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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #18791019 - 09/02/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
I said there is a correlation between intelligence and income. Not intelligence and wealth.
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Wealth & income are very different things from the studies that I read the other day before any of your request itseems there doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between I.Q.and inherited wealth (I really don't find that surprising) but many of the studies I read found a correlation between I.Q. and income. There seems to be some consensus on that point in many studies with much disagreement as to why.




and it would appear that you would agree with me. Do you in anyway disagree? our original discussion was about income not wealth.
Quote:

Boldaslove said:
I never argued there wasn't a correlation between income and IQ.



Quote:

Boldaslove said:
I agree. Several studies found correlations between IQ and income




Besides poor people obviously don't have wealth so  wealth becomes a moot point. I would have to assume by your previous statements that you agree with my position




So I looked back, and it seems the origins of our discussion aren't clear. I do not disagree that there is a correlation between IQ and income. However, the reason I brought all this up was your claim that a greater percentage of people in government housing projects are of low IQ. I see this as a wealth issue, not an income issue. Wealth is not a moot point, because the poor have wealth, just less of it. That is why I see it as a more accurate measure than income. It is possible to have a very low income, but still be wealthy and vice-versa.

Regardless, the only way to know is a study that addresses the issue directly. I am still waiting to see the studies to confirm most of your claims by the way. I am very interested in them.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791171 - 09/02/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You keep proving that you don't know what it means every time you say that a failure to find one is evidence of the opposite proposition.  This is not clear thinking.





Actually, it is called evidence of absence. The question is whether the analysis conducted is valid enough to be evidence of absence, as opposed to absence of evidence. And in my opinion, some of the studies, particularly Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Ooosterbeek's, have analysis that is valid enough to be evidence of absence. But the statement you just made is not true regardless.

Quote:

Thanks for clearing that up.  I actually went back to try to find what you were talking about and, surprise, it wasn't there.




I had quoted the study's abstract and one other line, but forgot to link it. Now that the link is provided, would you care to comment on the methodology?

Quote:

I know I'm right.




Excellent argument. Actually, you just think you are right; you haven't provided any evidence whatsoever to support your claim. You have yet to comment on a single study's methodology and shown how it supports your claim of bias.

Quote:

I don't need to comment on their methodology because I read the abstract and it starts with this

Quote:


We explore the effect of schooling on health, wealth and happiness for a cohort of Dutch
individuals born around 1940.




Once again, schooling is not intelligence




Had you read the very next line in the abstract, you would realize that they looked at IQ separately:

"We also use observations on childhood IQ and family background."

They investigated the effects of IQ, removed from other factors and found:

"We find that IQ affects health, but not wealth or happiness"

Now, would you like to comment on the study's methodology and show how it introduces bias?

Quote:

If IQ is correlated with income and income is correlated with wealth it would strike me that there would also be a strong correlation between wealth and IQ, although, as has been pointed out, that wasn't the argument you were responding to.  Further you have failed to disprove a realtionship.




If the correlation were really that simple or strong, you think they would have found it by now. They have not. Up until now, I have not seen a study that has found a strong correlation between IQ and wealth.

And I have not tried to disprove the relationship. I never tried to prove anything. I have only tried to show evidence, not proof, and I thought I had made that clear, but my apologies if that wasn't the case.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineSmokey420
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 1,057
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 1
    #18791232 - 09/02/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I stopped reading after Fox.



And I stopped taking you seriously after I saw 420 in your name



And I never took you seriously to begin with, so we're on even ground. 420 is a cooler number then 18 :shrug:


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18791520 - 09/02/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You keep proving that you don't know what it means every time you say that a failure to find one is evidence of the opposite proposition.  This is not clear thinking.





Actually, it is called evidence of absence. The question is whether the analysis conducted is valid enough to be evidence of absence, as opposed to absence of evidence. And in my opinion, some of the studies, particularly Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Ooosterbeek's, have analysis that is valid enough to be evidence of absence. But the statement you just made is not true regardless.

Quote:

Thanks for clearing that up.  I actually went back to try to find what you were talking about and, surprise, it wasn't there.




I had quoted the study's abstract and one other line, but forgot to link it. Now that the link is provided, would you care to comment on the methodology?

Quote:

I know I'm right.




Excellent argument. Actually, you just think you are right; you haven't provided any evidence whatsoever to support your claim. You have yet to comment on a single study's methodology and shown how it supports your claim of bias.

Quote:

I don't need to comment on their methodology because I read the abstract and it starts with this

Quote:


We explore the effect of schooling on health, wealth and happiness for a cohort of Dutch
individuals born around 1940.




Once again, schooling is not intelligence




Had you read the very next line in the abstract, you would realize that they looked at IQ separately:

"We also use observations on childhood IQ and family background."

They investigated the effects of IQ, removed from other factors and found:

"We find that IQ affects health, but not wealth or happiness"

Now, would you like to comment on the study's methodology and show how it introduces bias?

Quote:

If IQ is correlated with income and income is correlated with wealth it would strike me that there would also be a strong correlation between wealth and IQ, although, as has been pointed out, that wasn't the argument you were responding to.  Further you have failed to disprove a realtionship.




If the correlation were really that simple or strong, you think they would have found it by now. They have not. Up until now, I have not seen a study that has found a strong correlation between IQ and wealth.

And I have not tried to disprove the relationship. I never tried to prove anything. I have only tried to show evidence, not proof, and I thought I had made that clear, but my apologies if that wasn't the case.




Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

They found no statstically significant correlation.  That does not mean there isn't one.  They just didn't find one.  Do you know what "statistically significant" means?




No need to get callous. Them not finding a correlation is evidence that it doesn't exist. Them finding a correlation is evidence that it does exist. They didn't find one.





When one performs an experiment that relies on statistical analysis it begins with a hypothesis, collects data and submits that data to a statistical test that requires a minimum of 95% confidence and more often 98 or 99%.  A failure to reach that confidence level is of no value in establishing the opposite proposition.  In order to do that one would have to design a study looking specifically at that question and find it to within a statistical level of confidence of minimum 95%.  I do not know why you cannot grasp this.  And you can design a study to find an absence of correlation.

Stupid people make less money and commit more crime.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791652 - 09/02/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
When one performs an experiment that relies on statistical analysis it begins with a hypothesis, collects data and submits that data to a statistical test that requires a minimum of 95% confidence and more often 98 or 99%.  A failure to reach that confidence level is of no value in establishing the opposite proposition.  In order to do that one would have to design a study looking specifically at that question and find it to within a statistical level of confidence of minimum 95%.  I do not know why you cannot grasp this.  And you can design a study to find an absence of correlation.

Stupid people make less money and commit more crime.




Once again, I have not made any claims that these experiments show, to any level of confidence, that the correlation does not exist. I have only said that they are evidence that it doesn't exist. These studies specifically looked for that correlation and didn't find it. This is evidence of absence. This is not proof, this is merely evidence.

And can I assume from you ignoring my questions about methodology that you have no interest in supporting your claim regarding bias?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18791694 - 09/02/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

They are not evidence of any such thing. 

I went back through the thread and cannot tell what study you want me to comment on the methodology of.  I assume you know and can re link it so I don't have to go through all of the irrelevant bullshit again.  Thanks in advance


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791744 - 09/02/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I went back through the thread and cannot tell what study you want me to comment on the methodology of.  I assume you know and can re link it so I don't have to go through all of the irrelevant bullshit again.  Thanks in advance




This is your original post that I am referring to, and my response.

Quote:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?





From what I can find, you haven't posted anything specific from any methodologies. You quoted the abstract of one study, which I admitted didn't actually research the topic. Though, that doesn't support your claim, as the author's never made any claims (that I could find) trying to disprove the correlation. You also commented on an article I quoted, and discussed the first line from the abstract of a separate study. This is the extent of what I could find that you posted, but if I missed anything, please link it.

The two methodologies I am particularly interested in you commenting on are Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Oosterbeek's (both have been linked in this thread).


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18791764 - 09/02/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I went back through the thread and cannot tell what study you want me to comment on the methodology of.  I assume you know and can re link it so I don't have to go through all of the irrelevant bullshit again.  Thanks in advance




This is your original post that I am referring to, and my response.

Quote:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?





From what I can find, you haven't posted anything specific from any methodologies. You quoted the abstract of one study, which I admitted didn't actually research the topic. Though, that doesn't support your claim, as the author's never made any claims (that I could find) trying to disprove the correlation. You also commented on an article I quoted, and discussed the first line from the abstract of a separate study. This is the extent of what I could find that you posted, but if I missed anything, please link it.

The two methodologies I am particularly interested in you commenting on are Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Oosterbeek's (both have been linked in this thread).




--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791783 - 09/02/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I went back through the thread and cannot tell what study you want me to comment on the methodology of.  I assume you know and can re link it so I don't have to go through all of the irrelevant bullshit again.  Thanks in advance




This is your original post that I am referring to, and my response.

Quote:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




What part of their methodology invoked bias into the results?





From what I can find, you haven't posted anything specific from any methodologies. You quoted the abstract of one study, which I admitted didn't actually research the topic. Though, that doesn't support your claim, as the author's never made any claims (that I could find) trying to disprove the correlation. You also commented on an article I quoted, and discussed the first line from the abstract of a separate study. This is the extent of what I could find that you posted, but if I missed anything, please link it.

The two methodologies I am particularly interested in you commenting on are Zagorsky's and Hastrog and Oosterbeek's (both have been linked in this thread).







My bad. Misread and thought you meant you didn't know what you needed to comment regarding.

Zagorsky's study

Hastrog and Oosterbeek's study


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Smokey420]
    #18791823 - 09/02/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
I stopped reading after Fox.



And I stopped taking you seriously after I saw 420 in your name



And I never took you seriously to begin with, so we're on even ground. 420 is a cooler number then 18 :shrug:



You don't take me seriously because you fear that you are wrong about your socialist ideology. By dismissing me and my opnions you solidify your dogma.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 1
    #18791847 - 09/02/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Zagorsky
Quote:

If you do not have a Username and Password, click the "Register to Purchase" button below to purchase this article.

Price: US $ 31.50




Hastrog

Quote:

For our analyses we use a unique Dutch data set




--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18791909 - 09/02/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Zagorsky
Quote:

If you do not have a Username and Password, click the "Register to Purchase" button below to purchase this article.

Price: US $ 31.50








I have access to this paper through my institution. I am sorry that you don't have access.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Hastrog

Quote:

For our analyses we use a unique Dutch data set







And how does this support your claim? Hastrog and Oosterbeek are Dutch, which is why it would make sense that they study Dutch individuals. The Brabant survey, which they refer to in their study, seems like a fair sample to me.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #18791962 - 09/02/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Whatever.  You asked me to comment on their methodology and I did.  You didn't link the Brabant survey and I didn't see any need to go further into Hastrog.


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18792013 - 09/02/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Whatever.  You asked me to comment on their methodology and I did.  You didn't link the Brabant survey and I didn't see any need to go further into Hastrog.




I asked you to show which part of their methodology invoked bias into the results (and supports your claim of them trying to disprove the impact of IQ), you didn't. Not even close. I didn't link the survey, because I figured someone who had evidence to support his theories would be able to find it themselves. Nonetheless, here is the survey.

So far you've provided zero evidence to support your claim, and you show little interest in commenting on the methodologies of the studies I provided. In fact, you didn't even read the methodology of at least Zagorsky's study, and possibly others. So you can't have drawn evidence from there. With this being the case, can you provide evidence from other sources to support your claim?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18792091 - 09/02/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Whatever.  You asked me to comment on their methodology and I did.  You didn't link the Brabant survey and I didn't see any need to go further into Hastrog.




I asked you to show which part of their methodology invoked bias into the results (and supports your claim of them trying to disprove the impact of IQ), you didn't. Not even close. I didn't link the survey, because I figured someone who had evidence to support his theories would be able to find it themselves. Nonetheless, here is the survey.

So far you've provided zero evidence to support your claim, and you show little interest in commenting on the methodologies of the studies I provided. In fact, you didn't even read the methodology of at least Zagorsky's study, and possibly others. So you can't have drawn evidence from there. With this being the case, can you provide evidence from other sources to support your claim?


I can't read the Zagorsky methodology unless you paste it.  I am not paying 30 dollars to see  a study that found nothing.  I made a comment on Hastrog's methodology.  The first thing you look at is the sample.  Duh.

Which claim would you like me to support?  That poor people are stupid?  Really?  I believe the Bell Curve established that.


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18792268 - 09/02/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I can't read the Zagorsky methodology unless you paste it.  I am not paying 30 dollars to see  a study that found nothing.  I made a comment on Hastrog's methodology.  The first thing you look at is the sample.  Duh.

Which claim would you like me to support?  That poor people are stupid?  Really?  I believe the Bell Curve established that.




I'm not going to paste a study that I don't own. I don't have the right to post anything that isn't already available free of charge. My point in mentioning that study and how you didn't read it is that you made your claim with a seemingly very narrow scope of evidence, you were already commenting on the intentions of a man you never met (I'm assuming. Correct me if I'm wrong.) and a study you never read.

You did make a comment on the methodology of Hastrog and Oosterbeek. You didn't, however, make any clarification on how that introduced bias. In fact, now that I've posted an explanation of the data set this study used, you still haven't made any clarifications as to how it invokes bias. And you certainly haven't shown how it provides evidence for your claim that:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




Which, by the way, is the claim I would like you to support. I have made this pretty clear in the last few posts. So, I will pose my question again. Can you provide evidence to support your claim that social researchers are actively vested in disproving a correlation of IQ with wealth/income?

And if I have misunderstood your claim (you can see the small conversation we had regarding it in this post), please clarify.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18794813 - 09/03/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

I can't read the Zagorsky methodology unless you paste it.  I am not paying 30 dollars to see  a study that found nothing.  I made a comment on Hastrog's methodology.  The first thing you look at is the sample.  Duh.

Which claim would you like me to support?  That poor people are stupid?  Really?  I believe the Bell Curve established that.




I'm not going to paste a study that I don't own. I don't have the right to post anything that isn't already available free of charge. My point in mentioning that study and how you didn't read it is that you made your claim with a seemingly very narrow scope of evidence, you were already commenting on the intentions of a man you never met (I'm assuming. Correct me if I'm wrong.) and a study you never read.

You did make a comment on the methodology of Hastrog and Oosterbeek. You didn't, however, make any clarification on how that introduced bias. In fact, now that I've posted an explanation of the data set this study used, you still haven't made any clarifications as to how it invokes bias. And you certainly haven't shown how it provides evidence for your claim that:

Quote:

I think they have difficulty accepting it and are actually invested in disproving it.




Which, by the way, is the claim I would like you to support. I have made this pretty clear in the last few posts. So, I will pose my question again. Can you provide evidence to support your claim that social researchers are actively vested in disproving a correlation of IQ with wealth/income?

And if I have misunderstood your claim (you can see the small conversation we had regarding it in this post), please clarify.




Social scientists skew extremely liberal. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html?_r=0

I don't know if you remember the hue and cry that went up when The Bell Curve came out but they were pilloried by the community.  I think they are actively invested in providing external excuses for people's failures.


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18795250 - 09/03/13 04:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Social scientists skew extremely liberal. 




Social scientists skewing liberal is not support for your claim. You claimed that they are actively invested in disproving that IQ and wealth are correlated. I am asking for evidence that supports this claim. An article about how most social scientists are liberal is not that evidence.

I figured the easiest and most direct evidence would come from the studies on this subject matter themselves. If the studies are really that biased, you should be able to find flaws in their methodology and explain how that is them actively trying to disprove any correlation, but I have not yet seen that, or any other evidence, to support your claim.

Quote:

I don't know if you remember the hue and cry that went up when The Bell Curve came out but they were pilloried by the community.  I think they are actively invested in providing external excuses for people's failures.




Or they were trying to point out flaws in the book. The most obvious of which is that the book was not peer-reviewed, and therefore the validity of the data is immediately in question, which is what caused a lot of the hubbub. Since that time, however, several peer reviews have been done and published and are available online if you are interested.

Furthermore, the criticism that the authors placed too much statistical importance on g (their measure of general intelligence) is well placed in my opinion. They did not put enough importance on family background or parental socioeconomic status. And separate investigations using the same data but weighting it differently (especially when it comes to the effects of education), found drastically different results, which further casts doubt on The Bell Curve's findings as a whole.

However, I will agree with you that The Bell Curve deserves praise for investigating something that isn't often looked at. It also deserves praise for triggering much more investigation into the topic matter. Irregardless of this, many of the criticisms are justified, and using this example does not support your claim that social scientists are actively invested in disproving relationships between IQ and wealth/income.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #18795297 - 09/03/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Social scientists skew extremely liberal. 




Social scientists skewing liberal is not support for your claim. You claimed that they are actively invested in disproving that IQ and wealth are correlated. I am asking for evidence that supports this claim. An article about how most social scientists are liberal is not that evidence.




What do you think liberal means?
Quote:



I figured the easiest and most direct evidence would come from the studies on this subject matter themselves. If the studies are really that biased, you should be able to find flaws in their methodology and explain how that is them actively trying to disprove any correlation, but I have not yet seen that, or any other evidence, to support your claim.




I took apart the methodology of the only study in which the methodology was presented
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I don't know if you remember the hue and cry that went up when The Bell Curve came out but they were pilloried by the community.  I think they are actively invested in providing external excuses for people's failures.




Or they were trying to point out flaws in the book. The most obvious of which is that the book was not peer-reviewed, and therefore the validity of the data is immediately in question, which is what caused a lot of the hubbub. Since that time, however, several peer reviews have been done and published and are available online if you are interested.




Not peer reviewed is now a flaw?  They reviewed it.  They went nuts
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Furthermore, the criticism that the authors placed too much statistical importance on g (their measure of general intelligence) is well placed in my opinion. They did not put enough importance on family background or parental socioeconomic status. And separate investigations using the same data but weighting it differently (especially when it comes to the effects of education), found drastically different results, which further casts doubt on The Bell Curve's findings as a whole.




I don't give a shit why people are stupid.  Just that they are.
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However, I will agree with you that The Bell Curve deserves praise for investigating something that isn't often looked at. It also deserves praise for triggering much more investigation into the topic matter. Irregardless of this, many of the criticisms are justified, and using this example does not support your claim that social scientists are actively invested in disproving relationships between IQ and wealth/income.




Perhaps we should do a study.  We can canvass social scientists and ask if they  are more likely to try to replicate Watson et al or disprove Watson et al.  Wanna bet how it turns out?


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Does more poverty = more crime? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18795371 - 09/03/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think liberal means?




I don't think it means "One who is actively invested in disproving correlations between IQ and wealth." I am still waiting for you to present direct evidence to support your claim.

Quote:

I took apart the methodology of the only study in which the methodology was presented




Not true. You didn't present anything at all from the methodology of that study. The sentence you quoted the first time came from the abstract, and the few words you posted yesterday, came from the Introduction. Neither of which is the methodology, and neither time did you offer any insight or explanation of your own. When I questioned why you thought it showed bias (much less active intent to skew results), I received no response. That hardly constitutes "taking apart" and it certainly doesn't constitute evidence for your claim.

Furthermore, the methodology was presented in all the studies I linked, but from what I garner, you haven't read more than one of them. This is hardly enough information for you to make your claim.

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Not peer reviewed is now a flaw?  They reviewed it.  They went nuts




If author's were hoping for their data to be more credible, than it is their flaw. In the scientific community something that is not peer-reviewed carries far less credibility than something that is. This is why books are rarely cited in published studies. Peer-review allows the data and methodology to be examined by experts in the field for biases, errors, and omissions. Because The Bell Curve did not do this, it shouldn't be surprising that their findings weren't immediately accepted.

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I don't give a shit why people are stupid.  Just that they are.




What I posted in no way discussed reasons for people's stupidity, and your response is not a rebuttal. These were criticisms raised by multiple sources and still cast doubt on The Bell Curve's findings. If you are interested in proving your point, you need to show why these criticisms are not justified, and are instead the social scientists actively trying to disprove correlations between IQ and wealth/income.

Quote:

Perhaps we should do a study.  We can canvass social scientists and ask if they  are more likely to try to replicate Watson et al or disprove Watson et al.  Wanna bet how it turns out?




Do you have results for such study? Because if you don't then you are simply making assumptions. Either way, I still don't see how this supports your claim.


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DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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