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Offlinepsilocybebonsai
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Settle a debate for me, please
    #18788287 - 09/02/13 04:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

so...

a friend and i are having a discussion about how pasteurization works.

I'm telling him that it kills the mold and prevents it from 'spreading'. When you spawn to your  substrate its basically taking your mycelium (that has already grown from spores) and putting it in an optimal environment for it to continue to grow and that any mold that was growing before is being taken over by mycelium.

On the other hand, in theory, you could take a colony of mold (that hasnt sporulated, yet) and spawn it to pasteurized substrate and it will grow. If you attempt to inoculate that substrate with a spore syringe then the spores wouldnt have enough time to germinate and form mycelium before the mold takes over.

So, its all about which 'bacteria' (assuming mycelium is a bacteria) you want to grow.

Is that fair to say?

He is having trouble believing that mold wont grow and that even if you pasteurize, it seems ridiculous NOT to be sterile when you spawn your grain to your substrate, so he wants more FAE (to prevent mold) and i'm telling him you want more CO2, for colonizing.

I can make this more complex but i'll stop here.

Thanks


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OfflineSockadin
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: psilocybebonsai]
    #18788297 - 09/02/13 04:40 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Couple of points.
  • Bacteria and Fungi are different things.
  • You don't want to fan during colonization.
  • Increasing FAE will increase the chances for contamination in uncolonized subs.



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Offlinepsilocybebonsai
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: Sockadin]
    #18788305 - 09/02/13 04:49 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

thanks for the reply.

Sorry, i must have been unclear. What i meant was, for the sake of argument, just assume that they're the same thing.. but i guess even that is irrelevant.

I guess my main point is...
I'm implying that the reason why you dont get mold is because the pasteurization process halts the mold growth while you spawn your grain to the substrate which allows for the mushroom mycelium to grow much quicker, since it has skipped the spore-germination process.

Soooo, would it be true to say that if you spawned mold mycelium to a pasteurized substrate and also simulated fungal 'contamination' by inoculating spores into the substrate that the mold would 'win the race' in the same way as i described above?


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: psilocybebonsai]
    #18788310 - 09/02/13 04:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Correct^


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Offlinepsilocybebonsai
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18788319 - 09/02/13 05:00 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

do you have any idea on how long it takes for mold spores to germinate? pasteurizing is about a 2 week window, and mushroom spores can take up to about 5 days before they germinate. i'm assuming mold spores i longer, otherwise people would have issues more often with bulk subs... maybe?


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: psilocybebonsai]
    #18788365 - 09/02/13 05:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

They don't take very long, I can tell you that. Probably faster than mushroom spores. The molds are certainly stronger.
Some people do have issues. Molds can hide in your culture, on grains ect, & show up on the bulk sub., and certainly grow on your substrate surface. A high spore count Iin the immediate area of your substrates exposed surface is an easy win for the mold.
  If you get the substrate too hot it can leave it more susceptible to molds from your air.
  Then you have things that encourage growth of all kinds, which if germinated, will boost mold growth beyond normal rate as well.  Increased supplemental nutrition, gypsum ect.
    The PH of coir and other bulk substrates does allow mold spore germination. 

Its always a race to full colonization. Take every step you need to win that race.
The foundation of clean culture is the most important.
Nothing can proceed without that foundation. Many chase their tails around that maze.
From then, following the right procedures carefully in a sanitary place is the best bet.


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18788379 - 09/02/13 05:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

A quick google search told me
Mold spore germination :
12-24hrs given the right conditions

Which is evident


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Offlineinvitro


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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: psilocybebonsai]
    #18788538 - 09/02/13 07:07 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psilocybebonsai said:
thanks for the reply.

Sorry, i must have been unclear. What i meant was, for the sake of argument, just assume that they're the same thing.. but i guess even that is irrelevant.

I guess my main point is...
I'm implying that the reason why you dont get mold is because the pasteurization process halts the mold growth while you spawn your grain to the substrate which allows for the mushroom mycelium to grow much quicker, since it has skipped the spore-germination process.

Soooo, would it be true to say that if you spawned mold mycelium to a pasteurized substrate and also simulated fungal 'contamination' by inoculating spores into the substrate that the mold would 'win the race' in the same way as i described above?





Pasteurization halts "bad mold" growth, letting certain heat tolerant molds take over.  Generally speaking you won't see these molds.  The good mold prevents the bad molds from taking over.  Interestingly, the good mold does not fight off mushroom mycelium, allowing it to take over.  Chances are the good mold has already germinated and established itself somewhat before you pasteurize, so it gets a head start, thus it wins, thus it's not necessary to be sterile at this point.

A fully colonized mushroom cake can be exposed to millions of mold spores and fight them all off, I routinely expose mushroom cakes to open air that is loaded with bad spores, they don't contaminate at all.  I think it's assumed that the good molds are equally good at fighting bad molds.  It would be so much harder to keep substrate sterile, even if it helps somewhat, it would make life very difficult.  Everyone would have to set up a clean room to fruit.  Generally the success rate with conventional methods is high enough that it wouldn't be worth the trouble even if it did help.


Edited by invitro (09/02/13 09:26 AM)


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: invitro]
    #18788648 - 09/02/13 08:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Its helpful bacteria not good molds. Pasteurization kills mold spores and harmful bacteria while letting helpful bacteria survive. & yes what he's talking about is the deal. Germination and growth of previously established mold mycelium are two different ideas. The spawned mold will race through the substrate


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Offlineblojo02184
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18788715 - 09/02/13 08:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If you were to sterilize the substrate, no fungal spores would have time to germinate.

Likewise, the race of mold vs fungus in a properly pasteurized substrate, mold wins.

In the case of spawning to properly pasteurized substrate, the substrate has small bacteria within that help keep the substrate clear for the fungus.


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: blojo02184]
    #18788755 - 09/02/13 09:05 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I think you said that backwards^ in the first part


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Offlineinvitro


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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18788886 - 09/02/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
Its helpful bacteria not good molds. Pasteurization kills mold spores and harmful bacteria while letting helpful bacteria survive. & yes what he's talking about is the deal. Germination and growth of previously established mold mycelium are two different ideas. The spawned mold will race through the substrate




I think your right on the nomenclature, the parts where I said good mold should read good bacteria.  The procedure is the same though.  Also, I wasn't responding to his idea of adding mold mycelium to a substrate but rather the idea that mold spores would be a danger to properly pasteurized substrate.  The danger is minimal I think, and that's how most people operate.  To put it another way, the open air is constantly innoculating the substrate with mold spores, yet people don't need to fruit in sterile conditions.  It can be assumed that the good bacteria is fighting them off.

To respond to the idea of adding mold mycelium to the substrate, the beneficial bacteria would fight the mold, slowing it down.  Who would win?  Probably the mold.


Edited by invitro (09/02/13 09:51 AM)


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Offlineraisinbrannan
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: invitro]
    #18789255 - 09/02/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Will the mushroom mycelium still win if you were to completely seal your colonization chamber?


Edited by raisinbrannan (09/02/13 12:06 PM)


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: raisinbrannan]
    #18789295 - 09/02/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Pasteurization kills mold spores and live molds in your substrate. It also allows thermophilic (heat-loving) bacteria to colonize your substrate. This thermophilic bacteria is "good" bacteria. It prevents mold spores from germinating and "bad" bacteria from growing but allows your healthy culture to rip through it.

Once the jars are removed from the pasteurization bath to cool this "good" bacteria takes over the rest of the substrate. It gets even better hold on it when you mix your spawn and substrate together.

Problems with pasteurizing are usually due to temps that are too hot at the core of the substrate. Problems with molds on a properly pasteurized substrate is usually due to molds "hiding" and hitching a ride with your culture.

edit for thread jack: you need GE for colonization, do not seal your chamber completely.


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Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/02/13 12:55 PM)


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Offlineraisinbrannan
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18789654 - 09/02/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So right now I have 7/8 holes taped off (1 polyfill) and the lid allows some airflow too, is that enough GE or should I polyfill more?

(Kind of jacking his thread but I'm the one that was discussing the topic with OP so he won't care)


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Settle a debate for me, please [Re: raisinbrannan]
    #18789700 - 09/02/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The imperfect seal on the lid provides the needed GE.

You don't even need polyfill until fruiting.


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