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TheFourthEyE
explorer



Registered: 07/11/12
Posts: 610
Loc: South africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Cactus ID please
#18800035 - 09/04/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry i can get them uploaded straight
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dankie vir die tyd geneem het om dit te vertaal
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
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Trichocereus Peruvianus/Cuzcoensis
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intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 2,627
Loc: EU
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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It seems some sort of san pedro/peruvian torch/cuzco/bridgesii hybrid cactus you have there, just because I don't want to talk so much bullshit and say 100% sure what you have there. I have seen one american vendor selling similar very spiny cactus as peruvian torch and seen same vendor peruvian torches different to each others.. Also difference inside the same species should be think of cause only cuttings are identical with each others, no matter how far inbreeding is happened, there is still every seed grown cactus their own unique appearances.
Definition of peruvian torch is very hard and everyone seems to have their own opinion about them.
..for me it looks hybridized spiny trichocereus, possible active one.
I don't want to say more further ID cause then I start talking things I have no idea..
ID of your trichocereus is impossible cause they are very popular and demanded and therefor most likely hybridized someway or another and only guy who has planted the seed can know the parents of this cactus if pollinating of flower has happened under control of human action.
Fine and nice cactus it is!
Very spiny trichocereus there is indeed at second picture but cause of large demand and popularity of trichocereus species hybridized cactus is more likely than pure species. It can be F1 or F2 or something..
To get to know are your cactus plants hybridized, you need to find out the seed patch where these cacti plants are from.. If they are very different from each others from diameter, skin color, spines etc, they are more likely F1 hybrid plants.
Best ID you can get from person or nursery by asking the origin of cactus or seed patch.
Identifying today actually most popular columnar cactus in the world is just guessing from photos.
I have still seen today same seed patch plants sold as trichocereus peruviana and they are quite stabile hybrid and they have more same identical look than differences.. Some seed patches of trichocereus gives very various form and appearance of cacti.. Inbreeding with same parents and then again using the F1 breed and then F2 and so on makes seedling appearance more similar to each others, technically just pollinating the plant with it's own sister and so own so genetic spectrum goes more narrow.. Tricho is still quite fast growing cactus and seeds are produced lots of in nurseries or by cactus enthusiasts..
Edited by intelligentlife (09/04/13 05:25 PM)
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tizoc4u
Stranger



Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 91
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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Not to jump the gun but its most likely a peruvianus. I dont think its a cuzco. But who knows, theres been talk about people id ing cuzco that has been really active. Nice cactus
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intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 2,627
Loc: EU
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: Cactus ID please [Re: tizoc4u]
#18804423 - 09/05/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have been sense some "fear of ineffective" with t. cuzcoensis in this forum.. Some people seems to disappoint if their plant are ID as cuzcoensis etc.. Still I have found material around internet done by chemical analysis and there seems to be some proof that trichocereus cuzcoensis has similar levels(or higher levels) of mescaline than few another spiny trichocereus there are around like peruvian torch plants.
Quote:
tizoc4u said: Not to jump the gun but its most likely a peruvianus. I dont think its a cuzco. But who knows, theres been talk about people id ing cuzco that has been really active. Nice cactus
Actually many internet websites(smartshops) sell "trichocereus cuzcoensis" dried cactus tissue as a psychedelic product for consuption..
About living plants.. The talk around these "real trichos" and their definition like peruvian torch are so variable when grown from seed than it's almost impossible to know 100% sure the species of cactus without doing proper chemical and DNA analysis..
Actually the proof of trichocereus peruviana cactus and DNA of t. peruviana needs sample from plant tissue what has been collected at early 20th century when t. peruviana has been listed to cactus species and samples has been taken from living plant...
Then it should be compared to modern day peruvian torches/t. peruviana to see are they close relatives to cactus first listed as a one species of trichocereus.
Also same thing with cuzcoensis should be done to be sure...
..about old artifacts and carvings on the stone left by ancient native people shows that they has been used spineless or very variable spiny trichocereus plants as sacred plant so therefor when forgetting modern western science and today obsession to know exact species if cacti we can call every mescaline containing plants to san pedro or achuma.
Acutually these things can put to deeper dimension and think from point of view that someone can have mescaline containing trichocereus cactus but if it that exact specimen has never been used as sacrament it cannot be considered as san pedro or achuma and it makes thing confusing..
And so on, now when we connect early 20th century listed data about species, old knowledge and use of trichocereus and modern science define species makes actually just compromise to whole trichocereus genus of cactus.
By simple way this can be just think the point of view that if there is lots of seed grown specimens exists and it has been never ingested by human, it's just a trichocereus cactus similar to san pedro but it's not san pedro cause it has not been used as sacrament.. Therefor cactus specimens used for consumption are san pedro and actually the species of the cactus doesn't matter at all at that way of thinking.
However the compromise has to be made someway or another cause in the past there has not been used to talk about these plants as different species so much.
If I would have money, connections and lots of resources, I would collect DNA samples from "original" t. pachanoi, t. bridgesii, t. peruviana, t. cuzcoensis, t. macrogonus etc ..and then I would took randomly lots of samples from collectors, growers and nurseries to find out where is the DNA what define the species or are there totally new subspecies made cause of long time hybridization cause people has been breed trichocereus plants by accident or purposely making hybrids.
From early point of view in the beginning of all kind of trichocereus cacti are someway "cousins" to each other and formed actually long time a hybrids what has been isolated from anothers and has been start to develop totally to species of subspecies on their own.
Istead if I would have to define the species of trichocereus, I would actually claim all to same species and different formations of spines and color of skin I would say they are subspecies of one same cactus family.
..That is my point of view at the moment cause ID of plants based mostly there what they look.. Still when I have look many columnar cacti species, only trichocereus has been argued lots of even there are cereus, pilocereus and few others what are very same looking but there can be small difference inside same species.. Actually quite proper stability along the other columnar cactus plants can be explained easily by lack of demand and enthusiasm from people towards these cactus plants so lots of seedlings will not survive their first year in the wild and these what has been are used as mother plants..
Trichocereus is the cactus grown by humans long before cacti plants has even been used as decoration plants and therefor humans has been helped lots of specimens to world by taking care of seedlings and therefor trichocereus genetic spectrum is very wide.
Human can has effect the trichocereus thousands of years before any other species by collecting seeds and grow them and bring new variants to world what has otherwise possible just died in the wild without any human help... Every seed grown same species cactus have still their own pollen purpose to transfer genetics so wide spectrum of trichocereus species can be result of long time trichocereus cultivation by humans.
I would bet that if any other cactus plants has been gone trough over thousands of years than trichocereus have and humans have help new specimens to world there could be lots of different ornamental cactus plants like regular cereus, pilocereus and so on..
Cause lack of human interest to another cactus species doesn't have that advantage to get as much new cactus to world than what symbiosis with humans and trichocereus has been happened.
Actually only ~100-150 years ago propagation of any kind of species and seedlings what has usually just die on their own in the wild. Astrophytum and also lophophora is good example of this kind of new species born when thinking humans as helping living organisms to cacti and their symbiosis can produce hybrids and therefor hybrids can be start to inbreed and hundred years more of inbreeding and possible new hybridization results finally totally new species or subspecies of cactus what would never exists without humans and their enthusiasm to cactus plants..
Human and plant can produce symbiosis what actually results totally new species or subspecies of cactus but problem is human short living time and trichocereus is probably the oldest cactus plants cultivated by humans on their by taking cuttings or seeds from sacred cactus long time ago.. Time before cactus collections just doesn't have been existed.
I can imagine ancient humans learning or knowing that picking important sacred cactus seeds and sow them result new seeds there where human wants them to be and chance of getting lots of specimens in the world increased cause seedlings are taken care of humans.. Also cuttings has role in there and humans can have plant many different looking mescaline containing trichocereus to one growing area and they have cross-breed automatically and then seedlings of the has been grow and new (otherwise non-exists) trichocereus has been helped to mature trough fragile stage when they were seedlings.
Sorrym my writing goes little bit offtopic from original post of ID the cactus in picture, but understanding the "symbiosis" with human and trichocereus cactus been there thousand of years can be explain why just trichocereus is very variable species cause it has been considered as sacred cactus and people can has take different region or valley grown tricho cuttings to one place than there has been start the first hybridizations and later on possible help for seedlings to grow adult and get lots of new different looking trichocereus..
If long time ago humans has pick another cactus plant and bring different region cuttings to same area and then possible help lots of new seedlings to grow mature cactus, there could be very different native columnars from south america hard to identify by 100% accuracy..
However, trichocereus seems to be very respected and sacred trade product so possibility that shamans has trade/collect different psychoactive trichos from different valleys at andes has caused the time consuming process of natures work, also these human grown cuttings in new area and seeds from these plants can have spread by accident back in the hands of mother nature and in good luck some new seedling has develop to adult cactus plant somewhere in the highlands of andes.
I see that "symbiosis" with human and psychoactive trichocereus has caused logs to move long distances and seedlings chance to grow to adult plant has been increased cause of human help.
Actually ancient human respect against columnar psychoactive trichocereus has caused trichocereus species most variable species along columnar cacti cause thousands of years(lots of human generations) practiced collecting, trade, cultivating and important learning to increase seedligns chance to survive their first fragile years to tough adult cactus plants and spread the pollen forwards again and again and people help new plants to world from seed or cuttings.. And if cuttings has come as trade product from long distance, chance to spread new genetic vua pollen to new area cactus possible new forms, hidden genetics and hybrids has come.
Most likely in my mind the human learn to sow seeds from sacred plant and care them instead of nature would kill the seedlings.. Results of that kind behavior of ancient human and intent to collect seeds or cuttings has caused trichocereus species most variable columnar cactus today..
Cause our ancestors has not seen any need to help any other than sacred san pedro cactus thrive, another not so important cacti has been in the hands of mother nature and most of the seeds never grow to adult cactus.
Ancient human respect against this species of cactus reflects today very wide spectrum of various appearance and color trichocereus. More chance of seed to grow mature plant and spread genetics forwards and with human help hybridization has been started long time before any other native cacti. Without acient human help trichocereus would not be so variable than today. Today success rate of germinating and survive of seedling to adult is so high that stabilize the species is not going to happen. Trichocereus is relatively fast growing cactus anyway and it can be seen that there is no anymore the rule of evolution with trichocereus cause human fix the work of nature and has been fix since the early times when this sacred cactus has started to get value as sacrament.
..Same thing happens to every plant human produce, cannabis, decoration plants and so on.. When natural selection is moved to human selection, it ain't anymore so much of a surviving battle in the nature what form of plant survive and what not.
This kind of massive appearance and genetic spectrum with san pedro cactus is just simply in my mind effect of human selection instead of natures own selection.. ..when human start to choose own evolution via symbiosis of another species happens unusual and most likely very wide spectrum genetics of flora and fauna.. Evolution is just pure survival battle, if survival battle are started to help, after long period of time natural selection changes..
There is still another side of the coin(like always) and if human stop of breeding or in-breeding of flora and fauna, natures of survival battle, evolution comes to place and only toughest survive and appearances and forms to in-breeding process at some point, but in that big cycle, human life tiem is just a blink of an eye.
Also one good example story of human mix up the nature is from russia. There were fox farm to grow fur and make clothing to prevent cold climate.. After few generation on captive grown foxes their fur has started to get more color so that project went down cause expensive fur wasn't anymore one color and foxes started to get two/three-colored fur cause of captivity so taming wild foxes cause few generations later changes in their appearance too cause of human selections.
Sorry this goes very deep thinking but understanding the deep purpose of species no matter is it cacti or cannabis, human grown plants are different from each others cause they are not selected by priority of survival cause human is their host and choose what genetics goes on.
Obviously in south america at andes, humans demand has been mescaline in the cactus so appearance has not been the point and therefor any appearance of psychedelic trichocereus has been the one what has given or take pollen or they are just simply collected cuttings different appearance as long as there is mescaline it's okay and cause of blooming and same spot have many forms, hybrid seeds has been the seeds of sacred plant.
Exeption later only tens of years back is almost mescaline free trichocereus I have heard in the USA cacti market and it's probably the ornamental way then and there is too human choose what is proper to keep to purpose of cultivate ornaentsl cacti. The "PC Pachanoi" and propagating the san pedro is different cause there are not the actual purpose of growing the san pedro is not the potency, still south american cactus plants, no matter are they spiny or not they feels there is mescaline in the cactus anyway but amount of it can vary from very potent to weak but still they can be used as the purpose our ancestors are started to propagate this species..
Sorry if text is out of content from somewhere and too long but question around trichocereus and full ID for me in the three point of view is very tricky cause it seems species name are now days some sort of "brands" what makes people buy them in the hope of mescaline trip. People who doesn't actually even use psychedelics just label these trichos what they look..
Bridgesii can be labeled as Pachanoi... long spined trichocereus labeled as peruvian torch or t. peruviana etc.. Even I know T. Peruviana is found from peru at early 20's, trying to figure out what is the real one then in here europe is hard. Nursery I know where are sold seedling san pedro or peruvian torch, the staff are said me that they are just seed grown hybrids sorted as t. pachanoi or t. peruviana depends what their appearance and growth tip spine color are. Bridgesii from that nursery are seedlings varying lots of their appearance and they are possible F1 or F2 in-breed ones. Still seedlings of t. peruviana and t. pachanoi are quite identical to eachothers, even there are some sort of own appearance every one but still they look like very stable hybrids. Only thing I know for sure that nursery guy has openly said to me that they are now days "badly hybridized and no can do" ...so for me the labeling is more matter of appearance of cacti instead of what it really is. T. Bridgesii are still some sort of exception cause they are indeed looks like bridgesii what it has been described but these bridgesii I have seen are not actually from nursery. Once I buy'd "t. peruviana" and after "t. bridgesii" ..they were identical plants both..
But if talking about "peruvian torch" ...I have understand it's just decoration plant trichocereus looking like a torch cause of coloration of spines and that's it, so technically anything looking like torch like plant in this thread can be said as peruvian torch if want. Also similar plants are just said "san pedro" and it seems to be common name to trichocereus plants, spineless or not... looking like a p. torch or not... looking like a t. bridgesii or not.. Label are usually just San pedro..
Okay sorry now, enough bullshit
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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This is a pic of my suspected cuzco purchased as a Peruvian; sworn by the vendor to have been identified by knowledgeable cactus identifier.
the new growth looks very similar to mine except mine has about twice the spine length at least, but the rest is very similar. I'll put some pics up soon. Not sure what your climate is like there but mine is consistently 100+ throughout the summer.
  
your spines do look a bit darker though
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (09/06/13 02:50 PM)
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tizoc4u
Stranger



Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 91
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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Re: Cactus ID please [Re: Sse]
#18807771 - 09/06/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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The longer spined one looks cuzco
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tizoc4u
Stranger



Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 91
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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Re: Cactus ID please [Re: Sse]
#18807778 - 09/06/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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