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Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18807061 - 09/06/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
It proves to me according your own logic that the act of creating the concept of nature is unnatural but what it is actually representing is a true representation of nature. Just not the act of physically creating the concept.



Quote:

Sse said:
It proves to me according your own logic that the act of creating the concept of nature is unnatural but what it is actually representing is a true representation of nature. Just not the act of physically creating the concept.




Umm, sorry, I don't follow.

There is a subtle difference between nature and peoples idea's and thoughts of nature.

You're really going to have to pay attention to the subtleties and nuances if your going to see it, rather than trying to understand it, try looking and observing.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18807065 - 09/06/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
As many animals as the lions will allow. If they see other predators like the ones listed above then they will also kill or chase those away. Probably leaving the eating to the ones that are sneaky/desperate enough or are scavengers not really of concern to the lions territory/food source/survival.




No, there are over 1000 life forms (easily) that will benefit from that death, from plants and microbes to insects and other animals.


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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18807156 - 09/06/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

well of course there are, everything on the planet will in a way gain from the loss of anything.

Those would be off the lions radar

likely because they don't pose a threat to the resources of the lion


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (09/06/13 12:18 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18807174 - 09/06/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The concept of nature was created by humans based on their idea of nature. Doesn't mean it isn't an accurate idea of nature, because if it weren't then you wouldn't be defending the manmade concept of nature.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
Saแนƒsฤra

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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18807254 - 09/06/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If the whole creation and then meaning of any concept doesn't appear in nature then your definition of nature is just some manmade idea without relevance. Same with ownership then.

Then the world just is, not what we ever think it is. This goes for anything you think about anything as well. So whatever is going on out there is going to always be beyond our understanding and ability to conceptualize. Then nothing anyone thinks is a true representation of anything. No matter how many ways its observed or repeatable.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
Saแนƒsฤra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18807404 - 09/06/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Do lions possess as in seize and dominate?

Do they remain for many generations in control of this area? Establishing their barriers through scent markings? Keeping patrol of these areas? Do they protect their resources from competitors?

We have a word to represent that; ownership.

The creation of the word ownership may have been an unnatural act, according to your definition. Though that is what it is symbolizing, those actions by that lion. Is it reality? Perhaps only in action. For all we are able to perceive they have some odd way of trying to share that just ends in blood shed. Maybe they are overly excited to see another predator/competitor and during intense expressions of love they accidently kill or scare them away. Maybe that's why they patrol the borders, they are just so eager to greet another predator. All the anticipation builds up and they can't help but intensely show their love, which ends in loving the creature to death. Maybe they really just want to create a utopia and share their limited resources.  But to our limited perceptions we relate it to our own territorial behaviors, perhaps we are mistaken and our concept doesn't represent what is truly going on only what we can perceive to be happening.

Who knows what's going on beyond our perceptions.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (09/06/13 01:04 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18808788 - 09/06/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Let me try a different angle.

What makes seizing, possessing or dominating any less of a concept?

(Not to stroke your ego or anything, but you are making some good arguments, and I think your getting closer to seeing what I'm talking about, rather than trying to understand it.) Look, don't think, just look.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18811705 - 09/07/13 01:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Rofl, all concepts are man made and therefore not natural.




What exactly are you responding to? Are you capable of drawing an association between your response and the idea to which you are responding, or do you prefer to stick with random outbursts? :strokebeard:

Let's try to find the connection, then, shall we?

The point I raised in my post: The concept of ownership is man-made, but ownership itself is a natural phenomenon.
Your response: "ALL concepts are man made and therefore not natural.".

Wow, thanks for emphasizing the idea that concepts are man-made. You in effect agreed with me by doing so. :smirk:

I, however, referred to ownership itself as a phenomenon that exists beyond a concept. Your comment didn't refer to this in the slightest, so it failed as a response to what I said.

You can try again if you like. I think it's supposed to be the part where you suggest that ownership doesn't exist as anything more than a concept, instead of just reaffirming in agreement with me that concepts themselves are man-made. :wink:

I hope you do realize, though, that if you can't hold up your own side of the debate, and I have to keep feeding you your lines, you really won't be more than a spectator with an unsubstantiated attitude that his point of view is the correct one. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #18812361 - 09/07/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What evidence do you have of ownership being a phenomena rather than a concept?

I mean concrete evidence, not false analogies or other concepts, but actual evidence.

(It's like your basing a theory on a hypothesis.)


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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18818536 - 09/09/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I feel like the whole premise is based on assumptions

"What makes seizing, possessing or dominating any less of a concept?"

what makes conceptual thought definitely unnatural? It seems like you are assuming that other creatures don't have conceptual thought.

Are you saying what our concepts represent don't have any truth in nature? Or that we are not able to definitively say because our concepts are in direct relation to our limited world view?

natural is a concept, built on human ideas. How do you pull any subtle differences out of idea's of nature and what is really nature? It's always going to involve a human idea, as long as you are a human.

If you just look, don't define, remove our conceptually limited world view then we are staring at everything without separation.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18818555 - 09/09/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What evidence do you have of ownership being a phenomena rather than a concept?




Behavior. And it's a phenomenon. And I never said it hasn't been conceptualized as well, so your "rather than a concept" denotes a failure in your reading comprehension.

Quote:


I mean concrete evidence, not false analogies or other concepts, but actual evidence.




I don't make false analogies. :sorry:

Quote:


(It's like your basing a theory on a hypothesis.)




No it isn't. :cuckoo: :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMemories
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18819180 - 09/09/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What evidence do you have of ownership being a phenomena rather than a concept?

I mean concrete evidence, not false analogies or other concepts, but actual evidence.

(It's like your basing a theory on a hypothesis.)




Everything is a phenomenon, including concepts.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18820230 - 09/09/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
I feel like the whole premise is based on assumptions

"What makes seizing, possessing or dominating any less of a concept?"

what makes conceptual thought definitely unnatural? It seems like you are assuming that other creatures don't have conceptual thought.





The definition of nature does that.


Edited by teknix (09/09/13 07:21 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #18822356 - 09/10/13 08:04 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

Quote:

teknix said:
What evidence do you have of ownership being a phenomena rather than a concept?




Behavior.




--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #18822386 - 09/10/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Would you say it's basically the same as control?


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18822820 - 09/10/13 10:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Would you say it's basically the same as control?




I don't think I'd say they are the same thing. To me, control signifies the capacity to determine what happens. I think that it's entirely possible, for instance, to possess something, but to not control it or what happens to it.

To possess or to own represents a relationship between an entity and an object in which the entity has laid claim to the object, through physically positioning itself in relation to the object or positioning the object in relation to itself, and/or communicating this claim.

To control represents the ability to either make that which is controlled perform or act in a desired fashion.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #18823012 - 09/10/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

When you own something, don't you decide what will happen to that something?

I am now speaking of constant or present ownership.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18823376 - 09/10/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:


The definition of nature does that.




The definition only says humans. Other creatures may have conceptual thought.


I'm still confused. If human concepts aren't natural. Then how is our manmade idea of nature any representation of nature? We just created something apart from "nature" by conceptualizing it.

To me it would make more sense if the definition referred to only the physical creations. "Made out of the physical material of the brain" then made even more physical when we starting creating dictionaries. Maybe its just our physical creations that we've decided to label as unnatural. Maybe they do accurately represent what is going on, maybe not. Maybe only from our limited points of view.

But to say it is apart from nature, due to it being our manmade concept doesn't make sense to me. Everything we are dealing with here is a manmade concept. Everything we are thinking is then apart from nature. Even our thoughts on nature.

We don't have the vantage point to be saying anything is or isn't apart. It's beyond our perceptions currently. If you were to observe the world without conceptual thought then you wouldn't be labeling anything.



Edited by Sse (09/10/13 01:32 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #18823501 - 09/10/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I think control can just be as little as having power over.

If I say one pride of lions has control over an area for many generations, then to me that just means they are dominating the area without being dominated. Their territory has remained in their hands, they have remained the dominating force within those boundaries.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18823750 - 09/10/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
When you own something, don't you decide what will happen to that something?




Possibly, but not necessarily. I think that, at most, it could be said that possession, or ownership, implies control over at least one aspect of that which is possessed. In other words, ownership and control are related, but not the same thing. :wink:


Quote:

Sse said:
I think control can just be as little as having power over.

If I say one pride of lions has control over an area for many generations, then to me that just means they are dominating the area without being dominated. Their territory has remained in their hands, they have remained the dominating force within those boundaries.




This fits well in with what I was saying. I referred to control as the ability of determining what happens. In this example, the lions determine what happens with their territory in the sense that is relevant to them - holding it for themselves in place of it being held by other lions. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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