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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799515 - 09/04/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Once again, just because you refuse to believe the evidence, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

"I've read extensively on the subject" doesn't mean shit.  Why would I believe your opinion over high ranking administration officials who are on record saying that shit was simply being made up?  Why would I believe your opinion over exhaustive Senate reports?

Quote:

Statements by the President and the Vice President indicating that Saddam Hussein was prepared to give weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups for attacks against the United States were contradicted by available intelligence information.




That is a lie.  Flat out.  The President and his administration lied.  Period.

It seems as though the only proof you would accept is hearing the words "I lied" come out of Bush or Cheney's mouth.

I'm done with you on this subject.  I'll wait for Zappa to come in and try to twist his way out of all the bullshit he's saying now.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #18799540 - 09/04/13 02:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It would have taken less time had you merely admitted you had no proof at the beginning.

Saying "I've read extensively on the subject" wasn't an attempt to prove anything, but was a response to your stupid statements telling me "You refuse to read anything I have posted, you refuse to believe the countless officials from his administration that say he lied." Have you got anything besides that stupid statement? You know... something like PROOF?

No? Didn't think so.

I don't care much for Bush, but your claims he lied are hollow and moronic.

Now, provide proof or don't, but stop embarrassing yourself.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18799554 - 09/04/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What would you accept as proof?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #18799581 - 09/04/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Papers, recordings, statements, emails, phone recordings. Anything that would hold up in a court of law.

Not people saying "Bush lied".

You and I both know you can provide no such thing or virtually every media outlet in the world would have ran with it long before now.

So rather than a laughable "Bush lied", perhaps an "I believe Bush lied" would be the way to go.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799615 - 09/04/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The administration made public statements that contradicted the intelligence reports that they had.  How is that not a lie?


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799628 - 09/04/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Explaining the Iraq War: Counterfactual Theory, Logic and Evidence
by Frank P. Harvey 

Winner, 2013 Canadian Political Science Association Prize in International Relations The almost universally accepted explanation for the Iraq war is very clear and consistent - the US decision to attack Saddam Hussein's regime on March 19, 2003 was a product of the ideological agenda, misguided priorities, intentional deceptions and grand strategies of President George W. Bush and prominent 'neoconservatives' and 'unilateralists' on his national security team. Despite the widespread appeal of this version of history, Frank P. Harvey argues that it remains an unsubstantiated assertion and an underdeveloped argument without a logical foundation. His book aims to provide a historically grounded account of the events and strategies which pushed the US-UK coalition towards war. The analysis is based on both factual and counterfactual evidence, combines causal mechanisms derived from multiple levels of analysis and ultimately confirms the role of path dependence and momentum as a much stronger explanation for the sequence of decisions that led to war.
Filled with news-making revelations that made it a New York Times bestseller, Hubris takes us behind the scenes at the White House, CIA, Pentagon, State Department, and Congress to show how George W. Bush came to invade Iraq - and how his administration struggled with the devastating fallout.

-----------
Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War
Michael Isikoff, David Corn

Hubris connects the dots between Bush's expletive-laden outbursts at Saddam Hussein, the bitter battles between the CIA and the White House, the fights within the intelligence community over Saddam's supposed weapons of mass destruction, the outing of an undercover CIA officer, and the Bush administration's misleading sales campaign for war. Written by veteran reporters Michael Isikoff and David Corn, this is an inside look at how a president took the nation to war using faulty and fraudulent intelligence. It's a dramatic page-turner and an intriguing account of conspiracy, backstabbing, bureaucratic ineptitude, journalistic malfeasance, and arrogance.

--------------
THIS ONE WAS WRITTEN BEFORE THE WAR

War on Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn't Want You To Know
by William Rivers Pitt, Scott Ritter

War on Iraq offers a balanced, non-partisan examination of the current debate in Washington and beyond. In this shocking expose on the impending offensive against Iraq, activist, author, and teacher William Rivers Pitt sits down with former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter to expose the truth behind the hawkish rhetoric of the Bush administration. Ritter--ex-Marine, intelligence specialist, expert on Iraqi military strategy, and Gulf War veteran--dismantles the myths surrounding Saddam Hussein's biological, chemical and nuclear weapons capabilities while revealing the neo-conservative forces pushing the White House toward war. During the seven years the inspections took place, Ritter and other inspectors were able to confirm that Iraq's chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programs were effectively destroyed, counter to current White House claims. Pitt and Ritter also explain the lack of any plausible link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, and highlight the absurdity of forcing democracy on a nation that has been divided for centuries. The book closes with a stark forecast for American troops if a ground war ensues and urges the White House to seek a diplomatic solution. A complete listing of contact information for U.S. senators as well as outreach and activist resources is included.

WANT MORE?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Lion]
    #18799688 - 09/04/13 03:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There most certainly is a centuries old struggle between the priest class and the political secular class..  She is right and you are a kneejerk hater


I don't know how much less relevant anything could be to your original statement that there is a centuries-old conflict in the Middle East between "secular dictators" and "Islamist dictators", or to anything that Sarah Palin has ever said.  Sarah Palin was making a comment about Syria specifically, not about the ages-old ideological struggles between clerics and philosophers/politicians in Islamic states.  How you can impute that level of historical insight into her straightforward misrepresentation of a modern conflict is beyond me.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Lion said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
She is spot on.  You are not.


So you agree with her assessment that the conflict in Syria is a centuries-old internal struggle between radical violent Islamists and a murderous dictatorial regime?[/quote}Yes

Quote:

So sez you without one shred of evidence


The Free Syrian Army has 80,000 fighters.  Do you think there are any terrorist organizations out there that have 80,000 fighters?


 

Yes


So for the record, when you are saying "Yes", you are also saying yes to the first question, indicating you believe that the present conflict in Syria is a "centuries-old internal struggle between violent radical Islamists and a murderous dictatorial regime..."  All right.




Yes, the Taliban for one.
Quote:



Now would you care to provide some statistics supporting the idea that Jabhat al-Nusra, or any radical Islamist group or combination of several groups with a substantial presence in Syria, has more than 80,000 fighters?  Even Hezbollah, one of the largest and most well-funded terrorist organizations in the Middle East, has at best 5,000-10,000 fighters at its disposal.






I don't know where you get your numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army
Quote:

General Mustafa al-Sheikh told Reuters that up to 20,000 soldiers in total had deserted the army since the beginning of the conflict, and that the FSA had taken control of large swathes of land. He said in an interview on 12 January 2012 : "If we get 25,000 to 30,000 deserters mounting guerrilla warfare in small groups of six or seven it is enough to exhaust the army in a year to a year-and-a-half, even if they are armed only with rocket-propelled grenades and light weapons", and also mentioned that the majority of army deserters had gone to be with their families, rather than join the rebellion




--------------------


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18799696 - 09/04/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, that quote is from 2012.  Why don't you find some newer stats?  Like from the article I posted?  Why do you keep ignoring me?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799765 - 09/04/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You mean this one, which has over a hundred thousand Islamic nutjobs.

The Syrian Islamic Front 25,000

The Syrian Islamic Liberation Front  35,000 to 40,000

al Nusra  5,000

Farouq battalions  14,000

Islamic Ahrar al-Sham Movement  10,000

Syria Martyrs’ Brigades  High thousands? Even 10,000

Islam Brigade  claims to have 64 sub-battalions, but it refuses to give an estimated number of fighters.

Suqour al-Sham Brigades  Several thousand, possibly climbing towards 10,000

It looks to me like the nutcases are outnumbering the not so nutcases


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799791 - 09/04/13 03:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

They had many reports. Some accurate some not.

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
The administration made public statements that contradicted the intelligence reports that they had.  How is that not a lie?




There were quite a few reports from many sources. Some back up the claims, some do not.

Can you prove (not suspect or believe) that Bush lied?

No? Didn't think so.

I don't know if he did or didn't. Neither do you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18799801 - 09/04/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You mean this one, which has over a hundred thousand Islamic nutjobs.

The Syrian Islamic Front 25,000

The Syrian Islamic Liberation Front  35,000 to 40,000

al Nusra  5,000

Farouq battalions  14,000

Islamic Ahrar al-Sham Movement  10,000

Syria Martyrs’ Brigades  High thousands? Even 10,000

Islam Brigade  claims to have 64 sub-battalions, but it refuses to give an estimated number of fighters.

Suqour al-Sham Brigades  Several thousand, possibly climbing towards 10,000

It looks to me like the nutcases are outnumbering the not so nutcases




Islamic != al-Qaeda/al-Nursa.  You said "al-Nursa and pals," now here you are changing your position.

LDS, I'm done with you.  You're talking in circles here.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799814 - 09/04/13 03:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
LDS, I'm done with you.  You're talking in circles here.




You could just admit there is no proof. Why is it I suspect you won't?

There are no circles. Maintaining the same stance is not "talking in circles".

You walking away without backing up your claims is rather pathetic.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18799825 - 09/04/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

My "claims" have plenty of evidence to support them.  Your claims rely on faith in GWB and his henchmen, who were calling for a regime change in Iraq for a decade plus.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799834 - 09/04/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So provide the proof.

Were you able to, I think you'd have done so.

Besides, I've made no claims other than the one where I point out you can't back your shit talk up.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799887 - 09/04/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You mean this one, which has over a hundred thousand Islamic nutjobs.

The Syrian Islamic Front 25,000

The Syrian Islamic Liberation Front  35,000 to 40,000

al Nusra  5,000

Farouq battalions  14,000

Islamic Ahrar al-Sham Movement  10,000

Syria Martyrs’ Brigades  High thousands? Even 10,000

Islam Brigade  claims to have 64 sub-battalions, but it refuses to give an estimated number of fighters.

Suqour al-Sham Brigades  Several thousand, possibly climbing towards 10,000

It looks to me like the nutcases are outnumbering the not so nutcases




Islamic != al-Qaeda/al-Nursa.  You said "al-Nursa and pals," now here you are changing your position.

LDS, I'm done with you.  You're talking in circles here.




Yeah.  And "pals".  By "pals" I mean other Islamic nutjobs, which seem to outnumber the non-nutjobs according to your link.  Who did you think I meant?  People who go to high school reunions with them?


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799888 - 09/04/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
My "claims" have plenty of evidence to support them.  Your claims rely on faith in GWB and his henchmen, who were calling for a regime change in Iraq for a decade plus.



So Bill Clinton is a Bush henchman?


--------------------


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18799897 - 09/04/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You've got nothing except for saying "you're wrong."  It's pathetic.  I have Senate reports, statements from high ranking administration officials, international intelligence.  You have nothing except denial.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799912 - 09/04/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What I have to say is not "you're wrong". It's "you can't back up your claim".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799937 - 09/04/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You have nothing.  Prove the Senate reports wrong.  Prove the administration officials wrong.  Prove that the dodgy dossier is wrong. I've got evidence.  You have nothing besides "believe me," "believe GWB," "believe Cheney." 

You can't.  You're wrong.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Sarah Palin, foreign policy genius [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18799970 - 09/04/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

As I said, my only claim is you can't prove Bush lied.

I'll ask again... got proof? Let's see your smoking gun.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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