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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
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Loc: Ottawa
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Is trying to save the environment a lost cause?
#18803757 - 09/05/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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The population keeps rising, we are more dependant on oil than ever, more land will be needed for farming, industry is beating its own production records every day. More houses are need, more wood, more water, more, more, more
You can make things more energy efficient but in the end, unless a great discovery is made, the natural growth of the world will always be greater than the efficiency development. I mean it's good that we try, but it seems we'll never be able to catch up with growing rate of pollution.
There is some good news though. China is planning on investing 474 billion a year on the environment. That should help but It doesn't change the fact that population will still increase.
Is this a war we can win or are we just delaying the inevitable?
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MisterSandman
Neo Nazi



Registered: 03/23/13
Posts: 2,936
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Patlal]
#18803773 - 09/05/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: The population keeps rising, we are more dependant on oil than ever, more land will be needed for farming, industry is beating its own production records every day. More houses are need, more wood, more water, more, more, more
You can make things more energy efficient but in the end, unless a great discovery is made, the natural growth of the world will always be greater than the efficiency development. I mean it's good that we try, but it seems we'll never be able to catch up with growing rate of pollution.
There is some good news though. China is planning on investing 474 billion a year on the environment. That should help but It doesn't change the fact that population will still increase.
Is this a war we can win or are we just delaying the inevitable?
Probably, It's like trying to turn an aircraft carrier around with a canoe paddle, too much momentum.
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Futuresight
Mind Mage



Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 1,188
Loc: The Candy Kingdom
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Patlal]
#18803775 - 09/05/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hmm....I am neither optimistic enough to say that we can still win, but pessimistic enough to say that we are doomed. I think we are on the crux of that possibility. At this point it is a lean in either direction that will set us on our final or not final path.
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Futuresight]
#18803801 - 09/05/13 03:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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IMO the most we can hope for is to make it more habitable for ourselves. It doesn't need "saving" per se, life will probably continue even if we drive ourselves extinct.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Futuresight] 1
#18803802 - 09/05/13 03:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Only if everyone has the brainless "we're already fucked so let's fuck it up some more" attitude.
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Synthe
Gatorade me, bitch!



Registered: 11/10/12
Posts: 7,961
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Patlal]
#18803828 - 09/05/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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We're already fucked to an extent but that's no excuse to stop caring. We gotta set an example for the next generations and hope they don't fuck up like the last few generations have
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Futuresight] 2
#18803852 - 09/05/13 03:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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We have exactly one real route to continuing our level of success as a species for a long period of time. Fusion. Everything else is bunk.
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Lynnch
Strangerer



Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 7,855
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Synthe]
#18803856 - 09/05/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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We've only been really fucking up for the last hundred years. We need to get out shit together and think ahead instead of just trying to make a quick buck.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Lynnch]
#18803910 - 09/05/13 04:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Change ourselves to change the world, then it's possible
or .. LSD for everyone ;-)
then there would be no abuse of nature
it's not a lost cause, nature brings happiness to everyone even those that don't realize it,they will realize it later
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Shroomslip
Architekt



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Patlal]
#18803918 - 09/05/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think it probably is but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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circularvortex
Bass Head



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Patlal]
#18803978 - 09/05/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nah man we're gonna figure it out.
Solar and wind power keeps getting cheaper and cheaper and more and more efficient.
We had a good 100 years of industry without considering the environment, but we're starting to come around now. Right now we have TONS of cool eco friendly shit (solar powered roads, home windmills, water filtrations etc etc etc), it's just getting it into the infrastructure that is a problem.
We'll get there, though.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, federal, or fashion police laws. All posts are works of fiction. For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool By making his world a little colder. Under closer inspection I realised it was a funky ball of tits from outer space.
 
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The5thElement
Smile Friends :)



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18803988 - 09/05/13 04:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: We have exactly one real route to continuing our level of success as a species for a long period of time. Fusion. Everything else is bunk.
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: circularvortex]
#18804080 - 09/05/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circularvortex said: Nah man we're gonna figure it out.
Solar and wind power keeps getting cheaper and cheaper and more and more efficient.
We had a good 100 years of industry without considering the environment, but we're starting to come around now. Right now we have TONS of cool eco friendly shit (solar powered roads, home windmills, water filtrations etc etc etc), it's just getting it into the infrastructure that is a problem.
We'll get there, though. 
Over half of our energy comes from coal. How are you going to replace that? You're not.
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Amphibolos
Le bourgeois gentilhomme




Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 626
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: setb]
#18804130 - 09/05/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
setb said:
Quote:
circularvortex said: Nah man we're gonna figure it out.
Solar and wind power keeps getting cheaper and cheaper and more and more efficient.
We had a good 100 years of industry without considering the environment, but we're starting to come around now. Right now we have TONS of cool eco friendly shit (solar powered roads, home windmills, water filtrations etc etc etc), it's just getting it into the infrastructure that is a problem.
We'll get there, though. 
Over half of our energy comes from coal. How are you going to replace that? You're not.
You could use the human wastes to produce biomethane and create energy in the same manner as they produce energy with coal. The difference is that you take something that is going straight into a landfill and you turn it into a valuable ressource
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"Homo sum ; humani nihil a me alienum puto"
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18804145 - 09/05/13 04:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: We have exactly one real route to continuing our level of success as a species for a long period of time. Fusion. Everything else is bunk.
I don't think efficient use of tidal/geothermal/solar (2nd hand fusion..) energy is bunk, but yeah fusion is definitely the holy grail.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: twighead]
#18804201 - 09/05/13 05:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
twighead said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: We have exactly one real route to continuing our level of success as a species for a long period of time. Fusion. Everything else is bunk.
I don't think efficient use of tidal/geothermal/solar (2nd hand fusion..) energy is bunk, but yeah fusion is definitely the holy grail.
I'm sure fusion will be a reality in 100 years, perhaps less
they are starting to get more energy out than they put in :-)
my friend just did his master thesis on a tokamak (the thing that confines the plasma for fusion), hopefully he will help create fusion
my energy bill is so high I hardly have any money to live for :-)
I like the idea of alternative energy sources though use less, but clean energy
same with organic foods, use less, but clean food grown with respect for the environment
Edited by lessismore (09/05/13 05:15 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: twighead]
#18804245 - 09/05/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
twighead said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: We have exactly one real route to continuing our level of success as a species for a long period of time. Fusion. Everything else is bunk.
I don't think efficient use of tidal/geothermal/solar (2nd hand fusion..) energy is bunk, but yeah fusion is definitely the holy grail.
Solar has its own toxicity issues and tidal/geothermal are extremely limited
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18804275 - 09/05/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
twighead said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: We have exactly one real route to continuing our level of success as a species for a long period of time. Fusion. Everything else is bunk.
I don't think efficient use of tidal/geothermal/solar (2nd hand fusion..) energy is bunk, but yeah fusion is definitely the holy grail.
Solar has its own toxicity issues and tidal/geothermal are extremely limited
In current forms yeah. But we're talking about this alongside fusion - so future is presumed, all 3 of these technologies have massive potential and tech will improve inevitably.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: twighead]
#18804377 - 09/05/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
twighead said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
twighead said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: We have exactly one real route to continuing our level of success as a species for a long period of time. Fusion. Everything else is bunk.
I don't think efficient use of tidal/geothermal/solar (2nd hand fusion..) energy is bunk, but yeah fusion is definitely the holy grail.
Solar has its own toxicity issues and tidal/geothermal are extremely limited
In current forms yeah. But we're talking about this alongside fusion - so future is presumed, all 3 of these technologies have massive potential and tech will improve inevitably.
I don't really see it. Solar is useless in the North, tidal in the interior and geothermal is good for heating and cooling but not much else. We have to build our own suns or we will be fucked eventually.
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18804430 - 09/05/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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The output of top of the line geothermal sites already produce about what the top of the line fission reactors do (~1600MWe) - The setup of 1300~ MW tidal plants is already underway - and while solar is slightly lagging in scale (about 250MW plants atm) total output over the '11-'12 year increased by 60%... at that rate we'll be making a dent in things and quickly. Yeah fusion is just like - unlimited power - on our scale. But we don't have to be totally helplessly dependent on coal/dirty power up to that point.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: twighead]
#18804486 - 09/05/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
twighead said: The output of top of the line geothermal sites already produce about what the top of the line fission reactors do (~1600MWe) - The setup of 1300~ MW tidal plants is already underway - and while solar is slightly lagging in scale (about 250MW plants atm) total output over the '11-'12 year increased by 60%... at that rate we'll be making a dent in things and quickly. Yeah fusion is just like - unlimited power - on our scale. But we don't have to be totally helplessly dependent on coal/dirty power up to that point.
I always wondered why no one harvested the energy of volcanoes
Didn't even know it was being done, but it seems logical
It is thermal energy we harvest if we do coal, nuclear reactors ,.... (since the heat drives a turbine)
so why not volcanoes too?
free energy in great amounts likely, due to lots of heat
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: lessismore]
#18804547 - 09/05/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Geothermal is not volcanoes. You dig a hole in the ground and you can exploit any temperature difference to extract energy.
I am not aware of any serious geothermal sources of major energy. Perhaps twighead would be so kind as to give a link.......
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18804602 - 09/05/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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http://www.geysers.com/
There's a link to the largest complex right now.
Basically - its just dropping water into a naturally superheated reservoir - then collecting the steam created in the turbine etc.
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Magicman69
All About the Benjamins



Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,876
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: twighead]
#18804771 - 09/05/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I honestly think there is no stopping globalization and the eventual demise of our planet due to over development.
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twighead
mͯó



Registered: 08/27/08
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Magicman69]
#18804812 - 09/05/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why would the planet give a shit? It's gone through being a ball of magma, a giant iceball - for millions of years at a time - even if our challenge was to eradicate all the life on the planet we would struggle thoroughly with that - destroying the planet entirely aside. No. You mean - OUR demise. Not the planets.
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: twighead]
#18804880 - 09/05/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yep, it's really how livable the planet will be for us that's the issue. Doubtless many other life forms will go extinct, but that's nothing new.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: twighead]
#18804882 - 09/05/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
twighead said: Why would the planet give a shit? It's gone through being a ball of magma, a giant iceball - for millions of years at a time - even if our challenge was to eradicate all the life on the planet we would struggle thoroughly with that - destroying the planet entirely aside. No. You mean - OUR demise. Not the planets.
Yep. In the beginning oxygen was poisonous to life on earth.
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Amphibolos
Le bourgeois gentilhomme




Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 626
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18805041 - 09/05/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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See Subsurface Lithotrophic Microbial Ecosystem for reference...
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"Homo sum ; humani nihil a me alienum puto"
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druqs
ALKALOIDOHOLIC


Registered: 09/11/06
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Amphibolos]
#18805086 - 09/05/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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saying it is a lost cause would mean nothing, get on your bike and lets sort this mess!
wouldn't it be great if a thousand years in the future we are being awarded for being passionate about all forms of life!
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: druqs]
#18805091 - 09/05/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You can be rewarded for that now, with loooooove   
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Xingu
Stranger

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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18807114 - 09/06/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I don't really see it. Solar is useless in the North, tidal in the interior and geothermal is good for heating and cooling but not much else. We have to build our own suns or we will be fucked eventually.
In the North of what, the US or Northern Hemisphere? Northern US gets plenty of sun for solar, particularly as the prices continue to drop, making it stupidly cheap. In any case, energy captured in the south can be transported north, the amount of radiation available in the south is pretty silly. Fusion would be nice, though the economics of it may not pan out as well as lower tech solutions like solar, wind, and geothermal.

Germany has far less sun than anywhere in the US other than Alaska, yet is doing fine with much of its grid as consumer-owned solar.
Twighead, it means far more than our demise. It would be pretty irresponsible for us to wipe out a ton of species on our way to a potential human extinction level event...but hey, I guess it presents a strong adaptive stressor to promote accelerated natural selection amongst the rest of life here.
Edited by Xingu (09/06/13 11:50 AM)
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Xingu]
#18807123 - 09/06/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Xingu said: Germany has far less sun than anywhere in the US other than Alaska, yet is doing fine with much of its grid as consumer-owned solar.
Interesting, but is the government subsidizing the equipment or anything?
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Xingu
Stranger

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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: psi]
#18807146 - 09/06/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
psi said: Interesting, but is the government subsidizing the equipment or anything?
Yes, though that's not at all necessary. Remove subsidies from all energy sources in the US, and renewables actually gain an advantage. Government needs to divest from the energy sector altogether, imo. Obama isn't an investment genius, I'd rather not have him making decisions on which companies to throw money at...A123 and Solyndra have been evidence of that.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Xingu]
#18807227 - 09/06/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Xingu said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I don't really see it. Solar is useless in the North, tidal in the interior and geothermal is good for heating and cooling but not much else. We have to build our own suns or we will be fucked eventually.
In the North of what, the US or Northern Hemisphere? Northern US gets plenty of sun for solar, particularly as the prices continue to drop, making it stupidly cheap. In any case, energy captured in the south can be transported north, the amount of radiation available in the south is pretty silly. Fusion would be nice, though the economics of it may not pan out as well as lower tech solutions like solar, wind, and geothermal.
So you like great big giant batteries full of toxic metals and chemicals? Solar is a dead end. Wind chops up millions and millions of birds. geothermal is good for heating and cooling.
We are fucked as a civilization if we do not develop fusion. It is as simple as that. Fossil fuels will run out some day although not any time soon. Uranium will run out with the same caveat. The other stuff has no chance of ever replacing them in any meaningful way. We probably have about century to make fusion work on a large enough scale. That is the only solar power worth a wank. The scientific sun.Quote:

Germany has far less sun than anywhere in the US other than Alaska, yet is doing fine with much of its grid as consumer-owned solar.
Quote:
The German new solar PV installations increased by about 7.6 GW in 2012, and solar PV provided 18 TWh (billion kilowatt-hours) of electricity in 2011, about 3% of total electricity.
Fucking spare me.Quote:
Twighead, it means far more than our demise. It would be pretty irresponsible for us to wipe out a ton of species on our way to a potential human extinction level event...but hey, I guess it presents a strong adaptive stressor to promote accelerated natural selection amongst the rest of life here.
Fuck 'em. They are all going to go extinct someday anyway.
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Xingu
Stranger

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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: zappaisgod]
#18841145 - 09/14/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: So you like great big giant batteries full of toxic metals and chemicals? Solar is a dead end. Wind chops up millions and millions of birds. geothermal is good for heating and cooling.
You may want to do some research on the direction that battery research is going if that's your perception of batteries. Furthermore, lithium batteries are recyclable, so the use of batteries doesn't create a perpetual demand of resources as other fuels do. I suppose your logic on why solar installations continue to grow at 30+% yearly is what, subsidy money? 1300-2000W/m^2 is a silly amount of energy to be so readily available, suggesting that it's a dead end is pure nonsense, especially given that the benefits of production can go directly to the consumer.
Quote:
zappaisgod said: The German new solar PV installations increased by about 7.6 GW in 2012, and solar PV provided 18 TWh (billion kilowatt-hours) of electricity in 2011, about 3% of total electricity.
Proves my point even more, in July they broke 5.1TWh for the month. Watch how quickly that number grows going forward. We have to start somewhere, this situation didn't create itself overnight, and it won't fix itself overnight. We can't simply cross our fingers and say fuck it, drill, drill, drill and hope fusion is practical in time.
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Fuck 'em. They are all going to go extinct someday anyway.
So, plants and animals die, what are you planning to eat? Food from greenhouses surrounded by a barren wasteland? The Thunderdome was cool and all, but fuck that shit. All for the sake of the continuation of something as pathetic as human beings? Where is the logic here?
Edited by Xingu (09/14/13 01:39 PM)
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omegafaust
mycofarmer



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Xingu]
#18841170 - 09/14/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You should read The world Inside. it tells a story of how the human race was able to over populate yet still leave most of the planet for farming.
and at the end, the question arises, was it the right choice? And the fact that regardless of what we choose, life will go on, at least among society, as long as it can.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
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Aedan



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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: omegafaust]
#18841294 - 09/14/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Solar will cut energy dependency significantly in the future when the technology advances. Not only photovoltaic cells becoming cheaper but solar thermal energy as well. Especially in hot sunny places like in the southwest. Every house should have solar panels in the future. Solar is not sufficient when it is centralized. There's also solar paint which is being developed that can harvest solar energy. It's not the sole solution but it will help. Battery technology will also advance and it will allow electric cars to become more prominent. We need faster charging and higher capacity batteries. Electric motors are far more efficient than combustion engines.
Edited by Aedan (09/14/13 02:43 PM)
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Aedan



Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 950
Loc: the desert
Last seen: 9 months, 2 days
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Aedan]
#18841358 - 09/14/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I live in phoenix by the way and I personally know someone who basically has their entire roof covered in solar panels. It creates so much energy that he doesn't even use it all and he makes money selling energy into the grid.
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Amphibolos
Le bourgeois gentilhomme




Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 626
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Aedan]
#18854096 - 09/17/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Stanford Scientists Use 'Wired Microbes' To Generate Electricity From Sewage
They use wastewater to produce electricity, i saw a similar experience that is working here in Quebec in a larger scale. Standford use wastewater, Quebec use porcine dejections. What is interesting of those "biobattery" is their yield of electricity production.
Quote:
The Stanford engineers estimate that the microbial battery can extract about 30 percent of the potential energy locked in wastewater. That is roughly the same efficiency at which the best commercially available solar cells convert sunlight into electricity.
Of course, there is far less energy potential in wastewater. Even so, the inventors say the microbial battery is worth pursuing because it could offset some of the electricity now use to treat wastewater. That use currently accounts for about three percent of the total electrical load in developed nations. Most of this electricity goes toward pumping air into wastewater at conventional treatment plants where ordinary bacteria use oxygen in the course of digestion, just like humans and other animals.
Looking ahead, the Stanford engineers say their biggest challenge will be finding a cheap but efficient material for the positive node.
"We demonstrated the principle using silver oxide, but silver is too expensive for use at large scale," said Cui, an associate professor of materials science and engineering, who is also affiliated with the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory. "Though the search is underway for a more practical material, finding a substitute will take time."
See, another way to turn something that is disregarded (waste) into valuable ressources
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"Homo sum ; humani nihil a me alienum puto"
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Shortknight



Registered: 02/25/13
Posts: 2,164
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Is trying to save the environment a lost cause? [Re: Amphibolos]
#18854386 - 09/17/13 04:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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There's always sense in making a point of trying. If all else fails I know where I can go
Shorty
-------------------- Did I say it too loud? Big heart? Or a little misleading!
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