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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Can we do anything wrong?
    #1880447 - 09/04/03 08:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)


As a species our actions sometimes seem to be terrible and unneccesary but perhaps they are compeletely neccessary and in the grand scheme of things it may be impossible for us to do anything wrong.

Perhaps we arent really in control of anything...Perhaps free will is an illusory mechanism that some "higher power" uses to make us move?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1880513 - 09/04/03 09:26 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:Perhaps we arent really in control of anything...Perhaps free will is an illusory mechanism that some "higher power" uses to make us move? 





I don't think we are as "free" to will as we think we are.

For the most part, human behavior is predetermined.

I was thinking about this the other day. Alot of my decisions in life have been strongly influenced by external factors which have resulted in preconcieved notions about life.

Survival is another strong influence.

although,as I grow older and feel more secure in my life I find that I become more free to think original thoughts and make my own decisions.

I think. :confused:

 


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: sirreal]
    #1880672 - 09/04/03 11:21 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think when we view things from a personal perspective it does seem like we truly have free will. But if we view ourselves as a species I wonder if we do really have free will. Even on a personal level.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: sirreal]
    #1880705 - 09/04/03 11:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think we are as "free" to will as we think we are.

But are we as "free" to think that we are free as we think we are?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: Swami]
    #1880788 - 09/04/03 12:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That's more freedom of thought than freedom of will Swami.
Anyway, freedom of will is an illusory thing, your freedom ends where mine begins.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: MAIA]
    #1880799 - 09/04/03 12:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
That's more freedom of thought than freedom of will Swami.
Anyway, freedom of will is an illusory thing, your freedom ends where mine begins.

MAIA 




I was going to say something to that effect. You said it better. :cool:

 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: sirreal]
    #1880894 - 09/04/03 01:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have posted this before, but I don't think anyone bothered to read it.  :frown:

Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) wrote an EXCELLENT essay on free will  here.
It is the first of those essays on that page, but don't forget to read every chapter.  Is is a little long, probably a little over an hour of reading.

It changed my view of the concept of free will.  Although, I find myself sometimes trying to poke holes in his theory, it seems pretty air tight. 


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1881738 - 09/04/03 06:08 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Could you give a summary of Mr Twain's take on freewill? It looks like an interesting read but I really havent got time to read it all right now!

Peace


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: Swami]
    #1882205 - 09/04/03 08:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I don't think we are as "free" to will as we think we are.

But are we as "free" to think that we are free as we think we are?



I think so... but your free to think otherwise... I think...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1882787 - 09/04/03 10:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It is quite difficult to summarize as it is a series of conversations between the "old man" and the "young man".

The old man and young man are talking, and the old man contends that humans are nothing more than machines.

The rest of the essay is the young man trying to disprove it.

It digs at the nature of humanity and free will, ultimately proving that it doesn't exist.

He poses MANY thought provoking questions on morality, nature of the spirit, and of course the topic at hand.

It goes really indepth, and summarizing it seems like an injustice to me, so PLEASE, anyone that is curious about free will, READ IT!
It changed my mind about it.  But for some reason, I haven't totally accepted it.  :wink: 


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1883597 - 09/05/03 01:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

reguarding free-will: i believe there is a chain of causation threading each life to those that have led up to it, and to those that will follow. each life is in its present condition b/c of the way the lives that led up to it were lived. throughout this causal sequence the will remains free. the lawfullnes of things makes the present state the products of prior acts, but within the present the will is influenced but not controlled. people remain at liberty to shape their destinies.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: CleverName]
    #1883614 - 09/05/03 02:05 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Read that essay and see if you still think the same way.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineShockey
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1883832 - 09/05/03 03:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Free will? Is there such a thing? Some things are Thought to as. "Meant to be". Now this brings us to witch you belive. If you belive at all anything is meant to be. Then everything in your life had to happen to lead up to that situation. Future viewing is an Example of this.

Dreams cooristponding to your life or a loved one. I've Experianced Several Parts of Dreams that happend in a single day. A whole day of me just sitting there having deja vu, Now even though everything slipped into place. I had no control. This was The most insane experiance to me. Becuase it was like I looked at the same things, heard the same things. I fell into a trance for 5-10 mins. Mind you I was not under any substances. Now this, to me. Makes me wonder if there is such a thing as free will.

Brings it down to a silly "Matrix" level. where she knows what hes already going to say. becuase.... It's kind of already been said. To me shit like that is true. If you have Experianced Any kind of REAL Deja Vu to the point where you know you've seen this before. Now think to yourself. How could You of Stopped that Deja Vu. you could'nt have. Deja Vu happens for a reason. But I doubt anyone Knows. -Shockey


--------------------
The sun and moon will Many a time rise and set.
And there are many decisions in life.
Some are wrong Some are right.
But like the sun and moon It will always go on.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1884038 - 09/05/03 06:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I like the analogy that humans are the neurons in a global brain. If we accept that analogy for a moment and also the idea that as above so below, how much free will does an individual neuron in our own brain have?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Registered: 06/16/02
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: Shockey]
    #1884419 - 09/05/03 10:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I know exactly what you mean about that whole 'deja vu' thing (much much more then I'll ever care to admit) and I know for a fact that there's definately something to it because of one particular situation I found myself in that absolutely proved beyond a shadow of a doubt (in my mind and to a few of my friends) that there had to be more to deja vu then what most people think...and the most ironic thing about this whole experience is that it happened during the first time I saw The Matrix. I went to see it with a bunch of my friends the very first day it came out (and the very first showing to boot) and throughout the entire movie I *knew* I had seen it before...so much so that I was not only explaining what was going to happen next continually throughout the film, but I also recieted a couple of the scenes verbatim...it's was kinda spooky actually.

Oddly enought though, when I went back home (after hanging out with my friends till damn near 3 o'clock the following morning) my old man was all butt hurt about about my leaving without letting him know where I was going and not calling to check in or anything, so he kicked me out (which was actually something he made quite a habbit of in those days) and I ended up spending the night at the local drive-in for almost a month straight because of it...watching The Matrix every single night, and basically memorizing pretty much the entire fricken thing.




So that whole experience coupled with the fact that quite a bit of the rest of my life has been one seemingly non-stop perpetual deja vu experience has led me to believe that I'm stuck in some kind of cosmic rut where I'm going to continue to re-live the same exact lifetime indefinately for all eternity...which, as I'm sure you can guess, is a real downer. ...BUT... I've recently began to delude myself into thinking that I eventualy reach my Superman potential (sometime later on in this lifetime) and in doing so, choose to continue to re-live the same exact life over and over and over again based off of some false asumption that I can be perfectly content in doing so...either that, or it's because of some moment of weakness shortly after death in which I suddenly decide "yes, I survived!...let's do it again" in much the same way as a bungee jumpist might feel after nearly craping himself on the way down, but then decides he actually enjoyed the entire experience once it was all said and done.

Either way though - I'm sure I'll be back here some day typing this same exact message once again.


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Invisibletak
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1884483 - 09/05/03 11:01 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If you know all the rules, you can predict the moves.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: tak]
    #1885242 - 09/05/03 02:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"If you know all the rules, you can predict the moves. "

It would be impossible to fully be able to calculate the future as this would necessitate building a model of all of reality, and what would we make it out of?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: Phluck]
    #1885299 - 09/05/03 02:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
"If you know all the rules, you can predict the moves. "

It would be impossible to fully be able to calculate the future as this would necessitate building a model of all of reality, and what would we make it out of?



True, also, in order to measure the state of a system the system
will inevitably be altered, hence the Uncertainity principle.
Simple explaination of this is: in order to accurately measure
the length of a stick u have to place a ruler next to it, the
further the ruler the more inaccurate the measurement, in order
to increase the accuracy u must bring the ruler closer n closer,
at the point of contact it's touching the stick and hence
deforming it (however miniscule) so it's affecting the measurement.
I devised the explaination to explain to my mom, hope it's an
appropriate analogy to bombarding electrons (most people can't
relate to that).


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1886056 - 09/05/03 06:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mystical_Craven said:
choose to continue to re-live the same exact life over and over and over again based off of some false asumption that I can be perfectly content in doing so...




What's that damned movie, K-Pex or something? Where the guy in the mental institution is suspossed to be the alien from the planet K-Pex, and he goes about doing all sorts of cool stuff (like filling in the astronomer's charts..).

Anyways, I can't quote this exactly, but the alien is like "We've come to understand something that you haven't yet thought of, and that we will be continously stuck, re-living every moment in this life for all eternity, and that this is the only time.." can't really remember the quote at all.

I am a failure. Anyone who has seen this movie can fix this for me?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineClover
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Registered: 08/01/03
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Re: Can we do anything wrong? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1893691 - 09/08/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

[quoteWhat's that damned movie, K-Pex or something? Where the guy in the mental institution is suspossed to be the alien from the planet K-Pex, and he goes about doing all sorts of cool stuff (like filling in the astronomer's charts..).
Anyways, I can't quote this exactly, but the alien is like "We've come to understand something that you haven't yet thought of, and that we will be continously stuck, re-living every moment in this life for all eternity, and that this is the only time.." can't really remember the quote at all.
I am a failure. Anyone who has seen this movie can fix this for me?
Peace.




" I wanna tell you something Mark, something you do not yet know, that we K-PAXians have been around long enough to have discovered. The universe will expand, then it will collapse back on itself, then will expand again. It will repeat this process forever. What you don't you know is that when the universe expands again, everything will be as it is now. Whatever mistakes you make this time around, you will live through on your next pass. Every mistake you make, you will live through again, & again, forever. So my advice to you is to get it right this time around. Because this time is all you have."


--------------------
"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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