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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinemorrowasted
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atheism is small minded. * 3
    #18809034 - 09/06/13 07:43 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

it misses the bigger picture by not understanding the relationship between their lexicon, their use of logic, and their perceptions. The kind of person who says he is an atheist is typically trapped inside closed loop of the same deductive and inductive lines of reasoning until they eventually realize that the question is simply malformed. It could very easily be the case that people have just gotten a whole lot better at talking about the same thing they've always been talking about, but it may also be the case that truth is impossible because language captures a reality which always exists in one's perceptual past

if I am comepelled to label myself at all, I call my agnostic, meaning its literally definition, without knowledge. It does not rule out belief. I believe at all sorts of things at various moments that allow me to function with the world around me. I used to say I believed in God because I was raised that way but now I don’t. I don’t say I’m atheist, and if you ask me, I’ll say no. I don’t not believe in God. I think God is a Word that can mean anything. It’s silly to me that people with supposedly scientific attidudes act like there is some sort of mystical floating universal lexicon. Dictionaries are a relatively recent invention and language is a constantly changing organism.
The fact remains that nothing explains existence in general. I have ideas in the realm of ontological philosophy and if I tell them people it sometimes sounds like I’m a cooky youtube addicted nutjob who has never read a book in his life but it isn’t true. I’ve read a shitload more books tan most people. I can have casual conversation at a decent level about topics ranging from classic literature to linguistics to biochemistry and astrophysics. Most of that is self education but I am pretty well educated as well as I am working towards a PhD. If if I were forced at gunpoint to say I believed something, I’d say something like this,
“There is something like ontological reality, often colloquailly referred to as existence. There is something like ontological order, which means that ontological reality is somehow divided into different kinds such that each kind cannot be said to be co-existing by any kind which exists subordinate to those kinds to which the speaker is referring. The first kind of these things is what we call light. There were however three things which can be said to have co-existed. Those are the things commonly reffered to as space, perception, and something like a correlative processing computer for managing that perception. The first thing the perception did is alter the subordinate ontologically kind such that it represented all of that we currently refer to as the collective particles of light in the universe. The thing we call darkness became the thing which exists in the absence of light which is created by perceptual obstructions. The can next ontological kind created by perception was substance. THen you can roughly say that what is commonly called the big bang happened. The big bang was essentially sound. Vibrating subtance in a space. The rest is history. Primitive people have worshipped all sorts of things but oftentimes they were trying to address the basic proposition of existence, which, after all remains unexplained and probably unexplainable.

There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
William Shakespeare


Edited by morrowasted (09/06/13 07:59 PM)


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OfflineCamwritesgonzo
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted] * 18
    #18809045 - 09/06/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


--------------------
"I've always maintained that reality is for those who can't face drugs."-Tom Waits
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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted] * 5
    #18809047 - 09/06/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Religion has failed everytime at explaining the universe science while not perfect improves over time instead of relying on what old goat herders thought thousands of years ago.


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 2
    #18809050 - 09/06/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Atheism means not being theistic. I agree that people use god to mean anything. That doesn't mean I'm a theist. I'm not small minded because I'm not a theist. There is no evidence for theism and as such I do not subscribe to the belief system of any theistic sects nor do I come to my own theistic conclusions. :bored:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Religion has failed everytime at explaining the universe science while not perfect improves over time instead of relying on what old goat herders thought thousands of years ago.



This too.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: JoieDeVivre] * 2
    #18809060 - 09/06/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Atheism means not being theistic. I agree that people use god to mean anything. That doesn't mean I'm a theist. I'm not small minded because I'm not a theist. There is no evidence for theism and as such I do not subscribe to the belief system of any theistic sects nor do I come to my own theistic conclusions. :bored:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Religion has failed everytime at explaining the universe science while not perfect improves over time instead of relying on what old goat herders thought thousands of years ago.



This too.



Joie agrees with me!!  :bearbreakdance:


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OfflineMisterSandman
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18809063 - 09/06/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Atheism means not being theistic. I agree that people use god to mean anything. That doesn't mean I'm a theist. I'm not small minded because I'm not a theist. There is no evidence for theism and as such I do not subscribe to the belief system of any theistic sects nor do I come to my own theistic conclusions. :bored:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Religion has failed everytime at explaining the universe science while not perfect improves over time instead of relying on what old goat herders thought thousands of years ago.



This too.




Yeah this
:nodofunderstanding:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #18809099 - 09/06/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Atheism means not being theistic. I agree that people use god to mean anything. That doesn't mean I'm a theist. I'm not small minded because I'm not a theist. There is no evidence for theism and as such I do not subscribe to the belief system of any theistic sects nor do I come to my own theistic conclusions. :bored:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Religion has failed everytime at explaining the universe science while not perfect improves over time instead of relying on what old goat herders thought thousands of years ago.



This too.



Not being atheist does not, according to make make one an atheist by definition. You believe this because you, whether consciously or not employing as part of your implicit reasoning what is usually formally referred to as the non-contradiction principle, which means that every statement must either be true or false. It is only since the invention of the formal subject in language that the possibility of negating subjects existed, and quite honestly didn't seriously happen in a way would could honestly call atheism until the last few thousand years at the earliest. It wasn't even a coherent question until then. It was like asking whether the Sun existed. The reason for religion and mythology as I see it involves an interaction between evolution, language, and simple time. As a linguist I would secretly like to believe that language is the first ontologically existing thing was language. In a way the thing I described sort of is just language.


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted] * 4
    #18809122 - 09/06/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You're seem to just be saying, "language man, so being an atheist is small minded."

The simple truth is that being an atheist implies nothing more than not being theistic. Literally, if you break the word down linguistically it means not theist. So, your assertion that being an atheist means I think "statments are always either true or false" is completely irrelevant and has literally nothing to do with what the word actually means. No atheists I know rule out the possibility of a god. Most of us just say we are not theists (literally, a theist) because none of our ventures into theism have met the sufficient and necessary parameters for us to accept them as true at this point.

In reality it seems like many people who say similar things as what you are saying here want to believe in something you term "god" and feel upset that other people don't agree and reason (due to cognitive dissonance) that they must be wrong or small minded.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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Offlineflugelizor
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: MisterSandman] * 3
    #18809173 - 09/06/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I used to say I was agnostic too. Until years ago I heard something that "resonated within my soul";
(There, isn't that something that someone of faith would say?)

"An agnostic is an atheist without conviction"
Or as Google finishes the query "agnostic is an atheist... (with no balls)"

I'm an atheist. You will probably admit it soon too.
You seem bright (big words) do you know about Occam's Razor?
How is it that an omnipotent being who wants nothing more than to be believed in does not make it's presence known?


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Offlineqman
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted] * 6
    #18809196 - 09/06/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Atheism means not being theistic. I agree that people use god to mean anything. That doesn't mean I'm a theist. I'm not small minded because I'm not a theist. There is no evidence for theism and as such I do not subscribe to the belief system of any theistic sects nor do I come to my own theistic conclusions. :bored:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Religion has failed everytime at explaining the universe science while not perfect improves over time instead of relying on what old goat herders thought thousands of years ago.



This too.



Not being atheist does not, according to make make one an atheist by definition. You believe this because you, whether consciously or not employing as part of your implicit reasoning what is usually formally referred to as the non-contradiction principle, which means that every statement must either be true or false. It is only since the invention of the formal subject in language that the possibility of negating subjects existed, and quite honestly didn't seriously happen in a way would could honestly call atheism until the last few thousand years at the earliest. It wasn't even a coherent question until then. It was like asking whether the Sun existed. The reason for religion and mythology as I see it involves an interaction between evolution, language, and simple time. As a linguist I would secretly like to believe that language is the first ontologically existing thing was language. In a way the thing I described sort of is just language.


:lolwut:


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InvisibleDawks
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Camwritesgonzo]
    #18809199 - 09/06/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Camwritesgonzo said:
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.



:rofl:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: flugelizor]
    #18809286 - 09/06/13 08:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

flugelizor said:
I used to say I was agnostic too. Until years ago I heard something that "resonated within my soul";
(There, isn't that something that someone of faith would say?)

"An agnostic is an atheist without conviction"
Or as Google finishes the query "agnostic is an atheist... (with no balls)"

I'm an atheist. You will probably admit it soon too.
You seem bright (big words) do you know about Occam's Razor?
How is it that an omnipotent being who wants nothing more than to be believed in does not make it's presence known?


because it is an 'omnipotent being'. that is just something people have made up. intelligence according to the structure of belief proposed in the OP is just a higher order ontological kind interacting with perception. each kind subsubmes all of what is called often their information from its subordinate kinds in addition to altering it. intelligence at various subkinds correseponds to differen numbers perceptual units by being dividing itself into two which perceive only half as many subkinds. what we call people collectively make up part of that perception. perhaps the claims of earliest religions in India about the "number of souls" isn't so different from the idea of number of perceptual units in the universe at the time it was written


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Offlineelborito
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Dawks] * 2
    #18809292 - 09/06/13 08:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think you could pull that paragraph off at gun point, you would probably be a sweaty shaking mess you'd get to the third "ontological", mispronounce it and scream "FUCK!" and throw your arms in the air. This spooks the opinion seeking gunman and he shoots you in the legs several times.


Edited by elborito (09/06/13 08:45 PM)


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: elborito]
    #18809315 - 09/06/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

i've received better treatment from otd

Quote:

elborito said:
I don't think you could pull that paragraph off at gun point, you would probably be a sweaty shaking mess you'd get to the third "ontological", mispronounce it and scream "FUCK!" and throw your arms in the air. This spooks the opinion seeking gunman and he shoots you in the legs several times.



subtle I never went to college post


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InvisibleBlend
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: elborito]
    #18809342 - 09/06/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
It seems like some of you have a different definition...

"An agnostic is an atheist without conviction"
This is true.  It has nothing to do with balls, but belief.  To believe there is no God is, in my opinion, as unfounded as a belief in God.


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Offlineelborito
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted] * 6
    #18809353 - 09/06/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
i've received better treatment from otd

Quote:

elborito said:
I don't think you could pull that paragraph off at gun point, you would probably be a sweaty shaking mess you'd get to the third "ontological", mispronounce it and scream "FUCK!" and throw your arms in the air. This spooks the opinion seeking gunman and he shoots you in the legs several times.



subtle I never went to college post




Blatant sanctimonious post.


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Offlineflugelizor
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: morrowasted]
    #18809383 - 09/06/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
intelligence according to the structure of belief proposed in the OP is just a higher order ontological kind interacting with perception. each kind subsubmes all of what is called often their information from its subordinate kinds in addition to altering it. intelligence at various subkinds correseponds to differen numbers perceptual units by being dividing itself into two which perceive only half as many subkinds. what we call people collectively make up part of that perception. perhaps the claims of earliest religions in India about the "number of souls" isn't so different from the idea of number of perceptual units in the universe at the time it was written




Oh Shit! I BEEN TROLLED!


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OfflineThe_Aviator
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: Blend] * 3
    #18809402 - 09/06/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deadendeavor said:
Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
It seems like some of you have a different definition...





That was never the definition. That is what some religious people that are opposed to atheism like to define it as to make it seem silly. Atheism = a-theism = not theist. Is not playing soccer a sport? Maybe you are thinking about anti-theism?

Almost all atheists are agnostic. I am an atheist and I am philosophically agnostic. I live my life as if there is no omnipotent being pulling the strings but I acknowledge the idea that immaterial-ism cannot be proved nor disproved. Furthermore I think the idea of metaphysics is silly, but I'm open to any evidence that could substantiate some of the wild claims the majority of people throw around.


--------------------

Sartre on conciousness: "a being such that in its being, its being is in question in so far as this being implies a being other than itself."
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InvisibleBlend
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: The_Aviator] * 1
    #18809419 - 09/06/13 09:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
Quote:

deadendeavor said:
Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
It seems like some of you have a different definition...





That was never the definition. That is what some religious people that are opposed to atheism like to define it as to make it seem silly.



this is the accepted definition.

If atheism simply meant not theistic, there would be no point in agnosticism.  They'd virtually be the exact same.


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Offlineqman
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Re: atheism is small minded. [Re: The_Aviator] * 3
    #18809421 - 09/06/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
Quote:

deadendeavor said:
Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
It seems like some of you have a different definition...





That was never the definition. That is what some religious people that are opposed to atheism like to define it as to make it seem silly. Atheism = a-theism = not theist. Is not playing soccer a sport? Maybe you are thinking about anti-theism?

Almost all atheists are agnostic. I am an atheist and I am philosophically agnostic. I live my life as if there is no omnipotent being pulling the strings but I acknowledge the idea that immaterial-ism cannot be proved nor disproved. Furthermore I think the idea of metaphysics is silly, but I'm open to any evidence that could substantiate some of the wild claims the majority of people throw around.


:whathesaid:

Thank you for clarifying this, most people don't get it.


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