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InvisibleBlend
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: qman]
    #18809436 - 09/06/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

:facepalm:
ok well if you guys wanna make up your own definition for it, this thread is a total waste of time.


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Blend]
    #18809447 - 09/06/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deadendeavor said:
Quote:

The_Aviator said:
Quote:

deadendeavor said:
Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
It seems like some of you have a different definition...





That was never the definition. That is what some religious people that are opposed to atheism like to define it as to make it seem silly.



this is the accepted definition.

If atheism simply meant not theistic, there would be no point in agnosticism.  They'd virtually be the exact same.



Did you read that definiton? "Ungodly" is the first. "Disbelief" is the second which just means "refusal or inability to accept as true" which is the same thing as "lacking belief". The third (meaning least applicable) definition is the only thing that mentions "there is no god" and that's something suggested by non-athiests IMO. No atheist I have ever met wouldn't change their mind about theism if there were anything at all in the world to actually suggest it were something worth accepting. :shrug:

Agnosticism = "I don't know"
Atheistm = "based on the current evidence I do not accept theism"


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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InvisibleDawks
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #18809458 - 09/06/13 09:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

To contribute:

I agree OP I think atheism is “small minded.” Mainly because it looks at deities though a scientific lens rather than a philosophical one.

Scientifically speaking there is no reason to see that god exists. No more than any other unfalsifiable hypothesis such as “there are pink unicorns occupying every point in space but are simply unperceivable.” You can’t prove that that’s not true, but you have no evidence to say it does.

What it really boils down to is understanding that natural laws. Why things happen the way they do. Throwing philosophical concepts such as God into the mix is silly because God has no relevance. God is not going to help you put men on the moon.

Or is he? As far bending the nature of our external reality to our will God may not be very helpful. But what about our internal one? What about that part of the space cadet that is scared that something may go wrong on his mission? Or the engineer working night and day on a problem he just can’t wrap his head around?

Philosophy deals with the way in one manages their thoughts. God is a philosophical concept. Looking at a problem scientifically I may fatigue. But what if I know that God is right there with me. What if I know that no matter what, I’ll find the solution exactly when and how I should… suddenly the problem doesn’t seem so big.

If things aren’t going my way I can have faith that everything is on track. Even though my external reality may indicate otherwise, my internal one is at peace. My internal one has strength and it draws this strength from God (or whatever other philosophical concept you hold).

It doesn’t need to be God specifically. Your philosophy may not require God. You may see yourself as God. But the point is, unlike in the scientific, external reality where God has little relevance. In the internal world God can be the difference between sadness and happiness. Laziness and motivation. Compassion and hate. Life and death.

There was another thread here on the shroomery, the one about depression being like cancer. Where a member posed the question “is it possible for depression to be cured.” From my perspective it is and there is only one way to do it. By changing your philosophy.

Drugs and science may medicate the symptoms of depression but what is causing it in the first place? A neurochemical imbalance? Perhaps. But ultimately you have a lot of control over the way your internal mind works. You decide what you assign relevance too. You decide whether “it’s was just coincidence” or “God is helping me”. You decide whether the glass is half empty or half full. If you cultivate an internal reality in which an all loving father is always there for you, loves more than your human brain can imagine and wants what best for you, maybe life isn’t so bad? Maybe it’s a gift?

And I think this is what an atheist is closing their mind to. Atheists have decided that God doesn’t exist and that all the benefits one can get from having a relationship from God are fiction. The problem with this conclusion is that the benefits of having a relationship with God are very real and when you have cried tears of ecstasy from feeling God’s love, no amount of science is going to tell you it’s just “delusion”

So to sum up, God is a subjective phenomenon, rather than an objective one. God doesn’t influence the external universe but can make a tremendous difference to the internal one which in turn can lead you to have an effect on the external one.

And yes I know the hardcore rationalist can say “it’s all just brain chemistry.” But that’s devaluing the brain. The neurochemistry is how the brain works, yes, but the brain does something amazing, the brain creates a place in which art, music, philosophy and God can exist without the trappings of those pesky “laws of nature.” Isn’t that magical? :mushroom2:


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InvisibleBlend
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18809478 - 09/06/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Quote:

deadendeavor said:
Quote:

The_Aviator said:
Quote:

deadendeavor said:
Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
It seems like some of you have a different definition...





That was never the definition. That is what some religious people that are opposed to atheism like to define it as to make it seem silly.



this is the accepted definition.

If atheism simply meant not theistic, there would be no point in agnosticism.  They'd virtually be the exact same.



Did you read that definiton? "Ungodly" is the first. "Disbelief" is the second which just means "refusal or inability to accept as true" which is the same thing as "lacking belief". The third (meaning least applicable) definition is the only thing that mentions "there is no god" and that's something suggested by non-athiests IMO. No atheist I have ever met wouldn't change their mind about theism if there were anything at all in the world to actually suggest it were something worth accepting. :shrug:

Agnosticism = "I don't know"
Atheistm = "based on the current evidence I do not accept theism"




Ok so "a disbelief in the existence of a deity" does not at all imply "I do not believe in the existence of a deity"?
I'm not sure how you can argue with that.  It even goes onto say the following:
Quote:

Critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or divine beings. Unlike agnosticism, which leaves open the question of whether there is a God, atheism is a positive denial.




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Invisiblepsi
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted] * 5
    #18809498 - 09/06/13 09:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

elborito said:
I don't think you could pull that paragraph off at gun point, you would probably be a sweaty shaking mess you'd get to the third "ontological", mispronounce it and scream "FUCK!" and throw your arms in the air. This spooks the opinion seeking gunman and he shoots you in the legs several times.



subtle I never went to college post




If you're going to pull the "you can't understand what I wrote because you're uneducated" card, you could at least put a bit more effort into constructing intelligible statements. A lot of what you've written in this thread is overly dense, and a lot of sentences seem to have key words missing. The combined effect is to make it unnecessarily laborious to guess what you were trying to say.

Quote:

Not being atheist does not, according to make make (?) one an atheist by definition.




Quote:

You believe this because you, whether consciously or not (are?) employing as part of your implicit reasoning what is usually formally referred to as the non-contradiction principle, which means that every statement must either be true or false.




etc.


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Blend] * 2
    #18809503 - 09/06/13 09:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It does imply "I do not believe" it does NOT imply "I assert absolute knowledge that said being doesn't exist". But rather, as I have been saying the entire thread (and as every atheist I have ever known has said), "the evidence right now does not support any theistic beliefs I have explored, and thus I do not buy into/believe theism."

Why is so hard to understand that "I do not believe" =/= "I know it does not exist"???:wtf:


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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OfflineThe_Aviator
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Dawks] * 3
    #18809506 - 09/06/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I couldn't disagree with that last post more.

"Atheists have decided that God doesn’t exist..."
You have several atheists in this thread saying that our atheism is not a belief that a god exists. It is the lack of belief in a god.

"But that’s devaluing the brain."
According to you. I could write out my opinion but Richard Feynman will explain it better in an analogy:


--------------------

Sartre on conciousness: "a being such that in its being, its being is in question in so far as this being implies a being other than itself."
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InvisibleBlend
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18809537 - 09/06/13 09:39 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
It does imply "I do not believe" it does NOT imply "I assert absolute knowledge that said being doesn't exist". But rather, as I have been saying the entire thread (and as every atheist I have ever known has said), "the evidence right now does not support any theistic beliefs I have explored, and thus I do not buy into/believe theism."

Why is so hard to understand that "I do not believe" =/= "I know it does not exist"???:wtf:



It's hard to understand why you would call yourself an atheist when you are open to the idea of the existence of a deity (which is why there is such a thing as agnosticism).  That is an error in semantics, I'm sorry.  Atheism is a denial of any deity.  It has always meant that, in spite of what you have been saying throughout this thread.  You can put your own spin on it, but don't expect anyone else to follow your lead.

To me this is pretty cut and dry.  All I can do is post the definition again.  I'm not going to sit here and argue the different interpretations one can have upon every single word in the definition.  Atheism does not mean what you say it does.  But believe as you wish.


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InvisibleDawks
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: The_Aviator]
    #18809549 - 09/06/13 09:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
I couldn't disagree with that last post more.

"Atheists have decided that God doesn’t exist..."
You have several atheists in this thread saying that our atheism is not a belief that a god exists. It is the lack of belief in a god.




I understand however this is an issue of semantics.

I've encountered atheists in person that assert that God does not exist or has no practical significance and this is what I disagree with.

If you take atheist to mean simply not having God or any sort of deity as part of your philosophy than my post really doesn't have any relevance to you. What are you disagreeing with?

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
"But that’s devaluing the brain."
According to you. I could write out my opinion but Richard Feynman will explain it better in an analogy:





I can't youtube for a couple of days. Can you tl;dw it for me?


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Blend]
    #18809560 - 09/06/13 09:43 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Atheism is a disbelief/lack of acceptance of current theism, nothing more.

It doesn't believe what you think it does. Atheism has to do with the idea that there is not enough evidence to suggest theism. Why should I accept something there is no evidence of? With all my current knowledge and with all current human knowledge (at least that is publicly known), there is no proof of a god. I'm not uncertain of that.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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InvisibleBlend
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18809584 - 09/06/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Alright, one more time.  With a little more feeling.
Quote:

Merriam-Webster said:
Unlike agnosticism, which leaves open the question of whether there is a God, atheism is a positive denial.




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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted]
    #18809588 - 09/06/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Never really been asked about my beliefs.  Beliefs, like most things, falls along a spectrum ranging from nothingness to reverend hallleluujah.  I am probably classified as an atheist.  But, that is far from trusting that science has nailed down the rules of existence.

I like to think about it in terms of physics, chemistry, and mathematics, and these uses logic quite a bit. Newton's laws are an example.  One thing that seems to always be true is: Where there is mass, there is also energy.  Furthermore, it appears that where there is life, there is mass and also energy.  Is is logical to say: There are conservation principals that say you can't just create mass, you can only change its form? That is for you to decide.

From a logical perspective, a single entity running the show just doesn't resonate for me.  Nor really does a collection of them likely control everything.  Most likely an entity would be selfish, like the huge majority of humans or other animals. What I do believe though is that energy and mass always coincide with life. I don't think the reverse is true though. Or is it? 

With the conservation principals in mind, I ponder if there are a great number of things that obey similar conservation principals.  For instance, suppose that life is a conserved quantity.  We zip into life for a while, then we zip out at some point.  Birth and death are observable and to date there are no known cases of death not ultimately pairing with birth.  So, if life is conserved, than what is it like before or after it changes form into our world? 

Science doesn't explain the vast majority of phenomena.  :strokebeard:


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Blend] * 2
    #18809595 - 09/06/13 09:52 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deadendeavor said:
It's hard to understand why you would call yourself an atheist when you are open to the idea of the existence of a deity (which is why there is such a thing as agnosticism).  That is an error in semantics, I'm sorry.  Atheism is a denial of any deity.  It has always meant that, in spite of what you have been saying throughout this thread.  You can put your own spin on it, but don't expect anyone else to follow your lead.

To me this is pretty cut and dry.  All I can do is post the definition again.  I'm not going to sit here and argue the different interpretations one can have upon every single word in the definition.  Atheism does not mean what you say it does.  But believe as you wish.




Referring to "the definition" suggests a single universally agreed upon definition. The Mirriam-Webster online dictionary you quoted earlier is not the final authority on such matters, and the looser definition that some people have advocated here is documented elsewhere if you look around.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atheism


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OfflineThe_Aviator
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Dawks] * 2
    #18809597 - 09/06/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sure, we can't know if there is no god. But we also can't know for certain that there aren't fairies, for example. How do we treat that? That is why the whole atheist vs agnostic debate is a silly distraction. The point is that pure faith is required to accept or even seriously consider the god "theory." Pure faith is orthogonal to reality in every way that I can consider. It eludes observation and reason. It is all a fairy tale that was started by primitive humans. That is just my opinion, I know that makes me a "militant atheist" but do not mistake my bluntness as disrespect.

“There is no polite way to suggest to someone that they have devoted their life to a folly.” -Daniel Dennett

Below is the short transcript from the Feynman quote:
Quote:

I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.



~Richard Feynman


--------------------

Sartre on conciousness: "a being such that in its being, its being is in question in so far as this being implies a being other than itself."
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OfflineMAIA
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: qman] * 2
    #18809608 - 09/06/13 09:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

This is the classic philosophical question that people use to discuss without actually understanding the use and meaning of some definitions. We can group this definitions in two pairs of absolutes due to their nature. Then we can cross both pairs to define the intellectual inclination.

Theism / Atheism - deals directly with belief systems. Either you believe in god or you don't.

Gnostic / Agnostic - deals with the epistemological aspects of the issue. It means, either you accept you can know god or you don't.

Follow this link a read some more info http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/ . Now try to define yourself.

I define myself as theist agnostic. I believe there can be a god but I can not know if god exists. I try to tell apart what is "belief" and what is "knowledge". I think that working on this capacity made see things more clearly. One conclusion I reached is that "belief" is the most subjective structure of the mind, thus it cannot be trusted as objective knowledge. It serves nothing but ourselves and our constructs. That's why I don't accept any religion and have my own personal view about what I believe. And what I believe needs no followers...

I really respect atheists because of their objectivity. Nevertheless, I still rest my case middle-ground because no one can prove, or disprove, the existence of something one cannot know.


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Edited by MAIA (09/06/13 10:11 PM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: The_Aviator]
    #18809613 - 09/06/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
Pure faith is orthogonal to reality in every way that I can consider.




That's the very radical of the issue when it comes to understand this definitions.


--------------------
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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleBlend
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: psi]
    #18809624 - 09/06/13 10:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

deadendeavor said:
It's hard to understand why you would call yourself an atheist when you are open to the idea of the existence of a deity (which is why there is such a thing as agnosticism).  That is an error in semantics, I'm sorry.  Atheism is a denial of any deity.  It has always meant that, in spite of what you have been saying throughout this thread.  You can put your own spin on it, but don't expect anyone else to follow your lead.

To me this is pretty cut and dry.  All I can do is post the definition again.  I'm not going to sit here and argue the different interpretations one can have upon every single word in the definition.  Atheism does not mean what you say it does.  But believe as you wish.




Referring to "the definition" suggests a single universally agreed upon definition. The Mirriam-Webster online dictionary you quoted earlier is not the final authority on such matters, and the looser definition that some people have advocated here is documented elsewhere if you look around.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atheism



I checked out your link, which tended to agree with the definition I've grown so accustomed to.  It did also mention there is a 'loose' definition that is reminiscent of some of these posts, but I have to say again that to me, that definition sounds alot more like agnosticism.  And I'm sure there's a 'loose' definition for agnosticism that goes something like "The disbelief in God" if you look around.  Does that mean it's correct?

If you can make a word mean whatever you want, then language becomes more and more pointless.  I don't care what some people think this or that word means.  What is the agreed-upon definition of the word?  Clearly when you take a loose approach, arguments such as this become needlessly confusing.


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Blend]
    #18809644 - 09/06/13 10:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deadendeavor said:
the definition I've grown so accustomed to.
...

I don't care what some people think this or that word means. 



Clearly you only care about your own definition of a position you neither understand nor hold. Like another poster correctly said, asserting that agnosticism makes sense and atheism does not means you're dealing with epistimological issues. You're dealing with what we can and can't know. I'm not. I'm saying we can make reasonable inferences based on the evidence presented to us, which is what I have done with my atheism. Any new evidence I find leads to an integration of that into my current worldview. If it makes my worldview in question, I asses both and do further investigation then revise my view if necessary. So I don't need to claim "I don't know" because it's obvious we all don't know many things. If you say we can't know about god, you're basically calling all claims of knowledge into question. Are you agnostic about Santa Clause?


Btw, why is that that anyone is entitled to their own permutation of theism but people like you act like atheism can't come in different flavors?


--------------------
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"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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Invisiblepsi
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Blend] * 4
    #18809658 - 09/06/13 10:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Lots of words have numerous meanings (some of which will inevitably overlap with meanings of other words,) but people manage to get by somehow. Once a person has clarified what they actually do mean by a given term, that ambiguity becomes sort of a non-issue. :shrug:


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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18809683 - 09/06/13 10:20 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)



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