water extract accordingly.

BTW, I had to do the same thing, but I figured I would just take 10 milliliters three times per day instead of 5.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


Edited by OICU812 (09/15/13 11:15 AM)


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18844179 - 09/15/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

one question. When you are covering the reishi with alcohol, are you starting with fresh or dried reishi? if it's dry, wont it absorb the alcohol and bring the level down until it's not covered anymore? add more alcohol at that point, or just shake it everyday?


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: deadmandave]
    #18844286 - 09/15/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Once strained should i allow the alcohol to evaporate off, leaving 1\2 of the original tincture? 



I wouldn't just let it evaporate that is unless you used 100% alcohol.  You'll lose water and alcohol and at different rates.  I would think that would make it difficult to calculate the % alcohol in your end product.  Do like OIC did or maybe a less aggressive squeeze when straining the alcohol and reduce it out during your boil.
Quote:

deadmandave said:
one question. When you are covering the reishi with alcohol, are you starting with fresh or dried reishi? if it's dry, wont it absorb the alcohol and bring the level down until it's not covered anymore? add more alcohol at that point, or just shake it everyday?



Start with dry.  It is hard or dang near impossible to calculate the final ratios otherwise.
It does absorb but does so fairly quick. You need to keep it covered otherwise it will mold.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18844338 - 09/15/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
SO according to the fungal pharmacy recipe 100g dried mush --> 500ml alcohol did not work for me.  It was not enough to cover the mushrooms. So i ended up doing 100g to 1L ratio.




100g per 1L is what I use every time as well.  Works great for G. lucidum, G. tsugae, and G. applanatum.  Chaga you can use more like 180g/L if you powder it pretty well.  Stuff is heavy, and doesn't expand when wet like some Ganodermas.

Jeff that's a good point about evaporation, losing alcohol as well as water at unknown rates.  That's why I've never messed with evaporating it.  Even if you did have 100% ethanol, I think it might end up absorbing some unknown amount of water from the air, although I could be wrong on this I'm not much of a chemist.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18844547 - 09/15/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I had to look it up but you're right Forrester ethanol is hygroscopic.


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Jeff]
    #18845488 - 09/15/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Being a long time brewer, I can calculate the alcohol content of a finished product using a hygrometer, however, being the lazy old fart that I am and knowing that the primary purpose for alcohol in the tincture after extraction is as a preservative, I tend to make sure I have at least the minimal acceptable amount plus a little more and go with that.  In my way of thinking, a little extra alcohol can only make the day a little better!


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18845515 - 09/15/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OICU812 said:
In my way of thinking, a little extra alcohol can only make the day a little better!






:thumbup: :rofldrunk: :thumbup:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


Edited by Forrester (09/15/13 06:05 PM)


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18845552 - 09/15/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Nice, thanks for the spreadsheet calculator.  It works well, and makes it very easy.  Nothing big, but i would prefer all measurements in metric.  It so much easier to work with; for anything.

One other thing about the alcohol extract potency.  SO according to the fungal pharmacy recipe 100g dried mush --> 500ml alcohol did not work for me.  It was not enough to cover the mushrooms. So i ended up doing 100g to 1L ratio.  Once strained should i allow the alcohol to evaporate off, leaving 1\2 of the original tincture?  I am just worried at the 1 to 10 ratio i used that it will reduce potency of the final product.  Anyone have any tips/info on ratios of dry mush to alcohol?



Did you pulverize it?  We run it thru a hammer mill. Turns it into flour. Then that should be plenty of alcohol to cover it.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18845649 - 09/15/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Did you pulverize it?  We run it thru a hammer mill. Turns it into flour. Then that should be plenty of alcohol to cover it.




I powder mine completely in a coffee grinder, but to correct myself from earlier - it's not a 100g to 1L of alcohol ratio - it's 100g plus however much alcohol it takes to fill the quart(~L) jar.  I've never actually measured how much alcohol that was... Ends up with the mushroom mass about an inch from the level of the alcohol though, about perfect.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #18845961 - 09/15/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)
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Revised version of Tincture calculator attached with both English and Metric versions as suggested by Aleon.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18846101 - 09/15/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the tips :thumbup:  I just going to skip evaporating off any alcohol and just up the dosage as suggested.  Also i may then go with a higher alcohol % in the final D-extract; around %40.

I put the dried mushrooms into a high speed blender and they all turned to powder.  Everything i used was cracker/bone dry.  The turkey tail turned into a cottony like substance after blending it was weird, and its dry volume was larger than the rest of the species after powdering.

Quote:

OICU812 said:
Revised version of Tincture calculator attached with both English and Metric versions as suggested by Aleon.



Thanks alot; this is a nifty tool :mushroom2:


--------------------
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18846173 - 09/15/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah next time I do turkey tail it will be outside. That fluff goes everywhere.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Jeff]
    #18846235 - 09/15/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jeff said:
Yeah next time I do turkey tail it will be outside. That fluff goes everywhere.





:lol:

I remember you saying this somewhere else, I just harvested my first batch and I'm waiting to enjoy the fun.  Cutting/pulling them apart I definitely got some cottony-stretchiness going on.  But even after cracker dry, eh?  Looking forward.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18846264 - 09/15/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Worse when cracker dry. Just like cotton when you blend it.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Jeff]
    #18869489 - 09/20/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

Just found this article and chart on Determining Alcohol Percentage which I thought would be interesting to some here who make double extracts.  Table for the above linked article is attached.


--------------------
--------------
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18902742 - 09/28/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I find one kilo of reishi (dry or fresh) is covered by 3 liters of water, this is the ration I use in all my polyporuoous extracts.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #18902984 - 09/28/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lennybernadino said:
I find one kilo of reishi (dry or fresh) is covered by 3 liters of water, this is the ration I use in all my polyporuoous extracts.




IM not sure how that works since i couldn't even cover 100g of powdered dried mushrooms with 500ml ( = 1Kg/5L ratio.)


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18903484 - 09/28/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Quote:

Lennybernadino said:
I find one kilo of reishi (dry or fresh) is covered by 3 liters of water, this is the ration I use in all my polyporuoous extracts.




IM not sure how that works since i couldn't even cover 100g of powdered dried mushrooms with 500ml ( = 1Kg/5L ratio.)




Also, dry OR fresh?  That's going to be vastly different amounts  :confused:


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18904384 - 09/28/13 08:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

logically speaking yes but it somehow works out that the same amount of liquid is needed to cover it.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #18904454 - 09/28/13 08:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It makes the final product a bit iffy though.  Easier to start with dry for the math.  Wet is a gamble, you may end up with a tincture that has way less alcohol than what is necessary to preserve it.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Jeff]
    #18906473 - 09/29/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So im working on my labels now, but i had a few questions about dosage.  So i have read the 5-10ml 1-3 times a day, but if this is true how come all the liquid products i have bought say 15-30 drops(1-2ML) 1-2 times per day? Is there something i am missing here?  If you had to take 10-30ml/day the standard 60ml amber dropper bottle used for selling D-Extracts would only last 2-3 days? :shrug: Any tips are greatly appreciated


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18906583 - 09/29/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
So im working on my labels now, but i had a few questions about dosage.  So i have read the 5-10ml 1-3 times a day, but if this is true how come all the liquid products i have bought say 15-30 drops(1-2ML) 1-2 times per day? Is there something i am missing here?  If you had to take 10-30ml/day the standard 60ml amber dropper bottle used for selling D-Extracts would only last 2-3 days? :shrug: Any tips are greatly appreciated




I've read many different dosages, I think most authors just kind of make up an amount.  5-10ml seems kinda high though, to me, and 15 drops seems really low.  I go with what Greg Marley recommends, which is right in the middle of those.  2.5ml (1/2tsp) 1-2x a day.  Seems to be effective at that dosage, for the people I've given it to.  I bottle my tinctures in 4oz amber bottles, which gives you pretty close to 50 doses per bottle.

Are you going to be selling your tinctures at farmer's markets?


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18906900 - 09/29/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks forrester; i think im going to put: 15-30 drops(1-2ml), 1-3 times per day. This would be 1-6ml/day (equaling 60-10 days worth in one 60ml vial.) For right now this will work; maybe someday i can get a distiller and evap off a bunch of the alcohol to dramatically increase the potency. :crazy: Ill post pics once im done with the labels mid-week. 

And yes, im planning on selling them at markets, to co-ops in the Madison, WI area, and online through our website.  Im going to sell them for $15/60ml vial when direct bought from us (and then on the shelves/for re-sellers it can be marked up to $20/vial.)  This is very excited for me; my dreams are beginning to manifest themselves in this physical reality. :aliendance:


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18907037 - 09/29/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That's awesome man, have you looked into the licensing and other legality issues for selling tinctures?  I've been trying to do the same thing and have talked to the department of agriculture. 
In order to process any mushrooms I'm going to of course need a food processing license.  He said there might be other issues with FDA (selling them as "medicinal") or possibly issues with there being alcohol in it and being able to sell that.  I'm sure the FDA issue could be gotten around with the standard "this product is not intended...blah blah" warning, but the alcohol thing I wasn't sure about.  Have you looked into these things?


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18908043 - 09/29/13 05:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
That's awesome man, have you looked into the licensing and other legality issues for selling tinctures?  I've been trying to do the same thing and have talked to the department of agriculture. 
In order to process any mushrooms I'm going to of course need a food processing license.  He said there might be other issues with FDA (selling them as "medicinal") or possibly issues with there being alcohol in it and being able to sell that.  I'm sure the FDA issue could be gotten around with the standard "this product is not intended...blah blah" warning, but the alcohol thing I wasn't sure about.  Have you looked into these things?




I wonder if alcohol will be an issue or not.  Go to your cupboard and look at a bottle of vanilla extract.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18912016 - 09/30/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OICU812 said:
Quote:

Forrester said:
That's awesome man, have you looked into the licensing and other legality issues for selling tinctures?  I've been trying to do the same thing and have talked to the department of agriculture. 
In order to process any mushrooms I'm going to of course need a food processing license.  He said there might be other issues with FDA (selling them as "medicinal") or possibly issues with there being alcohol in it and being able to sell that.  I'm sure the FDA issue could be gotten around with the standard "this product is not intended...blah blah" warning, but the alcohol thing I wasn't sure about.  Have you looked into these things?




I wonder if alcohol will be an issue or not.  Go to your cupboard and look at a bottle of vanilla extract.





We have been trying to research this and would love to hear what everyone knows.

What I have learned so far is that it varies by state on whether you need a license for the alcohol.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: nanncee]
    #18915068 - 10/01/13 08:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I am attempting to find out all the rules and follow them. The funniest thing is its not easy to find definitive rules (obviously a loophole to make it easier to prosecute producers and keep the small businesses out).  Im not planning on making much $ or even moving alot, so i dont think i will come up on the radar anyways.  I will update after i talk to some more state officials about this.  Also we have decided we are not selling the product.  We are giving it away, but with a suggested donation.  IF some1 wants it for free i will give it to them.  I just want the, what we have termed "Vibrational essences", of these mushrooms to be out there and available.  I made this with my mind, intent, and energy.  I light fasted, meditated, prayed, and danced to the Gods during the whole process to embue them with vibrational energies.

Another thing to note is, what happened to Jesus? Or john lenin, or the dalai lama when they stood up for love in the face of evil?  They were persecuted by the very people they were trying to help; some like Jesus were even ridiculed and killed.  Being a force for good inevitably faces opposition from the mass evil within us all. I am done running, hiding; i am standing up for what is good and what is right.  Most people who do what is right and embody love get persecuted (especially by the gov.), as i already have been.  I have remained in the shadows since, and im ready for the next round.  I will lose; but ironically when you lose here you win in the afterlife.  As this land is the land of the dead. This is what the Buddha says:  We all will die, no one escapes his own death here. When we die here, we can wake up to true/eternal existence if we are attuned to it.  If not we re-collide with the infinite to have our essence be re-purposed. I am doing whats right not for any personal gain, but because im doing my best, with all my heart, to do what i beleive is right/pure.  Helping people with the tools you have been given is right. Not doing so because of persecution means that the fear of loss (of things which will die eventually anyways) has overtaken the courage needed to fill others with love in the land of the dead(which is here, the place where everything must die). With love, instead of fear, a person can be changed from a dying, stiff withering tree to a loving, living, flexible blade of grass swaying in the wind.

On a final note, there may not be anyone to oversee/inspect these products soon anyways after this government "shutdown".  The FDA inspections will mostly be curtailed because of lack of funding. http://calorielab.com/labnotes/20110408/government-shutdown-fda-food-drug-inspections/


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18916168 - 10/01/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Good Manufacturing Practices stuff.  Here is the scoop. 
In a nutshell, it is a shit load of paperwork.  you must first develop a Master Manufacturing Record (MMR), which documents your product overview, recipe, equipment, etc.  Basically, what you would need if you were going to make the product.  Next, you need a form called a Batch Process Record.  This is a form which documents what you actually DID when you made a batch of product, and how it differed, if it did, from the MMR.  Note that these are not standard cookie cutter forms that you fill out.  You generate these forms yourself.  like is said its a shit load of paperwork.  if you are selling to "clients"  you do not need all this.  if you are trying to get your product into other retail stores, whole foods for example then you do.  for instance, acupuncture clinics sell all kinds of unregulated tinctures and pills to their "clients" without any regs.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18917745 - 10/01/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
Good Manufacturing Practices stuff.  Here is the scoop. 
In a nutshell, it is a shit load of paperwork.  you must first develop a Master Manufacturing Record (MMR), which documents your product overview, recipe, equipment, etc.  Basically, what you would need if you were going to make the product.  Next, you need a form called a Batch Process Record.  This is a form which documents what you actually DID when you made a batch of product, and how it differed, if it did, from the MMR.  Note that these are not standard cookie cutter forms that you fill out.  You generate these forms yourself.  like is said its a shit load of paperwork.  if you are selling to "clients"  you do not need all this.  if you are trying to get your product into other retail stores, whole foods for example then you do.  for instance, acupuncture clinics sell all kinds of unregulated tinctures and pills to their "clients" without any regs.




this is very good to know.  is this just a NC thing, or a federal thing?  :thumbup:


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: drake89]
    #18917858 - 10/01/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

FDA pal.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18918701 - 10/01/13 10:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
Good Manufacturing Practices stuff.  Here is the scoop. 
In a nutshell, it is a shit load of paperwork.  you must first develop a Master Manufacturing Record (MMR), which documents your product overview, recipe, equipment, etc.  Basically, what you would need if you were going to make the product.  Next, you need a form called a Batch Process Record.  This is a form which documents what you actually DID when you made a batch of product, and how it differed, if it did, from the MMR.  Note that these are not standard cookie cutter forms that you fill out.  You generate these forms yourself.  like is said its a shit load of paperwork.  if you are selling to "clients"  you do not need all this.  if you are trying to get your product into other retail stores, whole foods for example then you do.  for instance, acupuncture clinics sell all kinds of unregulated tinctures and pills to their "clients" without any regs.





Awesome info, that's a good idea about the "client" thing, I had actually wondered about that...

So, do you think giving them away w/suggested donataion, a la ALeon's idea would get around all that paper work as well?

I'm really only looking to be able to set up a table at a local farmers market, not get into Whole Foods or anything.  Do most people just go for it and hope nobody that cares notices?  I mean if I was department of agriculture compliant, I'm guessing the FDA doesn't send a whole lot of reps out to police farmer's markets...?


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18919698 - 10/02/13 06:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Title 21: Food and Drugs
PART 111—CURRENT GOOD MANUFACTURING PRACTICE IN MANUFACTURING, PACKAGING, LABELING, OR HOLDING OPERATIONS FOR DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS

§ 111.1  Who is subject to this part?


(a) Except as provided by paragraph (b) of this section, you are subject to this part if you manufacture, package, label, or hold a dietary supplement, including:

(1) A dietary supplement you manufacture but that is packaged or labeled by another person; and

(2) A dietary supplement imported or offered for import in any State or territory of the United States, the District of Columbia, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.

(b) The requirements pertaining to holding dietary supplements do not apply to you if you are holding those dietary supplements at a retail establishment for the sole purpose of direct retail sale to individual consumers. A retail establishment does not include a warehouse or other storage facility for a retailer or a warehouse or other storage facility that sells directly to individual consumers.

21 CFR part 111 subpart E requires that quality control personnel review and approve a justification of why meeting in-process specifications in combination with component specifications will ensure all product specifications are met for identity, purity, strength, and composition and the limits for contamination of microbiological, heavy metals, and other applicable contaminants. For example, drying a wet granulation would usually need a specification for moisture content to ensure the granulation is properly dried. A solution being adjusted to a certain pH would require a specification for pH. Specifications for weight, hardness, and thickness are typical for tablets during tablet compression. Encapsulation operations would require specifications for fill weight.

It is a requirement that you monitor in-process points, steps, or stages where control is necessary and be able to detect deviations that occur at those points.  Deviations at the in-process control points should initiate an out of specification investigation to trace back to the root cause and determine if additional control points are necessary to ensure the batch is meeting all specifications throughout the manufacturing process.



You can read more at this website, or at the US Goveco e-CFR Data site.


Edited by OICU812 (10/02/13 08:14 PM)


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18924926 - 10/03/13 08:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
FDA pal.




Thanks for all the info man :bow2:  When you say FDA, are there inspections?  DO you have to register with them?  Or do you just have these forms available for them if the decide to inspect you?

OICU is this information government regulated/mandated? The website is not a .gov  Also i cant really understand much of it; why do they do this with everything?  All political/gov documents are written like they are "beating around the bush".  I wish they would just get to the point and say it in English, but that would allow people who cannot afford legal protection/advice (small businesses) a chance to do things alongside coporate mega's.  And they wouldn't want that to happen, a small business may be able to create a superior product through devotion to what the producer does; whereas large corps. only devotion is to money not the quality of their products or their consumers reactions.

Im almost done with labels should have pics up today or tomorrow :eek:


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18924996 - 10/03/13 08:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

they do inspect you.  they generally let you know when they are coming but they can call anytime and request your info.  all these regs are less than 3 years old.  prior to that it was a free for all.  you could sell a dietary suppliment in a tincture bottle with little or no regulation and you could sell it anywhere.  so, the gov. is still a bit new on these regs as well as the producers. i learned this info from a guy making whole plant tinctures of goldenseal and blood root.  He spent 80,000$ in grant money to develop his products but now he is out of money and cannot produce them.  most of his money was spent on dealing with regs and also chemical analysis of his products ( note:  you do not have to have your product chemically analyzed.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18925969 - 10/03/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
they do inspect you.  they generally let you know when they are coming but they can call anytime and request your info.  all these regs are less than 3 years old.  prior to that it was a free for all.  you could sell a dietary suppliment in a tincture bottle with little or no regulation and you could sell it anywhere.  so, the gov. is still a bit new on these regs as well as the producers. i learned this info from a guy making whole plant tinctures of goldenseal and blood root.  He spent 80,000$ in grant money to develop his products but now he is out of money and cannot produce them.  most of his money was spent on dealing with regs and also chemical analysis of his products ( note:  you do not have to have your product chemically analyzed.




$80K down the drain, WOWZA.  similar situation to a local food distributor operating out of the warehouse I'm growing in.  they've almost burned through 50K in grant money, and are not self sufficient.


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18926254 - 10/03/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
OICU is this information government regulated/mandated? The website is not a .gov  Also i cant really understand much of it; why do they do this with everything?  All political/gov documents are written like they are "beating around the bush".  I wish they would just get to the point and say it in English, but that would allow people who cannot afford legal protection/advice (small businesses) a chance to do things alongside coporate mega's.  And they wouldn't want that to happen, a small business may be able to create a superior product through devotion to what the producer does; whereas large corps. only devotion is to money not the quality of their products or their consumers reactions.

Im almost done with labels should have pics up today or tomorrow :eek:




The second link: e-CFR Data is the .gov website where the official "CFR" regs live.  Read them one at a time starting at the top.

There are online GMP course training websites like this one from dicentra.  You can take these courses at your leasure, get your certificate, register with the FDA and produce your product.

If you are at all familiar with ISO-9000 type quality systems used by general manufacturing, this one seems to be similar.  After you dig around a while, you will find and learn what you need at a reasonable cost if you are persistent.  You either need the money to pay someone else to do it for you or the time to learn and implement the system yourself.



--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


Edited by OICU812 (10/03/13 03:10 PM)


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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18928505 - 10/03/13 10:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Also i cant really understand much of it; why do they do this with everything?  All political/gov documents are written like they are "beating around the bush".  I wish they would just get to the point and say it in English, but that would allow people who cannot afford legal protection/advice (small businesses) a chance to do things alongside coporate mega's.  And they wouldn't want that to happen, a small business may be able to create a superior product through devotion to what the producer does; whereas large corps. only devotion is to money not the quality of their products or their consumers reactions.




My thoughts exactly!  :confused:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18930568 - 10/04/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the info OICU. 

Here are the pictures of the final product:



--------------------
Mushroom medicines available at:
www.swordandshieldwellness.com


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Offlinepseudotsuga
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18930818 - 10/04/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Thanks for the info OICU. 

Here are the pictures of the final product:






Very Nice Aleon!
Those labels look legit.:thumbup:


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18931833 - 10/04/13 03:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Thanks for the info OICU. 

Here are the pictures of the final product:






Good looking packaging.  I hope you do well.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #18936362 - 10/05/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Has anyone made double extracts with chaga? Just met a oyster/LM farmer and he also has wild chaga.  Thinking about getting bulk and making some extract.


--------------------
Mushroom medicines available at:
www.swordandshieldwellness.com


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Aleon]
    #18936798 - 10/05/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Has anyone made double extracts with chaga? Just met a oyster/LM farmer and he also has wild chaga.  Thinking about getting bulk and making some extract.




Yeah I've made them with chaga, works nicely.  I used 180g per quart jar, more than with most other mushrooms. 

Powdered chaga has such small particles it's nearly impossible to filter so I just let my extractions settle overnight, most of the particles will settle out, then just take the liquid off the top.

And watch out, it will dye the hell out of just about anything it touches.  I usually boil and strain several times, then boil all that down to get it super concentrated.  You'll still be pulling a lot of color (and I assume medicinals) out of the chaga mass even on the 3rd or 4th boil.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18942206 - 10/06/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks forrester, i was assuming id need to change the ratio of dry weight to volume.


--------------------
Mushroom medicines available at:
www.swordandshieldwellness.com


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Forrester]
    #18943908 - 10/07/13 09:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

Aleon said:
Has anyone made double extracts with chaga? Just met a oyster/LM farmer and he also has wild chaga.  Thinking about getting bulk and making some extract.




Yeah I've made them with chaga, works nicely.  I used 180g per quart jar, more than with most other mushrooms. 

Powdered chaga has such small particles it's nearly impossible to filter so I just let my extractions settle overnight, most of the particles will settle out, then just take the liquid off the top.

And watch out, it will dye the hell out of just about anything it touches.  I usually boil and strain several times, then boil all that down to get it super concentrated.  You'll still be pulling a lot of color (and I assume medicinals) out of the chaga mass even on the 3rd or 4th boil.




using a  brewers siphon tube made for decanting wort or wine works well.  It has a little end that sits on the bottom in the sediment and keeps it from being sucked up into the tube.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18947178 - 10/07/13 10:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
using a  brewers siphon tube made for decanting wort or wine works well.  It has a little end that sits on the bottom in the sediment and keeps it from being sucked up into the tube.




Yep, I've got one of those, didn't think of using it for that, good idea!


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlinerev0kadavur
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: OICU812]
    #19671655 - 03/09/14 01:33 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Is there anywhere else to download this as a non-zip file?
Or just a place to view it online?

My WinZip expired :frown:


--------------------
- Question # Everything -



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OfflineStupendous-Yappi
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: rev0kadavur]
    #19671829 - 03/09/14 02:18 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

rev0kadavur said:
Is there anywhere else to download this as a non-zip file?
Or just a place to view it online?

My WinZip expired :frown:



7-zip is a free program that can open zip files and a lot of other archive type files.


--------------------
Trade List


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OfflineTetragammatron
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Stupendous-Yappi]
    #21698871 - 05/19/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I'm having trouble calculating what ratio of tincture to use to the decoction.

The values I'm putting in are giving me figures that don't make sense... if someone can check my calcs and maybe just humour me as I work through this I'd really appreciate it! :wink:

OK - I have approx 2000ml of Chaga extracted in 37.5% (70 Proof) alcohol. Chaga is strained out.
I'm ready to do the decoction, so I believe that I will need to begin with the same volume of water (2000ml)  to match potencies of the solutions, then reduce down to the right volume so that the final ABV is 30%

Now, putting it in the caluclator, it suggests that with 2000ml of (strained) tincture, I will need to add a volume of water/decoction (once extracted, reduced, and strained) at around 500ml.

Is that right?

Start decoction with 2000ml water, then reduce down to 500ml and add to the tincture .. and that will give an ABV of 30%?

Somehow my brain won't accept it and am just posting here to get confirmation that the final ABV will be 30% AND that I am still mixing a similar potency of tincture/decoction?

It's been a long day!  :hypnotic:


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OfflineMigraine
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Tetragammatron]
    #21699035 - 05/19/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

You state 2000ml of Chaga extracted in 70 proof alcohol -- THAT is just liquid correct?

That means your 2000ml is composed of (2000 * .35 = 700ml alcohol and 1300ml water.)

If you want to end up with a final double extraction tincture of 30% or 60 proof -- you need to do an alcohol extraction with a higher proof alcohol.

Using your numbers -- you want a final double extraction tincture to be 30% or 60 proof.

So take the REAL alcohol you have from your extraction (700ml) and calculate total volume for a 30% (60 proof) mix

700 / .3 = 2333ml.  Now subtract out of that your real alcohol leaving water.

2333 - 700 = 1533ml.

Remember - you already have 1300ml of water in you alcohol extraction so you have to reduce your water extraction liquid down to (1533 - 1300 = 233ml).

So -- you take your existing 2000ml of liquid from your 70 proof alcohol extraction -- add in 233ml of liquid from your water extraction and you will have a total volume of 2233ml at 30% or 60 proof.

Sanity check ... 700 real alcohol / 2233 (total liquid) = 31%.

Hope that helps.


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OfflineTetragammatron
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Migraine]
    #21699108 - 05/19/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

That does help, thanks @Migrane

I think I'm still confused!

The 2000ml chaga extract is JUST the alcohol left after I have soaked and strained the chaga material out (At apx 200g Chaga/1 Litre Alcohol) - no water added yet. The original bottled vodka abv is 37.5%

I'm asking what volume of water I need to reduce the decoction down to to get the maximum concentration of water soluble constituents in ratio so the abv is 30%.

But, when you say this:

"So -- you take your existing 2000ml of liquid from your 70 proof alcohol extraction -- add in 233ml of liquid from your water extraction and you will have a total volume of 2233ml at 30% or 60 proof."

It sounds a lot more sensible. So in essence I have to put 2000ml of water on the chaga material, reduce down to apx 233ml, then combine. Yes?

It's setting in, slowly!


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OfflineMigraine
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Tetragammatron]
    #21699125 - 05/19/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

You may be able to use less that 2000ml of water to perform your water extraction with -- but in the end, no matter how much water you use  -- you only want 233ml left.


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OfflineTetragammatron
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Re: Making Double-Extracts [Re: Migraine]
    #21699170 - 05/19/15 04:57 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I understand...eventually!
Worked it through  few times now and I'm happy to proceed.

Thanks @Migrane, really appreciate it.


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