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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
What if Jesus was really Satan?
    #18787855 - 09/02/13 12:31 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?

Isn't the first commandment that "Thou shalt not have any other god before me." ?

Then comes along Jesus, who is put before god to pray too and send your soul too, on behalf of God . . .

Seems like the Christians could have been duped by Satan.

Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.

Seems like it could have been the ultimate deception.

What do you think.

(Hypothetically of course)


--------------------
.6th and 7th sense theory
.Now is forever. .ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞTheﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞUnseenﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ is seenﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ by the blindﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ eye.ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ.When the inevitable time comes, go with your head held high,without regret or remorse, in your subconscious mind.
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ


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Invisibleazur
God of Fuck
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18787873 - 09/02/13 12:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I dig your style.


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!



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OfflineWScott
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: azur]
    #18787875 - 09/02/13 12:40 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

All concepts are Satan, God included. :rocketcrotch:


--------------------


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OfflineTheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: WScott]
    #18787930 - 09/02/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Im fairly certain that in some forms of Gnosticism Jehova is actually an evil deity that created this material plane of existence in order to trap our souls in matter.
Its why most of the original sects of gnosticism died out because they thought it was a mortal sin to procreate and trap another soul in matter.


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein
Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: TheGreenArrow] * 1
    #18787942 - 09/02/13 01:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Woah!, do you have links to that?

(kinda makes me think of pineal gland calcification)

:eek:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18788047 - 09/02/13 02:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Keep your theories to yourself dude, you're crampin my style


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Icelander]
    #18788173 - 09/02/13 03:21 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's what I do.

:heytherebadboy:


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Posts: 1,773
Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18788292 - 09/02/13 04:35 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The Nag Hammadi library is a group of gnostic texts found buried in a sealed container in Egypt in 1945.  If you want to know about the gnostic creation story the best one to check out is The Apcryphon of John.

Secret Book Of John


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
LIFE CAPS


Registered: 06/15/12
Posts: 5,318
Loc: Babylon Flag
Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: PocketLady]
    #18788328 - 09/02/13 05:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That ^ is purdy freaky..


--------------------


spread love
love is everything
2013 finds
medicinal psilocybin tincture drops
cannabis pics


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Offlineviktor
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: TheGreenArrow] * 1
    #18788706 - 09/02/13 08:35 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheGreenArrow said:
Its why most of the original sects of gnosticism died out because they thought it was a mortal sin to procreate and trap another soul in matter.




There's one for Icelander and me. I might answer that the next time I'm asked about my having kids.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


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Posts: 95,368
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18788815 - 09/02/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I certainly admire their compassion.  It's a rare thing in humans. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Posts: 11,953
Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: PocketLady]
    #18789742 - 09/02/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
The Nag Hammadi library is a group of gnostic texts found buried in a sealed container in Egypt in 1945.  If you want to know about the gnostic creation story the best one to check out is The Apcryphon of John.

Secret Book Of John




Nice!

This part kinda goes with the ownership inferring independence from nature thread, the Tao, and  buddhist teaching of enlightenment/nirvana (imo)

Quote:


Since everything exists within it
                        It does not exist within anything.
            Since it is not dependent on anything
                        It is eternal.

It is absolutely complete and so needs nothing.
It is utterly perfect
Light.

The One is without boundaries
            Nothing exists outside of it to border it
The One cannot be investigated
            Nothing exists apart from it to investigate it
The One cannot be measured
            Nothing exists external to it to measure it





It's along the same wavelength of thought I was using to try to explain how "Ownership infers an independence from nature" in philosophical and logical terms. But it doesn't mean it came from god to me does it, or I would be a prophet.

If I told you I spoke to god and he gave it to me, I would be put in a mental ward, even in our society that is based on Christianity which is based on such things!

It's hypocrisy!


Edited by teknix (09/02/13 12:54 PM)


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OfflineYogi1
Squatchin
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18789835 - 09/02/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?

Isn't the first commandment that "Thou shalt not have any other god before me." ?

Then comes along Jesus, who is put before god to pray too and send your soul too, on behalf of God . . .

Seems like the Christians could have been duped by Satan.

Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.

Seems like it could have been the ultimate deception.

What do you think.

(Hypothetically of course)




I think Jesus was probably a nice wise guy and the founders of Catholic canon are the devil. Frealz.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18789904 - 09/02/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The one cannot be owned
    Nothing exist separate to own it.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18790648 - 09/02/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It seems to me that people have been duped by theology. Jesus knew nothing about Christian theology. He prayed that his fate be averted, and he prayed to what the NT calls "the Father," (which is Abba in Hebrew, but Abwoon in Aramaic means "Comic Mother-Father," or "Cosmic Birther"). He didn't pray TO Christ, his mind was IN Christ to such an extent that he was considered to be THE Christ. Christ means 'anointed,' as with chrism, oil, whence the term. To anoint kings in Israel was a symbolic act, imputing the 'divine right of kingship,' which lends authority. Iesous however, denied any worldly kingship, but claimed to be a king of a spiritual kingdom, according to the story lines.

Praying in Iesous' name belongs to Pauline theology. For Paul, there was not yet a God mysticism. Only Iesous was Christ, which is to say, the 'Word' or 'Logos' predominated over the temporal mind of Iesous. Paul has a partially-realized eschatology, which means that the whole world will be changed at some future point in time according to him. That is why he told people not to marry, to live provisionally, because the end of the world was coming soon. He misunderstood the message entirely. Thomas understood a fully-realized eschatology, in which the kingdom of Heaven was present, but most people didn't realize it. Realization of Heaven as present, speaks of the Eternal Now, not of time. My point: If Paul, the so-called architect of Christianity misunderstood the essential message of Iesous, and wrongly believed the end of time was near, in a historical sense, then how are any blind-faith Christians going to know any better? The end of the world in a spiritual sense is about becoming aware of the Eternal Present, the kingdom of Heaven, while yet alive. It is about awareness of Eternity in the midst of worldliness.

Worldliness is all about space and time, about conquest and power, us and them. This divisiveness which religion has become is the Satan, the Adversary of God. Crusades, persecutions, pogroms, inquisitions, bigotry, hatred, war, genocide is pure evil. These were perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church, although Protestants had their share of witch and heretic burnings, persecution of Jews and Pagans and heretics. Eastern Orthodoxy went to war with Roman Catholicism over a theological interpretation called the Filioque*. Fucking absurd! Christ or Christ Consciousness has nothing to do with the evil that mankind has perpetrated IMO. It's about peace and love.

*Filioque |ˌfilΔ“ΛˆΕkwΔ“, -ˌkwā|
the word inserted in the Western version of the Nicene Creed to assert the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son as well as from the Father, which is not admitted by the Eastern Church. It was one of the central issues in the Great Schism of 1054.
ORIGIN Latin, literally β€˜and from the Son.’


--------------------
Ξ³Ξ½αΏΆΞΈΞΉ ΟƒΞ±α½Ο„ΟŒΞ½ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18790717 - 09/02/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Then do you think that Jesus was anything more than a man? Maybe at a higher caliber of intelligence than his peers at the time, but a man none-the-less?

Or what do you mean by "Christ or Christ Consciousness" ?

I don't think we have any real evidence that Jesus really ever existed, do we?

Because you said that: "Christ means 'anointed,' as with chrism, oil, whence the term. To anoint kings in Israel was a symbolic act, imputing the 'divine right of kingship,' which lends authority. Iesous however, denied any worldly kingship, but claimed to be a king of a spiritual kingdom, according to the story lines. "

But you also said that Jesus was in it, so how can he be in chrism, oil? And how is that relevant to anything? It seems like you are saying it means one thing and then using it in a completely different context, but I am probably missing something.

:confused:

(BTW, thanks for posting, I generally find your posts quite informative.)


Edited by teknix (09/02/13 04:43 PM)


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Offlineomegafaust
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18790805 - 09/02/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

What if jesus was but another deity, a true deity trying to spread its message and the god it refers to is itself and was just mistaken and tagged along with christianity? :shrug:

Or maybr he was just a dirty hippie and accidentally managed to become the most famous person in "history", aside from the beatles.


--------------------
The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself.  All you are is a thought.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18791471 - 09/02/13 07:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Then do you think that Jesus was anything more than a man? Maybe at a higher caliber of intelligence than his peers at the time, but a man none-the-less?

Or what do you mean by "Christ or Christ Consciousness" ?

I don't think we have any real evidence that Jesus really ever existed, do we?

Because you said that: "Christ means 'anointed,' as with chrism, oil, whence the term. To anoint kings in Israel was a symbolic act, imputing the 'divine right of kingship,' which lends authority. Iesous however, denied any worldly kingship, but claimed to be a king of a spiritual kingdom, according to the story lines. "

But you also said that Jesus was in it, so how can he be in chrism, oil? And how is that relevant to anything? It seems like you are saying it means one thing and then using it in a completely different context, but I am probably missing something.

:confused:

(BTW, thanks for posting, I generally find your posts quite informative.)




Christ means anointed by chrism. The act of anointing symbolized a sort of crowning, as a king, pouring oil on one's head. Christ consciousness is the biblical "mind of Christ," which believers hope to receive by grace. It is the consciousness or "mind" which is the Logos itself. In the history of thought, the Logos is the first emanation from the Unmanifested Godhead. In ancient Egypt, Ra or the later hybridized Amun-Ra might be the Unmanifest Godhead, and Thoth was the 'tongue' or 'word' of God, the Logos in Greek. Iesous the Christ was 'a man anointed by God' according to the 3 synoptic (same-view) gospels: Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Much later (90-120 CE) John's gospel wrote about "the Word" in the first few lines called the Prologue (Pro-Logos). In John's gospel, Iesous was not 'a man anointed by God,' but rather, 'God clothed in flesh.' This latter idea over-shadowed the earlier notion of a man anointed by God, and reeked of Greek mythology wherein it was common for God (Greek: Zeus, Latin: Deus) to impregnate a mortal woman and create a demigod- a god-man like Heracles, Dionysius, and others. This is a major reason why Jews did not accept this doctrine. The Jews had their own mythology, and in it, God never takes form, human or otherwise. Theophanies are angelic beings (Seraphim, Nephilim, Cherubim, etc.) - pillars of flame, burning bushes, etc. are not God.

Iesous was a man if he existed historically at all. The various birth, life, death, and resurrection motifs are lifted practically verbatim from the Egyptian Coffin and Pyramid texts. The person was written to be the focus of numerous prophesies in the Tenach (OT). Myth is very important in the psycho-history of humankind. We need myth, and they are still being produced by culture and the media. Myth derives from collective levels of the human unconscious, the Collective Unconscious, or Archetypal Mind. Iesous is a major embodiment of the central symbol of the Collective Unconscious - the higher Self. He represents generic man, and his dual nature speaks for every human being. We are all a composite of temporality and Eternity, although Iesous is depicted as being a unique specie of being, which would NOT be relevant to any of us. Iesous is the archetype, the paradigm for all of us. Most of us do not live up to the Truth of this and act in godly ways, but prefer to act like mere mammals, some more undeveloped and primitive than others. Some humanoids behave in truly reptilian ways, cold-hearted, blood-thirsty, and little more than instinctive creatures. Iesous the Christ symbolizes the epitome of fully human development IMO.


--------------------
Ξ³Ξ½αΏΆΞΈΞΉ ΟƒΞ±α½Ο„ΟŒΞ½ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineqman
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18791561 - 09/02/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Christians don't really know, they put their faith and moral judgment based on what God tells them, how do they know it's God? They don't, it's based on faith, or a guess. How do they know if their God is moral?  They don't, at the end of the day, they can't question the moral messages, because it's god.


Edited by qman (09/02/13 08:28 PM)


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Offlineyeah
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18791600 - 09/02/13 07:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

What if OP was a plastic bag

(Hypothetically of course)


Edited by c0sm0nautt (09/03/13 04:10 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: yeah] * 1
    #18791613 - 09/02/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

yeah said:
What if OP was a fag

(Hypothetically of course)




What if yeah got banned, would S&M lose anything?

(Literally of course)


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Offlineyeah
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18791719 - 09/02/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

brooo what if like we are all born high but like when u smoke weed u just become sober

OMG THATS SUCH A SPIRITUAL IDEA BRO

:highdog:


--------------------


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18791871 - 09/02/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Then do you think that Jesus was anything more than a man? Maybe at a higher caliber of intelligence than his peers at the time, but a man none-the-less?

Or what do you mean by "Christ or Christ Consciousness" ?

I don't think we have any real evidence that Jesus really ever existed, do we?

Because you said that: "Christ means 'anointed,' as with chrism, oil, whence the term. To anoint kings in Israel was a symbolic act, imputing the 'divine right of kingship,' which lends authority. Iesous however, denied any worldly kingship, but claimed to be a king of a spiritual kingdom, according to the story lines. "

But you also said that Jesus was in it, so how can he be in chrism, oil? And how is that relevant to anything? It seems like you are saying it means one thing and then using it in a completely different context, but I am probably missing something.

:confused:

(BTW, thanks for posting, I generally find your posts quite informative.)




Christ means anointed by chrism. The act of anointing symbolized a sort of crowning, as a king, pouring oil on one's head. Christ consciousness is the biblical "mind of Christ," which believers hope to receive by grace. It is the consciousness or "mind" which is the Logos itself. In the history of thought, the Logos is the first emanation from the Unmanifested Godhead. In ancient Egypt, Ra or the later hybridized Amun-Ra might be the Unmanifest Godhead, and Thoth was the 'tongue' or 'word' of God, the Logos in Greek. Iesous the Christ was 'a man anointed by God' according to the 3 synoptic (same-view) gospels: Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Much later (90-120 CE) John's gospel wrote about "the Word" in the first few lines called the Prologue (Pro-Logos). In John's gospel, Iesous was not 'a man anointed by God,' but rather, 'God clothed in flesh.' This latter idea over-shadowed the earlier notion of a man anointed by God, and reeked of Greek mythology wherein it was common for God (Greek: Zeus, Latin: Deus) to impregnate a mortal woman and create a demigod- a god-man like Heracles, Dionysius, and others. This is a major reason why Jews did not accept this doctrine. The Jews had their own mythology, and in it, God never takes form, human or otherwise. Theophanies are angelic beings (Seraphim, Nephilim, Cherubim, etc.) - pillars of flame, burning bushes, etc. are not God.

Iesous was a man if he existed historically at all. The various birth, life, death, and resurrection motifs are lifted practically verbatim from the Egyptian Coffin and Pyramid texts. The person was written to be the focus of numerous prophesies in the Tenach (OT). Myth is very important in the psycho-history of humankind. We need myth, and they are still being produced by culture and the media. Myth derives from collective levels of the human unconscious, the Collective Unconscious, or Archetypal Mind. Iesous is a major embodiment of the central symbol of the Collective Unconscious - the higher Self. He represents generic man, and his dual nature speaks for every human being. We are all a composite of temporality and Eternity, although Iesous is depicted as being a unique specie of being, which would NOT be relevant to any of us. Iesous is the archetype, the paradigm for all of us. Most of us do not live up to the Truth of this and act in godly ways, but prefer to act like mere mammals, some more undeveloped and primitive than others. Some humanoids behave in truly reptilian ways, cold-hearted, blood-thirsty, and little more than instinctive creatures. Iesous the Christ symbolizes the epitome of fully human development IMO.




:thumbup: Another well written and informative post.

So if these are just metaphors (which I think we agree), then is it the promise of an after-life that persuades people to take it so literally? Iesuos doesn't seem much different from Buddha or Lao Tzu or any other profit (man ahead of their time), nor is he that much different from Aristotle, and their immortality or the "spirit" of them remains today through history, however their followers generally die with very little if any remembrance by human kind, they live on through the beliefs they imparted on humanity through tradition for better or worse. So why would a man prefer to immortalize another rather than himself?

If you look at a spirit as the essence of their teachings then maybe there is some truth to a psuedo-immortality if their essence is still around today, but the immortality isn't for the followers, only for the creators of the following.

I'm thinking that if Iesuos was really a man, rather than a character in a fable, his idea's weren't really that original and were preceded by the likes of Confucious, Socrates, Aristotle, Lao Tzu, Mencius, Buddha, to name a few, (whom  live on today without the need for divinity in most cases) and that it is more than likely that he ripped them off, or that Constantine and his cohorts did and gave credit to an imaginary man.

What if any of their teachings are really original?

Maybe people simply want something silly to believe in to alleviate their death anxiety, for nothing more than comfort, truth be damned.

One thing that I am curious about is if there is any evidence of the biblical version of Moses liberating the slaves from Egypt, such as the changing of Gods to a god by Akhenaten, or is all that completely unrelated, and too without evidence or merit of such an event having occured?


Edited by teknix (09/02/13 08:39 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18792675 - 09/02/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I personally believe that much if not most of the Tenach is myth. Moses dies before he could enter the Promised Land, so who wrote the Five Books of Moses if Moses died and is written about?
The Tenach is about the continuation of the Hebrew people, not about immortality. Neither is the New Testament about immortality. The New Testament is about Eternal Life. Eternal Life is the life of Eternal God, and if "God is Love," then the only thing that exists in God is love, hence the commandment to love. All else perishes. Love, agapΓ©, is more like the Compassion that, along with Wisdom, characterizes the Adi Buddha, the Ultimate Reality in Vajrayana Buddhism (Nyingma school). Immortality, personal continuation, would prove to be Hell. Eternity is not a duration of endless time, it is the absence of time experienced as an ecstatic moment which does not diminish. Paradoxical this is, and language cannot covey it because language is a temporal reality. Our separate witness of Eternity merges with the Absolute Identity and we Realize that we have always been this familiar 'I AM.' Separate identity, fear, name and memory, ecstatically cease. The illusory veils that have kept us from Ultimate Reality, our true nature, vanish. The Real is Realized, the unreal thankfully perishes. No loss, all gain.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18792764 - 09/02/13 11:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So you are referring to Planck time (or a time scale even smaller), in which time has little if any relevance, which is interesting and I can't find a disagreement, but what about the changing of god's which seem to corroborate with the Christians or biblical story of Moses?

I don't find it to be at all paradoxical, for if there was a god controlling everything, he/she/it would have to move extremely fast, and almost without regard to time. (Especially if she/he/it were to keep any sort of consistency that has been revealed through the physics of the universe.)

Another question which is a bit of a tangeant is, have you ever gone by the pseudonym Vmarco?

(P.S. I think some people might find you intimidating to talk too considering how well articulated you are, maybe it isn't right of me to ask this of you but if you were to tone it down a bit I think people would be more apt to respond to your posts and you could get a lot more of your points across, which I find to be pretty valuable.)

Shit, I'm almost intimidated by you! But not quite :tongue:

Just a :heart: to :heart:, with no ill intention.

I really do appreciate you bro, you helped me a lot along my spiritual path. (and still do)


Edited by teknix (09/03/13 12:07 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18792889 - 09/03/13 12:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

But I think I concur, it isn't that Jesus was evil, it is that man used him for evil purposes.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18793038 - 09/03/13 02:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18794081 - 09/03/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So you are referring to Planck time (or a time scale even smaller), in which time has little if any relevance, which is interesting and I can't find a disagreement, but what about the changing of god's which seem to corroborate with the Christians or biblical story of Moses?

I don't find it to be at all paradoxical, for if there was a god controlling everything, he/she/it would have to move extremely fast, and almost without regard to time. (Especially if she/he/it were to keep any sort of consistency that has been revealed through the physics of the universe.)

Another question which is a bit of a tangeant is, have you ever gone by the pseudonym Vmarco?

(P.S. I think some people might find you intimidating to talk too considering how well articulated you are, maybe it isn't right of me to ask this of you but if you were to tone it down a bit I think people would be more apt to respond to your posts and you could get a lot more of your points across, which I find to be pretty valuable.)

Shit, I'm almost intimidated by you! But not quite :tongue:

Just a :heart: to :heart:, with no ill intention.

I really do appreciate you bro, you helped me a lot along my spiritual path. (and still do)




Never been Vmarco, always been MtG.

I appreciate your candor, and I have been accused of intimidation before, but it is not my intention, neither do I use long strings of multisyllabic words in an attempt to appear pedantic. Yesterday our female renter came over with her monthly rent. She was a student counselee of mine when she was 13, now she is 22, 5'10", beautiful, voluptuous Dominican. In stiletto heels she's 6'3" tall. She is one of the prettiest, and sweetest young females I've ever known. I used to counsel boys who were love-sick about her in middle school. :lol: She told us that she intimidates men and women alike, but I know her. It's her appearance, not her intention. Simiarly, I hold academic degrees in philosophy, theology, and a PhD in human development & clinical psychology. I'm 60 years old and have been an adjunct professor in two universities. Perhaps you need to pick up a dictionary from time-to-time. I certainly need to do that and I don't think twice about doing so. I want to know and understand others, and I have no time to feel stupid because I already KNOW I'm stupid in more fields than I can name. Even in the fields in which I excel, my FB buddy Tim Freke is 10 years younger than me and he has published 30 books. Aside from my doctoral dissertation, I'm still working on finishing one book! It's all relative my man.

Thanks for the complimentary words. I have set out to help others as the horizontal corollary to the vertical insights I have been blessed with.

I don't understand the beginning or your post. Planck time still operates within physical parameters that enjoin gravity, the speed of light in vacua, etc. The Eternal Present is atemporal. It is not a theoretical construct. It partakes of no physics but is ontologically prior to physics, which is to say, metaphysical. Physics occurred at 10 to the -43 seconds ago, IN newly created time. The Eternal Present is atemporal. It exists Eternally and is Present to human experience. Peoples of the Book call it God. Buddhists call it Emptiness since it is unmanifested. Aristotle called it the "Unmoved Mover." There is no change of this Absolute, there is only a change in human concepts about it. The ancient Hebrew's first had a local mountain deity which, in the course of humanity's own development, began to be conceived of as the Creator of the entire universe (even though they had no idea of the scope of their universe). Read Harold Bloom's Jesus and Yahweh if you are interested in a comparison between the Hebrew Yahweh and the Father of the New Testament. The concepts are very different despite the centuries old attempt to turn the capricious and genocidal deity into a benign father.



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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18796030 - 09/03/13 07:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The "john" who wrote the passages in that link is clearly not the same as "john the baptist" biblical author


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18796062 - 09/03/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
The "john" who wrote the passages in that link is clearly not the same as "john the baptist" biblical author




I was thinking it was being insinuated as well?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18796470 - 09/03/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
The "john" who wrote the passages in that link is clearly not the same as "john the baptist" biblical author




John the Baptist was not a biblical author. In fact none of the gospel authors put their names on the gospels that are known as Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John. There was no punctuation, or capitalization either. The names were later insertions.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18797966 - 09/04/13 04:21 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Whoever it was, the passages in the link are nonsensical and fabricated. Clearly


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18798271 - 09/04/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Just like most of the bible was, :o


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18798926 - 09/04/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
Whoever it was, the passages in the link are nonsensical and fabricated. Clearly




Perhaps you are simply unfamiliar with the language and value of myth. Everyone is informed by some mythic material, even if one is unconscious of it.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18799346 - 09/04/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Just like most of the bible was, :o




The Bible is not a historical document, even though historical events are written about. Often, there are many inconsistencies. However, biblical writings are midrash, by-and-large, and if one does not know what midrash is, then one will not understand much of what is intelligible. The canonical Bible draws from sources that are over a thousand years apart. The Hebrew people changed profoundly over that span, and those changes are reflected in the nature of the midrashic stories - how God was being conceptualized and illustrated through spiritual stories that were never intended by ancient minds to be read as accurate journalism.

Frankly, I don't get what people gripe about with regard to biblical writings. Ancient forms of writing need to be explained to post-modern people or else they just don't understand why, for whom, when, and under what actual historical circumstances certain books were written. Only a total rube reads the Bible as literal history.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18800978 - 09/04/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think the problem with it is that if you need a priest or a guy with a Ph.D to interpret it correctly there's little value to most people in it. Anything you claim about the truth of the Bible can be contradicted by someone else, and there's no way of knowing which of the tens of thousands of interpretations are correct or even valuable.

c.f. "biblical writings are midrash, by-and-large, and if one does not know what midrash is, then one will not understand much of what is intelligible."

What percentage of people do you reckon knows what midrash is? I don't think I've ever heard the term before today. If what you say is true and that one does not understand much of the bible without knowing then one must rely on someone else's interpretation, which usually means someone else's agenda.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18801596 - 09/04/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Just like most of the bible was, :o




The Bible is not a historical document, even though historical events are written about. Often, there are many inconsistencies. However, biblical writings are midrash, by-and-large, and if one does not know what midrash is, then one will not understand much of what is intelligible. The canonical Bible draws from sources that are over a thousand years apart. The Hebrew people changed profoundly over that span, and those changes are reflected in the nature of the midrashic stories - how God was being conceptualized and illustrated through spiritual stories that were never intended by ancient minds to be read as accurate journalism.

Frankly, I don't get what people gripe about with regard to biblical writings. Ancient forms of writing need to be explained to post-modern people or else they just don't understand why, for whom, when, and under what actual historical circumstances certain books were written. Only a total rube reads the Bible as literal history.




Well, you still haven't answered about Akhenaten switching gods and the seeming corroboration with the story of Moses.

The bible also seems to be written as if it was a historical document. Esp. when the lineages are included. I don't take it literally but I see how some might be inclined to.

I don't take it literal because for one I know about science and the contradictions a literal interpretation poses, I also know that there are other cultures who had very similar stories that came before the bible, and that the Romans loved their deities and often used them to tell moral truths, and even for entertainment purposes, and that the Romans were in charge when the bible was put together. Also that their culture would have influence on what was put in and how it was put in.


Edited by teknix (09/04/13 11:45 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18801859 - 09/05/13 02:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?

Isn't the first commandment that "Thou shalt not have any other god before me." ?

Then comes along Jesus, who is put before god to pray too and send your soul too, on behalf of God . . .

Seems like the Christians could have been duped by Satan.

Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.

Seems like it could have been the ultimate deception.

What do you think.

(Hypothetically of course)




Its funny/sad that you do now have Christians say--when you point out to them some of the vil actions caused by Christian belief, like the Inquisition, wars, etc--they'll say, oh that isn't Christianity, it is Satan masquerading as Christ, and they will also mean infiltrating the Catholic Church and even being that church etc etc

So then i'd say, so who ARE the original Christians then? As fas as I am aware it was the Essenes. But when you look at their belief it was dualistic, and they believed there was a War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness.

So stop right there screeeeeeeeeeeeeeetchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

THAT is the roots of a duality that can grow into 'Jesus ('all goody woody') versus Satan' ('one all-bad fuker'). OF a thousand cartoons with a person who got an angel on one shoulder telling him what to do and a devil on the other shoulder telling him what to do which  is the oppo-site of the other and vice verse. Duality.

Psychological dissociation from you shadow-side, if you will excuse my psychobabble for moment.

Isn't THAT a big deep root cause of the voracious savagery against women etc in the religious Inquisition where they associate what they deny of themselves onto those they fear?

So what about 'Satanists' who seem to embrace 'the shadow'? I think that they keep to the same duality. You read their religion and it is the same worldview as their antagonist. Just the inverse is all


Edited by zzripz (09/05/13 02:25 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: GoldenArrow]
    #18801930 - 09/05/13 03:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GoldenArrow said:
:threadmonitor:




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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: zzripz]
    #18802104 - 09/05/13 04:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?

Isn't the first commandment that "Thou shalt not have any other god before me." ?

Then comes along Jesus, who is put before god to pray too and send your soul too, on behalf of God . . .

Seems like the Christians could have been duped by Satan.

Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.

Seems like it could have been the ultimate deception.

What do you think.

(Hypothetically of course)




Its funny/sad that you do now have Christians say--when you point out to them some of the vil actions caused by Christian belief, like the Inquisition, wars, etc--they'll say, oh that isn't Christianity, it is Satan masquerading as Christ, and they will also mean infiltrating the Catholic Church and even being that church etc etc

So then i'd say, so who ARE the original Christians then? As fas as I am aware it was the Essenes. But when you look at their belief it was dualistic, and they believed there was a War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness.

So stop right there screeeeeeeeeeeeeeetchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

THAT is the roots of a duality that can grow into 'Jesus ('all goody woody') versus Satan' ('one all-bad fuker'). OF a thousand cartoons with a person who got an angel on one shoulder telling him what to do and a devil on the other shoulder telling him what to do which  is the oppo-site of the other and vice verse. Duality.

Psychological dissociation from you shadow-side, if you will excuse my psychobabble for moment.

Isn't THAT a big deep root cause of the voracious savagery against women etc in the religious Inquisition where they associate what they deny of themselves onto those they fear?

So what about 'Satanists' who seem to embrace 'the shadow'? I think that they keep to the same duality. You read their religion and it is the same worldview as their antagonist. Just the inverse is all




You wanna know what's even more sad? Most of my family is Christian and I am seemingly helpless to convince them otherwise.

Except my mom, she reads the bible but doesn't think of Jesus as God, so I'm happy about that.

I think it was the very argument in the op that got her thinking.

So maybe it will get others thinking.


Edited by teknix (09/05/13 05:38 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: zzripz]
    #18802159 - 09/05/13 05:38 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Oops, double post.

I think after a certain age, people begin to adamantly resist change and what they believe they will continue to believe, and that is part of the reason why the world is in such a sad state today.


Edited by teknix (09/05/13 07:25 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18802877 - 09/05/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
I think the problem with it is that if you need a priest or a guy with a Ph.D to interpret it correctly there's little value to most people in it. Anything you claim about the truth of the Bible can be contradicted by someone else, and there's no way of knowing which of the tens of thousands of interpretations are correct or even valuable.

c.f. "biblical writings are midrash, by-and-large, and if one does not know what midrash is, then one will not understand much of what is intelligible."

What percentage of people do you reckon knows what midrash is? I don't think I've ever heard the term before today. If what you say is true and that one does not understand much of the bible without knowing then one must rely on someone else's interpretation, which usually means someone else's agenda.




How much of what YOU know is truly self-taught? I was taught the alphabet, numbers, colors, body parts, and a multitude of basic categories by my parents before I ever hit kindergarten. Ms. Metzger, my first grade teacher, taught me how to read from 'Dick and Jane' books. My dad taught me how to solder, use an electric drill, and other practical skills. My 3rd grade friend Sam, who became a Ph.D. genetic engineer at Cornell, taught me how to do long division because Mrs. Kent was a piss-poor 3rd grade teacher. Sam taught me about LASERS in the 5th grade, shortly after they were invented because his dad, an engineer, received Scientific American Magazine. I became the first kid to get a working LASER in 1969, way before you could buy a LASER cat toy for $3. I could flesh this out all day, through high school, college, seminary, grad school, and after, like being taught how to scuba dive, by experts, jujitsu, judo, etc.

I am also self-taught, but I still took myself to seminary to be instructed by others, yet I had to wade through the opinions of everyone to arrive at my own take on things like the Bible. After seminary, the long Jungian analysis I put myself through, and that school of psychology, gave me insights into biblical lore from a modern perspective. So yeah, I do have a Masters degree in Theological Studies and a Ph.D. in Developmental/Clinical Psychology, but I could teach anyone who trusted my experience and and who had an open mind, what value lies in biblical and extra-biblical writings. Those include the OT Pseudepigrapha, the NT Apocrypha, and the Nag Hammadi library - all excluded from the canonical Bible because they did not support the political agenda of dependence on church and priesthood. Now, if everyday mundane existence and survival preoccupy a person's mind, they simply won't make time to learn about such things, even from someone else who done all the legwork for them.

BTW, the great majority of Christians that I have met in my life have been utterly ignorant of ancient Judaism. Their versions of Iesous and Christianity are so shallow, so utterly 'Gentilized,' that it is impossible to understand that the bulk of the NT writings all relate to the Jewish liturgical calendar. I write this today, on 5774, Rosh Hashana, the New Year of the Jewish calendar. If you hadn't registered this before you read it, it is because you yourself are not Jewish, but more importantly, the entire gospel accounts all speak to innumerable references to ancient Judaism. The average Christian doesn't know dick about biblical Christianity because they know even less about Judaism. They believe they know only what they think is relevant to themselves. For example, Son of God is a title that referred to ALL kings in the Tenach (OT), not to a Greek demigod born of God (Greek: Zeus, Latin: Deus) and a mortal virgin. The Christian who understands their Messiah that way, doesn't understand the way any of it was implied by the actual Jewish sect of The Way, who eventually were called Christians. I don't blame people for rejecting the Bible because at the superficial, culturally whitewashed way it is read, it IS ridiculous. Read literally, I'd toss it out too! :lol: Like everything else in life, the truth lies in the depths, not the surface appearances. Shallow people see everything with shallow eyes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18802899 - 09/05/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I recently saw this video---jsut let me try find it--where he is trying to show that Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of The Last  shows when superimposed Jesus looking 'Satan'-like:

the satanic fuckers at ''tube'' which has become ADVERT CORPS TUBE have fucked about with my channel without my say so and have seemingly got rid of all my favourited videos, so I cannot find it!!!


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18804781 - 09/05/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

viktor said:
I think the problem with it is that if you need a priest or a guy with a Ph.D to interpret it correctly there's little value to most people in it. Anything you claim about the truth of the Bible can be contradicted by someone else, and there's no way of knowing which of the tens of thousands of interpretations are correct or even valuable.

c.f. "biblical writings are midrash, by-and-large, and if one does not know what midrash is, then one will not understand much of what is intelligible."

What percentage of people do you reckon knows what midrash is? I don't think I've ever heard the term before today. If what you say is true and that one does not understand much of the bible without knowing then one must rely on someone else's interpretation, which usually means someone else's agenda.




How much of what YOU know is truly self-taught? I was taught the alphabet, numbers, colors, body parts, and a multitude of basic categories by my parents before I ever hit kindergarten. Ms. Metzger, my first grade teacher, taught me how to read from 'Dick and Jane' books. My dad taught me how to solder, use an electric drill, and other practical skills. My 3rd grade friend Sam, who became a Ph.D. genetic engineer at Cornell, taught me how to do long division because Mrs. Kent was a piss-poor 3rd grade teacher. Sam taught me about LASERS in the 5th grade, shortly after they were invented because his dad, an engineer, received Scientific American Magazine. I became the first kid to get a working LASER in 1969, way before you could buy a LASER cat toy for $3. I could flesh this out all day, through high school, college, seminary, grad school, and after, like being taught how to scuba dive, by experts, jujitsu, judo, etc.

I am also self-taught, but I still took myself to seminary to be instructed by others, yet I had to wade through the opinions of everyone to arrive at my own take on things like the Bible. After seminary, the long Jungian analysis I put myself through, and that school of psychology, gave me insights into biblical lore from a modern perspective. So yeah, I do have a Masters degree in Theological Studies and a Ph.D. in Developmental/Clinical Psychology, but I could teach anyone who trusted my experience and and who had an open mind, what value lies in biblical and extra-biblical writings. Those include the OT Pseudepigrapha, the NT Apocrypha, and the Nag Hammadi library - all excluded from the canonical Bible because they did not support the political agenda of dependence on church and priesthood. Now, if everyday mundane existence and survival preoccupy a person's mind, they simply won't make time to learn about such things, even from someone else who done all the legwork for them.

BTW, the great majority of Christians that I have met in my life have been utterly ignorant of ancient Judaism. Their versions of Iesous and Christianity are so shallow, so utterly 'Gentilized,' that it is impossible to understand that the bulk of the NT writings all relate to the Jewish liturgical calendar. I write this today, on 5774, Rosh Hashana, the New Year of the Jewish calendar. If you hadn't registered this before you read it, it is because you yourself are not Jewish, but more importantly, the entire gospel accounts all speak to innumerable references to ancient Judaism. The average Christian doesn't know dick about biblical Christianity because they know even less about Judaism. They believe they know only what they think is relevant to themselves. For example, Son of God is a title that referred to ALL kings in the Tenach (OT), not to a Greek demigod born of God (Greek: Zeus, Latin: Deus) and a mortal virgin. The Christian who understands their Messiah that way, doesn't understand the way any of it was implied by the actual Jewish sect of The Way, who eventually were called Christians. I don't blame people for rejecting the Bible because at the superficial, culturally whitewashed way it is read, it IS ridiculous. Read literally, I'd toss it out too! :lol: Like everything else in life, the truth lies in the depths, not the surface appearances. Shallow people see everything with shallow eyes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash





Have you read the Bhagavad gita (as it is) ?

I just got it today from a lady on campus, she was telling me how it was the first teachings in reference to metta the phenomena rather than the belief.

She had me at the point, I had to get it.

If you have read it what was your take?

I think these are the earliest writing we have regarding internal alchemy.

I've been trying to figure it out for quite a while and it just sort of fell into my lap when I was least expecting it.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18805162 - 09/05/13 09:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I spent a whole summer reading it and meditating. Must have been summer of '74 or '75. Sometimes the Krishnas would even give you one for free if they thought you had potential. It's been a long time, but basically, the path of Bhakti Yoga is seen to be superior to other Yogas. I once taught a classmate in grad school exactly what to say to proselytizing Hare Krishnas to cut them off in mid-sentence ("I contemplate the plenary expansion of Vishnu in the lotus of the heart"). In fact, I was drawn to the Yogas of "the Impersonalist," who does exactly that, contemplating the Presence of God in the Heart Center, or the mantra OM. Krishna as "the Supreme Personality of the Godhead," was a statement of belief that had immediate cultural ramifications for those who touted that philosophy, namely communal living, renunciation of personal possessions to the cult, etc.

I have always been a solitary practitioner of whatever discipline I was investigating, and I had no interest in shaving my head, wearing saffron, and dancing in the streets. But, the book with its commentaries was a classic Yoga text, and I knew that there was truth in its understanding of spiritual matters, even though my temperament does not predispose me to Bhakti. Even later, when I entered a Methodist seminary, I remained a solitary contemplative and assiduously avoided common worship. In my two years there, one of the students was dispatched to find me on one occasion in order to read scriptures on the pulpit during morning services that I never attended. Yet, in pleasant weather, I could be found on the lawn of Seminary Hall, sitting in lotus or half-lotus posture in solitary contemplation.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18805496 - 09/05/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, we were talking about non-clinging love and the biased attachments people tie to their love, and the ramifications of such clinging. She said that there is no charge for the book, but let me know the production costs and retail costs, I ended up giving her $10 for it anyways, because I only had a 10 and a couple of 1's. I felt it was worth it.

She was also somewhat versed in Buddhism which was bit surprising, but she knew how to correlate the teachings so I think they are probably pretty similar.

I've always been pretty independent as well, it seems like it is easier to sort things out that way.

I also told her I was taking biology to try and objectify the phenomena, and then she game me something about Mantras, which I told her they have never really been of much benefit to me, and she told me to take it anyway, lol.

I wonder if she knows would know people that can control the release of oxytocin, or call down heavenly qi, or bliss, or what do the Krishnas call it?


Edited by teknix (09/05/13 10:31 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18805725 - 09/05/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Samadhi. With the Hindus it's always samadhi.  Or ananda, bliss. Bliss-Permeated Mother, Sat Chit Ananda. I suppose one could see these conditions as Ram Dass' 'love as a state of being,' but oftentimes it seem like getting lost in a vertical ascent to Oneness neglects the horizontal dimension of "love your neighbor as yourself."  The Buddhist metta (loving-kindness), and karuna (compassion), speak more to the human domain. I understand rather late in life that the samadhis or jhanas in Buddhism need to be surpassed for simple clarity. When I was young, I thought it was all about being in bliss. For some time now, I just want to Be, as Eckhart Tolle expresses it. I enjoy the energetic, pain-free "pain body," and the experience of being integrated on all levels, comfortable in my skin, when I take mushrooms, as well as the inner visuals, but it's no longer the heady feeling that draws me. I gave up cannabis decades ago. I don't want stoned, or sleepy feelings. I want tranquil clarity, pristine quiescent awareness. The emotional ecstasis of the Bhakta always seemed like tent revivalist stuff. :shrug:


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18805768 - 09/05/13 11:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I'm a radical sorcerer, I wouldn't fit in with many organised belief systems, ehehe.

I'm not talking about the heart bliss, I'm talking about the bliss that permeates your body in waves from above the crown.

It's visible through goosebumps and hairs standing up when I do it. It is sort of a numb feeling but extremely blissful.

I don't really see visible evidence of the heart energy, unless you consider them one and the same.

Like prana . . . But not air that you breath with your lungs, you breath it in with your brain.

(You're right, it is ananda.)


Edited by teknix (09/05/13 11:38 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18805837 - 09/05/13 11:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So I guess it is Savikalpa Samadhi. But what does Asamprajnata mean?



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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18806435 - 09/06/13 07:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Asamprajnata Samadhi is essentially Patanjali's term for Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

Samprajnata Samadhi conscious samadhi. The mind remains concentrated (ekagra) on the object of meditation, therefore the consciousness of the object of meditation persists. Mental modifications arise only in respect of this object of meditation.
This state is of four kinds:
Savitarka: the Chitta is concentrated upon a gross object of meditation such as a flame of a lamp, the tip of the nose, or the image of a deity.
Savichara: the Chitta is concentrated upon a subtle object of meditation, such as the tanmatras
Sananda: the Chitta is concentrated upon a still subtler object of meditation, like the senses.
Sasmita: the Chitta is concentrated upon the ego-substance with which the self is generally identified.
Asamprajnata Samadhi superconscious. The Chitta and the object of meditation are fused together. The consciousness of the object of meditation is transcended. All mental modifications are checked (niruddha), although latent impressions may continue.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali

No offense, but it is doubtful in the extreme that you are living in Sahaj Samadhi, as Guru Neem Karolie Baba allegedly was. :shrug: This is the 'natural state' of non-duality and full Self-Realization, where, unlike the Nirvikalpa/Asamprajnata conditions, there is no immobility, but one lives and moves in the world simultaneously with uninterrupted awakened awareness. I do not think that you have any idea how rare and exalted a condition this is. It constellates siddhis and synchronicities around the being. There is a profound absence of egoic mind, desires that pertain to to the average human being, and it seems unlikely that one would be on a computer on a forum discussing these things.

"Radical sorcerer?" Sorcery only has a positive spin in the fictional CasteΓ±eda books, or from the late Pablo Amaringo the Ayahuascero, whom I once met. In European traditions it almost always has a pejorative, low magick, thaumaturgical meaning (versus a high magick, theurgical meaning). And contrary to the claims of Aleister Crowley, one does not simultaneously embody low desires and high samadhis in the same personage. That's rather 'centauric!'


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Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/06/13 07:53 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18806442 - 09/06/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

as Guru Neem Karolie Baba was.

No offense but nobody knows if he was either. :shrug:


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Icelander]
    #18806465 - 09/06/13 08:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
as Guru Neem Karolie Baba was.

No offense but nobody knows if he was either. :shrug:




Which is why I qualified it with "allegedly." If the reports were accurate, something profoundly cosmic constellated about the man. I gave my late father the book Miracle of Love, stories about Neem Karolie, and his response was that they were "Bubba Meises," Yiddish for 'grandmother tales.' I don't think that synchronicity, miracle, bilocation, mental telepathy and other Psi functions were part of his world view. :shrug:


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18806616 - 09/06/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

What if a lot of these similar stories & myth are derived from one source of confusion upon one civilization at one time.


& It has evolved into this confusion.

Research serpent worship, the very first kind of worship on this planet & towards anthropromorfic scaly reptilian like god/beings no less.


What is mankind?

How were we formed & made?

In who or what's image were we formed?


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Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...



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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18806623 - 09/06/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
as Guru Neem Karolie Baba was.

No offense but nobody knows if he was either. :shrug:




Which is why I qualified it with "allegedly." If the reports were accurate, something profoundly cosmic constellated about the man. I gave my late father the book Miracle of Love, stories about Neem Karolie, and his response was that they were "Bubba Meises," Yiddish for 'grandmother tales.' I don't think that synchronicity, miracle, bilocation, mental telepathy and other Psi functions were part of his world view. :shrug:





Sorry I missed that part. My bad. :blush:


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18806877 - 09/06/13 10:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?




Likewsie, why would he be seen as a "re-route" rather than a manifestation of a proxy which serves as a relatable stepping stone for mankind to revelation?

Quote:

teknix said:
Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.




Perhaps those events are a result of egos retaliating by default in response to the notion that the self is not the creator of the self. 

Given that "death" (in the sense of entirely ceasing to exist) isn't a valid concept within the religion itself, those events wouldn't been regarded as anything negatively significant anyways beyond that of being a learning tool within a model that encompasses eternal life.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18807132 - 09/06/13 11:50 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Asamprajnata Samadhi is essentially Patanjali's term for Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

Samprajnata Samadhi conscious samadhi. The mind remains concentrated (ekagra) on the object of meditation, therefore the consciousness of the object of meditation persists. Mental modifications arise only in respect of this object of meditation.
This state is of four kinds:
Savitarka: the Chitta is concentrated upon a gross object of meditation such as a flame of a lamp, the tip of the nose, or the image of a deity.
Savichara: the Chitta is concentrated upon a subtle object of meditation, such as the tanmatras
Sananda: the Chitta is concentrated upon a still subtler object of meditation, like the senses.
Sasmita: the Chitta is concentrated upon the ego-substance with which the self is generally identified.
Asamprajnata Samadhi superconscious. The Chitta and the object of meditation are fused together. The consciousness of the object of meditation is transcended. All mental modifications are checked (niruddha), although latent impressions may continue.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali

No offense, but it is doubtful in the extreme that you are living in Sahaj Samadhi, as Guru Neem Karolie Baba allegedly was. :shrug: This is the 'natural state' of non-duality and full Self-Realization, where, unlike the Nirvikalpa/Asamprajnata conditions, there is no immobility, but one lives and moves in the world simultaneously with uninterrupted awakened awareness. I do not think that you have any idea how rare and exalted a condition this is. It constellates siddhis and synchronicities around the being. There is a profound absence of egoic mind, desires that pertain to to the average human being, and it seems unlikely that one would be on a computer on a forum discussing these things.

"Radical sorcerer?" Sorcery only has a positive spin in the fictional CasteΓ±eda books, or from the late Pablo Amaringo the Ayahuascero, whom I once met. In European traditions it almost always has a pejorative, low magick, thaumaturgical meaning (versus a high magick, theurgical meaning). And contrary to the claims of Aleister Crowley, one does not simultaneously embody low desires and high samadhis in the same personage. That's rather 'centauric!'




Lol, that would be extremely egotistical for me to think that. I don't think that I even know what Sahaj Samadhi is, and you didn't define it above.

I think that according to the above definitions the current state of progression would be somewhere in around Sananda but the sense is of feeling internally.

Me being a radical sorcerer is a joke and an analogy, sorcerers are endowed with natural ability, it's in the roots of their being to progress rapidly where willpower is concerned. I say that because most of the spiritual progress was made through exploration, rather than using beliefs or any specific system, I'm interested in the systems for their definitions and descriptions of personal experience.( I don't really think of myself as any label other than awareness)

I got to talk to the Krishnas more today after class, and I guess only their master or guru experiences ananda, so I find that kinda disappointing and to me it says little for their practice.

You're right, I don't have any idea how rare of a condition it is, how could I?


Edited by teknix (09/06/13 12:01 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18807205 - 09/06/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?




Likewsie, why would he be seen as a "re-route" rather than a manifestation of a proxy which serves as a relatable stepping stone for mankind to revelation?






Because as a Christian you have to always consider Satan and his agenda.
Are you saying it's not even possible that they could have been duped? It is said that we are technologically 1000 years behind were we would be, had the Dark Ages never happened in the name of a Deified Prophet made into a God. How can you take what they say seriously after that? So if we consider the greatest evil's are caused by Satan and the Dark Ages are one of the greatest evil's then what are we left with?

Quote:


Quote:

teknix said:
Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.




Perhaps those events are a result of egos retaliating by default in response to the notion that the self is not the creator of the self. 

Given that "death" (in the sense of entirely ceasing to exist) isn't a valid concept within the religion itself, those events wouldn't been regarded as anything negatively significant anyways beyond that of being a learning tool within a model that encompasses eternal life.




So then how much can we trust what they wrote? They were controlling the present for a very long time, which meant they was also controlling the past and future.


Edited by teknix (09/06/13 12:11 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18807287 - 09/06/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Your theory was logical, but Christians declare by default that they believe Jesus is the son of God which represents a fundamental principle of the belief.

Any alternative belief would surely negate a person being Christian?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18807382 - 09/06/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm interested in the systems for their definitions and descriptions of personal experience.( I don't really think of myself as any label other than awareness)


Well, we're on the same page, paragraph and sentence with this.

Didn't get the humor, sorry, :blush: because I've been on this forum since '99, and there have been many seriously made claims by people. Even now, there are delusional individuals, OCD religious zealots, and others who insist that their personal take on Reality is the one and only version. Fanaticism is clearly a pathological condition, since Ultimate Reality is and will always remain, Mystery. It is a sick egoic mind that claims to be in possession of the Truth, a God-complex. By-and-large (as my high school sociology teacher used to say), most people here are fairly open-minded, and take everything with a grain-of-salt.

After Swami Prahupada died, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISCON) underwent radically weird changes, even to the point of Krishnas getting busted hoarding assault weapons! Even more recently, you read stuff like this, which any current Krishna will minimize:  http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/hare-krishna-priest-gets-3year-term-in-visa-fraud-case-hm8fvjk-187964501.html
These seem fanciful, but who knows? I never heard of a stowaway on a space shuttle: http://nehke.blogspot.com ; "Curioser, and curioser..."


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Ξ³Ξ½αΏΆΞΈΞΉ ΟƒΞ±α½Ο„ΟŒΞ½ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18807426 - 09/06/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

OCD religious zelots and Fivepointer

  Any resemblance my be incidental.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Icelander]
    #18807733 - 09/06/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
OCD religious zelots and Fivepointer

  Any resemblance my be incidental.




I wouldn't know, he's on my ignore list. I'm trying to avoid getting banned again, and some people get me going. :shrug:


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18808632 - 09/06/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
OCD religious zelots and Fivepointer

  Any resemblance my be incidental.




I wouldn't know, he's on my ignore list. I'm trying to avoid getting banned again, and some people get me going. :shrug:



:hugitout:

It could be a good thing pointing towards our personal weaknesses.

Sarcasm doesn't transfer well over the net, I should probably avoid using it or identify it better.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18808646 - 09/06/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Your theory was logical, but Christians declare by default that they believe Jesus is the son of God which represents a fundamental principle of the belief.

Any alternative belief would surely negate a person being Christian?




Think about the holy trinity; the father, the son, the holy spirit.

Quote:



The doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons or hypostases:[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity





No, it wasn't a logical argument, it IS a logical argument.

Check your understanding, or correct mine.


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OfflineAlmond Flour
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18808660 - 09/06/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?

Isn't the first commandment that "Thou shalt not have any other god before me." ?

Then comes along Jesus, who is put before god to pray too and send your soul too, on behalf of God . . .

Seems like the Christians could have been duped by Satan.

Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.

Seems like it could have been the ultimate deception.

What do you think.

(Hypothetically of course)




Seems like someone who is hell bent on trying to convince himself Christianity is false when hes a scared little boy :smirk:

Dont give me that death toll crap Christianity has on its head. Every civilization on EARTH has done some downright twisted and sick stuff. Its not a book on morals people. Its "The Bible" :bored: and the sooner you realize this the sooner you can stop obsessing in your heads over and over trying to trick yourself into a lie.


--------------------
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Almond Flour]
    #18808668 - 09/06/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Rofl, funny man.

I don't deny god, I deny Christianity as literal and that Jesus was god.

(P.S. your mannerisms and way of communicating do little to aid your argument.)

:lol:

Jesus was one of the lesser prophets or enlightened beings this planet have encountered and documented, and he is only lesser because the Christian made him lesser imo.


Your idea of Jesus and/or the Christian idea of Jesus is Satanic or of Satan (if there is such a being, I mean it metaphorically) and very cultish because it condones division and an us verse them mentality. imo.

I don't think that the love he was preaching was intended at all to be of the biased and clinging sort that many people practice. (Such as marriage seems to condone, in the name of god, but definitely not my god, more like Satan)


Edited by teknix (09/06/13 06:45 PM)


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OfflineHierophant
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18808894 - 09/06/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeshua (Jesus) was and is misunderstood by the majority of people. His teachings and the signifigence of his life and message have been completely distorted by the church, if you want to look for Satan in Christianity look no further than the religious institution itself not at the man it was based on some 300 years after his supposed life. Yeshua never claimed to be God, he identified completely with his inherent divinity and attempted to teach others how to connect with their own divinity.

And speaking of the Gnostic gospels, read the Gospel of Toma (Thomas).

Yeshua said,
If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will be your salvation.
If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you

Also from the gospel:

Yeshua asks his disciples,
Make a comparison of me and tell me who I am like.

Shimon Kefa said to him,
You are like a righteous angel.

Matai said to him,
You are like a wise man of understanding.

Toma said to him,
Rabbi, my mouth is unable to say who you are like.

Yeshua said,
I am not your Rabbi.
Because you are drunk, you are intoxicated
from the bubbling spring I have tended.

And he took him and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him.

When Toma came back to his companions, they asked him,
What did Yeshua say to you?

Toma said,
If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me,
you will pick up rocks and stone me
and fire will come out of the rocks and consume you.


--------------------
There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.


Edited by Hierophant (09/06/13 07:16 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18808930 - 09/06/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think the man himself was Satan, he was made into Satan by the Church (imo).

He could have been Satan if there is such a being, according to the bible.

IE; if I consider the bible literal, then I consider Jesus as Satan.

Taking souls from god by giving a lot of truth in exchange for one lie, and that one lie get's your soul. That is Because it is defying the very first commandment given by GOD.


Edited by teknix (09/06/13 07:29 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18808947 - 09/06/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I see what you're saying... He's been converted into an idol which, at least from Jewish perspective (and Yeshua was a Jew) is blasphemy.


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There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.


Edited by Hierophant (09/06/13 07:28 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18808973 - 09/06/13 07:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

True, think about the best ways to deceive or social engineer people, you give them a bunch of truth mixed with one lie, and they just might believe that lie, especially if it can't be disproven by them and the rest (truth) can be affirmed and appeals to the emotions...



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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18808984 - 09/06/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Do you believe in "Satan" ?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18808994 - 09/06/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No, neither do I disbelieve in him, the same goes for god.

IE; they are stupid questions. Mu.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18809008 - 09/06/13 07:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

... Why do we anthropomorphize concepts like "god" and the "devil" ???


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18809041 - 09/06/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It's a polarity of potential, both exist within us


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18810588 - 09/07/13 05:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Think about the holy trinity; the father, the son, the holy spirit.





What about it?

Can you elaborate?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18810679 - 09/07/13 07:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Markos... what do you know about cultivating mushin?
Why did you give up kanehbos/bhang (cannabis) you mentioned that you got burnt out on cbn/indica (sleepy,tired, negative side effects)
Surely you would know your substance & its origins before ramdomly toking on w/e strain was available...tsk tsk :lol:
You know that we produce endo cannabinoids called anandamide... root ananda, meaning bliss!
Sahaj Samadhi and the qualities that come from that state of being sound very familiar to me.
(miracles, synchronicities, bio location, psi etc.)
i have been discussing these things in great detail on a few original topics on shroomery.
i believe the sativa varities of cannabis would have been the correct tool described in many texts.
you don't get sleepy tired thoughts or lethargy with sativa. in fact there wasn't much indica going around back then...
sativa brings mental bliss, soaring energetic mental stimulation. like the aptly named satori by mandala seeds? Pure blissful spiritual high, strong meditative qualities.
Cultivating mushin is the key, for every thought, action, occurance, or happening....its MUSHIN all the way there & back & throughout.


Edited by treesniper119 (09/07/13 07:32 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: treesniper119]
    #18811292 - 09/07/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Jesus and Satan.

CAN you have image of yourself as Jesus.

Somwe mad people (I do not use that term derogatorily, but as in Mad Pride) in extreme states can actually think themselves as 'Jesus' or the Virgin Mary etc. So these archetypes can exist in some kind of dimension in deeper mythical layers of our psyche...

Same will be so for 'Satan'.

In other words ALL the characters in mythology--A L L (and ones not creatively even imagined yet, possibly) are 'you' --are the living being of 'you' in potentia

Imagine having a trip, and you play psychodrama. One of you has the role of 'Jesus' and another 'Satan'--how would you act these parts?

Just imagine~~~


Edited by zzripz (09/07/13 11:49 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: treesniper119]
    #18811490 - 09/07/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I know what Mushin is, but that is a condition, owing to the term, that best fits Bushido philosophy. I am not into martial arts, nor do I prefer Japanese Buddhist idoms, but I am into the corollaries of satori, and kensho.
Getting stoned on cannabis in any form is just that, getting stoned on cannabis. It is a mistake to identify intoxication with more rarified attainments. No, I didn't know what strain I was using because (1) I preferred hashish to marijuana, and (2) I quit before you were born, when it was ALL C. Sativa, and High Times Magazine (I still own Vol. 1, Issue 1) was only a few years old. The cultivation culture that you were born into didn't exist in 1979. Also, when I was pretty young, it was ALL about states of bliss, amandamide or cannabinoid didn't matter. States come and go, they are not my True Nature which is what I want to Know/Identify with.

Stoning is not like a monthly mushroom trip, it is a lifestyle that I let go of while beginning work on my Ph.D. in 1979, and which I completed in 1983. There was no time to lie around stoned. I had exhausted my life savings the first year (a mere $6000), my 2 year graduate assistantship ended, and I began working part-time as a substance abuse counselor. Hypocrisy is not a character trait I wanted to embody, so when I went into that field in the private and then the public sector, I wanted to be genuine. My position on cannabis to adolescents has always been negative. Cannabis hurt my motivation to do better in high school because I had personal and developmental issues that I used it for. Instead of socializing more, which would've been helpful for my introverted nature, I withdrew further. My emotional age when I left college at age 22 was still about 17, and cannabis had an influence in that bit of social-emotional retardation.

Now, at age 60, the last thing I want to do is cultivate slowness in neural transmission and pre-senile dementia! :lol: Stoned friends seem like idiots around me. Their short-term memory is disrupted, they appear confused, have psycho-motor retardation (awkward, slow movement), they can't follow quick witted humor but laugh at truly stupid little mistakes and such. No appeal in any of that, nor is there any novelty in it. Hey I smoked for the first time New Year's Eve 1968-69. Jimi Hendrix had a concert being simulcast on NYC radio live. My era ended, and I grew out of certain behaviors. Some of my peers didn't, and they got fixated and stultified in their development. Cannabis was a crutch for me. Once I could stand, walk, and run on my own, the crutch only became an impediment. I don't take drugs when I need to chill, I sit, and I never get bored because I'm an avid reader, but I can't understand Jack Shit when I'm stoned. I also do not want amber-colored neurons. They should remain crystal clear along with my awareness. So there you have it. But, I would never interfere with anyone else's decision to use cannabis if [s]he wanted to. To each his/her own.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18811574 - 09/07/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Then do you think that Jesus was anything more than a man? Maybe at a higher caliber of intelligence than his peers at the time, but a man none-the-less?

Or what do you mean by "Christ or Christ Consciousness" ?

I don't think we have any real evidence that Jesus really ever existed, do we?

Because you said that: "Christ means 'anointed,' as with chrism, oil, whence the term. To anoint kings in Israel was a symbolic act, imputing the 'divine right of kingship,' which lends authority. Iesous however, denied any worldly kingship, but claimed to be a king of a spiritual kingdom, according to the story lines. "

But you also said that Jesus was in it, so how can he be in chrism, oil? And how is that relevant to anything? It seems like you are saying it means one thing and then using it in a completely different context, but I am probably missing something.

:confused:

(BTW, thanks for posting, I generally find your posts quite informative.)




Christ means anointed by chrism. The act of anointing symbolized a sort of crowning, as a king, pouring oil on one's head. Christ consciousness is the biblical "mind of Christ," which believers hope to receive by grace. It is the consciousness or "mind" which is the Logos itself. In the history of thought, the Logos is the first emanation from the Unmanifested Godhead. In ancient Egypt, Ra or the later hybridized Amun-Ra might be the Unmanifest Godhead, and Thoth was the 'tongue' or 'word' of God, the Logos in Greek. Iesous the Christ was 'a man anointed by God' according to the 3 synoptic (same-view) gospels: Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Much later (90-120 CE) John's gospel wrote about "the Word" in the first few lines called the Prologue (Pro-Logos). In John's gospel, Iesous was not 'a man anointed by God,' but rather, 'God clothed in flesh.' This latter idea over-shadowed the earlier notion of a man anointed by God, and reeked of Greek mythology wherein it was common for God (Greek: Zeus, Latin: Deus) to impregnate a mortal woman and create a demigod- a god-man like Heracles, Dionysius, and others. This is a major reason why Jews did not accept this doctrine. The Jews had their own mythology, and in it, God never takes form, human or otherwise. Theophanies are angelic beings (Seraphim, Nephilim, Cherubim, etc.) - pillars of flame, burning bushes, etc. are not God.

Iesous was a man if he existed historically at all. The various birth, life, death, and resurrection motifs are lifted practically verbatim from the Egyptian Coffin and Pyramid texts. The person was written to be the focus of numerous prophesies in the Tenach (OT). Myth is very important in the psycho-history of humankind. We need myth, and they are still being produced by culture and the media. Myth derives from collective levels of the human unconscious, the Collective Unconscious, or Archetypal Mind. Iesous is a major embodiment of the central symbol of the Collective Unconscious - the higher Self. He represents generic man, and his dual nature speaks for every human being. We are all a composite of temporality and Eternity, although Iesous is depicted as being a unique specie of being, which would NOT be relevant to any of us. Iesous is the archetype, the paradigm for all of us. Most of us do not live up to the Truth of this and act in godly ways, but prefer to act like mere mammals, some more undeveloped and primitive than others. Some humanoids behave in truly reptilian ways, cold-hearted, blood-thirsty, and little more than instinctive creatures. Iesous the Christ symbolizes the epitome of fully human development IMO.




Love others
Love yourself
Love god
Love everything god has created, nature, houseplants, insects, pets i.e.

I don't think jesus was satan :-)
too much love

satan is the opposite , hate, despair, temptation, lust, greed

but we got both god and satan in all of us, it is up to ourselves to break free

when I see another animal or person I see the same soul as myself, as long as I stay away from stress / pills / drugs most of the time (moderation)
and I feel connected somehow

accept & forgive instead of letting emotions run away with us, that is what jesus taught (turn the other cheek) (don't live by thoughts/desires/emotions, they're a prison)

giving is better than receiving (a helping hand is never forgotten)
helping others brings peace
appreciating what we have brings peace too
worshiping god does too (many ways to do that... live in gods name always, don't live by desires)

play guitar for peace, dance for peace, notice the miracles of nature
simple lifestyle, nature everyday

and try to limit own destruction of the earth, make contributions instead
the earth is a good place to be if we notice it

I think jesus was a prophet and that god sends as many prophets that he needs to (gods words speak/work through many humans, don't doubt that, know it)
doesn't matter if the prophet is muhammed, jesus etc.
have mostly only read from the bible, agree with most of it

although it's been a while :-)  hopefully one day I get the time when I get old :wink:

but I believe in one loving god that wants what is best for us, and no coincidences, everything is well planned, it's just easy to forget by eating pills/being stressed

always appreciate what we have


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: lessismore]
    #18811590 - 09/07/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Satan is most adequately described as THE Master of Deception, (not a master, THE master) do you think he could be such a master is he announced and displayed his intent?

Sure, he feeds off those things you mentioned above, and who has provided more food for him than anyone else?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: lessismore]
    #18811625 - 09/07/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There are many people connected with the source/god either partially or almost fully, but we shouldn't worship them, but instead see them as a fellow human being

the potential to connect with god is in everyone of us, when we do things right

they have made mistakes too, like all of us, and learned from them :-)

jesus is just a symbol on a person who is pure, unconditional love

we can learn a lot from that..


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: lessismore]
    #18811650 - 09/07/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

According to who?

I think you are more worried about your personal perspective than you are considering the perspectives presented. There are more perspective then your own, so humor me and attempt to look from another.


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Offlinep-nut
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18814012 - 09/08/13 03:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

In response to the OP;
Lovers of The Real will worship The Real in whatever form they are culturally, intellectually and psychologically comfortable with.
Likewise lovers of those things directly inverse to realizing The Real will worship what they will.
Principles, ideologies and religions are (thankfully?) largely metaphors which people will interpret according to their capacity/nature (intellectual, cultural and psychological).


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: lessismore]
    #18814838 - 09/08/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
There are many people connected with the source/god either partially or almost fully, but we shouldn't worship them, but instead see them as a fellow human being

the potential to connect with god is in everyone of us, when we do things right

they have made mistakes too, like all of us, and learned from them :-)

jesus is just a symbol on a person who is pure, unconditional love

we can learn a lot from that..




Exactly, Yeshua described himself as "the way, the truth and the light" his life was an example of devotion and surrender to a higher spiritual power, he identified completely with the divine aspect within himself and his teachings were an attempt to inspire such a connection in the lives of those who were able to receive his message.

But instead of being inspired to develope their own personal relationship with the divine the majority of Christians deify the messenger and use him as their connection to the divine and will never achieve the same level of Self/God realization that Yeshua embodied.

Yeshua was an enlightened Jew and the social, political and religious atmosphere around him wasnt ready to accept such a position of unity with the divine. He could have just stayed in India but he was compelled to express his revelation to his people, to uplift and revolutionize his mother culture, but his message was so unorthodox and out of alignment with his native spirituality that few were able to understand him, he upset the system and they crucified him but he did inspire change just not in the way he had envisioned.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18815329 - 09/08/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

IF, and it's a really big I, Iesous did exist as a single historical figure instead of a purely literary composite of wisdom teachers designed to be the one target of the prophesies in the Tenach, he was never in India. He was a 1st century Judean peasant living in Roman-occupied territory, subject to Jewish puppet-kings who were themselves under Roman rule. The so-called 'missing years' are between age 12 and 30, where some people have fancifully suggested visits to India, Tibet, and other places (see Levi's The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ), as if his abilities were the result of initiations of esoteric schools. Of course, there is no mention of Jesus' b'ris, his bar mitzvah, or his marriage, ostensibly to Miriam called Magdalene. Only a married man was permitted to speak openly in the temple as Jesus was said to have done, so one must extrapolate based on knowledge of ancient Jewish culture. His mission was to the children of Israel, so going to India only makes sense to moderns because it fits with their concept of Jesus as an initiate to mystery traditions there.

The only evidence of Christian evangelism in India, is by way of the apostle Thomas:
http://www.manastir-lepavina.org/arhiva/novosti/index.php/engtext/detaljnije/witness_for_an_apostle_the_evidence_for_st_thomas_in_india/
The Gospel of Thomas does have an Indian flavor to its doctrine, which is similar to other Indian philosophies of Self-Realization. There is a marked absence of vicarious sacrificial theology or 'the cross' in Thomas.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18815528 - 09/08/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Why is the idea of a first century carpenter traveling on trade routes so out of the question?


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There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.


Edited by Hierophant (09/08/13 02:57 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18815711 - 09/08/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hierophant said:
Why is the idea of a first century carpenter traveling on trade routes so out of the question?




Hey, anything is possible, but it's all inference. For example, Matthew 13:55 refers to Jesus as "the carpenter's son," but he is not directly named as being a carpenter - ever. Nevertheless, most people infer that like father, like son. It is generally thought that Jesus began his ministry at age 30. By then, he would have been married and would have required a trade. He was not educated as a priest, although people called him "rabbi" which means teacher. Rabbinical Judaism didn't exist yet, it was temple Judaism of which the epicenter was the temple at Jerusalem until the Romans destroyed it in 70 CE. If Jesus wasn't a merchant, and he wasn't independently wealthy or of royal birth, there would have been no purpose for him to have travelled to India, say, by ship. :shrug: Time and again it has been stated that his mission was to the lost sheep of Israel, the greater majority of whom were right where he was. Bottom line: There is nothing in the canonical Bible, nor in any of the Apocrypha or the Nag Hammadi library that states that Jesus went to India, Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, or neighboring China.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18817279 - 09/08/13 11:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's sounds like an argument that he was divinely inspired, otherwise how would have have learned what he was teaching?

I mean even if we say he discovered it himself, people would just attribute that to god communicating to him.

The fact is that the things he was teaching were in existence long before he was born, so it seems more likely that he learned it from somewhere.

China and India both have teaching of the love he was preaching of, so that makes me think that's were he got it from.

:shrug:


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18817389 - 09/08/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, it was from the Vedic priests who conducted animal sacrifices just like the Jewish priests, so it must have been the Indian and/or Chinese Buddhists you are referring to. Your conjecture is far from original. Higher consciousness does come from within one's experience, it is not learned from others, except intellectually. Iesous, like every human being, was unique. He wrote nothing, so his teachings are based on writings of others. It is what Aldous Huxley called "The Perennial Philosophy." Ancient critics like Celsus pointed out that the Christian teachings were not new. Philo of Alexandria's writings are still available. He would have lived contemporaneously with Iesous. John, who wrote the gospel and revelations obviously used Philo's writings on the Logos (Word) when he penned his Prologue (Pro-Logos) to the Gospel of John, but Iesous himself would not have been so philosophical. That is why John's gospel is the least historically accurate, not to mention the latest (90-120 CE).

People need a human figure to focus on, a frame of reference, without which they become afraid of dissolving into the Emptiness that the Buddhists are quite frank about. God is nothing that one can point to, it is empty of substance and concept, but that hasn't stopped Christianity from developing theologies that are just idolatrous fabrications of purported understanding. The truth is, there is only Mystery, and it should be humbling to surrender to the fact that the Mystery in incomprehensible and awe-inspiring. The Way is nothing to fight for, kill for, convert for. Most people over most of history have remained clueless sinners by virtue of their perverse need to control what others believe. Belief is unnecessary. Faith in love (agapΓ©) yields wisdom. Wisdom is spaciousness of mind, emptiness, letting be.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18818311 - 09/09/13 09:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I feel that the mythologies we create and spiritual systems we develop are a product of our evolving relationship with the Mystery. There is little to no proof that Yeshua was a flesh and blood historical figure, and John Allegro goes as far as to propose that the story of Christ was a cryptic cover for a mushroom inspired cult. All of what we compound into the figure of Yeshua is speculation, whether our own or someone else's that we adopt to create a personalized relationship with the concept itself. Depending on what your relationship is, the idea can inspire, empower and enrich you in your spiritual evolution or it can stunt, inhibit and trap you within a shell of dogmatic belief.


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There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.


Edited by Hierophant (09/09/13 09:54 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18818999 - 09/09/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well said.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18819803 - 09/09/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hierophant said:
Yeshua (Jesus) was and is misunderstood by the majority of people.




This is true.





His teachings and the signifigence of his life and message have been completely distorted by the church,




No they haven't. Jesus came to teach us that God is love and that we can find happiness by loving God with all our heart, mind and soul. That is exactly what the catholic church teaches and it is the truth.



Quote:

Yeshua never claimed to be God, he identified completely with his inherent divinity and attempted to teach others how to connect with their own divinity.




Absolutely untrue. Yeshua certainly did claim to be God.

"anyone who has seen me has seen the Father"

"I and my father are one"

"before Abhraham was, I AM"

Jesus was a God-realized being. That means that unlike us men, he did not suffer from the delusion that he was separated from God. In God, there are no divisions. A perfectly God realized person IS God in human form. You even admit as much in your post, you say that Jesus was completely identidied with his inherent divinity. You are right but you don't seem to understand the implications of that. Being completely identified with God, makes you God. You cannot be fully God realized and not (at least on some level) be God. That would imply division.

Quote:


And speaking of the Gnostic gospels, read the Gospel of Toma (Thomas).

Yeshua said,
If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will be your salvation.
If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you

Also from the gospel:

Yeshua asks his disciples,
Make a comparison of me and tell me who I am like.

Shimon Kefa said to him,
You are like a righteous angel.

Matai said to him,
You are like a wise man of understanding.

Toma said to him,
Rabbi, my mouth is unable to say who you are like.

Yeshua said,
I am not your Rabbi.
Because you are drunk, you are intoxicated
from the bubbling spring I have tended.

And he took him and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him.

When Toma came back to his companions, they asked him,
What did Yeshua say to you?

Toma said,
If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me,
you will pick up rocks and stone me
and fire will come out of the rocks and consume you.




There is nothing special about the gospel of Thomas, it teaches the exact same thing as the four canonical gospels.

I have noticed that mushroom and acid heads love the gnostic gospels and the more mystical aspects of Christ's teaching. Yes, all that stuff is true but it is no more important than the rest of his teaching. Not everyone is blessed with mystical experiences of union with the divine right off the bat. DOes that mean they are inferior to us who have had such experiences? In my opinion, no. What does Christ teach to non mystics?  Righteous living, morality, fairness, love for God and neighbor, prayer, faith, hope, devotion, obedience to the commandments and perseverance. This is what the church has taught for ages and the beauty of this teaching is that it applies to everyone, not just mystics.

If God has blessed you with knowledge of the mystic christ and the inherent beauty, wisdom, goodness and divinity of your own soul, excellent. But do not think that makes you superior to devout Christians who have not yet been granted these graces. They have been given other graces, or they will receive mystical knowledge when God sees fit to reveal it to them.

I will support my assertions with scripture from the book of Job chapter four as Job is complaining about his misfortune, his friend says to him thus:

1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,

2 If we assay to commune with thee, wilt thou be grieved? but who can withhold himself from speaking?

3 Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands.

4 Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

5 But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.

6 Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?

7 Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.


Notice he doesnt say when ever did mystics perish but the innocent, the righteous. Jesus taught the path of righteousness. If are we to believe the Bible, then all who keep their conscious clear before God (as St. Paul recommends) and act uprightedly in fear of the Lord (as St. Peter states in the book of acts) are to be saved. They will all come to knowledge of the truth as God sees fit to reveal it to them. Living a holy life, building up every virtue and avoiding vice while humbling oneself before God in love and worship is just as good a spiritual practice as any.

Eating a mushroom and having deep spiritual truths revealed to you that many mainstream christians are unaware of, will profit you but little if you don't practice righteousness in your daily life. I am not saying you are like that, but this seems to me to be a very common affliction among shroomerites.

They have a mystical experience and come to understand some deep spiritual truth and then they think they are superior to "ignorant" mainstream Christians. Obviously there are plenty of ignorant mainstream christians but there are devout ones too and God cares for and looks after these and will see it that they obtain salvation long before mushroom mystics who might possess some advanced spiritual knowledge but do not live their daily lives in accordance with God's laws and commandments.


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OfflineHierophant
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Deviate]
    #18821531 - 09/10/13 12:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Hierophant said:
Yeshua (Jesus) was and is misunderstood by the majority of people.




This is true.

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Hierophant said:



His teachings and the signifigence of his life and message have been completely distorted by the church,




No they haven't. Jesus came to teach us that God is love and that we can find happiness by loving God with all our heart, mind and soul. That is exactly what the catholic church teaches and it is the truth.




I did not single out the catholic church, I used the word "church" as a generalization for the Christain religious institution which deifies and idolizes a human being who was, in my opinion, a Self/God realized mystic but still a human being.

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Hierophant said:
Yeshua never claimed to be God, he identified completely with his inherent divinity and attempted to teach others how to connect with their own divinity.




Absolutely untrue. Yeshua certainly did claim to be God.

"anyone who has seen me has seen the Father"

"I and my father are one"

"before Abhraham was, I AM"

Jesus was a God-realized being. That means that unlike us men, he did not suffer from the delusion that he was separated from God. In God, there are no divisions. A perfectly God realized person IS God in human form. You even admit as much in your post, you say that Jesus was completely identidied with his inherent divinity. You are right but you don't seem to understand the implications of that. Being completely identified with God, makes you God. You cannot be fully God realized and not (at least on some level) be God. That would imply division.




All of the scriptural quotes you have used only affirm to me my own understanding of Yeshua as being a Self realized individual. Whether or not a Self realized individual constitutes "God incarnate" is dependent on ones definition, if the two terms are used interchangably than there is nothing unique about the figure Yeshua as there have been countless self realized individuals throughout history.

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Hierophant said:
And speaking of the Gnostic gospels, read the Gospel of Toma (Thomas).

Yeshua said,
If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will be your salvation.
If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you

Also from the gospel:

Yeshua asks his disciples,
Make a comparison of me and tell me who I am like.

Shimon Kefa said to him,
You are like a righteous angel.

Matai said to him,
You are like a wise man of understanding.

Toma said to him,
Rabbi, my mouth is unable to say who you are like.

Yeshua said,
I am not your Rabbi.
Because you are drunk, you are intoxicated
from the bubbling spring I have tended.

And he took him and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him.

When Toma came back to his companions, they asked him,
What did Yeshua say to you?

Toma said,
If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me,
you will pick up rocks and stone me
and fire will come out of the rocks and consume you.




There is nothing special about the gospel of Thomas, it teaches the exact same thing as the four canonical gospels.




No it doesnt, it portrays a figure quite different than the one portrayed in the canonical gospels which, in my opinion, is exactly what makes it important.

Quote:

Deviate said:
I have noticed that mushroom and acid heads love the gnostic gospels and the more mystical aspects of Christ's teaching. Yes, all that stuff is true but it is no more important than the rest of his teaching. Not everyone is blessed with mystical experiences of union with the divine right off the bat. DOes that mean they are inferior to us who have had such experiences? In my opinion, no. What does Christ teach to non mystics?  Righteous living, morality, fairness, love for God and neighbor, prayer, faith, hope, devotion, obedience to the commandments and perseverance. This is what the church has taught for ages and the beauty of this teaching is that it applies to everyone, not just mystics.

If God has blessed you with knowledge of the mystic christ and the inherent beauty, wisdom, goodness and divinity of your own soul, excellent. But do not think that makes you superior to devout Christians who have not yet been granted these graces. They have been given other graces, or they will receive mystical knowledge when God sees fit to reveal it to them.


I will support my assertions with scripture from the book of Job chapter four as Job is complaining about his misfortune, his friend says to him thus:

1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,

2 If we assay to commune with thee, wilt thou be grieved? but who can withhold himself from speaking?

3 Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands.

4 Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

5 But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.

6 Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?

7 Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.


Notice he doesnt say when ever did mystics perish but the innocent, the righteous. Jesus taught the path of righteousness. If are we to believe the Bible, then all who keep their conscious clear before God (as St. Paul recommends) and act uprightedly in fear of the Lord (as St. Peter states in the book of acts) are to be saved. They will all come to knowledge of the truth as God sees fit to reveal it to them. Living a holy life, building up every virtue and avoiding vice while humbling oneself before God in love and worship is just as good a spiritual practice as any.

Eating a mushroom and having deep spiritual truths revealed to you that many mainstream christians are unaware of, will profit you but little if you don't practice righteousness in your daily life. I am not saying you are like that, but this seems to me to be a very common affliction among shroomerites.

They have a mystical experience and come to understand some deep spiritual truth and then they think they are superior to "ignorant" mainstream Christians. Obviously there are plenty of ignorant mainstream christians but there are devout ones too and God cares for and looks after these and will see it that they obtain salvation long before mushroom mystics who might possess some advanced spiritual knowledge but do not live their daily lives in accordance with God's laws and commandments.




You seem to be under the unwarranted impression that I have a superiority complex and view people with a different understanding than my own as lesser than myself which is not the case. Perhaps due to your emotinal connection to the subject matter, you are transferring attitudes you have previously encountered with others onto me because of some commonalities between their words and mine.

I do not view myself as superior to others and nothing I have said suggests so. If there is anything that my experiences have taught me it is humility and compassion in light of the awareness that there is no "other" there only exists varying levels of identification, realization and experience of the supreme Self. I hope you can understand and respect my perspective without feeling threatened and reacting defensively. In truth all we defend is an idea whether personal or collective in origin which our egoic mind struggles to sustain and reinforce.


Edited by Hierophant (09/10/13 01:03 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18821641 - 09/10/13 01:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Ok it appears we are in total agreement and I reacted hastily and in a way that was unwarranted. I apologize.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Deviate]
    #18822268 - 09/10/13 07:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

In what way do you think Jesus was different in the Gospel of thomas?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Deviate]
    #18822856 - 09/10/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No worries, we're both passionate about the subject matter, I enjoy discussing and sharing perspectives with others regarding spirituality and I feel like everyone benefits from these discussions in one way or another.

The Gospel of Thomas is different in that it is not a narrative gospel but a collection of sayings attributed to the figure Yeshua that contain hidden wisdom of which the reader must discover for oneself to attain a level of self knowledge.

The Gospel begins,

"These are the sayings that the living Yeshua spoke and Yehuda Toma the twin recorded.

1) And he said,
Whoever discovers what these sayings mean will not taste death.

2) Yeshua said,
Seek and do not stop seeking until you find.
When you find, you will be troubled.
When you are troubled,
you will marvel and rule over all.

3) Yeshua said,
If your leaders tell you, "Look, the kingdom is in heaven,"
then the birds of heaven precede you.
If they say to you, "It is in the sea,"
then the fish will precede you.
But the kingdom is inside and outside of you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known,
and you will understand that you are children of the living father.
But if you do not know yourselves,
then you dwell in poverty and you are poverty"

The Gospel continues in this manner for its entirety and displays some sayings and parables that appear in other Gospels but nowhere in the Gospel of Thomas does Yeshua place himself above another man. There is no reference of him being titled "Christ" or "Messiah" or "Lord." He is not claimed to be the incarnate "son of God." He is called "Rabbi" but denounces the title in a quote I previously posted. These differences are what set the Gospel of Thomas apart from the canonical Gospels. It displays a wise but humble man offering his understanding of the divine reality to his band. Not God incarnate or even the son of God but a man no different in substance than you or I.


--------------------
There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.


Edited by Hierophant (09/10/13 10:56 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18822999 - 09/10/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

On another note, I think you raised an important point in your earlier post.

A divine or mystical experience is of little worth unless it creates a change in character or shift in behavior that is in congruence with love, compassion and the unity of being. Without this shift the individual has made no movement or growth in the direction of the divine. They have simply had an experience which in no way makes them special. It is true, that many who have profound spiritual experiences, whether psychedelic, yogic, or meditative in origin, often cling to these experiences, deeming them an achievement, something to be proud of which only reinforces a sense of distinction and adds to the egoic sense of self ultimately leading one in the opposite direction of the realization of the supreme Self.


Edited by Hierophant (09/10/13 09:22 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18842849 - 09/14/13 11:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not seeing anywhere in the bible where it says even once, that Jesus claim to be god, in fact it appears to be the opposite, because he was often talking to god.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Hierophant]
    #18842871 - 09/14/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Peace is on earth we just have to notice it, appreciate what we have

peace comes from within and to everyone around you, when you accept gods love

Know thyself

very good quote you had there :-)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: lessismore]
    #18843015 - 09/15/13 12:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

How can someone quote scripture as fact? 

Can we get some proof that Jesus actually existed even?  I can find none. 

how can you argue the spirituality of someone or something if it never existed? 

Creating an idol just allows people to instill their own feelings into them, allowing limitless venues of spiritual ideas.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18843115 - 09/15/13 01:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The author John equated Iesous to the Logos, which is translated in English as "Word.'' The capitalization of it suggested a second aspect to God in the 2nd century, and the Holy Spirit suggested a third aspect by the 3rd century. Tertullian coined the word trinity. But Logos derives from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who wrote a lot about the Logos. John borrowed some of this for his Prologue (Pro-Logos) to the gospel of John. Philo got his ideas from Neo-Platonism where the Logos, called 'Nous,' is the first Being that emanates from non-Being, the Unmanifested. This idea turned into the Father (Unmanifest) and the (Manifest) Son. Neo-Platonism has the 'World Soul' (Anima) emanate in turn from Nous. In Christian theology this became the Holy Spirit. But Iesous the Christ according to John (not the other 3 gospel authors) was 'God clothed with flesh,' the incarnation of God. Mark, Matthew and Luke considered Iesous 'a man anointed by God.' Huge difference. Yet, John's idea tainted most Christian's understanding, and they bought into Iesous as a demigod straight out of classic Greek mythology.


--------------------
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18843243 - 09/15/13 02:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The author John equated Iesous to the Logos, which is translated in English as "Word.'' The capitalization of it suggested a second aspect to God in the 2nd century, and the Holy Spirit suggested a third aspect by the 3rd century. Tertullian coined the word trinity. But Logos derives from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who wrote a lot about the Logos. John borrowed some of this for his Prologue (Pro-Logos) to the gospel of John. Philo got his ideas from Neo-Platonism where the Logos, called 'Nous,' is the first Being that emanates from non-Being, the Unmanifested. This idea turned into the Father (Unmanifest) and the (Manifest) Son. Neo-Platonism has the 'World Soul' (Anima) emanate in turn from Nous. In Christian theology this became the Holy Spirit. But Iesous the Christ according to John (not the other 3 gospel authors) was 'God clothed with flesh,' the incarnation of God. Mark, Matthew and Luke considered Iesous 'a man anointed by God.' Huge difference. Yet, John's idea tainted most Christian's understanding, and they bought into Iesous as a demigod straight out of classic Greek mythology.




Where are you getting this idea that the other 3 Gospels (not John) said that Jesus as only 'a man annointed by God'? That's not true cause even the text says that Jesus and God are the same. This is what the Ecumenical Church Councils decided in the first 7 centuries of the Faith, that Jesus was God in the flesh, and the 4 Gospels were chosen by the Church because they all taught a simple truth about Jesus, that he was both God and Man, and that because of that, he saves us from sin. John's Gospel is different only because that is the theological Gospel meant for the initiated.

To claim that the 3 Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke do not say that Jesus was God and that only John's Gospel said Jesus was God is just not fact.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18843468 - 09/15/13 06:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The author John equated Iesous to the Logos, which is translated in English as "Word.'' The capitalization of it suggested a second aspect to God in the 2nd century, and the Holy Spirit suggested a third aspect by the 3rd century. Tertullian coined the word trinity. But Logos derives from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who wrote a lot about the Logos. John borrowed some of this for his Prologue (Pro-Logos) to the gospel of John. Philo got his ideas from Neo-Platonism where the Logos, called 'Nous,' is the first Being that emanates from non-Being, the Unmanifested. This idea turned into the Father (Unmanifest) and the (Manifest) Son. Neo-Platonism has the 'World Soul' (Anima) emanate in turn from Nous. In Christian theology this became the Holy Spirit. But Iesous the Christ according to John (not the other 3 gospel authors) was 'God clothed with flesh,' the incarnation of God. Mark, Matthew and Luke considered Iesous 'a man anointed by God.' Huge difference. Yet, John's idea tainted most Christian's understanding, and they bought into Iesous as a demigod straight out of classic Greek mythology.




Where are you getting this idea that the other 3 Gospels (not John) said that Jesus as only 'a man annointed by God'? That's not true cause even the text says that Jesus and God are the same. This is what the Ecumenical Church Councils decided in the first 7 centuries of the Faith, that Jesus was God in the flesh, and the 4 Gospels were chosen by the Church because they all taught a simple truth about Jesus, that he was both God and Man, and that because of that, he saves us from sin. John's Gospel is different only because that is the theological Gospel meant for the initiated.

To claim that the 3 Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke do not say that Jesus was God and that only John's Gospel said Jesus was God is just not fact.




Where does it say Jesus is god in the bible? And then why is he always talking to god and who would he be praying to if he was god?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18844910 - 09/15/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The author John equated Iesous to the Logos, which is translated in English as "Word.'' The capitalization of it suggested a second aspect to God in the 2nd century, and the Holy Spirit suggested a third aspect by the 3rd century. Tertullian coined the word trinity. But Logos derives from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who wrote a lot about the Logos. John borrowed some of this for his Prologue (Pro-Logos) to the gospel of John. Philo got his ideas from Neo-Platonism where the Logos, called 'Nous,' is the first Being that emanates from non-Being, the Unmanifested. This idea turned into the Father (Unmanifest) and the (Manifest) Son. Neo-Platonism has the 'World Soul' (Anima) emanate in turn from Nous. In Christian theology this became the Holy Spirit. But Iesous the Christ according to John (not the other 3 gospel authors) was 'God clothed with flesh,' the incarnation of God. Mark, Matthew and Luke considered Iesous 'a man anointed by God.' Huge difference. Yet, John's idea tainted most Christian's understanding, and they bought into Iesous as a demigod straight out of classic Greek mythology.




Where are you getting this idea that the other 3 Gospels (not John) said that Jesus as only 'a man annointed by God'? That's not true cause even the text says that Jesus and God are the same. This is what the Ecumenical Church Councils decided in the first 7 centuries of the Faith, that Jesus was God in the flesh, and the 4 Gospels were chosen by the Church because they all taught a simple truth about Jesus, that he was both God and Man, and that because of that, he saves us from sin. John's Gospel is different only because that is the theological Gospel meant for the initiated.

To claim that the 3 Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke do not say that Jesus was God and that only John's Gospel said Jesus was God is just not fact.




Where does it say Jesus is god in the bible? And then why is he always talking to god and who would he be praying to if he was god?




Well that's where the Trinity doctrine/theory comes into play. Many places in the Bible refer to Jesus as God, but it also has the Father being God as well. If Jesus is the "Son of God" as it says, then it means he is equal with God even John's Gospel says that,

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, β€œI and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, β€œMany good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, β€œFor a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”



The Trinity is a doctrine that says there are 3 different attributes/beings of God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God's activity in the world and in ourselves. The Son is God in the flesh, and the Father is the originator of all that exists "The Father of Lights". Its one God but its three different activities or beings of the same God.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/15/13 03:03 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18845056 - 09/15/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, β€œI and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, β€œMany good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, β€œFor a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”







This sounds like when Mansur al-Hallaj was murdered by the Caliph a thousand years later.
He said "I am The Truth", meaning he was God, meaning that he saw no separation between himself and the Divine. And the bastards killed him, just like they did Jesus.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18845204 - 09/15/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's your contention. John's gospel is the most non-historical in orientation, the most mystical. Personally, I don't care what theological decisions were made at Nicaea or Post-Nicaea. I own the Ante-Nicene Fathers works, but that was the beginning of the end of truth IMO. The canonical works were selected for largely political reasons, and the entire Nag Hammadi library uncovered in 1945 shows just how many differing theologies were done away with by evil men like Irenaeus, and committed to the fascist fires at the outset of institutional Christianity. Moreover, Matthew, for example,  the religious Jewish author would not have inserted Greek mythological ideas into his Jewish oriented gospel. Incarnation as a concept never belonged to Hebrew myth. Demigods were purely Greek mythology, born of a mortal virgin and Deity.

Christianity was a sect of Judaism for a good 150 years until they were ousted from the synagogues. By then, the Hellenism from John's influence had created a sufficient mytho-religious wedge to separate Jewish from Gentile churches. The Jewish sects like the Ebionites never embraced the incarnational, Hellenisitc, Gentile mythological form of Christianity. The Church Fathers were ALL Gentile by the time theological decisions for dogma was established. If Jesus could be interviewed about the vast theological concept from the Western and Eastern churches, he would not have any idea what any of the trinitarian doctrines or Christological doctrines were about. If he did exist as a 1st century Judean peasant, the Mystery of God would have remained a Mystery, not speculated and elaborated in intellectual treatises about which nobody could possibly know anything. Theology is inventive at best, attempting to satisfy an intellectual craving for which there cannot be any intellectual answers.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18845714 - 09/15/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
That's your contention. John's gospel is the most non-historical in orientation, the most mystical. Personally, I don't care what theological decisions were made at Nicaea or Post-Nicaea. I own the Ante-Nicene Fathers works, but that was the beginning of the end of truth IMO. The canonical works were selected for largely political reasons, and the entire Nag Hammadi library uncovered in 1945 shows just how many differing theologies were done away with by evil men like Irenaeus, and committed to the fascist fires at the outset of institutional Christianity. Moreover, Matthew, for example,  the religious Jewish author would not have inserted Greek mythological ideas into his Jewish oriented gospel. Incarnation as a concept never belonged to Hebrew myth. Demigods were purely Greek mythology, born of a mortal virgin and Deity.


Christianity was a sect of Judaism for a good 150 years until they were ousted from the synagogues. By then, the Hellenism from John's influence had created a sufficient mytho-religious wedge to separate Jewish from Gentile churches. The Jewish sects like the Ebionites never embraced the incarnational, Hellenisitc, Gentile mythological form of Christianity. The Church Fathers were ALL Gentile by the time theological decisions for dogma was established. If Jesus could be interviewed about the vast theological concept from the Western and Eastern churches, he would not have any idea what any of the trinitarian doctrines or Christological doctrines were about. If he did exist as a 1st century Judean peasant, the Mystery of God would have remained a Mystery, not speculated and elaborated in intellectual treatises about which nobody could possibly know anything. Theology is inventive at best, attempting to satisfy an intellectual craving for which there cannot be any intellectual answers.









Evil men like Irenaeus? Where did you get all these teachings from, can you give me some proof of these things? Saying that Matthew was just Greek mythology is very bold of you.

How was Christianity a sect of Judaism, where did you get that teaching from?

You may have a point in saying theology is inventive but a big reason why it exists is so that there can be one unity in the Faith even as Paul said there should be. Paul said that God gave us teachers of the Faith so that we would reach a "Unity of the Faith" and the "Full Knowledge (Gr. Epignosis) of the Son of God." "Unto a perfect man".


Ephesians 4:11-16 "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all arrive to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the Fullness of Christ; that we may no longer be infants, being tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming,
but speaking the truth in love, we may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ; from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the working of the measure of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the edification of itself in love."


But how do we know what the true knowledge of the Son of God is without teachers and evangelists and a Church itself to teach us? We will be "carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming."


There is a reason why the gnostics had their writings buried and why there were never recovered until 1945. One, it was not God's will and secondly contained within the writings themselves was never a unified doctrine which brought about any sort of unity of the faith. That is the problem with gnosticism as it was and as it stands today, there are so many different teachings which conflict with each other and there is no universal teaching of it. It is an ocean of confusion and the teachings are not in one accord with one another. I'm sure God didn't want it to be like that, He wanted there to be one Faith and one teaching, not many teachings.

If you can succinctly give me your definition of the Faith of Christianity, I bet you could not give me a definitive answer. You would struggle to. And where did you get those teachings from, which authority was it, was it just one writing or was it a collection of writings which all said the same thing? You can't just go by one writing, that is why in the Bible we have a collection of different writings but one universal teaching contained within them. That was the purpose of why the Church Fathers selected the books that are in the New Testament. Plus it just made sense to them, the teachings were from God. And it wasn't some intellectual thirst that they had it was that they wanted a universal teaching not many and diverse ones.

Without a universal teaching about God and Christ then we end up where we are now, arguing to no good end. My opinion against yours... But who has the higher authority, the Church or myself? The Fathers certainly were not fools or "evil men", they were holy and blameless, and sought the will of God. Many or most were monastics who lived in the desert and cleansed themselves by their ascetic struggles and became united to and understood God.

And when the Faith was theologically expounded, it did not make the Faith any less of a mystery than it is. In the Christian East, Eastern Orthodoxy, we have a branch of theology called "Apophatic Theology". You may have heard of it. We speak of God as "Negative", we never try to define God as a being or the things of God in an intellectual fashion. Unlike the Roman Catholic West who become the opposite in their theology, they turned to a highly scholastic and intellectual form of theology which turned God and the Spirit of God into a creature and not a mystical being.

Read about that here


Have you ever read the book the Philokalia or the works of St. Maximus the Confessor? You should pick that book up. Its extremely gnostic in its teachings, more than you would know.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/15/13 06:45 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18846843 - 09/15/13 11:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

How was Christianity a sect of Judaism, where did you get that teaching from?   :wtf:

We're done here newbie. I practiced Hesychastic contemplations before you were born. You are going to school me on apophatic vs. cataphatic mysticism in Christian traditions? Really? Do you know to what extent these traditions in the Eastern Orthodox Church derive directly from Plotinian Neo-Platonism? Do you understand the philosophical precursors to Christian theology, not to mention the mythological precursors? BTW, read my response again. Matthew was the Judaizer, not the Hellenizer. That was John's modus operandi. Do not presume to preach until you have assessed the recipient. The statement above indicates that you don't know Jack about Christian history. I'd have to say that I learned this from a number of established theologians during my Masters of Theological Studies degree which I completed in 1978 at Drew University. The past 35 years have been spent in an academic and contemplative lifestyle.

These following words are yours:
"it was not God's will," 
"I'm sure God didn't w ant it to be like that, He wanted there to be one Faith and one teaching, not many teachings."

"The Fathers certainly were not fools or "evil men", they were holy and blameless, and sought the will of God."

You obviously don't know the meaning of the word pretension. :lol:  Seriously, don't bother responding, I'll only put you on my Ignore list for my own benefit. You see, I am usually a very patient man, but there is one kind of mentality that I feel compelled to shred, one that is likely to get me banned here. Even my patience has a limit.

Adios :bye:


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18847050 - 09/15/13 11:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There is only one faith, and it's within. What is without is only a set of guidelines for the confused to learn to know themselves. The multiplicity of lies necessitates a multiplicity of outer faiths. But you either know yourself or you live forever in fear and delusion.

Consult the Book of Luke 17:20-21.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18847191 - 09/16/13 12:21 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
How was Christianity a sect of Judaism, where did you get that teaching from?   :wtf:

We're done here newbie. I practiced Hesychastic contemplations before you were born. You are going to school me on apophatic vs. cataphatic mysticism in Christian traditions? Really? Do you know to what extent these traditions in the Eastern Orthodox Church derive directly from Plotinian Neo-Platonism? Do you understand the philosophical precursors to Christian theology, not to mention the mythological precursors? BTW, read my response again. Matthew was the Judaizer, not the Hellenizer. That was John's modus operandi. Do not presume to preach until you have assessed the recipient. The statement above indicates that you don't know Jack about Christian history. I'd have to say that I learned this from a number of established theologians during my Masters of Theological Studies degree which I completed in 1978 at Drew University. The past 35 years have been spent in an academic and contemplative lifestyle.

These following words are yours:
"it was not God's will," 
"I'm sure God didn't w ant it to be like that, He wanted there to be one Faith and one teaching, not many teachings."

"The Fathers certainly were not fools or "evil men", they were holy and blameless, and sought the will of God."

You obviously don't know the meaning of the word pretension. :lol:  Seriously, don't bother responding, I'll only put you on my Ignore list for my own benefit. You see, I am usually a very patient man, but there is one kind of mentality that I feel compelled to shred, one that is likely to get me banned here. Even my patience has a limit.

Adios :bye:







Going to shut the door on me so soon? If you've studied for 35 years but that doesn't that mean you are all knowing about Christianity.

You seem to have a lot of pretentions about the Faith yourself.
That's a lack of character on your part. If you were so sure of your own beliefs you wouldn't be so offended at what I am saying. In fact, you would try to convert me over to your own beliefs. Guess I hit a nerve with that Ephesians quote. If you studied hesychasm or any monastic writings in Eastern Orthodoxy you would realize that the goal of any hesychastic practice is dispassion, do you know what that is? If you had any dispassion in yourself you wouldn't try to block me, that is rather un-Christian of you. Shows that you have a sick soul. If you knew anything at all about hesychasm you would realize that its for the healing of the soul's passions which are illnesses thereof.

We all have to define the Faith, that's what Ephesians said. What so you don't believe in what Paul said? Paul was a very smart man, smarter than you and your 35 years of studying and experience in gnosticism that's for damn sure.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 12:31 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18847242 - 09/16/13 12:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
There is only one faith, and it's within. What is without is only a set of guidelines for the confused to learn to know themselves. The multiplicity of lies necessitates a multiplicity of outer faiths. But you either know yourself or you live forever in fear and delusion.

Consult the Book of Luke 17:20-21.




Depending on what translation you ascribe to it says it is "Within You" but the NIV translation says "In your Midst" referring to Jesus not to inside yourself. So you can't really interpret the text in that way the text is referring to Jesus not to yourself.

Know Yourself yes, but you can't know yourself without listening to teachers who can guide you. Without learning from others more experienced than yourself you are only walking the path of delusion.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 12:32 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior] * 1
    #18847248 - 09/16/13 12:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

For real?  A tiny amount of research will definitely back up what theGnostic is saying. 
Do a little digging and stop buying into the bullcrap that gets spoon-fed to most Christians out there these days.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #18847275 - 09/16/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheGreenArrow said:
For real?  A tiny amount of research will definitely back up what theGnostic is saying. 
Do a little digging and stop buying into the bullcrap that gets spoon-fed to most Christians out there these days.





I don't buy into the crap that most Christians buy into, that's the thing.


Markos seems like a very smart man, but there is a kind knowledge and wisdom that is not of the right kind.

Read this if you want to learn about what the right kind of wisdom is.


James 3:13-17  Is there anyone wise and understanding among you? Let him show by his good conduct that his works are in meekness of wisdom.
But if you have bitter jealousy and strife in your heart, do not boast and lie against the truth.
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
For where jealousy and strife exist, there unrest and every evil deed are.
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those making peace."



A tiny amount of research? I would seriously doubt it. Its not historians he's listening to its teachers who interpreted the Bible. Where is the proof by the way? I want to see some teachings with actual historical documented facts not something someone said in the 20th century either something earlier, much earlier.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 01:02 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior] * 2
    #18847331 - 09/16/13 01:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Know Yourself yes, but you can't know yourself without listening to teachers who can guide you. Without learning from others more experienced than yourself you are only walking the path of delusion.




These are two of the most dangerous lies anyone has ever told.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18847341 - 09/16/13 01:03 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Know Yourself yes, but you can't know yourself without listening to teachers who can guide you. Without learning from others more experienced than yourself you are only walking the path of delusion.




These are two of the most dangerous lies anyone has ever told.




Yeah say that to the drug addicts who overdosed and died or the plane pilot who crashed because he didn't learn flying lessons well enough.

If you don't take advice or teaching from somewhere it only means you are proud and stupid... I'm not saying you shouldn't think for yourself, that's the point you should already know what to listen to and what not to. If you don't listen to anyone then you are way past lost.

Everyone learns from someone, you yourself are the result of what another person has taught you or said. You just picked it up because you personally felt it was important.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 01:13 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18847352 - 09/16/13 01:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Why did you edit your above post to remove the passage where Jesus said that the Father was within him?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18847361 - 09/16/13 01:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Why did you edit your above post to remove the passage where Jesus said that the Father was within him?





Because Scripture is hard to interpret and people in here might be harmed trying to interpret it.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18847368 - 09/16/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Then why did you edit the other post in which you pointed out (quite sensibly) that it's very hard to know if any given teacher is telling the truth?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18847413 - 09/16/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Then why did you edit the other post in which you pointed out (quite sensibly) that it's very hard to know if any given teacher is telling the truth?




I don't know why do you ask? It is hard to know if anyone is telling the truth that's why I posted that verse of James chapter 3 talking about the Wisdom of God. There are different kinds of wisdom out there, some of it is earthly, some is even demonic, and some is heavenly or spiritual... from God.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 01:45 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior] * 1
    #18847441 - 09/16/13 01:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I ask because Jesus tells me that you're on the windup and you edit your posts to remove evidence of you contradicting yourself.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18847448 - 09/16/13 01:59 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
I ask because Jesus tells me that you're on the windup and you edit your posts to remove evidence of you contradicting yourself.




Is it Jesus or is it your definition of Jesus?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18847467 - 09/16/13 02:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't believe in Jesus.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18847528 - 09/16/13 03:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
I don't believe in Jesus.




Then why did you quote him?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18847556 - 09/16/13 03:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18848180 - 09/16/13 09:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: viktor]
    #18848825 - 09/16/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
I didn't.



Quote:

viktor said:
There is only one faith, and it's within. What is without is only a set of guidelines for the confused to learn to know themselves. The multiplicity of lies necessitates a multiplicity of outer faiths. But you either know yourself or you live forever in fear and delusion.

Consult the Book of Luke 17:20-21.




Yes you did you said to read the book of Luke.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18848833 - 09/16/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Well that's where the Trinity doctrine/theory comes into play. Many places in the Bible refer to Jesus as God, but it also has the Father being God as well. If Jesus is the "Son of God" as it says, then it means he is equal with God even John's Gospel says that,




The entire principle of the teachings is that everyone is equal as a componenet of God and that every person is a son of God.

The only difference Jesus has to the next person (who is also the son of God) is that the Holy Spirit shone through him more pure than it seemingly did anyone else that allowed him to see through the smokescreen of material doctrine.


Quote:


John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, β€œI and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, β€œMany good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, β€œFor a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”



The Trinity is a doctrine that says there are 3 different attributes/beings of God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God's activity in the world and in ourselves. The Son is God in the flesh, and the Father is the originator of all that exists "The Father of Lights". Its one God but its three different activities or beings of the same God.




His message was that the Holy Spirit is within all which he urged people to seek within themselves and follow to discover that they too are God.

There was no suggested high and mighty.  Just the almighty that encompasses all.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18848877 - 09/16/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
I didn't.



Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Well that's where the Trinity doctrine/theory comes into play. Many places in the Bible refer to Jesus as God, but it also has the Father being God as well. If Jesus is the "Son of God" as it says, then it means he is equal with God even John's Gospel says that,




The entire principle of the teachings is that everyone is equal as a componenet of God and that every person is a son of God.

The only difference Jesus has to the next person (who is also the son of God) is that the Holy Spirit shone through him more pure than it seemingly did anyone else that allowed him to see through the smokescreen of material doctrine.


Quote:


John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, β€œI and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, β€œMany good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, β€œFor a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”



The Trinity is a doctrine that says there are 3 different attributes/beings of God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God's activity in the world and in ourselves. The Son is God in the flesh, and the Father is the originator of all that exists "The Father of Lights". Its one God but its three different activities or beings of the same God.




His message was that the Holy Spirit is within all which he urged people to seek within themselves and follow to discover that they too are God.

There was no suggested high and mighty.  Just the almighty that encompasses all.




If you're God then why do you need to go to the doctor everytime you get sick? Nobody can become like God without Christ.

This idea that you can become God without Jesus is complete bull. Jesus was God and man and if you do not have Jesus you can never become divine. It wouldn't be possible.



Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 12:26 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18848891 - 09/16/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If I was Jesus I would of jumped into an icy grave with a WWJD bracelet on to preserve my mortal existence.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18849017 - 09/16/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
If you're God then why do you need to go to the doctor everytime you get sick?




The spiritual totality is God.  The separated components are so because they are completely oblivious or ignorant of the connection.

It doesn't matter what's going on in the illusion.  It's riding on the law of duality and it's imperfect state is apt. Whilst the disconenction persists, so does the illusion, which is a suffering in it's entirety as a consequence for having disconnected.

In Laymans terms, you need to go to the doctor when you get sick because you are playing a game, as a separated entity from God, in which you need to go to the doctor when you get sick.

Quote:


This idea that you can become God without Jesus is complete bull. Jesus was God and man and if you do not have Jesus you can never become divine. How would it be possible?





The "idea" is that you need to awaken to being a separated, equal part of God (as everyone else is) so that you can reunite with the true almighty consciousness.

You don't become God through Jesus.  You become reunited with God through the Holy Spirit (which Jesus was a material embodiment of in it's purest form serving only as an ally).


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/16/13 01:09 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18849464 - 09/16/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
If you're God then why do you need to go to the doctor everytime you get sick?




The spiritual totality is God.  The separated components are so because they are completely oblivious or ignorant of the connection.

It doesn't matter what's going on in the illusion.  It's riding on the law of duality and it's imperfect state is apt. Whilst the disconenction persists, so does the illusion, which is a suffering in it's entirety as a consequence for having disconnected.

In Laymans terms, you need to go to the doctor when you get sick because you are playing a game, as a separated entity from God, in which you need to go to the doctor when you get sick.

Quote:


This idea that you can become God without Jesus is complete bull. Jesus was God and man and if you do not have Jesus you can never become divine. How would it be possible?





The "idea" is that you need to awaken to being a separated, equal part of God (as everyone else is) so that you can reunite with the true almighty consciousness.

You don't become God through Jesus.  You become reunited with God through the Holy Spirit (which Jesus was a material embodiment of in it's purest form serving only as an ally).




Okay but how does one become reunited to God without Jesus Christ? I don't mean the Holy Spirit I mean the Man Christ Jesus. The point is that he really is who he said he is in the Gospel. The "Way, Truth and Life." If you read the Gospels with any kind of comprehension it would be obvious that Jesus was not a Holy Spirit as you say but rather a human being who was Divine with the same divinity as God was and was God in the flesh. And if he had not performed the miracles that he did we would have no way of attaining the Holy Spirit or becoming united with God. Union with God presupposes that there is a way for God to dwell within us, it does not come naturally. The body must have God inside it. It is not possible for this to happen without the Body of Christ having died on the cross and then risen again from the dead. Without this it would be nearly impossible for the Holy Spirit to enter a person, at least with any kind of real power. You just don't get something from nothing there has to be a concrete reason for why and how you can have the Holy Spirit inside of you, you cannot just wish for it to be so or think it so.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18849592 - 09/16/13 03:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Jesus wasn't the holy spirit. ("The" meaning there is only One).

He was flesh and blood, but someone that had crystal clear scope of the spirit within him.

The Holy Spirit did not derive from the crucifixion / ressurection.  The spirit is God given. It's an essence which has been and always will be.  It's the footprint from the source where man once was before the separation.

Jesus' teachings were based upon having people find the Holy Spirit within long before he was crucified.

The crucifixion symbolizes surrender; laying down the "self", the ego, the material attachment, to the essence of the spirit within as rite of passage.

With the flesh and blood of Jesus no longer of this world he is now part of the Holy Spirit (as he's now One with God) by which he functions as an available and relatable ally within that spirit.


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/16/13 03:43 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18849976 - 09/16/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Jesus wasn't the holy spirit. ("The" meaning there is only One).

He was flesh and blood, but someone that had crystal clear scope of the spirit within him.

The Holy Spirit did not derive from the crucifixion / ressurection.  The spirit is God given. It's an essence which has been and always will be.  It's the footprint from the source where man once was before the separation.

Jesus' teachings were based upon having people find the Holy Spirit within long before he was crucified.

The crucifixion symbolizes surrender; laying down the "self", the ego, the material attachment, to the essence of the spirit within as rite of passage.

With the flesh and blood of Jesus no longer of this world he is now part of the Holy Spirit (as he's now One with God) by which he functions as an available and relatable ally within that spirit.





You really need to go back and read the Gospel (Gr. Good News) again because you obviously missed its meaning. Where did you get these teachings from? You can't just pick and choose the verses you want to listen to and ignore all the others, or interpret the Scripture in such an irrational way as to say the crucifixion was nothing but a symbol, that is not even using reason. Read the text for what it is not what you presume it to be. Like I said you can't really understand it without good teachers so who are you listening to?
And is the teaching from God or is it from Men? Even Jesus said in John that he did not speak from himself but from God, that God gave him his teachings.

Most of this gnostic stuff is nothing but the teachings of men. Man made religion based on ideas that have been passed down from sources that are questionable. Claiming a separation of spirit from matter is a blasphemy. Jesus symbolizes a full union of spirit and matter, God and Man. He does not separate spirit from matter but came to unite spirit with matter. Gnostics teach that there is separation of the two which is a deviation from sound teachings.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 04:28 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18850153 - 09/16/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You really need to go back and read the Gospel (Gr. Good News) again because you obviously missed its meaning.




Quote:

And is the teaching from God or is it from Men?




If you instruct to "Go back and read the gospel" defining it as the basis of truth, you should be posing the above question to yourself.  You shouldn't assume I've even read it.

You misunderstand the separation in its context. It involves spiritual detachment from God and manifestation into physical body.

Separation of spirit from physical body (which you refer to) is the entire point of Jesus' teachings and represents the entire and ultimate goal.  It's as remote from blasphemy as it could possibly be. 

Jesus does not represent full union of body and spirit. He represents the complete unimportance of body and the complete importance of spirit to excel to where spirit is all and all is in union as One.

Quote:

Like I said you can't really understand it without good teachers so who are you listening to?




I'd prefer not to throw a "re-read" back at you, but the answer has already been given.


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/16/13 05:51 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18850771 - 09/16/13 07:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

You really need to go back and read the Gospel (Gr. Good News) again because you obviously missed its meaning.




Quote:

And is the teaching from God or is it from Men?




If you instruct to "Go back and read the gospel" defining it as the basis of truth, you should be posing the above question to yourself.  You shouldn't assume I've even read it.

You misunderstand the separation in its context. It involves spiritual detachment from God and manifestation into physical body.

Separation of spirit from physical body (which you refer to) is the entire point of Jesus' teachings and represents the entire and ultimate goal.  It's as remote from blasphemy as it could possibly be. 

Jesus does not represent full union of body and spirit. He represents the complete unimportance of body and the complete importance of spirit to excel to where spirit is all and all is in union as One.

Quote:

Like I said you can't really understand it without good teachers so who are you listening to?




I'd prefer not to throw a "re-read" back at you, but the answer has already been given.





Okay why don't you believe in what St Paul said here about that?

"Beware lest anyone captures you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"

Collosians 2:8-9 
Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

You really need to go back and read the Gospel (Gr. Good News) again because you obviously missed its meaning.




Quote:

And is the teaching from God or is it from Men?




If you instruct to "Go back and read the gospel" defining it as the basis of truth, you should be posing the above question to yourself.  You shouldn't assume I've even read it.

You misunderstand the separation in its context. It involves spiritual detachment from God and manifestation into physical body.

Separation of spirit from physical body (which you refer to) is the entire point of Jesus' teachings and represents the entire and ultimate goal.  It's as remote from blasphemy as it could possibly be. 

Jesus does not represent full union of body and spirit. He represents the complete unimportance of body and the complete importance of spirit to excel to where spirit is all and all is in union as One.

Quote:

Like I said you can't really understand it without good teachers so who are you listening to?




I'd prefer not to throw a "re-read" back at you, but the answer has already been given.




If you've never read the Gospel why call yourself a Christian (and you are a Christian right?). If you're not a Christian though what the hell are you some kind of new age blah blah man?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18851108 - 09/16/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, β€œI and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, β€œMany good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, β€œFor a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”





I think he was saying that we are all one with god, god is within us, not someone outside of us. (Because that would be an idol, which is another violation of the 10 commandments)

I don't think he thought he was special at all, and he wanted to teach us the love that is already within all of us to find. Gods don't die by stones or crosses afaik,


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18851527 - 09/16/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I have multiple perspectives to use for looking at Jesus, and if I consider the Christian perspective then I think he must have been Satan, and that is only according to the Christian perspective of Jesus.

Do I really think he was Satan? No, I think he was a bright man if he existed as was teaching many of the same things that others before him had already taught but to a different audience.

The Golden Rules has been said in so many different ways, it has nothing to do with jesus by himself. Love and forgiveness goes with metta and anatta, all which was before Jesus's time.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18851909 - 09/16/13 11:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

"Jesus does not represent full union of body and spirit. He represents the complete unimportance of body and the complete importance of spirit to excel to where spirit is all and all is in union as One."

Yup
We should love our soul, and appreciate our bodies
our soul is a gift from god

we shouldn't worship our bodies only, flesh and bones, but we should enjoy it while having it
our bodies are the temple of god

the best way to love the soul, which is the most holy gift we have, is to live in gods name


my personal thoughts are that the body we have is a mirror of our souls state, if we love god, we love our body too and appreciate it, for it is the temple of god
appreciate as in care what you put in it, love it etc. (moderation, care for it)
you can know if a person loves god from how they look often
if they don't love themselves  they have lost their connection with god partially/fully


1 Corinthians 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

God manufactured a body for you through the agency of your parents, but God alone manufactured your soul in EP and imputed it to your body at the moment of birth. Therefore the soul is of much more importance.
ROM 9:22


Edited by lessismore (09/17/13 12:40 AM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18853477 - 09/17/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Okay why don't you believe in what St Paul said here about that?

"Beware lest anyone captures you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"




The message states: Be cautious of the indoctrinated and depend on Jesus as he sees the Holy Spirit with pure vision.  Nothing contriadictory to what I've stated.

"Bodily" simply refers to Jesus being flesh and blood which he was.

The fact that spirit is united with body is the consequence of the separation.  It is not a desired state (by anything but the ego).  You only have the Holy Spirit in yourself because it's a reminant of once was like a stone in the crevice of your shoe after you've been hill walking.

The goal, as stated already is to meld spirit back with the source: God.


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18857256 - 09/18/13 09:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I really appreciate david ickes interpretations of where all of these religions originate. (pre sumerian) Serpent worship. Etc...
the majority of words given to describe "God"(s) (often plural) in the old testament or in any ancient writings are synonymous/deriviites of snake/serpent/etc. At the roots of all culture exist this worship. whether you realize it or not. the way youve been taught to pray, the way you end your prayers, the traditions & religious practices.... everyone is brainwashed & prideful & content in their own. slaves to their illusions...the blind leading the blind.


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For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...



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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18885089 - 09/24/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Okay why don't you believe in what St Paul said here about that?

"Beware lest anyone captures you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"




The message states: Be cautious of the indoctrinated and depend on Jesus as he sees the Holy Spirit with pure vision.  Nothing contriadictory to what I've stated.

"Bodily" simply refers to Jesus being flesh and blood which he was.

The fact that spirit is united with body is the consequence of the separation.  It is not a desired state (by anything but the ego).  You only have the Holy Spirit in yourself because it's a reminant of once was like a stone in the crevice of your shoe after you've been hill walking.

The goal, as stated already is to meld spirit back with the source: God.




So it says, "Pray to jesus, instead of god, give your soul to him instead of sending it to god."

What was the first Commandment again, and why should it be voided?


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18887298 - 09/24/13 11:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18888159 - 09/25/13 07:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So it says, "Pray to jesus, instead of god, give your soul to him instead of sending it to god."

What was the first Commandment again, and why should it be voided?




If you can elaborate and explain how your reply relates to my reply I can comment.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #18891772 - 09/25/13 10:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If the goal is to meld spirit back with god, where does it state that jesus is needed to do that in the bible?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18892647 - 09/26/13 04:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think it says that Jeebus said "No man cometh to the father but through me"


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Icelander]
    #18892676 - 09/26/13 05:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Didn't he speak through universal 'I' ?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #18893362 - 09/26/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HeartAndMind said:
Didn't he speak through universal 'I' ?




Yes. Those references to coming to God through Christ, is a theology borrowed from Neo-Platonism, where the original Holy Trinity concept derives from. The Unmanifested ONE = the Father, Nous = the Son, the World Soul [Anima Mundi] = the Holy Spirit. Now the original Orthodox Christians maintained that these emanations emerge like a 'telescope' and humans go to God, by collapsing the telescoping emanations in the reverse order. The Western Catholics argued that the Holy Spirit proceeds not from the Father, but from the Father and Son - a triangulation rather than a 'linear' procession. This difference became known as the Filioque, and the Eastern and Western churches actually went to war about the doctrine.

At any rate, the Logos or the Nous, is the mind that enters back into God, The individual soul is a further declension from the World Soul from which it derives. Our individual souls do not go to God, hence it becomes imperative to have "the mind of Christ," we have to Realize our Universal Nature as did Jesus. These statements, made by John, do not make sense otherwise. It is not about asking an imaginary Jesus image on a throne for help, it is about assuming the god-role oneself. "Know ye not that ye are gods?" - Psalm 82; John 10:34. Notice the small 'g' in "gods." It does not say 'God.'


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/26/13 06:52 PM)


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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18893570 - 09/26/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Very interesting :thumbup:


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