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Invisiblesomething super extreme
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800439 - 09/04/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think either of you are having a coherent conversation anymore, and I've yet to see you post anything about why sampling is bad. Just being butthurt because Jay Z sampled a song you like a little too much.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800443 - 09/04/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

he used a sample. a sample in which wasn't owned by the Doors. their composition is owned, not the samples in with which Jay-Z made the beat. the samples are arranged in a particularly different melody then the original Doors song; and none of the samples match up cohesively to make any one piece of the Doors composition. the only recognizable parts is maybe the fact of the harmony between the bass note and the kick drum, and the fact of Morrison's wailing in the background. sounds like any blues crooner at that point; you can't even barely recognize the lyrics he's saying, and all he's really saying is "oh baby yeah"

i see no stealing here. Jay-Z did him a professional courtesy by even contacting him.
Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
guys, i just copyrighted the song i made, with that 4/4 Jazz Ride i used. no more Jazz for you!1 i'll sue if you use ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding.

:ripebanana:




You don't know what sampling is, do you?  It all makes sense now.  No offense, but I'm just figuring out why we aren't communicating at all.  You have no idea what sampling is. 





no, i just have told in so many different ways, and you still don't get it. confusion. it happens. :shrug:

i can only tell you so many times. unless it's a whole composition one is sampling, it's not stealing. :shrug: and you shouldn't have to pay, because YOU OWN THE SAMPLES.


Edited by akira_akuma (09/04/13 06:38 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800452 - 09/04/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
guys, i just copyrighted the song i made, with that 4/4 Jazz Ride i used. no more Jazz for you!1 i'll sue if you use ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding.

:ripebanana:




You don't know what sampling is, do you?  It all makes sense now.  No offense, but I'm just figuring out why we aren't communicating at all.  You have no idea what sampling is. 





says the person talking about ownership of a song, not sampling. :lol:



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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18800475 - 09/04/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
unless it's a whole composition one is sampling, it's not stealing. :shrug:




Okay, so what if it's 99% that one is sampling?  Is that stealing?  And don't say that no one does that.  I'm asking a hypothetical question. 
















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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18800520 - 09/04/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:






That tortured version completely sounds like SHIT, but I guess it was supposed to...:icanthearyou: . . . :peace:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: vinsue]
    #18800564 - 09/04/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
I'm not talking about songs that sound similar.  I'm talking about using someone's actual music in your music.  What portion of their song can you use from their song in your song before you have to pay?  From 1%-100%?



PS: YOU ARE talking about SOUNDS that SOUND SIMILAR however. again, i'll use this example.

Quote:

just because someone randomly made a beat with simple enough composition that it can be heard in any 4/4 drum beat, doesn't mean they should be able to copyright and deny people to right to use a simple piece of composition that would (and will) come out of any artist, anyways.




^

now if i had a copyright to this.

i could prevent people from sampling my beat. however. it would be pointless (to me especially, being that i don't care about trying to making money of off "copyrights" which have nothing to do with anyone stealing anything but that's besides my point...) it would be pointless to have copy right over it, because it's a simple thing that would be replicated in any amount by anyone trying to make any kind of simple rock beat... but lets say that i do...

it wouldn't be possible for anyone to sample "my work" without it sounding exactly the same as what i did, and what i've copyrighted.

now, if anyone did though, i'd have no way of proving it was mine by simply hearing it. i'd have to look up sample's data, to even begin to look into any give aways as to the tracking of said part of said song, that was sampled. (if there was any chance of that anyways; i mean hardly anything can be determined by looking at a sample other then maybe when it was made, which i guess could be seen as proof, that why you have copyright laws protecting your songs. certainly not pieces of it though, thankfully. i hate hypotheticals.)

lets say hypothetically because
Quote:

i don't care about trying to making money of off "copyrights" which have nothing to do with anyone stealing anything




lets say hypothetically that i don't care to look up any "data", i will decide upon hearing it, to proclaim if it was mine or not. i could do that, but it wouldn't mean anything, because it's a simple piece of music can be easily replicated anywhere.

but lets say i'm a dick, and i decide that it was my music afterall, then i look up the data, and oop there it is... tracking from a certain RIP, and look at the title and track time and SHOCK it's my song that i copyrighted!1 (you'd have to look up entire libraries of tracks and data to determine anything, boy i must have been having hot flashes when i typed this, Jesus. hypotheticals.)

now i have the right to insist that this production is no viable for sale, because it had the simple piece of composition that i worked very little at, and copyrighted. how is that right, in anyway for anyone, but someone who is simply trying to make money of their indulgence in a Law.

this isn't about music. this is about money.

music isn't a commodity, and never will be, because it's all too easy to arrange sounds and even pieces of composition, that sound alike. so to treat it like one, by making Sampling prohibited without incurring royalties to the "origin" of the piece of composition; makes music and musicians worse off, because it narrows the compositional decisions you can make, because afterall, someone else will have always made a piece of similar music before you, and if you can copyright those pieces of music, you make it unavailable to anyone else. whether you are writing it yourself, or taking sample of someone else's song.

it's the EXACT SAME DEVICE.

it's wrong in either or capacity.
Quote:

vinsue said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:






That tortured version completely sounds like SHIT, but I guess it was supposed to...:icanthearyou: . . . :peace:



exactly. (the tortured version :lol: )


Edited by akira_akuma (09/04/13 11:43 PM)


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800605 - 09/04/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
guys, i just copyrighted the song i made, with that 4/4 Jazz Ride i used. no more Jazz for you!1 i'll sue if you use ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding.

:ripebanana:




You don't know what sampling is, do you?  It all makes sense now.  No offense, but I'm just figuring out why we aren't communicating at all.  You have no idea what sampling is. 




















I hate to tell you this but akira not only understands sampling better than you do he knows way more about music in general. You're not even remotely in his league.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800639 - 09/04/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
unless it's a whole composition one is sampling, it's not stealing. :shrug:




Okay, so what if it's 99% that one is sampling?  Is that stealing?  And don't say that no one does that.  I'm asking a hypothetical question. 


















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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800691 - 09/04/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
unless it's a whole composition one is sampling, it's not stealing. :shrug:




Okay, so what if it's 99% that one is sampling?  Is that stealing?  And don't say that no one does that.  I'm asking a hypothetical question. 


















round up. 99% is really awfully close to 100. yes, it's stealing.

Jay-Z didn't use any where near that amount of a song in his song.

he used a couple pieces of the beginning of the song he sampled, and rearranged them. if you wanna use a percentage, i'd say... what... 10-20% :shrug:not the figures actually matter.


Edited by akira_akuma (09/04/13 07:49 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18800732 - 09/04/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
yes, it's stealing.




What if he used 98% of the song?  Would that be stealing or sampling?
















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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800758 - 09/04/13 07:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

stealing. where are you going with this line of reasoning?

in the case of cheesy pop music like Jay z i would agree that he shouldn't have done it, but who am i to say what has artistic merit to Jay z? i think i actually saw his point in using juxtaposing genres of music in his work, to expand his sound.

however you don't understand the artistic scope of using samples, to be blunt.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18800790 - 09/04/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Stay with me, Akira.  You're doing fine.  Now how about.......90%.  Would it be stealing or sampling if he used that much of the song? 















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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800801 - 09/04/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

it's irrelevant. you see? you're talking about intellectual property ownership. you're not talking about sampling. you're just paraphrasing. don't get the two terms confused, when you wanna make a point about Jay-Z being a poser, or about Rap sucking or whatever it is you're really posting about.


oh and Mozart did it to. that and every other major classical composer has taken from other people's works.

copyright laws, at this point, are a farce; and they always will be with the attitude that people own musicianship. :facepalm:

you did good Leary.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18800815 - 09/04/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

No, you said it was sampling unless you used the entire song.  Then you deviated down to 98%, which isn't the entire song.  Now come on.  Is using 90% of a song stealing or sampling?  Please.
















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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18800829 - 09/04/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I hate Jay Z, i have no problem with sampling songs though. I think music and art in general should be public domain.


It isn't like that is even one of Jay Z's more popular songs anyway. I just looked it up and shit i could flow better than that :shrug:


If you want to get pissed off just remember this jerkoff is richer than you could ever imagine to be.



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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18800895 - 09/04/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

this is why Morrison went bananas, he was so afraid of people sampling his music!1

oh the horror!1 my moral shareholders bankrupted!1 WOE!!! WOEEEE WAS MEEEEEEE *stuffs Peyote into his gut and melts*
Quote:

Learyfan said:
No, you said it was sampling unless you used the entire song.  Then you deviated down to 98%, which isn't the entire song.  Now come on.  Is using 90% of a song stealing or sampling?  Please.



















like i said, i'm rounding up, if it'd help you in your definition of the boundaries of your logic that you don't want anyone skipping over.

you want to come to en passe? lets stop playing rhetorical mind games.

i won't round up, because you're reasoning for telling me "i'm deviating" has nothing to do with sampling. it has to with the fact that you think the Doors has been infringed on.

stealing is taking someone's song and passing it off as your own. you know how Led Zeppelin did that? they were a major cause for the laws to be as strict as they now, because they ACTUALLY infringed on other people's work by composing pieces that sounded almost exactly alike.

that's stealing.

now in the case of sampling, this is another matter entirely. no one is stealing, per se, but they (according to you) should have to pay money to the artist's music you've sampled.

this isn't stealing however, because they are not stealing actual songs. this is where your logic ends. let me explain how sampling is distinct from stealing, AGAIN.

when you sample pieces of music... you are essentially using pieces of other artist's composition's. not the whole thing. hence, it isn't steal. let me re-iterate... because you have no stolen and passed off other people's work as your own, you're NOT STEALING.

now onto the problem you have with sampling. you think that if you sample even a certain amount of anyone's work, you are stealing if you don't pay them, correct? i am telling you, that you are wrong. not according to the law, but we all know how that discussion is gonna go, drugs politics, blah whatever...

YOU'RE NOT STEALING A WHOLE WORK, SO IT'S NOT PASSING OFF SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK AS YOUR OWN.

let me explain that concept.

because pieces of music... notes, progressions, types of composition, ect; are only part of a whole and not the whole of someone's individual work. it's not up for someone's pursuit for "intellectual property", because with the exchange of these pieces of composition, it would have made it impossible to keep track of any new pieces of work as you've have to use inane and awful sounding notes and composition to avoid any financial responsibility to the own of all the pieces of music.

again, i'll use classical music as an example; if classical musicians such as Mozart could have copyrighted their work [[if they wanted to]] they could have prevented anyone from ever making anything original again, within a lifetime, simply making a work, copyrighting it, reframing and rearranging said composition into new arrays of notes and sequences, to make new songs to copyright ad nauseum until he had concluded that all his work up till a certain point was his and HIS ALONE. which would bar anyone from making music, in general, meaning, no [[the Doors]]. which is besides the point.

if you're sampling music, you're not stealing it, for sure. if you're sampling music and not paying the artist for a tid bit of a track that is separated from the other pieces of composition in a song, you're not stealing, and it's not a part of "their song, anymore".

to make the distinction here, if you sample a tid bit of a song that has the whole composition in it, such as a chorus line... a verse of lyrics... a cresendo or a main part, without rearranging it, you are stealing.

however, if you're rearranging it, it's being used a sequence of "notes and progressions" that aren't inherent to the original song hence, is NOT STEALING.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18800937 - 09/04/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

there are just different schools of thought on this matter.

some people want music to only be about mop-top douches rocking out and being "the best evar, so much soul!" and about hipster wads trying to out-jazz anyone else with their endless barrages of notes on guitar, so they can give people a catalouge of crap to work off of, if they pay them.

:shrug:

some people don't care about being famous or making lots of money, and being relatively well-off, because they made a song, or an album or two, of good music; trying to live off of there whole lives.

some people want to just see and hear musicians strive for their music to be original and lauded as the awesome pieces of music that they are, without needed to be lauded as something important enough to sue over. :shrug2:


Edited by akira_akuma (09/04/13 08:52 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18800967 - 09/04/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)



how many pieces of music can you recognize already in this song? plenty! is it illegal? NOPE! :grin: did anyone have to pay?! NOPE!1 :smile: because you can't own "PIECES OF MUSIC". :gameover:


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
    #18801055 - 09/04/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
if you're rearranging it, it's being used a sequence of "notes and progressions" that aren't inherent to the original song hence, is NOT STEALING.




So if I were to release an entire Doors album in full, except that each song has one second of noise other than what the original album had, in the middle of each song, then I should be able to legally sell that album to people as my own creation?  The songs are technically rearranged, because they are split in two by that one second of some other noise, and thus it's not stealing.  Yes or no. 















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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
    #18801059 - 09/04/13 09:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Is using 90% of a song stealing or sampling?




Who the hell samples 90% of a song?

Are we straw-manning here?


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