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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: yeah] * 1
    #18791613 - 09/02/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

yeah said:
What if OP was a fag

(Hypothetically of course)




What if yeah got banned, would S&M lose anything?

(Literally of course)


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Offlineyeah
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18791719 - 09/02/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

brooo what if like we are all born high but like when u smoke weed u just become sober

OMG THATS SUCH A SPIRITUAL IDEA BRO

:highdog:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18791871 - 09/02/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Then do you think that Jesus was anything more than a man? Maybe at a higher caliber of intelligence than his peers at the time, but a man none-the-less?

Or what do you mean by "Christ or Christ Consciousness" ?

I don't think we have any real evidence that Jesus really ever existed, do we?

Because you said that: "Christ means 'anointed,' as with chrism, oil, whence the term. To anoint kings in Israel was a symbolic act, imputing the 'divine right of kingship,' which lends authority. Iesous however, denied any worldly kingship, but claimed to be a king of a spiritual kingdom, according to the story lines. "

But you also said that Jesus was in it, so how can he be in chrism, oil? And how is that relevant to anything? It seems like you are saying it means one thing and then using it in a completely different context, but I am probably missing something.

:confused:

(BTW, thanks for posting, I generally find your posts quite informative.)




Christ means anointed by chrism. The act of anointing symbolized a sort of crowning, as a king, pouring oil on one's head. Christ consciousness is the biblical "mind of Christ," which believers hope to receive by grace. It is the consciousness or "mind" which is the Logos itself. In the history of thought, the Logos is the first emanation from the Unmanifested Godhead. In ancient Egypt, Ra or the later hybridized Amun-Ra might be the Unmanifest Godhead, and Thoth was the 'tongue' or 'word' of God, the Logos in Greek. Iesous the Christ was 'a man anointed by God' according to the 3 synoptic (same-view) gospels: Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Much later (90-120 CE) John's gospel wrote about "the Word" in the first few lines called the Prologue (Pro-Logos). In John's gospel, Iesous was not 'a man anointed by God,' but rather, 'God clothed in flesh.' This latter idea over-shadowed the earlier notion of a man anointed by God, and reeked of Greek mythology wherein it was common for God (Greek: Zeus, Latin: Deus) to impregnate a mortal woman and create a demigod- a god-man like Heracles, Dionysius, and others. This is a major reason why Jews did not accept this doctrine. The Jews had their own mythology, and in it, God never takes form, human or otherwise. Theophanies are angelic beings (Seraphim, Nephilim, Cherubim, etc.) - pillars of flame, burning bushes, etc. are not God.

Iesous was a man if he existed historically at all. The various birth, life, death, and resurrection motifs are lifted practically verbatim from the Egyptian Coffin and Pyramid texts. The person was written to be the focus of numerous prophesies in the Tenach (OT). Myth is very important in the psycho-history of humankind. We need myth, and they are still being produced by culture and the media. Myth derives from collective levels of the human unconscious, the Collective Unconscious, or Archetypal Mind. Iesous is a major embodiment of the central symbol of the Collective Unconscious - the higher Self. He represents generic man, and his dual nature speaks for every human being. We are all a composite of temporality and Eternity, although Iesous is depicted as being a unique specie of being, which would NOT be relevant to any of us. Iesous is the archetype, the paradigm for all of us. Most of us do not live up to the Truth of this and act in godly ways, but prefer to act like mere mammals, some more undeveloped and primitive than others. Some humanoids behave in truly reptilian ways, cold-hearted, blood-thirsty, and little more than instinctive creatures. Iesous the Christ symbolizes the epitome of fully human development IMO.




:thumbup: Another well written and informative post.

So if these are just metaphors (which I think we agree), then is it the promise of an after-life that persuades people to take it so literally? Iesuos doesn't seem much different from Buddha or Lao Tzu or any other profit (man ahead of their time), nor is he that much different from Aristotle, and their immortality or the "spirit" of them remains today through history, however their followers generally die with very little if any remembrance by human kind, they live on through the beliefs they imparted on humanity through tradition for better or worse. So why would a man prefer to immortalize another rather than himself?

If you look at a spirit as the essence of their teachings then maybe there is some truth to a psuedo-immortality if their essence is still around today, but the immortality isn't for the followers, only for the creators of the following.

I'm thinking that if Iesuos was really a man, rather than a character in a fable, his idea's weren't really that original and were preceded by the likes of Confucious, Socrates, Aristotle, Lao Tzu, Mencius, Buddha, to name a few, (whom  live on today without the need for divinity in most cases) and that it is more than likely that he ripped them off, or that Constantine and his cohorts did and gave credit to an imaginary man.

What if any of their teachings are really original?

Maybe people simply want something silly to believe in to alleviate their death anxiety, for nothing more than comfort, truth be damned.

One thing that I am curious about is if there is any evidence of the biblical version of Moses liberating the slaves from Egypt, such as the changing of Gods to a god by Akhenaten, or is all that completely unrelated, and too without evidence or merit of such an event having occured?


Edited by teknix (09/02/13 08:39 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18792675 - 09/02/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I personally believe that much if not most of the Tenach is myth. Moses dies before he could enter the Promised Land, so who wrote the Five Books of Moses if Moses died and is written about?
The Tenach is about the continuation of the Hebrew people, not about immortality. Neither is the New Testament about immortality. The New Testament is about Eternal Life. Eternal Life is the life of Eternal God, and if "God is Love," then the only thing that exists in God is love, hence the commandment to love. All else perishes. Love, agapΓ©, is more like the Compassion that, along with Wisdom, characterizes the Adi Buddha, the Ultimate Reality in Vajrayana Buddhism (Nyingma school). Immortality, personal continuation, would prove to be Hell. Eternity is not a duration of endless time, it is the absence of time experienced as an ecstatic moment which does not diminish. Paradoxical this is, and language cannot covey it because language is a temporal reality. Our separate witness of Eternity merges with the Absolute Identity and we Realize that we have always been this familiar 'I AM.' Separate identity, fear, name and memory, ecstatically cease. The illusory veils that have kept us from Ultimate Reality, our true nature, vanish. The Real is Realized, the unreal thankfully perishes. No loss, all gain.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18792764 - 09/02/13 11:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So you are referring to Planck time (or a time scale even smaller), in which time has little if any relevance, which is interesting and I can't find a disagreement, but what about the changing of god's which seem to corroborate with the Christians or biblical story of Moses?

I don't find it to be at all paradoxical, for if there was a god controlling everything, he/she/it would have to move extremely fast, and almost without regard to time. (Especially if she/he/it were to keep any sort of consistency that has been revealed through the physics of the universe.)

Another question which is a bit of a tangeant is, have you ever gone by the pseudonym Vmarco?

(P.S. I think some people might find you intimidating to talk too considering how well articulated you are, maybe it isn't right of me to ask this of you but if you were to tone it down a bit I think people would be more apt to respond to your posts and you could get a lot more of your points across, which I find to be pretty valuable.)

Shit, I'm almost intimidated by you! But not quite :tongue:

Just a :heart: to :heart:, with no ill intention.

I really do appreciate you bro, you helped me a lot along my spiritual path. (and still do)


Edited by teknix (09/03/13 12:07 AM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18792889 - 09/03/13 12:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

But I think I concur, it isn't that Jesus was evil, it is that man used him for evil purposes.


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OfflineGoldenArrow
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18793038 - 09/03/13 02:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18794081 - 09/03/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So you are referring to Planck time (or a time scale even smaller), in which time has little if any relevance, which is interesting and I can't find a disagreement, but what about the changing of god's which seem to corroborate with the Christians or biblical story of Moses?

I don't find it to be at all paradoxical, for if there was a god controlling everything, he/she/it would have to move extremely fast, and almost without regard to time. (Especially if she/he/it were to keep any sort of consistency that has been revealed through the physics of the universe.)

Another question which is a bit of a tangeant is, have you ever gone by the pseudonym Vmarco?

(P.S. I think some people might find you intimidating to talk too considering how well articulated you are, maybe it isn't right of me to ask this of you but if you were to tone it down a bit I think people would be more apt to respond to your posts and you could get a lot more of your points across, which I find to be pretty valuable.)

Shit, I'm almost intimidated by you! But not quite :tongue:

Just a :heart: to :heart:, with no ill intention.

I really do appreciate you bro, you helped me a lot along my spiritual path. (and still do)




Never been Vmarco, always been MtG.

I appreciate your candor, and I have been accused of intimidation before, but it is not my intention, neither do I use long strings of multisyllabic words in an attempt to appear pedantic. Yesterday our female renter came over with her monthly rent. She was a student counselee of mine when she was 13, now she is 22, 5'10", beautiful, voluptuous Dominican. In stiletto heels she's 6'3" tall. She is one of the prettiest, and sweetest young females I've ever known. I used to counsel boys who were love-sick about her in middle school. :lol: She told us that she intimidates men and women alike, but I know her. It's her appearance, not her intention. Simiarly, I hold academic degrees in philosophy, theology, and a PhD in human development & clinical psychology. I'm 60 years old and have been an adjunct professor in two universities. Perhaps you need to pick up a dictionary from time-to-time. I certainly need to do that and I don't think twice about doing so. I want to know and understand others, and I have no time to feel stupid because I already KNOW I'm stupid in more fields than I can name. Even in the fields in which I excel, my FB buddy Tim Freke is 10 years younger than me and he has published 30 books. Aside from my doctoral dissertation, I'm still working on finishing one book! It's all relative my man.

Thanks for the complimentary words. I have set out to help others as the horizontal corollary to the vertical insights I have been blessed with.

I don't understand the beginning or your post. Planck time still operates within physical parameters that enjoin gravity, the speed of light in vacua, etc. The Eternal Present is atemporal. It is not a theoretical construct. It partakes of no physics but is ontologically prior to physics, which is to say, metaphysical. Physics occurred at 10 to the -43 seconds ago, IN newly created time. The Eternal Present is atemporal. It exists Eternally and is Present to human experience. Peoples of the Book call it God. Buddhists call it Emptiness since it is unmanifested. Aristotle called it the "Unmoved Mover." There is no change of this Absolute, there is only a change in human concepts about it. The ancient Hebrew's first had a local mountain deity which, in the course of humanity's own development, began to be conceived of as the Creator of the entire universe (even though they had no idea of the scope of their universe). Read Harold Bloom's Jesus and Yahweh if you are interested in a comparison between the Hebrew Yahweh and the Father of the New Testament. The concepts are very different despite the centuries old attempt to turn the capricious and genocidal deity into a benign father.



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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18796030 - 09/03/13 07:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The "john" who wrote the passages in that link is clearly not the same as "john the baptist" biblical author


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18796062 - 09/03/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
The "john" who wrote the passages in that link is clearly not the same as "john the baptist" biblical author




I was thinking it was being insinuated as well?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18796470 - 09/03/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
The "john" who wrote the passages in that link is clearly not the same as "john the baptist" biblical author




John the Baptist was not a biblical author. In fact none of the gospel authors put their names on the gospels that are known as Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John. There was no punctuation, or capitalization either. The names were later insertions.


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18797966 - 09/04/13 04:21 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Whoever it was, the passages in the link are nonsensical and fabricated. Clearly


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18798271 - 09/04/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Just like most of the bible was, :o


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18798926 - 09/04/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
Whoever it was, the passages in the link are nonsensical and fabricated. Clearly




Perhaps you are simply unfamiliar with the language and value of myth. Everyone is informed by some mythic material, even if one is unconscious of it.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18799346 - 09/04/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Just like most of the bible was, :o




The Bible is not a historical document, even though historical events are written about. Often, there are many inconsistencies. However, biblical writings are midrash, by-and-large, and if one does not know what midrash is, then one will not understand much of what is intelligible. The canonical Bible draws from sources that are over a thousand years apart. The Hebrew people changed profoundly over that span, and those changes are reflected in the nature of the midrashic stories - how God was being conceptualized and illustrated through spiritual stories that were never intended by ancient minds to be read as accurate journalism.

Frankly, I don't get what people gripe about with regard to biblical writings. Ancient forms of writing need to be explained to post-modern people or else they just don't understand why, for whom, when, and under what actual historical circumstances certain books were written. Only a total rube reads the Bible as literal history.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18800978 - 09/04/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think the problem with it is that if you need a priest or a guy with a Ph.D to interpret it correctly there's little value to most people in it. Anything you claim about the truth of the Bible can be contradicted by someone else, and there's no way of knowing which of the tens of thousands of interpretations are correct or even valuable.

c.f. "biblical writings are midrash, by-and-large, and if one does not know what midrash is, then one will not understand much of what is intelligible."

What percentage of people do you reckon knows what midrash is? I don't think I've ever heard the term before today. If what you say is true and that one does not understand much of the bible without knowing then one must rely on someone else's interpretation, which usually means someone else's agenda.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18801596 - 09/04/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Just like most of the bible was, :o




The Bible is not a historical document, even though historical events are written about. Often, there are many inconsistencies. However, biblical writings are midrash, by-and-large, and if one does not know what midrash is, then one will not understand much of what is intelligible. The canonical Bible draws from sources that are over a thousand years apart. The Hebrew people changed profoundly over that span, and those changes are reflected in the nature of the midrashic stories - how God was being conceptualized and illustrated through spiritual stories that were never intended by ancient minds to be read as accurate journalism.

Frankly, I don't get what people gripe about with regard to biblical writings. Ancient forms of writing need to be explained to post-modern people or else they just don't understand why, for whom, when, and under what actual historical circumstances certain books were written. Only a total rube reads the Bible as literal history.




Well, you still haven't answered about Akhenaten switching gods and the seeming corroboration with the story of Moses.

The bible also seems to be written as if it was a historical document. Esp. when the lineages are included. I don't take it literally but I see how some might be inclined to.

I don't take it literal because for one I know about science and the contradictions a literal interpretation poses, I also know that there are other cultures who had very similar stories that came before the bible, and that the Romans loved their deities and often used them to tell moral truths, and even for entertainment purposes, and that the Romans were in charge when the bible was put together. Also that their culture would have influence on what was put in and how it was put in.


Edited by teknix (09/04/13 11:45 PM)


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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: teknix]
    #18801859 - 09/05/13 02:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?

Isn't the first commandment that "Thou shalt not have any other god before me." ?

Then comes along Jesus, who is put before god to pray too and send your soul too, on behalf of God . . .

Seems like the Christians could have been duped by Satan.

Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.

Seems like it could have been the ultimate deception.

What do you think.

(Hypothetically of course)




Its funny/sad that you do now have Christians say--when you point out to them some of the vil actions caused by Christian belief, like the Inquisition, wars, etc--they'll say, oh that isn't Christianity, it is Satan masquerading as Christ, and they will also mean infiltrating the Catholic Church and even being that church etc etc

So then i'd say, so who ARE the original Christians then? As fas as I am aware it was the Essenes. But when you look at their belief it was dualistic, and they believed there was a War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness.

So stop right there screeeeeeeeeeeeeeetchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

THAT is the roots of a duality that can grow into 'Jesus ('all goody woody') versus Satan' ('one all-bad fuker'). OF a thousand cartoons with a person who got an angel on one shoulder telling him what to do and a devil on the other shoulder telling him what to do which  is the oppo-site of the other and vice verse. Duality.

Psychological dissociation from you shadow-side, if you will excuse my psychobabble for moment.

Isn't THAT a big deep root cause of the voracious savagery against women etc in the religious Inquisition where they associate what they deny of themselves onto those they fear?

So what about 'Satanists' who seem to embrace 'the shadow'? I think that they keep to the same duality. You read their religion and it is the same worldview as their antagonist. Just the inverse is all


Edited by zzripz (09/05/13 02:25 AM)


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Invisiblejack_straw2208
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: GoldenArrow]
    #18801930 - 09/05/13 03:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GoldenArrow said:
:threadmonitor:




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Invisibleteknix
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Re: What if Jesus was really Satan? [Re: zzripz]
    #18802104 - 09/05/13 04:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Hypothetically, if Satan is the master of deception and his goal is to get your soul, then what better way to re-route souls from God than to pretend to be his son and convince everyone to worship him instead of God?

Isn't the first commandment that "Thou shalt not have any other god before me." ?

Then comes along Jesus, who is put before god to pray too and send your soul too, on behalf of God . . .

Seems like the Christians could have been duped by Satan.

Just look at all the death and attrocities caused by their beliefs throughout the ages, and all the souls that have been re-routed from God to Jesus.

Seems like it could have been the ultimate deception.

What do you think.

(Hypothetically of course)




Its funny/sad that you do now have Christians say--when you point out to them some of the vil actions caused by Christian belief, like the Inquisition, wars, etc--they'll say, oh that isn't Christianity, it is Satan masquerading as Christ, and they will also mean infiltrating the Catholic Church and even being that church etc etc

So then i'd say, so who ARE the original Christians then? As fas as I am aware it was the Essenes. But when you look at their belief it was dualistic, and they believed there was a War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness.

So stop right there screeeeeeeeeeeeeeetchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

THAT is the roots of a duality that can grow into 'Jesus ('all goody woody') versus Satan' ('one all-bad fuker'). OF a thousand cartoons with a person who got an angel on one shoulder telling him what to do and a devil on the other shoulder telling him what to do which  is the oppo-site of the other and vice verse. Duality.

Psychological dissociation from you shadow-side, if you will excuse my psychobabble for moment.

Isn't THAT a big deep root cause of the voracious savagery against women etc in the religious Inquisition where they associate what they deny of themselves onto those they fear?

So what about 'Satanists' who seem to embrace 'the shadow'? I think that they keep to the same duality. You read their religion and it is the same worldview as their antagonist. Just the inverse is all




You wanna know what's even more sad? Most of my family is Christian and I am seemingly helpless to convince them otherwise.

Except my mom, she reads the bible but doesn't think of Jesus as God, so I'm happy about that.

I think it was the very argument in the op that got her thinking.

So maybe it will get others thinking.


Edited by teknix (09/05/13 05:38 AM)


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