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lowbrow
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: imachavel]
#18798655 - 09/04/13 10:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said: [but the fact remains that if someone changes the song and takes full credit for taking a piece of the original and changing it, it's no longer the original.
Then your no longer making original art, your piggybacking off of someone else's creativity and calling it your own. That is mediocrity at its finest.
In fact, this whole thread is full of people defending mediocrity.
-------------------- Amanita86 said: Sui is trying to mod right now. Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..
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jewunit
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: lowbrow] 1
#18798660 - 09/04/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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No, you're piggybacking off someone's creativity, calling it your own, and crediting them. This is also the way in which almost all music exists and was created. It's pretty hard to have a completely original idea in what is a very limited system (particularly western music).
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lowbrow
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: jewunit]
#18799119 - 09/04/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jewunit said: No, you're piggybacking off someone's creativity, calling it your own, and crediting them. This is also the way in which almost all music exists and was created. It's pretty hard to have a completely original idea in what is a very limited system (particularly western music).
They dont always get credited. There's a difference between being inspired, and ripping off the artist entirely and adding some nursery rhymes and calling it your own. But if they paid the original artist for the opportunity to do this, whatever. But falsely representing oneself as somebody fighting the system to aquire the rights, when in fact they(J Z) is one of the biggest tools going, is downright bullshit.
-------------------- Amanita86 said: Sui is trying to mod right now. Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..
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something super extreme
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: The Vapor]
#18799421 - 09/04/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Vapor said:
Quote:
sVs said: Who gives two shits and a sideways fuck? Clearly he didn't have as much of an issue with selling his music as you have with him selling his music.
What I find more appalling than some shitty rapper using someone else's music is the amount of overzealous reverence some people have for nearly equally shitty music.
Do you have any other tricks or are you just going to keep doing this one for the duration of your stay?
Do you ever fucking have anything mildly relevant to add, or are you going to continue talking about edginess and some such other stupid shit for the rest of time? Worse than a broken record.
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akira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: lowbrow]
#18800028 - 09/04/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
lowbrow said:
Quote:
imachavel said: [but the fact remains that if someone changes the song and takes full credit for taking a piece of the original and changing it, it's no longer the original.
Then your no longer making original art, your piggybacking off of someone else's creativity and calling it your own. That is mediocrity at its finest.
In fact, this whole thread is full of people defending mediocrity.
LOL, another Jimi fan for sure.
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Learyfan
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Dawks]
#18800080 - 09/04/13 04:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Don't you hate when you come back to a thread and it would take you half a day to respond to everyone? I guess I'll just make my stance clear to everyone. I understand if you all don't agree. It's okay.
- First off, I do not pay for music. I download it for free. I want to make that very clear. I think all music should be free unless the listener wants to pay for it. And if people want to pay for music, I respect that a lot and think the artist should be paid for it.
- Second, I think artists should be paid when their music is sampled only if the sampler is going to sell the song. Just because you alter someone's song, doesn't mean you've made it all your own. What if you made a song and released it and sold five copies. Then what if I alter a TINY part of your song, "sampled" 99.9% of your song, released it, and for some reason made ten million dollars. You wouldn't want some of that ten million?
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Fe-Fi-Four Plus 2 - I Wanna Come Back (From the World of LSD)
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akira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
#18800155 - 09/04/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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no one does that, though, Leary. literally, no one does, will, and even can. it's illegal to do so.
"if only the sampler sells the song" < this shows your misunderstanding.
a "sampler" would never pull a sample of something that would be so obviously a part of another persons songs, to use in a song that' for sale, OR otherwise.
that guy/girl isn't a "sampler"; just a thief.
"sampling" is using tidbits of sound which cannot be correlated between any other artists. only Rap "artists" sample classic rock beyond THEIR MEANS... and usually it's the sucky ones.
the good ones (the rest of them, really) sample bits all the time for loops in their tracks... but that's it, literally a drum loop, or a line from a movie and that's it. anything like what Jay-Z did was an example of some rare garbage idea for a rap song, to help either identify with classic rock (in a very boring manner) or the help sell more records to kids who like classic rock and rap at the same time. (another rarity, but maybe that was the goal?)
either way, most Hip-Hop artists and Electronica artists don't pull samples that they'd have to clear anyways, and if they do... it's usually a single line from a movie or a drum beat put to a loop. you know how many drum loops there are? you realize that most drums kinda sound similar right? i mean, note wise, you know, snare, bass drum, toms, hi-hat/crashes/ride all in a pattern. nothing much changes. hence sampling drums is hardly a chance to promote your music using other people's "work" considering when most drummmers drum, they're drummering based on they learned how to drum, based on their influences, which then dictate how their drumming is going to sound, and hence drum parts often sound very familiar to one other if you look closely enough to similarities, but where the similarities end, is usually in the case of an extra note or two added, or an extra beat, or timing. all those things can make a drum beat go from something known already, to something new and different. just with a few notes. this is hardly stealing, no on complains about it, because it's unavoidable anyways.
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Learyfan
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
#18800193 - 09/04/13 05:27 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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akira_akuma said: no one does that, though, Leary. literally, no one does, will, and even can. it's illegal to do so.
But you don't think sampling should be illegal. Jay Z used the beat from "Five To One". So let's say he used 30% of that song for his song and you don't think he should have to pay for it. All I did was take that logic to the extreme. What if he had the entire song (100%) playing in the background of his song? Should he have to pay for it then? Where do you draw the line between sampling and stealing?
Quote:
akira_akuma said: a "sampler" would never pull a sample of something that would be so obviously a part of another persons songs, to use in a song that' for sale, OR otherwise.
But the beat from "Five To One" is very recognizable. And people sample extremely recognizable beats all the time.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Fe-Fi-Four Plus 2 - I Wanna Come Back (From the World of LSD)
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akira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
#18800220 - 09/04/13 05:33 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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not the point. i'm talking about composing a song. there will ALWAYS be recognizable similarities in music, and wholly un-intentional ones. i hear things that sound like other things all the time. doesn't mean they were stolen.
that's where i draw the line. just because someone randomly made a beat with simple enough composition that it can be heard in any 4/4 drum beat, doesn't mean they should be able to copyright and deny people to right to use a simple piece of composition that would (and will) come out of any artist, anyways.
think about it... if i made a song that had simple 4 chord bar, in G, strum on the half note (because hey, i'm trying to be original here) does this mean, this simple composition that a child can innately play from heart, should be copywritten by me, and held the title as "original work by akira_akuma"?

PS:
uses the drums from When The Levee Breaks. wholly original drum beat and one of the best, doesn't mean that this beat won't randomly pop out of my drums by accident, trying to follow a bandmates improv over the song, randomly, because we kick it like that. if there is one single solitary thing different, it's not Bono's beat anymore, but lets for the sake of argument, say i use it exactly like it is... does he or Led Zeppelin get to sue me?
Edited by akira_akuma (09/04/13 05:39 PM)
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Learyfan
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
#18800239 - 09/04/13 05:37 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not talking about songs that sound similar. I'm talking about using someone's actual music in your music. What portion of their song can you use from their song in your song before you have to pay? From 1%-100%?
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Fe-Fi-Four Plus 2 - I Wanna Come Back (From the World of LSD)
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akira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
#18800261 - 09/04/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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any amount that isn't stealing.
that's the point. parts have accents, tracks go on top of tracks, pieces go on top of pieces, to make new pieces.
if someone takes a sample of a piece of music that could easily be replicated anyways, that isn't stealing, that's just creative engineering, at the most. if someone took a whole part of the Doors with Morrison singing "c'mon baby light my fire" and all the parts are in the sample, bass, keys, drums, guitar and all, then i'd say you have room for speculation here.
that's different. that's just taking The Doors actual "sound" and using it for yourself.
a PIECE of music though, is entirely different, because just because you can recognize "a piece of music" doesn't mean that it's "yours" or belonging to anyone. again, i have to ask, does the G chord belong to anyone? i hear alot of people use it and i can sample from many an artist using it if i sample a g chord from a Neil Young song, but liken it more then sound of the G from the Tom Petty song, which one do i pay? of course, the one i took it from, but now, does it matter anymore, that i pay?
or an even better question... when i sample the G chord from a song, who should come sue me first? (rhetorical, ignore this Leary. just answer me that question above. who should i ask permission for using the sample of the G chord? used as the basis for alot of riffs by alot of artists; alot of those riffs sound wholly recognizable, and similar too)
PS: i'll paraphrase someone else to help solidify my point here.
"I think there's a distinct difference between chord progressions and riffs. What makes blues "bluesy" are those chord progressions, and what makes bands like Blinkn 182 sound the way they do are chord progressions. There's nothing wrong with using a chord progression that someone else has used. Besides, with the number of notes present on a guitar, it's only a matter of time before someone stumbles upon the same chord progression used by someone else, because there are a finite number of chords and progressions.
Stealing a melody, though... That's totally different. That's not right. I haven't noticed many of those."
^ same thing applies to sampling. if you're sampling a part of a song that is replicable, it's not stealing. if you're sampling an entire portion of an "artists sound" (all pieces AT ONCE) then, i'd call it stealing, and wholly uncreative.
Edited by akira_akuma (09/04/13 05:53 PM)
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
#18800308 - 09/04/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
uses the drums from When The Levee Breaks. wholly original drum beat and one of the best, doesn't mean that this beat won't randomly pop out of my drums by accident, trying to follow a bandmates improv over the song, randomly, because we kick it like that. if there is one single solitary thing different, it's not Bono's beat anymore, but lets for the sake of argument, say i use it exactly like it is... does he or Led Zeppelin get to sue me?
Rhymin and stealin uses the drum beat to when the levee breaks mashed with the guitar riff from sweet leaf. That's like fucking a bitch's mouth and her cunt at the same time. And those old hip hop records by biz markee and de la soul wouldn't even be possible with the faggy copyright laws of today.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Learyfan
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
#18800318 - 09/04/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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You keep thinking I'm talking about copying notes and progressions. I'm talking about flat out cutting and pasting someone else's music into your music. Maybe you're not familiar with the situation or something. Here's "Five To One" by The Doors, followed by Jay Z's "The Takeover". Listen to both. Jay Z's song isn't similar. He's actually using The Doors' song.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Fe-Fi-Four Plus 2 - I Wanna Come Back (From the World of LSD)
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akira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan]
#18800326 - 09/04/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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yeah, i'm giving you immense proportion of my time to explain various reasons why your reasoning for denying Jay-Z to use samples is faulty.
there is simply an communication barrier here. (if you'd prefer, Communication Breakdown, it's always the same.)
seriously, you shouldnt be able to own piece of musical composition. only whole songs. anymore questions? if you sample someone's work, and it's not wholly recognizable as their SONG, who is stealing anything? ( and if people could OWN pieces of composition, not only would everything that sounds good already be "OWNED" but from then on, no one would be able to make original music without using melodies and patterns that are completely haphazard; all done to avoid using another persons "piece of a composition". whether you're talking about owning the creation of said "melodies" or you're talking about the sampling of them. it's the same difference.)
i suppose you're gonna make distinct a difference between my explanation here, and your question; saying that you're talking about sampling someone else's music, not using piece of composition, but i'll tell you that it's the same thing.
if i used a sample from a song, and DIDN'T tell the artist, i used it, that would be illegal. now, I ASK, WHY? how in the hell can me sampling a G chord from someone's song (which is in MANY songs BTW) be illegal? if no one can tell the difference, why should i make anyone aware, if i don't want to? and why should it matter? why SHOULD it be illegal, when i'm not stealing anyone's material? Example:
Edited by akira_akuma (09/04/13 06:23 PM)
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: Learyfan] 1
#18800339 - 09/04/13 06:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah I like that jay z song. He samples on old doors classic. So what? Do you think that song shouldn't be allowed to exist unless John Densmore is ok with it?
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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akira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#18800374 - 09/04/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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guys, i just copyrighted the song i made, with that 4/4 Jazz Ride i used. no more Jazz for you!1 i'll sue if you use ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding.
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
#18800398 - 09/04/13 06:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: guys, i just copyrighted the song i made, with that 4/4 Jazz Ride i used. no more Jazz for you!1 i'll sue if you use ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding.

Quote:
akira_akuma said: guys, i just copyrighted the song i made, with that 4/4 Jazz Ride i used. no more Jazz for you!1 i'll sue if you use ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding.

Quote:
akira_akuma said: guys, i just copyrighted the song i made, with that 4/4 Jazz Ride i used. no more Jazz for you!1 i'll sue if you use ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding.

I'm sampling your post and you can't do anything about it!
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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akira_akuma
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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#18800405 - 09/04/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!



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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#18800406 - 09/04/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: if you sample someone's work, and it's not wholly recognizable as their SONG, who is stealing anything?
But the Doors' sample is recognizable! It's very recognizable! Can we agree on that? Okay, so it's recognizable. We both agree. So why shouldn't Jay Z have to pay The Doors for using their music.
And please, I understand what you're saying about similar musical progressions, etc. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Did you listen to those two songs that I posted? Jay Z did not make a beat that sounded like The Doors. It was The Doors! That's the whole point of this thread!
Quote:
TheFakeSunRa said: Yeah I like that jay z song. He samples on old doors classic. So what? Do you think that song shouldn't be allowed to exist unless John Densmore is ok with it?
No, only if Jay Z is going to sell it. Which he did. If he didn't sell it, then do whatever you want.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Fe-Fi-Four Plus 2 - I Wanna Come Back (From the World of LSD)
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!



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Re: How Jay Z tricked John Densmore into allowing him to use 'Five To One' [Re: akira_akuma]
#18800430 - 09/04/13 06:27 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: guys, i just copyrighted the song i made, with that 4/4 Jazz Ride i used. no more Jazz for you!1 i'll sue if you use ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding.

You don't know what sampling is, do you? It all makes sense now. No offense, but I'm just figuring out why we aren't communicating at all. You have no idea what sampling is.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Fe-Fi-Four Plus 2 - I Wanna Come Back (From the World of LSD)
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