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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: GoldenEye]
    #18793402 - 09/03/13 08:01 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

GoldenEye said:
Do you believe there is such a thing as an absolute truth?





I have no idea.




I'm leaning towards Icelander's approach at the moment.

I have no way of testing wether a truth is absolute or not, so perhaps it's best to be aware of that and just select the beliefs that work for you without worrying wether they are in fact an absolute truth or not.

Maybe the word truth is just fucked up and should have never been invented.

I will just stick with beliefs. Acknowledging that they are ever changing, that they are no better than other beliefs. And sticking with them as long as they work for me.




Absolute truth is worked subjectively and internally through experience, you can't say an absolute truth is necessarily true for everyone, only for you.

Like I don't know absolutely that you exist, but it seems likely considering there is existence and you seem to be thinking about it.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: teknix]
    #18793427 - 09/03/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Existence must be absolutely true if there is a preponderance of anything at all.




This statement doesn't make sense.  Nouns can't be true or false; only statements/propositions can.  It's meaningless to say "cats are false", but it is meaningful to say "'All cats are black' is false."

So, what proposition or statement do you mean by the word existence?




It says that if there is preponderance using thoughts then existence is true, not hard bro.




Again, nouns like existence can't be true or false--your statement is meaningless as written.  I suspect you mean something along the lines of "'Things exist' is true", which is a proper proposition, but you still need to clarify.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: teknix]
    #18793841 - 09/03/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Logical proof for existence;

If thoughts then existence
no existence
-----------------------------
Therefore no thoughts


If thoughts then existence
Thoughts
--------------------------
Therefore existence




What does this even mean?


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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Invisibletribesman
Never satisfied
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Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: GoldenEye]
    #18793842 - 09/03/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

My inference is that there may be absolute states,
along with states of progress and regress towards them.
These could possibly be repeating in a cyclic fashion, and
possibly with underlying lineality. My own absolute truth
However; is that I cannot be certain.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794267 - 09/03/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Existence must be absolutely true if there is a preponderance of anything at all.




This statement doesn't make sense.  Nouns can't be true or false; only statements/propositions can.  It's meaningless to say "cats are false", but it is meaningful to say "'All cats are black' is false."

So, what proposition or statement do you mean by the word existence?




It says that if there is preponderance using thoughts then existence is true, not hard bro.




Again, nouns like existence can't be true or false--your statement is meaningless as written.  I suspect you mean something along the lines of "'Things exist' is true", which is a proper proposition, but you still need to clarify.




Where's your evidence?

It's been written in logical format, with a premise containing the antecedent and consequent followed by a conclusion, which is a valid modus ponens and modus tollens, now if it isn't sound point out how or why.


Edited by teknix (09/03/13 01:10 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18794281 - 09/03/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Logical proof for existence;

If thoughts then existence
no existence
-----------------------------
Therefore no thoughts


If thoughts then existence
Thoughts
--------------------------
Therefore existence




What does this even mean?




It means:

If P then Q
not Q
Therefore not P

If P then Q
P
Therefore Q

It is a modus tollens and modus ponens, (logic)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: teknix] * 4
    #18794288 - 09/03/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Evidence? :lol:  "Existence is true" is a proposition, sure, but it's an ill-formed proposition because it contains a category mistake: you're ascribing the property of truth/falsity to a noun, like I said.  A well-formed proposition would be of the form "'Things exist' is true", or "'Existence is a property' is true," because each of the things within the single quotes is a proper proposition, and as such actually has the property of truth/falsity.

It may help you to properly elaborate what you're trying to say if you express what you mean by "existence is true" in other words.  What, exactly, are you trying to say is true?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794290 - 09/03/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Existence must be absolutely true if there is a preponderance of anything at all.




This statement doesn't make sense.  Nouns can't be true or false; only statements/propositions can.  It's meaningless to say "cats are false", but it is meaningful to say "'All cats are black' is false."

So, what proposition or statement do you mean by the word existence?




It says that if there is preponderance using thoughts then existence is true, not hard bro.




Again, nouns like existence can't be true or false--your statement is meaningless as written.  I suspect you mean something along the lines of "'Things exist' is true", which is a proper proposition, but you still need to clarify.




You have no reason to ban any noun.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: teknix]
    #18794299 - 09/03/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
You have no reason to ban any noun.




:dudewtf: are you talking about?  No idea what you mean by ban, but nouns do not possess the property of truth/falsehood; only propositions do.  :lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: teknix]
    #18794307 - 09/03/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

existence exists is probably the proposition :smile:


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: teknix]
    #18794330 - 09/03/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Logical proof for existence;

If thoughts then existence
no existence
-----------------------------
Therefore no thoughts


If thoughts then existence
Thoughts
--------------------------
Therefore existence




What does this even mean?




It means:

If P then Q
not Q
Therefore not P

If P then Q
P
Therefore Q

It is a modus tollens and modus ponens, (logic)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens




Thanks for explaining.

Not that I get it, it's too advanced for me.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


Edited by liquidlounge (09/03/13 01:22 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794379 - 09/03/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
You have no reason to ban any noun.




:dudewtf: are you talking about?  No idea what you mean by ban, but nouns do not possess the property of truth/falsehood; only propositions do.  :lol:




lol, that is the premise bro . . .


If thoughts then existence


It could just as well be;

If there are thoughts then there is existence.

I cut out the erroneous words that cause confusion such as are and is which implicates existence. Which I can't implicate existence in the premise before it is found logically.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: GoldenEye]
    #18794390 - 09/03/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
existence exists is probably the proposition :smile:




Rofl, you wish :P


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: GoldenEye]
    #18794391 - 09/03/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If there are thoughts then there is existence.




Now this is a well-formed statement!  Eliminating those "erroneous" words unfortunately rendered your statement meaningless.

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
existence exists is probably the proposition :smile:




Yah, that's what I figured.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleteknix
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Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794412 - 09/03/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

No, it make a sound argument without unnecessary words.

If that was the premise then it wouldn't be sound, it doesn't have to be grammatically correct to show the validity of the argument, I mean we are working with 2 variables, thoughts and existence, thought imply existence, or a place for thoughts to be.

You only need a couple variables to make an if then else statement, much like programming, no meaning is lost by omitting are and is, unless you can't read between the lines.

(Which could have been the case, however i explained it to you so now you shouldn't have much of a problem)



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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794429 - 09/03/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
If there are thoughts then there is existence.




Now this is a well-formed statement!  Eliminating those "erroneous" words unfortunately rendered your statement meaningless.

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
existence exists is probably the proposition :smile:




Yah, that's what I figured.




Circular logic . . .

:weirdeyes:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: teknix]
    #18794504 - 09/03/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
No, it make a sound argument without unnecessary words.

If that was the premise then it wouldn't be sound, it doesn't have to be grammatically correct to show the validity of the argument, I mean we are working with 2 variables, thoughts and existence, thought imply existence, or a place for thoughts to be.

You only need a couple variables to make an if then else statement, much like programming, no meaning is lost by omitting are and is, unless you can't read between the lines.

(Which could have been the case, however i explained it to you so now you shouldn't have much of a problem)






Sorry, but your original statement isn't sound because you omitted the verb--for the third time it's not a valid proposition otherwise.  :lol:  Just because you know what you were trying to say doesn't mean that you've succeeded in communicating it without ambiguity.  :shrug:

At any rate, "a place for thoughts to be" is a weird way to use the word existence.  Thoughts imply the property/capability of existence would be a better way to phrase it, or at least a more valid way to do so.  The problem is that there's still an implicit verb in your premise: since a noun is not a valid proposition, for your statement to be meaningful there must be a hidden verb attached to the noun 'thought'; in this case it's "thought exists."  So in the end, all you're saying is:

The fact that thought exists implies the existence of the property existence.

...which is ultimately just a tautology, as you assume the concept of existence in your premise while trying to prove it.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleteknix
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Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794521 - 09/03/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

nope, the verb implicates what we are talking about, it has to be omitted to be sound ^.^

It holds no relevance except in grammar. We're doing logic.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: teknix]
    #18794526 - 09/03/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

^see my edit.  You're assuming the existence of what you're trying to prove through implicit use of the concept of existence.  No amount of omitting words (disregarding that the omission technically invalidates your statement if we're doing formal logic) is gonna change the tautological nature of your proposition.  :smirk:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Absolute truth, does it exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794536 - 09/03/13 02:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, I already defeated that argument with the structure of the premise, grammar means shit here.

ONLY Thoughts implicate existence in the premise, as intended.

You're not gonna get a verb to argue verse, sry bro, better luck next time.

:bearbreakdance:


Edited by teknix (09/03/13 02:17 PM)


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