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OfflineFightOrFlight
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Atheist Buddhist?
    #18793360 - 09/03/13 07:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Growing up around Christians and having scripture taught in every school I went to, just like most places, I've never had a real belief in god. I've considered myself atheist, although respective of people's beliefs. But over the last year or so I've been taking on the concepts of Buddha and Buddhism for him being 'The awakened one'. But to follow the teachings of Buddha would that be considered as not being atheist?
My understanding is that atheists don't believe in gods or dieties.

For me Buddha would be an exception, because of the style and ways of the things he has taught as a real person.

But then Jesus was said to be a real person

Although the fabric of time and stories has twisted the tails, so what are your thoughts and opinions?


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OfflineOld Pokey
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: FightOrFlight]
    #18793380 - 09/03/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The buddha is a toilet stick.


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It's all mythology...


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: FightOrFlight]
    #18793387 - 09/03/13 07:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FightOrFlight said:
Growing up around Christians and having scripture taught in every school I went to, just like most places, I've never had a real belief in god. I've considered myself atheist, although respective of people's beliefs. But over the last year or so I've been taking on the concepts of Buddha and Buddhism for him being 'The awakened one'. But to follow the teachings of Buddha would that be considered as not being atheist?
My understanding is that atheists don't believe in gods or dieties.

For me Buddha would be an exception, because of the style and ways of the things he has taught as a real person.

But then Jesus was said to be a real person

Although the fabric of time and stories has twisted the tails, so what are your thoughts and opinions?




Atheist have a habit of claiming agnostics as atheist, but Buddhism is intended to be the middle way, so personally I think agnosticism is more fitting of a description.

I think you can still benefit from the teachings regardless of your beliefs, because Buddhism seems more concerned about the truth than beliefs.


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OfflineOld Pokey
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: teknix]
    #18793409 - 09/03/13 08:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:

Atheist have a habit of claiming agnostics as atheist, but Buddhism is intended to be the middle way, so personally I think agnosticism is more fitting of a description.

I think you can still benefit from the teachings regardless of your beliefs, because Buddhism seems more concerned about the truth than beliefs.




:whathesaid:


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It's all mythology...


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Old Pokey]
    #18793450 - 09/03/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Buddha said nothing about the existence or non-existence of God(s), and actually said something to the effect that answering such questions is not the point of Buddhism--all that was important to Buddha was finding a solution to the problem of suffering.  So yes, an atheist can be a practicing Buddhist quite comfortably.  :thumbup:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18793541 - 09/03/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

All life is suffering (Dukkha):
All aspect of life are essentially unsatisfactory and cause some degree of suffering and pain. Now this ... is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering;
Suffering has its origin in desire. This includes craving, seeking delight here and there, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.

Supposedly this is what the buddha thought


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/03/13 09:23 AM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: FightOrFlight]
    #18793616 - 09/03/13 09:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Lots of Buddhist traditions do believe in Gods, Heavenly Realms, not to mention all of them are on board with reincarnation...so yeah the Buddha's teachings don't rely on a deity at all (Which is definitely part of their appeal). But I wouldn't call it 'atheist,' that makes it sound like a materialist philosophy which it definitely isn't.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: g00ru]
    #18794269 - 09/03/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

How is atheism synonymous with materialism?  :confused:

This book was pretty cool, for what's it worth: Confession of a Buddhist Atheist.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794325 - 09/03/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

what i was trying to say is that to call buddhism atheist makes buddhism seem like something it isn't...


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: g00ru]
    #18794336 - 09/03/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

How so?  There's no contradiction in terms with an atheist practicing Buddhism, or a deist practicing Buddhism for that matter IMO.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: deCypher]
    #18794367 - 09/03/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

yes, anybody can be a Buddhist regardless of other labels they might apply to themselves. I don't see in the teachings of Buddha any commentary on God whatsoever...but then when you take into account that the expanded tradition of Buddhism does incorporate many deities, I would seriously hesitate to call the religion 'atheist' at all. 

But I guess atheist means many things to different people.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


Edited by g00ru (09/03/13 01:32 PM)


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Offlinesolstice
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: g00ru]
    #18794460 - 09/03/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

All very good points made here. To me, it all comes down to language: these prophets like Buddha or Jesus or Muhammad teached so long ago and in such different sets of circumstances that the interpretation factor is too enormous for people to fully understand and compare. Basically, my point of view is that every religious tradition teaches the very same truth and the very same path. The difference lies in misinterpretation due to culture and language. In other words, what Buddha calls '' consciousness '' is refered to as '' God '' in the middle-eastern religions. Both are the same thing, but different cultures have different ways of describing the same things. They use different words, images and symbols.

In the same way, modern science uses the same terminology when talking about The Universe that religious people use when talking about their deity, yet, both parties think they are right and the other one is wrong.


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Man woke up in a world he did not understand and that is why he tries to interpret it - Carl Jung


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: FightOrFlight]
    #18795105 - 09/03/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You must understand that Buddha refused to answer the question 'Does God exist?' One reason is that the word atheism simply means non-theism and theism is but one formulation of Ultimate Reality, which is commonly referred to as God. Even H.H. The Dalai Lama uses the word God in the West, say, at Harvard lectures. The word God immediately constellates every association that one has ever had of God, including early childhood images of an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky from St. Joseph Baltimore's Catholic catechism books, for example.

Theism formulates God as the Supreme Being, and attributes personality to deity, which can reward, punish, become angry, wrathful, jealous, etc. There is also Deism (shared by the founding fathers of the U.S. Constitution), Pantheism, Panentheism, Monotheism, Polytheism, Monism, and my favorite (because I made it up myself) Monopanentheism. In Hinduism there has long been a philosophical distinction between Nirguna Brahman (God without attributes) and Saguna Brahman (God with attributes). Saguna Brahman can be prayed and talked to. Its incarnations like Krishna, or Vishnu are personified. Nirguna Brahman is utterly transcendental and unmanifest. It is sometimes conceptualized as impersonal, but I think the term transpersonal is more appropriate because impersonal seems less than personal in an essential way, and Ultimate Reality is certainly not less than humans, who are personal (unless we're infants, profoundly retarded, or psychopathic in the extreme).

It is my understanding that the Buddha's focus was on Nirguna Brahman, which like his formulation of Sunyata is empty of attributes. Sunyata may be no thing, but it is not nothing. It is the metaphysical substratum of Reality, from which all forms emerge including us. As It is non substantial, so are we. We have no separate self apart from other selves that cannot be reduced to non substantial awareness. Nevertheless, Sunyata is said to be the union of Compassion and Wisdom (Emptiness), which resonates with the Christian dictate that "God is love [agapΓ©]" in 1 John 4:8. So, colorless as Sunyata may be, there is this essential attribute, Compassion. Without positing Compassion, Buddhism would degenerate into cold detachment towards sentient beings instead of the imperative to relieve suffering whenever possible. In a Christian context, 'Light without Love is Luciferian.'

Buddha may be a historical person, as may Iesous, but both personages have been highly mythologized, and neither penned anything by his own hand. Even if both are mythic, or literary composites, the teachings attributed to both are still valid, just as myth is a valid guide to human development if one knows how to learn from them.


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Ξ³Ξ½αΏΆΞΈΞΉ ΟƒΞ±α½Ο„ΟŒΞ½ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: FightOrFlight]
    #18795331 - 09/03/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Why do you feel the need to label yourself?

Learn what you want from various teachings and disregard the rest.

Buddha and Jesus are the same thing to me :shrug:


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: FightOrFlight]
    #18795493 - 09/03/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FightOrFlight said:
Growing up around Christians and having scripture taught in every school I went to, just like most places, I've never had a real belief in god. I've considered myself atheist, although respective of people's beliefs. But over the last year or so I've been taking on the concepts of Buddha and Buddhism for him being 'The awakened one'. But to follow the teachings of Buddha would that be considered as not being atheist?
My understanding is that atheists don't believe in gods or dieties.

For me Buddha would be an exception, because of the style and ways of the things he has taught as a real person.

But then Jesus was said to be a real person

Although the fabric of time and stories has twisted the tails, so what are your thoughts and opinions?




Buddhism is a life philosophy, not a religion. Some Tibetans are theists and a lot of others are atheist Buddhists.


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OfflineFightOrFlight
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Yogi1]
    #18800329 - 09/04/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That I can agree with. Buddha being not a diety or god but a teacher of righteous ways. I've heard about some atheists ripping apart other religions but when it comes to Buddhism they don't have much to say.


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OfflineOld Pokey
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: FightOrFlight]
    #18800642 - 09/04/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

In college it was in the Religious Studies department, not the Philosophy department.  My professor wrote a book entitled, Buddhism, The Religion of Analysis.

The question of the existence of God is much like a Koan from the perspective of Zen (one Buddhist orientation).  The question is only useful for illustrating the limits of the rational mind.


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It's all mythology...


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Old Pokey]
    #18802164 - 09/05/13 05:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Before all other formulaic religions Buddhism teaches that one must first seek to know one's self. One works first with the mind and intention on the basis of the notion of return or karma. But Buddhists can and in fact are human too, and often when they come down from trying to be Bodhisattvas they can fuck up pretty badly. It's like from awakened mind to unconscious dick.  Worse they then think they know everything, because most Buddhists think they can think themselves out of traps and everything else. They can be the street hustlers amongst the religious. Do anything for some good karma even sell your shoes to an old lady.  You can't truth a Buddhist. You can't trust anyone really. Especially an Atheist Buddhist because they are like, both irreligious and religious at the same time. Like, I believe in no God, and well, um, Buddha who unfortunately nobody can agree on wtf Buddha means, which is just why I like it, like St Augustine who said, of Catholicism, 'I believe simply because it doesn't make sense! And well they'll burn me at the stake if I don't.'


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...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: eve69]
    #18802176 - 09/05/13 05:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: FightOrFlight]
    #18802301 - 09/05/13 07:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FightOrFlight said:
That I can agree with. Buddha being not a diety or god but a teacher of righteous ways. I've heard about some atheists ripping apart other religions but when it comes to Buddhism they don't have much to say.




This is actually not true, atheists attempt to rip apart Christianity because it is the most popular religion in the Western world. However, if you try to explain Buddhism to an atheist, they will reject all the spiritual ideas of Buddhism with just as much stupidity and arrogance as they reject Christianity. Also,  Buddha is believed to have been a god, heavenly or celestial being by most Buddhists. A fully awake one at the very least, which puts him on the level of deity.

His philosophy is not compatible with that of atheism because atheists do not acknowledge the possibility of becoming fully awake. If they did, they would have to acknowledge that Christianity (for example) is another valid path to awakening for the soul.

How many atheists do you know who acknowledge the truth of Christianity? How many even believe we have a soul, or in reincarnation, or miracles or half the shit that Buddhists teach?

If we take the word atheist to simply mean non theist, then yes it is theoretically possible for a buddhist to call themself atheist. However, because of the cultural connotations of the word atheism, a Buddhist calling himself atheist is terribly misleading. In our society, to say you are atheist means you do not share the spiritual worldview. It does not make much sense to me to call yourself atheist, while holding a completely spiritual worldview, which Buddhism undoubtedly is.


Edited by Deviate (09/05/13 07:11 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Deviate]
    #18802320 - 09/05/13 07:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I see just as much arrogance and stupidity among the so called "spiritual" as the non spiritual.

As and atheist or agnostic I can appreciate the psychological truths in buddhism or any religion without buying the whole package much of which is likely nonsense imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Icelander]
    #18802340 - 09/05/13 07:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I see just as much arrogance and stupidity among the so called "spiritual" as the non spiritual.




How are you defining spiritual people?

Quote:


As and atheist or agnostic I can appreciate the psychological truths in buddhism or any religion without buying the whole package much of which is likely nonsense imo.




I don't understand why you couldn't do that as a theist also. If you have time, I also wouldn't mind hearing you elaborate on which aspects of Buddism are nonsense and your method for separating the truth from the nonsense in Buddhism.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Deviate]
    #18802366 - 09/05/13 07:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I define spiritual people as those that call themselves spiritual.

I think the Buddha's ideas on the causes of suffering or the unsatisfactoriness of life are psychologically spot on.

The belief that the buddha was more than a man who discovered psychological truths doesn't make sense imo as there is no evidence of him being anything other than that.  For example. Just because people believe him to be a god doesn't make him one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Deviate]
    #18802451 - 09/05/13 08:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

buddhists don't believe Buddha to be a god - though some deify him after his enlightenment, but i think most if not all think he was a human being who reached enlightenment. Hindus on the other hand have incorporated Buddha into their worldview by considering him a divine incarnation of Vishnu - and the teachings which are at odds with Hindu beliefs are said to be his way of purposely misleading certain groups of people :lol:

but I agree with Deviate in that the term atheist, while technically true for most Buddhists, isn't fitting due to it's modern usage to typically mean someone who rejects anything beyond physicality. rebirth, karma, etc. i don't think are very appealing notions to most people who self-identify as atheists


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: deff]
    #18802480 - 09/05/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

IMO they are only unappealing because there is not any real evidence that they exist.  In the same way an atheist does not believe in a god due to lack of evidence.  They don't or should not claim to "know" there is no god. That would be hubris.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Deviate]
    #18802545 - 09/05/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Awakening, enlightenment, and even Nirvana can all be attained without spirituality. Awakening doesnt have to have anything to do with spirit. SOME Buddhists believe in the Bardo and the many dieties. SOME dont.

You simply cant rip on Buddhism because its not founded on outdated canon containing hate speech and contradiction. That's why atheists cant really hate it. Atheists dont really hate religion, they hate people not thinking for themselves. At least thats my experience with my circle of Atheists.


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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Yogi1]
    #18802567 - 09/05/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Atheists dont really hate religion, they hate people not thinking for themselves. At least thats my experience with my circle of Atheists.


Same with my atheist friends.  Usually religion isn't even on their radar and they rarely speak about it. They came to their conclusions long ago and know that the religious aren't listening.  They have other interests.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOld Pokey
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Re: Atheist Buddhist? [Re: Icelander]
    #18802825 - 09/05/13 10:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I see just as much arrogance and stupidity among the so called "spiritual" as the non spiritual.

As and atheist or agnostic I can appreciate the psychological truths in buddhism or any religion without buying the whole package much of which is likely nonsense imo.




strongly agree


--------------------
It's all mythology...


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