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OfflineCosmicDebris
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Fresh Perspectives
    #18787928 - 09/02/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

In the last few years my experiences with cannabis and psychedelics like psilocybin, LSD, LSA, and Ketamine, and I'm beginning to feel more and more alienated in my thinking and attitudes towards hallucinogens and life in general.  My upbringing was fundamentalist Christian and that eventually lead to a pretty hard-nosed skeptical view of everything. Initially, I began using these substances "for fun" which, while I have had lots of fun on low dose trips, when on high doses things get more serious and indeed mystical/spiritual.  I'm now more open to the idea that all religions/spirituality essentially points toward the same "God(s)" which I feel a deep, personal connection with at this point in my life.

However, I have a difficult time talking to anyone about these things, especially my friends who take the same substances I do yet they constantly dismiss their experiences and ridicule what I describe about my own feelings of oneness and interconnectedness, etc.  They're more or less Dawkins'-type Atheists and they'll tell me things like "there are no more mysteries thanks to Science, your brain is just misfiring on hallucinogens".  I don't try to shove anything down anyone's throats because I'm quite agnostic when all is said and done.  I'm feeling quite alone lately, am I deluding myself with psychedelics and what I experience or is there reason for me to take these things seriously?  My bizarre and wonderful experiences on psilocybin for example just seem too much for me to ignore!  Let me know your thoughts, thank you.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: CosmicDebris]
    #18787966 - 09/02/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You are not at all alone.

I have friends just like yours, and if you know a little about string theory you can hold your own against these types. Science doesn't have answers for everything, it has theories for most things, and if string theory is true then we are all interconnected through the dimensions of which there are far more than we can perceive.

I would probably use Sagan and Flatlanders on them to explain how it isn't such an absurd idea that we are all interconnected as well as Einstein:



If they are "Dawkins type" then I would think that they should respect Sagan.

But yeah, I believe what you believe basically, that all religions are based on the same fundamentals and the beliefs are varying, but the principles are the only important part of the religions anyway.

I would even go so far as to say that all religions could have come from the very same teaching and after many years of translations and editing they ended up to what they are today, and even if not they are somehow pointing at the same phenomena, and the most prominent one is the Golden Rule (Or Kant's Universal Maxim) which resonates through most all legitimate religions.

Welcome to the boards!


--------------------
.6th and 7th sense theory
.Now is forever. .ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞTheﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞUnseenﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ is seenﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ by the blindﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ eye.ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
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ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ.When the inevitable time comes, go with your head held high,without regret or remorse, in your subconscious mind.
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OfflineCosmicDebris
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: teknix]
    #18788038 - 09/02/13 01:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the info and thoughtful response, I already feel welcome here! :smile:

Admittedly, I was more or less of the Scientistic mindset up until recently but I'm now disillusioned by it just like I was with fundie Christianity.  Do you happen to have anymore information on the unity of religions/God?  Also, I'd like to know more about logical and reasonable reasons to critique Scientism?  It seems as though I encounter more and more of the aggressive rationalist type even when I keep my thoughts to myself!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: CosmicDebris] * 1
    #18788040 - 09/02/13 02:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicDebris said:
In the last few years my experiences with cannabis and psychedelics like psilocybin, LSD, LSA, and Ketamine, and I'm beginning to feel more and more alienated in my thinking and attitudes towards hallucinogens and life in general.  My upbringing was fundamentalist Christian and that eventually lead to a pretty hard-nosed skeptical view of everything. Initially, I began using these substances "for fun" which, while I have had lots of fun on low dose trips, when on high doses things get more serious and indeed mystical/spiritual.  I'm now more open to the idea that all religions/spirituality essentially points toward the same "God(s)" which I feel a deep, personal connection with at this point in my life.

However, I have a difficult time talking to anyone about these things, especially my friends who take the same substances I do yet they constantly dismiss their experiences and ridicule what I describe about my own feelings of oneness and interconnectedness, etc.  They're more or less Dawkins'-type Atheists and they'll tell me things like "there are no more mysteries thanks to Science, your brain is just misfiring on hallucinogens".  I don't try to shove anything down anyone's throats because I'm quite agnostic when all is said and done.  I'm feeling quite alone lately, am I deluding myself with psychedelics and what I experience or is there reason for me to take these things seriously?  My bizarre and wonderful experiences on psilocybin for example just seem too much for me to ignore!  Let me know your thoughts, thank you.





I think we'll never likely know for sure what's up with all this shit.  If your current beliefs bring you pleasure then fuck what anyone else says. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineCosmicDebris
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: Icelander]
    #18788049 - 09/02/13 02:07 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You're probably right, Icelander, I appreciate your kindness as well, I think I often worry everyone on the internet is an asshole ha ha.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: CosmicDebris]
    #18788061 - 09/02/13 02:13 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

No problem dude.  Life is a tough road ime and any thing that helps is appreciated.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: CosmicDebris]
    #18788113 - 09/02/13 02:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicDebris said:
Thanks for the info and thoughtful response, I already feel welcome here! :smile:

Admittedly, I was more or less of the Scientistic mindset up until recently but I'm now disillusioned by it just like I was with fundie Christianity.  Do you happen to have anymore information on the unity of religions/God?  Also, I'd like to know more about logical and reasonable reasons to critique Scientism?  It seems as though I encounter more and more of the aggressive rationalist type even when I keep my thoughts to myself!





I think the golden rule covers most bases, such as don't kill, don't steal, respect each other, etc., . . . But the teachings about love is what is most applicable, and Science doesn't seem to deal with such moral questions or ethics that are subjective, so Scientism can't be the ultimate way of knowing everything, or all knowing isn't based on science necessarily, especially when you consider self-evident truth.

Science is concerned about the objective and tangible world, but that is not all there is, as scientism would claim. Scientism excludes other perspectives without compromise which only further divides us by claiming superiority, creating another dogma and fixed perspective unyielding  to other perspectives in which we have to deal with on a daily basis. It isn't realistic view imo.

It is good for determining how things do what they do, but it doesn't have any compassion or empathy that the world requires to achieve peace. Scientism often makes the mistake of considering the small sample space of what it knows and uses that in determining the entire population, including what it doesn't know.

There is a swan analogy, that if all swans ever observed have always been white, then can we say all swans in existence are white?

Scientism would claim yes,  even if in fact there are black swans, just unrecorded. So Scientism can only base a complete reality on the small sample population of data that it has to work with.

Not everything is empirical as defined by the 5 senses, such as emotional feelings, which is not included as empirical evidence. Yet there is love and it is evident even though it is not an objective phenomena, it is self evident upon experience.

Experience being another crux to Scientism.


Edited by teknix (09/02/13 02:54 AM)


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OfflineCosmicDebris
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: teknix]
    #18789342 - 09/02/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No problem dude.  Life is a tough road ime and any thing that helps is appreciated.




Very true, for all the 7 billion+ dickheads living on this planet and all the crazy shit that happens, it's almost a blessing to interact with people who have some decency.

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

CosmicDebris said:
Thanks for the info and thoughtful response, I already feel welcome here! :smile:

Admittedly, I was more or less of the Scientistic mindset up until recently but I'm now disillusioned by it just like I was with fundie Christianity.  Do you happen to have anymore information on the unity of religions/God?  Also, I'd like to know more about logical and reasonable reasons to critique Scientism?  It seems as though I encounter more and more of the aggressive rationalist type even when I keep my thoughts to myself!





I think the golden rule covers most bases, such as don't kill, don't steal, respect each other, etc., . . . But the teachings about love is what is most applicable, and Science doesn't seem to deal with such moral questions or ethics that are subjective, so Scientism can't be the ultimate way of knowing everything, or all knowing isn't based on science necessarily, especially when you consider self-evident truth.

Science is concerned about the objective and tangible world, but that is not all there is, as scientism would claim. Scientism excludes other perspectives without compromise which only further divides us by claiming superiority, creating another dogma and fixed perspective unyielding  to other perspectives in which we have to deal with on a daily basis. It isn't realistic view imo.

It is good for determining how things do what they do, but it doesn't have any compassion or empathy that the world requires to achieve peace. Scientism often makes the mistake of considering the small sample space of what it knows and uses that in determining the entire population, including what it doesn't know.

There is a swan analogy, that if all swans ever observed have always been white, then can we say all swans in existence are white?

Scientism would claim yes,  even if in fact there are black swans, just unrecorded. So Scientism can only base a complete reality on the small sample population of data that it has to work with.

Not everything is empirical as defined by the 5 senses, such as emotional feelings, which is not included as empirical evidence. Yet there is love and it is evident even though it is not an objective phenomena, it is self evident upon experience.

Experience being another crux to Scientism.




I totally agree with that criticism of Materialism/Scientism, very well put.  I guess my liberal point-of-view is that all religions, philosophies and outlooks have grains of truth and helpful lessons to teach, and even Scientism seems like a natural, yet extreme, response to fundamentalist religion and watered-down, dogmatic "New Age" mentality.  However, with any extreme I think it just becomes a game that gets embarrassing.  While Science is a beautiful art, has many things to teach us now and in the future, it is not a meta-theory that all things can be gauged against.  I imagine there are a lot of people who will rise up in a fury about this and would probably try their best to refute me, but notice that another area of life that I find to be just as fruitful, the psychedelic experience, one that I hold very dear to my heart and my sense of reason, I never make the claim that the psychedelic experience is the be-all-end-all for all situations, all the time.  I think that would be just as absurd as saying that Science is the bearer of "truth" in all circumstances no matter what.

However, as neutral and open to any and all ideas I can possibly be, it seems that people like the friends I have are very sure of themselves and their position.  In fact, they'll make claims like "there is no such thing as the 'mysteries of the human mind' because Science has proven without a shadow of a doubt that the mind is in the brain and there's nothing special or unique about it" and while they'll constantly bash on even the most mildly "spiritually-leaning" person, they will constantly say things like "I have faith in Science and my Atheism and Science will discover all things in time."  Does this not sound like Scientism's own "God of the Gaps"?  Or am I just a prick?  Everytime I even have a light-hearted conversation leaning towards this subject I'm usually ganged up on and made to feel as though I'm stupid, which I know I'm not stupid...more confused than anything ha ha.

My experiences on psychedelics are ones that can be "classically" described as being religious, or mystical and I now view the claims of people like Bill Hicks on God and Mushrooms as being rooted in something very real.  However, the cultural attitude towards this is increasingly negative in today's age where the "I Fucking Love Science" crowd dominates any and all discussions.

I don't expect to necessarily find answers, but I like other people's informed opinions when it's not centered around snarky condescension.  :takingnotes:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: CosmicDebris]
    #18789482 - 09/02/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I am in the midst of science, and science is a methodology used to determine how shit works, to make it into something more, like another religion makes little sense to me. If science closed it's door to alternative possibilities there would be no QM,

Take Ignaz Semmelweis for instance, who discovered the utility of disinfectants, yet no one would listen to him because it went against what they had already thought to know and many people died because of their failure to actually consider the alternatives.

Quote:


Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time. The theory of diseases was highly influenced by ideas of an imbalance of the basic "four humours" in the body, a theory known as dyscrasia, for which the main treatment was bloodlettings. Medical texts at the time emphasized that each case of disease was unique, the result of a personal imbalance, and the main difficulty of the medical profession was to establish precisely each patient's unique situation, case by case.

In 1865 János Balassa wrote a document referring Semmelweis to a mental institution. On July 30 Ferdinand Ritter von Hebra lured him, under the pretense of visiting one of Hebra's "new Institutes", to a Viennese insane asylum located in Lazarettgasse (Landes-Irren-Anstalt in der Lazarettgasse).[7]:293 Semmelweis surmised what was happening and tried to leave. He was severely beaten by several guards, secured in a straitjacket and confined to a darkened cell. Apart from the straitjacket, treatments at the mental institution included dousing with cold water and administering castor oil, a laxative. He died after two weeks, on August 13, 1865, aged 47, from a gangrenous wound, possibly caused by the beating. The autopsy revealed extensive internal injuries, the cause of death pyemia—blood poisoning.[8]:76–78

Only belatedly did his observational evidence gain wide acceptance; more than twenty years later, Louis Pasteur's work offered a theoretical explanation for Semmelweis's observations—the germ theory of disease. As such, the Semmelweis story is often used in university courses with epistemology content, e.g. philosophy of science courses—demonstrating the virtues of empiricism or positivism and providing a historical account of which types of knowledge count as scientific (and thus accepted) knowledge, and which do not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis





Your friends/colleagues act as the fundamentalist did by burning the witches at the stake!



Science works with in probabilities or likley-hood, not certainty, so how can they be so certain of their assumptions? Only through stupidity and arrogance does a likely-hood or plausibility become an absolute fact.

Another thing is that as long as the poisson distribution finds events to have random values then there cannot be a pre-determined universe, where all is following accordingly.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: teknix]
    #18789689 - 09/02/13 12:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

When you turn Science into a dogmatic belief, you become a scientismist.


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OfflineWhoManBeing
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Re: Fresh Perspectives [Re: teknix]
    #18790303 - 09/02/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

these psychedelic experiences can be very introspective views of how one sees reality.  we all see reality, yet each eye color is as different as our perception.  we are all walking the walk, talking the talk, yet even if we were the same shoes the foot print will be one of a kind.  trying to connect to another print will never be exact.  understanding what we are presented with is the best thing to do.  a give and take.  breathe in, breathe out.  holding onto the image of the river at that very moment is as trying to grip a palm full of sand.  turn off your mind, relax and float downstream.  or, row, row, row your boat, gently down the steam.  merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.  dream BIG


--------------------
Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!!

Eye was thinking the other day...  ahh, thinking never done me no good.



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