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Offlinenepter627
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should colonizing jars have
    #18799954 - 09/04/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

their lids screwed on tightly or loosened?


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OfflineAce1928
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: nepter627]
    #18799976 - 09/04/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Loosely. You want to allow the CO2 produced inside the jar to escape a little. But do not have it so loose that there are actual gaps to the air. Just enough so that pressure doesn't build up to an extreme.

Best option would be to have a 1 or more breather holes in the jar that are filled with a synthetic filter material like polyfill etc.


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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18799993 - 09/04/13 04:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Snug the lids down, but you don't need to wrench them. There is a reason you make GE holes and use a filter.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/04/13 04:45 PM)


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18799999 - 09/04/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ace1928 said:
Loosely.



This is wrong to say no matter what sentence follows.  ALL lids should have a gas exchange port of some form or another.  Put your lid on tight (hand tight) to keep out contamination.


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OfflineAce1928
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18800006 - 09/04/13 04:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Whippy said:
Quote:

Ace1928 said:
Loosely.



This is wrong to say no matter what sentence follows.  ALL lids should have a gas exchange port of some form or another.  Put your lid on tight (hand tight) to keep out contamination.




If the jars already have stuff in them then loosely is your only option.
You cannot go drilling holes in after you have inoculated.


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Offlinenepter627
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18800010 - 09/04/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

so if i have one hole about the size of a skrewdriver thats fine?

im using tyvek as a filter till i can buy a sfd


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: nepter627]
    #18800017 - 09/04/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

yes. that's fine


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Offlinenepter627
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18800020 - 09/04/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

thanks.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18800038 - 09/04/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ace1928 said:
If the jars already have stuff in them then loosely is your only option.
You cannot go drilling holes in after you have inoculated.




When would you have stuff in them but no GE hole drilled?

and

When would you inoculate before GE hole is drilled?


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18800041 - 09/04/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ace1928 said:

If the jars already have stuff in them then loosely is your only option.
You cannot go drilling holes in after you have inoculated.




GE PORTS should be in the lid before you even jar anything up.  Without a gas exchange port, you are setting yourself up for failure.  If you have created a grain tek that involves no holes in the lid and a loosely fitting lid, please feel free to present it.  There is no way that a "loosely" fit lid will offer proper gas exchange AND keep out contamination.


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OfflineAce1928
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18800057 - 09/04/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Some people new to the hobby do that. As i did myself at the time I started

And in saying that no jars with loose lids ever got a contam but it definitely wasn't ideal.
Effectively if you have a small gap the pressure of the gas build up inside the jar is higher than external pressure so air wont get sucked in. Providing the thread of the jar doesn't get wet that means there is no where for contams to come in.

GE hole > loose lide any day of the week though


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OfflineAce1928
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18800066 - 09/04/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Whippy said:
Quote:

Ace1928 said:

If the jars already have stuff in them then loosely is your only option.
You cannot go drilling holes in after you have inoculated.




GE PORTS should be in the lid before you even jar anything up.  Without a gas exchange port, you are setting yourself up for failure.  If you have created a grain tek that involves no holes in the lid and a loosely fitting lid, please feel free to present it.  There is no way that a "loosely" fit lid will offer proper gas exchange AND keep out contamination.




Challenge Accepted :P

I have some sterilized jars with no holes in the lids waiting to go at the moment. Just waiting for my agar plate to finish colonizing which should only be a few days off.
Then ill take photos of colonization progress

I can assure you it won't be ideal growth speed but it has worked before.


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18800119 - 09/04/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ace1928 said:
Some people new to the hobby do that. As i did myself at the time I started

And in saying that no jars with loose lids ever got a contam but it definitely wasn't ideal.
Effectively if you have a small gap the pressure of the gas build up inside the jar is higher than external pressure so air wont get sucked in. Providing the thread of the jar doesn't get wet that means there is no where for contams to come in.

GE hole > loose lide any day of the week though



You are making less and less sense to me.

There are plenty of "people new to the hobby" that have been using gas exchange ports for years and years.  I eagerly anticipate a photo of your excellent jar tek for people not new to the hobby, and a scientific explanation of how a loose jar will exhale pressure, but never brings pressure in.  Also, what about IF the jar is "exhaling", what is to stop humidity from accumulating near the edges of the lid.  Surely water drops near the lid create a vector of contamination.  There is a very good reason why we use "GAS EXCHANGE PORTS".  There is an exchange, and not the "exhale only" it seems you are stating jars do.

I am really just hoping that I misunderstood you, because it still feels like you are advocating a no-hole grain jar lid screwed on loose for gas exchange.


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Offlinejonnymushroom
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: nepter627]
    #18800120 - 09/04/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

As long as the co2 can get out and you can open the jars easy you will be ok just snug is fine.


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18800146 - 09/04/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ace1928 said:

I can assure you it won't be ideal growth speed but it has worked before.



Ill bite.

Assuming that it colonizes, you are stating that it "won't be ideal growth speed" as a comparison to what?


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OfflineAce1928
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: jonnymushroom]
    #18800152 - 09/04/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not advocating a no hole grain jar lid. IT works in a situation where you forgot to put gas exchange or something.

But it is not ideal in comparison to if you have gas exchange ports. A loose lid is most definitely not optimal but in a last ditch effort to not completely screw your jar it will work.

The scientific explanation as to why it exhales pressure but does not bring it in is due to the metabolism of carbohydrates that is occurring by the mycelium. It's the same as when you brew alcohol.

Quote:

jonnymushroom said:
As long as the co2 can get out and you can open the jars easy you will be ok just snug is fine.





What that guy said ^^


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18800186 - 09/04/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ace1928 said:
I'm not advocating a no hole grain jar lid. IT works in a situation where you forgot to put gas exchange or something.




You are saying it will work, but terribly and advising others of such like this is a new-best-idea.  Less than 10 minutes to drill a case of wide mouth jar lids out and pack with polyfill WILL yield MUCH MUCH faster colonization, but you are stating that, not me.

"But it is not ideal in comparison to if you have gas exchange ports."

OP:  Take it for what its worth.  This is either a troll, or someone who obviously does not care about knowingly giving advice that is bad in this thread.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18800187 - 09/04/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

In all the threads I've read, I don't recall ever reading that someone did not make a GE hole of some sort in their lid.:shrug:

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it's so basic to this hobby, that not making one would be like forgetting to sterilize.

I think it's so basic, that I don't understand why you would even mention leaving the lid loose.


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18800208 - 09/04/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
In all the threads I've read, I don't recall ever reading that someone did not make a GE hole of some sort in their lid.:shrug:





I dunno either.  Im done here.  I scoped out some of Aces' threads.  Pretty much found that I wasted time here defending correct and simple procedures that involve thinking ahead.


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Offlinenepter627
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18800211 - 09/04/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

in franks wbs prep he states
"Sometimes when I take them out of the PC hot, the lids will be a little loose. I tighten each lid before I shake it, then I loosen it a quarter turn afterwards. Put each in an area with minimal air movement to cool overnight (I use a large plastic tote.)"


thats why i ask


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OfflineAce1928
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18800226 - 09/04/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Whippy said:
Quote:

Ace1928 said:
I'm not advocating a no hole grain jar lid. IT works in a situation where you forgot to put gas exchange or something.




You are saying it will work, but terribly and advising others of such like this is a new-best-idea.  Less than 10 minutes to drill a case of wide mouth jar lids out and pack with polyfill WILL yield MUCH MUCH faster colonization, but you are stating that, not me.

"But it is not ideal in comparison to if you have gas exchange ports."

OP:  Take it for what its worth.  This is either a troll, or someone who obviously does not care about knowingly giving advice that is bad in this thread.





I'm not trolling. This will be the last post cause I think we have gone away from the original post.

I DO NOT ADVOCATE LOOSE LIDS. To make it clear
They can work. They will work. They are not ideal.

I have made the mistake before of putting a lid onto a jar that had no GE port. I'm certain that if I have made the mistake then there has been or will be or are others out there that have done the same. In which case they will probably search the forums for something along the lines of this post.

They will see it can work and then will hopefully not do it again.

It is a last ditch emergency response if you forget it.

Yes it is basic. Yes it's pretty damn retarded to forget it. But it happens.

Basically to sum it all up

If your jars are full and you don't have gas exchange then just slightly crack the lid.
If you have a gas exchange port already and are wondering if loosening the lid is beneficial. DONT. Even one GE port is better than a loose lid.
If you are deciding whether or not you can be bothered to drill holes in the lids then DO drill holes in the lids.

All done.


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18800246 - 09/04/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ace1928 said:
I DO NOT ADVOCATE LOOSE LIDS. To make it clear




Quote:

Ace1928 said:
Loosely. You want to allow the CO2 produced inside the jar to escape a little.




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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: nepter627]
    #18800248 - 09/04/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Often they are loose after PCing, so I snug them afterwards.

I don't know why Frank loosens them after the shake. If they are still warm when he shakes them, then I can guess why. He uses plastic lids and if they are tight when hot, they are a bitch to get off once they cool.

I still use the metal lids with rings. I flip the lids upside down ala RR.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/04/13 05:47 PM)


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18800265 - 09/04/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Often they are loose after PCing, so I snug them afterwards.

I don't know why Frank loosens them after the shake. If they are still warm when he shakes them, then I can guess why. He uses plastic lids and if they are tight when hot, they are a bitch to get off once the cool.

I still use the metal lids with rings. I flip the lids upside down ala RR.



I would ask Frank directly about that, but I imagine that they become loose due to thermal expansion. They are tight when you put them in.  Plastic/metal expand more than glass.  Screwing the lid tight guarantees that anything that is a vector of contamination stays in the jar, and not around the seal of the lid.  Loosening the same amount you tightened will get you back to square one when it cools off.  I dunno if this is the exact reason or not, but it would make sense to me.  I use metal lids with ge ports, face down.  I try to make sure that there is no chance of grains getting stuck under my lid.  I've tried plastic lids, and I don't care for them.  Just an opinion.  I like that the metal lids make a seal and need to be pried off.  This is an assurance to me that the only gas exchange happens through a filter media (SFD/PolyFill etc)


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Offlinenepter627
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18800284 - 09/04/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

so would i be ficked cuz i loosened them for a bit since someone said to earlier??


do you think i contaminated my jars???


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: Ace1928]
    #18800293 - 09/04/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ace1928 said:

The scientific explanation as to why it exhales pressure but does not bring it in is due to the metabolism of carbohydrates that is occurring by the mycelium. It's the same as when you brew alcohol.





:callingbullshit:

If something "exhales pressure" without drawing something in,
the scientific explanation would suggest it's creating a vacuum.


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: nepter627]
    #18800298 - 09/04/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nepter627 said:
so would i be ficked cuz i loosened them for a bit since someone said to earlier??




Probably not.  Loosening and loose are 2 different things in my mind.  One is a verb, the other an adjective.  You can loosen a tight jar lid, and it still will be tight.

Keep the lids hand tight. I can only guess that you have not forgotten to use a GE port lol......


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Offlinenepter627
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18800315 - 09/04/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

yeah but i only have one hole. some people say use multiple holes.


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: nepter627]
    #18800323 - 09/04/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nepter627 said:
yeah but i only have one hole. some people say use multiple holes.



Its more than enough for a grain jar.  My grain lids have a 1/4" hole packed with polyfill.


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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: spacechildo]
    #18800328 - 09/04/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
Quote:

Ace1928 said:

The scientific explanation as to why it exhales pressure but does not bring it in is due to the metabolism of carbohydrates that is occurring by the mycelium. It's the same as when you brew alcohol.





:callingbullshit:

If something "exhales pressure" without drawing something in,
the scientific explanation would suggest it's creating a vacuum.





Have you ever done chemistry?

This is the breakdown of glucose into alcohol and carbon dioxide. Catalysed by yeast.

C6H12O6 (aq) → 2C2H5OH(aq) + 2CO2(g)

Now you will notice you have gone from a liquid (which is the sugar) to another liquid (alcohol) and a gas (carbon dioxide)
The volume that carbon dioxide takes up per mol is significantly higher than the volume that glucose takes up per mol.
That alone creates greater internal pressure.

Problem solved :thumbup:


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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18800333 - 09/04/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

alright well i hope i didnt contaminate anything since i dont have anymore more ms.

never taking advice from someone who has been here less time then i have and has less post then i do.


:/

guess its my bad for listening


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Re: should colonizing jars have [Re: nepter627]
    #18800391 - 09/04/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You'll probably be okay.


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