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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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On endospores
    #18809487 - 09/06/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

My roommate is a bio chemist and a thread recently brought up the topic (yet again) of whether pressure cooking kills everything or not, whether the mycelium is 'racing against the contamination before it takes over' and the often cited reasoning behind this thinking is that endospores can survive in extremely hostile environments for a long time.

After hearing him laugh his ass off at me and then proceeding to lecture me this is what I have walked away with.

Thesis:  If you're pressure cooking a mason jar sized container or anything that will fit inside a commercially available pressure cooker at 15 PSI you really really really DON'T need to be concerned about endospores.  Because...

1)  Only a few kinds of bacteria have the phenomena of endospore creation.  Some of these bacteria are more common than others.  If you're making pf tek jars for example the chances of your ingredients coming into contact with one of these bacteria is probably pretty low.  STILL entirely possible though.

2)  Assuming you jar and ingredients or spatula or hands or whatever WAS in contact with a lot of these bacteria you still probably have nothing to worry about.  This is because.

3) The creation of endospores basically (not in all cases but in MOST) only happens when the bacteria 'realizes' that the environment is becoming hostile which leads to

4)  The formation (or rather the 'changing') from living bacteria to dormant endospore which TAKES TIME.  Just like cell division takes time.  And the process is typically much slower than cell division.  Therefor...

5)  In the off chance that your substrate IS contaminated with one of the FEW kinds of bacteria that can 'hibernate' as an endospore and  you are heating your pressure cooker on the stoves 'high' setting bringing the temperature and pressure up quickly the bacteria will most likely never even have the time necessary to form an endospore before the whole cell is destroyed out-right by the heat.

So there is no 'race' because you jars PROBABLY are going to be sterile assuming you pressure cooked it for a while and brought the heat up quickly.

Any other contamination is due to human error.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

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Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809494 - 09/06/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:11 AM)


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809495 - 09/06/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So you bitch slapped a bio chemist with his own medicine?

Nice!


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809505 - 09/06/13 09:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

No you misunderstand.

He was laughing at the whole 'mycelium racing against the endospores' idea...


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809517 - 09/06/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

O I C  Gotcha.....lol......my bad..


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18809533 - 09/06/13 09:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
Well, you also have to worry about spores from other fungus. so bacteria isnt the only problem...

I guess he thinks he is smarter than everyone who is currently growing mushrooms? Does he think mushroom farms pc their grains just to waste time and energy?




I brought up the idea that people think PC'ing doesn't kill all contamination and that there is a 'race' for your mycelium to colonize faster than contamination can take over and he put this whole idea to rest basically explaining why if you pressure cook something thoroughly there is little to no chance of threat from 'dormant' endospore contamination.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: PussyFart]
    #18809545 - 09/06/13 09:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:11 AM)


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809558 - 09/06/13 09:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:12 AM)


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18809585 - 09/06/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
Well, you also have to worry about spores from other fungus. so bacteria isnt the only problem...

I guess he thinks he is smarter than everyone who is currently growing mushrooms? Does he think mushroom farms pc their grains just to waste time and energy?




I brought up the idea that people think PC'ing doesn't kill all contamination and that there is a 'race' for your mycelium to colonize faster than contamination can take over and he put this whole idea to rest basically explaining why if you pressure cook something thoroughly there is little to no chance of threat from 'dormant' endospore contamination.



if you pc'd long enough to kill everything in your jars then your grains would be so burnt. it would be roughly 8 hours at 15 PSI ( I remember reading that somewhere, regardless if that's the right number or not you would have to pc for a long time and your grains would burn)




The chances that your jars are contaminated with one of the few kinds of contamination that can survive above 245 degrees F is extremely low.  Yes, to kill absolutely every single kind of existing bacteria you would have to burn your grains.  But to kill 99.9% TYPES of bacteria the standard PC process does the job.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809602 - 09/06/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Interestiiinnggg...

:ohsodevious:


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: Tmethyl]
    #18809621 - 09/06/13 10:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Well, once again, not every contam is bacteria


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18809648 - 09/06/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
Well, once again, not every contam is bacteria




Yes.  Not all contamination is bacteria.  However as you said, the biggest concern for mycologists is other fungus.

I hate quoting RR because the words arn't coming from me or my own research or experience so I can't necessarily stand behind them.  However he was the one who gave me all the knowledge to grow my first shrooms and in this case I think it's pertinent.  This comment comes from a thread about what temperature fungus / fungal spores 'die' at.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You'll often hear 20 minutes at 121C as the magic number, but in my experience, that's open to debate.  Fungi spores are generally recognized to be killed by a temperature of 140f/60c for an hour.
RR




So I would assume 245 degrees F would be overkill for 99% of fungal contamination.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809674 - 09/06/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If contaminants were a problem in mycology then they'd be a problem in food canning too. When you can food you do it for the very purpose of keeping it on the shelf.


Edited by krypto2000 (09/06/13 10:16 PM)


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809677 - 09/06/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:12 AM)


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: krypto2000]
    #18809687 - 09/06/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
If contaminants were a problem in mycology then they'd be a problem in food canning too.




Contaminants ARE a problem in canning (though I guess that's what you were trying to say?)

In Okanogan county, Washington state there were 3 confirmed cases of botchalism (an anaerobic bacteria, meaning it can survive without oxygen) poisoning in 2012 due to improper canning procedure.  This is the number one reason why vacuuming packing is generally not allowed in local meat shops without a HACCP plan which very few stores take the time to work out.  It's also the reason why vacuum packing is not recommended for long term storage at room temperature for dry mushrooms.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: Blake_Shroom]
    #18809711 - 09/06/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Blake_Shroom said:
well, i guess you're right... you try pressure cooking for 15 mins and see how that goes :thumbup:

we pc for so long so that the heat penetrates the jars and gets to the middle of the jars. While that temp may be over kill, it is necessary in order to get the internal jar temp to that in which most contams will be killed.




You are NOT getting me man.  :facepalm3:  I'm not advocating shorter PC times.

I'm saying that after PCing at the standard 90 - 120 minutes, your jars are most likely pretty fucking sterile with probably no chance of endospore or fungal contamination.

All I've been trying to accomplish with this thread is putting aside the idea that a standard PC run for grain jars still leaves guaranteed contamination that your mycelium has to 'out run' in order to fully colonize the jar.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18809745 - 09/06/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I wasn't really saying it's a problem one way or the other, pretty much agreeing with you. If you PC it right you don't have bacterial problems and can shelf them as long as you want (within reason). If you do it wrong however then just like with food you'll have begun a 'race with the clock.' It's all down to proper procedure.


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: On endospores [Re: krypto2000]
    #18809765 - 09/06/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It's all down to proper procedure.




Damn Straight.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflineBlake_Shroom
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18810025 - 09/06/13 11:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

.


Edited by Blake_Shroom (09/07/13 12:11 AM)


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OfflineNovanity1
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Re: On endospores [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #18810039 - 09/07/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think the "race" is due to the sterilization procedures as much as it is the inoculation. Think about it. Spores are obtained from mushrooms that were exposed to open air. That's why we use agar to provide a clean culture. But this is where human error comes into play I suppose. There could very well be bacteria latent in a visually clean culture.


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