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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18795487 - 09/03/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

What do you think liberal means?




I don't think it means "One who is actively invested in disproving correlations between IQ and wealth." I am still waiting for you to present direct evidence to support your claim.

Quote:

I took apart the methodology of the only study in which the methodology was presented




Not true. You didn't present anything at all from the methodology of that study. The sentence you quoted the first time came from the abstract, and the few words you posted yesterday, came from the Introduction. Neither of which is the methodology, and neither time did you offer any insight or explanation of your own. When I questioned why you thought it showed bias (much less active intent to skew results), I received no response. That hardly constitutes "taking apart" and it certainly doesn't constitute evidence for your claim.

Furthermore, the methodology was presented in all the studies I linked, but from what I garner, you haven't read more than one of them. This is hardly enough information for you to make your claim.

Quote:

Not peer reviewed is now a flaw?  They reviewed it.  They went nuts




If author's were hoping for their data to be more credible, than it is their flaw. In the scientific community something that is not peer-reviewed carries far less credibility than something that is. This is why books are rarely cited in published studies. Peer-review allows the data and methodology to be examined by experts in the field for biases, errors, and omissions. Because The Bell Curve did not do this, it shouldn't be surprising that their findings weren't immediately accepted.




If your sample is unique to only that population, as the writers freely admit, their methodology cannot possibly apply beyond it
Quote:



Quote:

I don't give a shit why people are stupid.  Just that they are.




What I posted in no way discussed reasons for people's stupidity, and your response is not a rebuttal. These were criticisms raised by multiple sources and still cast doubt on The Bell Curve's findings. If you are interested in proving your point, you need to show why these criticisms are not justified, and are instead the social scientists actively trying to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income.


  What criticisms do you reference?  See below.

Quote:

Perhaps we should do a study.  We can canvass social scientists and ask if they  are more likely to try to replicate Watson et al or disprove Watson et al.  Wanna bet how it turns out?




Do you have results for such study? Because if you don't then you are simply making assumptions. Either way, I still don't see how this supports your claim.




I presented a hypothesis.  I suggested a study  Let's do it.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18795584 - 09/03/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If your sample is unique to only that population, as the writers freely admit, their methodology cannot possibly apply beyond it




EDIT: Looking back after writing all this, I can't tell what your comment is in response to. If it is in response to my comments on The Bell Curve, the below applies. If it is in response to comments about Hastrog, then skip to the bold "Edit 2".


Please cite in the book where they said that their results cannot be applied beyond that population.

One of their main parts in the book was all of the policy recommendations they made. For example, one section is entitled "More General Implications for Policy." One of the sections I remember debating before is:

"The technically precise description of America's fertility policy is that it subsidizes births among poor women, who are also disproportionately at the low end of the intelligence distribution. We urge generally that these policies, represented by the extensive network of cash and services for low-income women who have babies, be ended. The government should stop subsidizing births to anyone rich or poor. The other generic recommendation, as close to harmless as any government program we can imagine, is to make it easy for women to make good on their prior decision not to get pregnant by making available birth control mechanisms that are increasingly flexible, foolproof, inexpensive, and safe." (This excerpt begins on p.548 of the copy of The Bell Curve which I own. The page may be different if you are looking at a different copy.)

To me it seems that they had little interest in keeping their results specific to a unique population and instead wanted to make broad policy changes based on their findings. Do you disagree?

Also, do you have nothing further to say on Hastrog's and Oosterbeek's methodology? I assume by your lack of response that you cannot find any active intent to disprove anything in their methodology, but correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT 2: This is not evidence that they are biased or actively trying to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income. Please provide evidence for that.

Quote:

What criticisms do you reference?  See below.




Criticisms such as those brought up by Hout, Matthews, Korenman, and Heckman to name a few.

Quote:

I presented a hypothesis.  I suggested a study  Let's do it.




No "let's." The burden of proof for your claims is on you. Please conduct this study and post your results as well as your methodology. There is a wealth of data to collect from, and most of it should be easily accessible to you. Some of it will be available free of charge, but grants can cover your costs. I eagerly await the results.

In the meantime, you seem to be dodging my question repeatedly zappa. Do you have any direct evidence whatsoever to support your earlier claims?


Edited by BoldAsLove (09/03/13 06:45 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18799715 - 09/04/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I was talking about Hatrog in re: the unique nature of their sample size which has exactly zero applicability to US housing project denizens.  You have not presented one shred of evidence that they are not stupider than the general population and there has been other evidence that they are since their qualification for residence is based on income and not wealth. 


That the community of social scientists is invested in finding for liberal positions?  Are you fucking kidding me?


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18799921 - 09/04/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

First of all, I missed anywhere in that paper where they related their findings to place of residence. They compared IQ to wealth, happiness, and health. As far as I can find, that's it. And again, this has nothing at all to do with you supporting your claim. See below.

Second, I am repeating myself on this point far too many times. You made a claim that the researchers who wrote the studies I cited (and perhaps more broadly, all social scientists; I can't tell from your wording) are personally invested, and actively seeking, to disprove any connection between IQ and wealth/income. For this claim, you have cited zero evidence. This is the claim I am asking you to support.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18800025 - 09/04/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
First of all, I missed anywhere in that paper where they related their findings to place of residence. They compared IQ to wealth, happiness, and health. As far as I can find, that's it. And again, this has nothing at all to do with you supporting your claim. See below.




Yes.  In a small group of unique subjects.  It is applicable to no one else.  See this post of yours regarding place of residence:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18765337#18765337
Quote:



Second, I am repeating myself on this point far too many times. You made a claim that the researchers who wrote the studies I cited (and perhaps more broadly, all social scientists; I can't tell from your wording) are personally invested, and actively seeking, to disprove any connection between IQ and wealth/income. For this claim, you have cited zero evidence. This is the claim I am asking you to support.




I made a claim about the social science community.  I made no claims about any specific researchers you cited.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18800150 - 09/04/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yes.  In a small group of unique subjects.  It is applicable to no one else.  See this post of yours regarding place of residence:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18765337#18765337




I think I'm confused as to the point of this post, so please clarify if I'm arguing something you didn't say.

First, the small group was actually nearly 3,000 participants. I found no reason that they were in any way not a good selection for most of the Dutch population, but I also don't know much of anything about the Dutch schooling system and therefore the Barbant survey is a little Greek to me. Regardless, I think their results can shed light on the Dutch population, but follow up studies are certainly needed to confirm their results.

Second, the authors made no claims on place of residence in their paper that I could find. So I think your post, two posts ago, is wrong. I likewise made no claims. The point I tried to make is that I don't think that income is necessarily a fair middle man to correlate IQ and government housing residents. I don't think wealth is fair to use either, but I do think it's surprising that IQ and income are correlated and IQ and wealth are not (yet?). This suggests that neither measure is a good way to gauge who will be living in government housing. I made the assumption that wealth would work a little better because those with extremely little wealth (not extremely low income) are the ones I'd consider "poor."

Regardless, this is why I wanted Simplicitry to post a direct study supporting his claim, but I saw none. And without the evidence, that I'm waiting for him to provide to support his claim, I feel like the discussion regarding place of residence is moot.


Quote:

I made a claim about the social science community.  I made no claims about any specific researchers you cited.




It doesn't change the point that you have presented an article which says most social scientists are liberal (big surprise, right?) and nothing else. Certainly no direct evidence for your claim, regardless of who it was applying to.

From what I found, the studies that I cited are a couple of the most prominent ones conducted regarding this subject, which is why I assumed your claim would also apply to them, but apparently I'm wrong. Do you believe the scientists who conducted the studies I posted were actively interested in using their results to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18800270 - 09/04/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Yes.  In a small group of unique subjects.  It is applicable to no one else.  See this post of yours regarding place of residence:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18765337#18765337




I think I'm confused as to the point of this post, so please clarify if I'm arguing something you didn't say.

First, the small group was actually nearly 3,000 participants. I found no reason that they were in any way not a good selection for most of the Dutch population, but I also don't know much of anything about the Dutch schooling system and therefore the Barbant survey is a little Greek to me. Regardless, I think their results can shed light on the Dutch population, but follow up studies are certainly needed to confirm their results.

Second, the authors made no claims on place of residence in their paper that I could find. So I think your post, two posts ago, is wrong. I likewise made no claims. The point I tried to make is that I don't think that income is necessarily a fair middle man to correlate IQ and government housing residents. I don't think wealth is fair to use either, but I do think it's surprising that IQ and income are correlated and IQ and wealth are not (yet?). This suggests that neither measure is a good way to gauge who will be living in government housing. I made the assumption that wealth would work a little better because those with extremely little wealth (not extremely low income) are the ones I'd consider "poor."




I think that was a mistake but not that important.  Wealth can come from an inheritance or a lottery ticket and has nothing to do with merit.
Quote:



 

Regardless, this is why I wanted Simplicitry to post a direct study supporting his claim, but I saw none. And without the evidence, that I'm waiting for him to provide to support his claim, I feel like the discussion regarding place of residence is moot.


Quote:

I made a claim about the social science community.  I made no claims about any specific researchers you cited.




It doesn't change the point that you have presented an article which says most social scientists are liberal (big surprise, right?) and nothing else. Certainly no direct evidence for your claim, regardless of who it was applying to.




Really?  Do you not think that the overwhelmingly liberal community of social scientists selects its studies based on their orientation?  They are human after all.
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~maccoun/ar_bias.html

Quote:

In this essay, I have cited a wealth of evidence that biased research interpretation is a common phenomenon




Quote:



From what I found, the studies that I cited are a couple of the most prominent ones conducted regarding this subject, which is why I assumed your claim would also apply to them, but apparently I'm wrong. Do you believe the scientists who conducted the studies I posted were actively interested in using their results to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income?




I could only read one study and it wasn't applicable and the authors made that self same point that it was not applicable to any other demographic.  Try this.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/02/06/correlations-of-iq-with-income-and-wealth/

Quote:

The relationship between IQ and income is somewhat correlated; in general, people with higher IQs make more money:





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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18804532 - 09/05/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think that was a mistake but not that important.  Wealth can come from an inheritance or a lottery ticket and has nothing to do with merit.




I agree, wealth does not necessarily come from merit.

Quote:

Really?  Do you not think that the overwhelmingly liberal community of social scientists selects its studies based on their orientation?  They are human after all.
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~maccoun/ar_bias.html




You're right, I think their bias will mainly portray itself in the topics they choose to study. But I found nothing wrong with their (social scientists in general) findings thus far on this topic, or the methodology they used. Therefore I don't see how they were actively trying to disprove anything.

Quote:

I could only read one study and it wasn't applicable and the authors made that self same point that it was not applicable to any other demographic.  Try this.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/02/06/correlations-of-iq-with-income-and-wealth/




So, this article you just posted, takes those two figures from Zagorsky's paper. The one I posted earlier. And you only posted half of the relevant information. From your article, very next line down:

"But the relationship between IQ and wealth is all over the map"

And the conclusions he draws, are not the same ones that Zagorsky (the person who conducted the research, not the person who looked at the figures) draws. Zagorsky states in his abstract: "Financial distress, such as problems paying bills, going bankrupt or reaching credit card limits, is related to IQ scores not linearly but instead in a quadratic relationship. This means higher IQ scores sometimes increase the probability of being in financial difficulty."

And finally, the issue with drawing conclusions from those figures, is that they do not statistically eliminate other variables. The one I'm mainly thinking of is education. It stands to reason that those with a higher IQ are more likely to pursue some form of higher education, which increases their chance of a higher wage.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18804655 - 09/05/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I cannot comment on anything about Zygorski except what is freely available.  I am not paying $30 to read them and unless you're willing to put the paper out there for all to see you should stop citing it.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18804773 - 09/05/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The abstract, which I just cited, is freely available. You can go read it if you wish. You, likewise, shouldn't cite something that you haven't read. I was pointing out the flaw in the analysis of the data you presented. Should I let misinterpretations of data go un-corrected just because the study which the data comes from costs money? And I am not going to post a study which I don't own the rights to and isn't freely available, that's stealing.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18804834 - 09/05/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You keep insisting I comment on their methodology.  Will you just fucking stop with this nonsense?


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18805408 - 09/05/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I haven't asked you to comment on their methodology since you said you didn't have free access to their paper a few days ago. I was simply pointing out that the article you pulled that info from doesn't tell the whole story and was trying to correct that.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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