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OfflineSkydyn
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Registered: 03/19/13
Posts: 16
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right?
    #18787787 - 09/02/13 12:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hi everyone. I've come here to ask about something that I feel is an extremely common notion, but one that is rarely ever talked about.

In the past two years, my group of 6ish close friends all started smoking marijuana, and subsequently using psychedelic drugs. As a result, most of us have all come to understand this idea which we refer to as "the thing." It's this extremely abstract notion, incommunicable in its pure form, that seems to describe most things and their interactions. A more concrete version of this notion is described by the notion of the so-called "hero's journey" or "heroic monomyth" popularized by Joseph Campbell. More abstractly, it's a cyclical or oscillating pattern between opposite things that recurs, and is sort of embedded within itself. Like I said, I can't really describe the idea, but I suspect that many here will know what I'm talking about.

I have occasionally encountered other people outside of my friend who understand this idea. Some of them have used psychedelic drugs and come to understanding this notion in that way, and others have come to understand it without ever touching drugs. The interesting thing about meeting people who understand this idea is that they always understand it exactly as I do. Everyone who I meet who has this notion has the exact same one, and agrees on pretty much every aspect of it.

However, I have been unable to find any information on the internet about this phenomena except for very vague and brief references to what seems like this idea. And whenever people discuss the non-visual effects of psychedelic drugs, everyone just seems to sort of avoid or talk around this notion, for various reasons that I am probably aware of, e.g., you can just keep thinking about it and not get anywhere, or maybe it's the "path to insanity," or that people sometimes think about it and aren't prepared so have a "bad trip," the personal or awkward nature of it, etc. But nonetheless, I would expect this thing to be the most talked about idea on Shroomery, and in discussions about psychedelic drugs in general, but it's just not.

So, uhh, you guys get what I'm talking about, right? If so, please... let's discuss it.


Edited by Skydyn (09/02/13 11:41 AM)


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Offlineheratogwea
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18788006 - 09/02/13 01:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Life.death.rebirth.


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Invisiblesailing
China Cat Sunflower
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Registered: 09/21/11
Posts: 3,534
Loc: United States
Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: heratogwea]
    #18788036 - 09/02/13 01:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)



dont worry, the video is short


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


Edited by sailing (09/02/13 01:58 AM)


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OfflineTurtletotem
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18788158 - 09/02/13 03:16 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hello! Long time lurker, but your post made me want to register so I could tell you that, yes, my friends and I know what you are talking about.
And no, I can't discuss it. It seems to me words are not enough, you know?


--------------------


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn] * 1
    #18788301 - 09/02/13 04:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

However, I have been unable to find any information on the internet about this phenomena except for very vague and brief references to what seems like this idea. And whenever people discuss the non-visual effects of psychedelic drugs, everyone just seems to sort of avoid or talk around this notion, for various reasons that I am probably aware of, e.g., you can just keep thinking about it and not get anywhere, or maybe it's the "path to insanity," or that people sometimes think about it and aren't prepared so have a "bad trip," the personal or awkward nature of it, etc. But nonetheless, I would expect this thing to be the most talked about idea on Shroomery, and in discussions about psychedelic drugs in general, but it's just not.




Yeah, you're talking about one of the (many) aspects of the Tao, the great Way of heaven.  Bring it up here unless it's the right circumstances and people will just disbelieve you, unless they've experienced it directly.  That's built into it.  Lao Tsu said something like this:

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.


Quote that here and see how many people refuse to believe the shoe fits perfectly. :lol:

Keep on trucking. :dancingbear:

You'll find that almost everybody has SOME understanding of this from their life, if you wait for the natural opening to arise before mentioning it.  If you try to force it on them they'll deny it with their dying breath, even as it gives them life. :shrug:

:peace:PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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OfflineBawks
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Turtletotem]
    #18788314 - 09/02/13 04:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

To sum all this up in one sentence: The objective in life is to get as many people as possible to try shrooms (responsibly).


--------------------
Savor the best and embrace the worst


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Registered: 03/13/11
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Bawks]
    #18788578 - 09/02/13 07:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Pretty sure I know where you're going. The idea that all things in life are connected by this pattern? That you could follow the loop down any area of existence and find the same set of principles in effect? Like you said, hard to explain, but it seems to make a whole lot of sense intuitively.


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Invisiblesailing
China Cat Sunflower
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: JacksonMetaller] * 1
    #18788581 - 09/02/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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Offlinegornyhuy
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18789174 - 09/02/13 11:03 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm with ya brother!  Your 3rd eye has been squeegeed! Attempt to talk too much about spirituality and the psychedelic experience here and you'll be mocked for trying to impose your "pretentious rules" on the drug experience.

Dig into Alan Watts, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sri Ramana Maharshi, many modern teachers of non-duality, etc and you'll find the "perennial philosophy" hinted at, pointed at indirectly.  Check out the Urban Guru Cafe podcasts for a really nice set of 100 audio programs from various teachers. Mooji... Sailor Bob Adamson... so many clear voices out there.

I like the way David Carse says it repeatedly in "Perfect Brilliant Stillness" -
"Does Exist. Cannot be expressed."


--------------------
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Invisiblesailing
China Cat Sunflower
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: gornyhuy] * 1
    #18789195 - 09/02/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I have a hard time listening to other teachers of eastern philosophy, alan watts is really the only one that can articulate the concepts in such a clear and precise way. Semantics is an extremely powerful tool, that can convey any message if you know language well enough, watts studied language his whole life and because of that, he can articulate any idea clearly.


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18789249 - 09/02/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

OP, your post is so vague that you could be talking about virtually anything...hmm...maybe that's the point! 

and yeah, I think I know what I think you are talking about.  :crazy2:


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #18789346 - 09/02/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I happen to be researching about this quite deeply. I dont usually like stuff with 'mono' on the front, such as monoculture where all diversity is suppressed by massive slabs of same planting, and you see this same mindset in culture--we are all supposed to be 'normal'--all that

Then nono-tone. who likes that?

dare I say mono-gamy. sticking with one partner for 80 years.

errrm, and then we have the soc-alled monomyth. This is where the 'whiteman' decides that ALL myths of the world in all times MUST fit HIS idea of a monomyth. well I dont buy it. I like to question

Also Campbell's theory was taken up or vice verse by Jung and his theory of the 'Self'

It is all about a 'hero'--usually male who goes through trials and is reborn. But it could be argued that this hero concept is static, and is source of separation from nature


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Invisiblesailing
China Cat Sunflower
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: zzripz]
    #18789362 - 09/02/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Im more of a dualistic pantheist, where the body and spirit reside in separate realms, i've always though monistic pantheism has more to do with the body and spirit being one.


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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OfflineAgentchewy
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Bawks] * 1
    #18789451 - 09/02/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bawks said:
To sum all this up in one sentence: The objective in life is to get as many people as possible to try shrooms (responsibly).





"Once in awhile you're shown the light, in the strangest places, if you look at it right."


--------------------


If I knew the way, I would take you home.


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OfflineSkydyn
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Registered: 03/19/13
Posts: 16
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: gornyhuy]
    #18789455 - 09/02/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

heratogwea said:
Life.death.rebirth.



Yeah, but it's more abstract than that. That's more concrete than just the pure idea.

Quote:

sailing said:
dont worry, the video is short



Yeah, I have thought about that and it's one of the implications of the thing.

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Yeah, you're talking about one of the (many) aspects of the Tao, the great Way of heaven.  Bring it up here unless it's the right circumstances and people will just disbelieve you, unless they've experienced it directly.  That's built into it.  Lao Tsu said something like this:

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.


Quote that here and see how many people refuse to believe the shoe fits perfectly. :lol:

Keep on trucking. :dancingbear:

You'll find that almost everybody has SOME understanding of this from their life, if you wait for the natural opening to arise before mentioning it.  If you try to force it on them they'll deny it with their dying breath, even as it gives them life. :shrug:

:peace:PS



I have looked into various religions from before the era of monotheism, and they all seem to have this notion embedded in them. I know a schizophrenic, nontheistic Pagan who gets the thing so well, and Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, etc. are littered with references to the thing. Can you elaborate a little more on why you see it specifically as Taoism? (if that is indeed the case)

Quote:

Bawks said:
To sum all this up in one sentence: The objective in life is to get as many people as possible to try shrooms (responsibly).



Yeah, but I wonder how ethical that is. This notion really isn't all fun and games. It sorta makes things feel boring and empty and predictable.

Quote:

JacksonMetaller said:
Pretty sure I know where you're going. The idea that all things in life are connected by this pattern? That you could follow the loop down any area of existence and find the same set of principles in effect? Like you said, hard to explain, but it seems to make a whole lot of sense intuitively.



Yeah, that's what I mean. So abstract that it's very hard to describe.

Quote:

sailing said:




What about it?

Quote:

gornyhuy said:
I'm with ya brother!  Your 3rd eye has been squeegeed! Attempt to talk too much about spirituality and the psychedelic experience here and you'll be mocked for trying to impose your "pretentious rules" on the drug experience.

Dig into Alan Watts, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sri Ramana Maharshi, many modern teachers of non-duality, etc and you'll find the "perennial philosophy" hinted at, pointed at indirectly.  Check out the Urban Guru Cafe podcasts for a really nice set of 100 audio programs from various teachers. Mooji... Sailor Bob Adamson... so many clear voices out there.

I like the way David Carse says it repeatedly in "Perfect Brilliant Stillness" -
"Does Exist. Cannot be expressed."



Non-duality? But yeah, I'll check it out.


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Invisiblesailing
China Cat Sunflower
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18789497 - 09/02/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Skydyn said:
Quote:

sailing said:




What about it?




thats the pattern


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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Invisiblesailing
China Cat Sunflower
Male


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing] * 1
    #18789500 - 09/02/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I really like this video


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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OfflineSomeGuyX
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18789786 - 09/02/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sailing said:


dont worry, the video is short




Damn, so true.


--------------------


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18789788 - 09/02/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I have looked into various religions from before the era of monotheism, and they all seem to have this notion embedded in them. I know a schizophrenic, nontheistic Pagan who gets the thing so well, and Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, etc. are littered with references to the thing. Can you elaborate a little more on why you see it specifically as Taoism? (if that is indeed the case)




It's not "Taoism" it's not "Buddhism" it's not "perennial philosophy" it's not "monotheism" it's none of these things.  It's not any kind of religion - all religions are bullshit.  There's nothing you or anybody can say about it that explains it in any way.  That's why when you sense it you go :awesomenod: and everybody else goes :awesomenod: back and says "yeah man I know what you mean" but you can't talk about it at all.

Getting to where you finally give up attempting to understand it with language or similar tools is half the battle, or journey.  Only then do you start to follow it full time - sometimes you lead, sometimes it leads, but the dance never ends, never stops. The dance of Shiva - that's about as close as you can get. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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Offlineelgatogordo
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #18789957 - 09/02/13 01:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

I have looked into various religions from before the era of monotheism, and they all seem to have this notion embedded in them. I know a schizophrenic, nontheistic Pagan who gets the thing so well, and Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, etc. are littered with references to the thing. Can you elaborate a little more on why you see it specifically as Taoism? (if that is indeed the case)




It's not "Taoism" it's not "Buddhism" it's not "perennial philosophy" it's not "monotheism" it's none of these things.  It's not any kind of religion - all religions are bullshit.  There's nothing you or anybody can say about it that explains it in any way.  That's why when you sense it you go :awesomenod: and everybody else goes :awesomenod: back and says "yeah man I know what you mean" but you can't talk about it at all.

Getting to where you finally give up attempting to understand it with language or similar tools is half the battle, or journey.  Only then do you start to follow it full time - sometimes you lead, sometimes it leads, but the dance never ends, never stops. The dance of Shiva - that's about as close as you can get. :thumbup:

:peace:PS




This...

Abstract music and art are also means to communicate the unspeakable. Sounds like you've got the message OP, now all there is to do is practice! :wink:


--------------------
"To those who doubt - your wounds will never heal
To those who question my creation - I'm not real"


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18789968 - 09/02/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Listen to Alan Watts


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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OnlineAldebaran
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18790732 - 09/02/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

More abstractly, it's a cyclical or oscillating pattern between opposite things that recurs, and is sort of embedded within itself. Like I said, I can't really describe the idea, but I suspect that many here will know what I'm talking about.




I wasn't sure what you were trying to get at to be honest, I'm glad you mentioned Joseph Campbell as it gives me something to look up on wikipedia :wink:

An interesting phrase that pops up in the paragraph explaining monomyth is
Quote:

that basic and eternal force that is the source of all things and into which everything will return.




I suppose you're right that most of the trips that really feel deep or intense seem to take you to the heart of this "thing" which is "incommunicable in its pure form" as you put it.

Most of the threads that try and go deeply into this are generally under the banner of "ego death," with the idea being that when you obliterate your ego, what you are left with is something underlying reality, however you want to define it (or more likely reject the idea of defining it).

Quote:

And whenever people discuss the non-visual effects of psychedelic drugs, everyone just seems to sort of avoid or talk around this notion




The problem is that you are trying to discuss something ineffable, so any conversation about it is doomed to talk around the subject, or end up with this kind of "you guys know what I mean" "Oh yes I completely understand because I'm just so fucking deep mannnnn."

It's an interesting subject provided people don't get too precious about their own beliefs, and are actually willing to try and explain what they are on about. This monomyth idea is interesting because it seems to recognize both some underlying truth, and the fact that there is a layer of myth involved:

Quote:

From Wikipedia:As this story evolves through time it gets broken down into local forms which can take many guises (masks), depending on the social structures that exist of the culture that interprets it as well as its survival necessities. In contrast to its meaning which is ultimately unknowable, as it existed before words, the story's form has a structure which can be classified using the various stages of a hero's adventure through it, stages like the Call to Adventure, Receiving Supernatural Aid, Meeting with the Goddess/Atonement with the Father and Return. These stages, as well as the symbols one encounters throughout the story, provide the necessary metaphors to express the spiritual truths the story is trying to convey.




Part of the problem with a trip is that there is a huge layer of insanity/myth/delusion/psychosis overlaying whatever core non-verbal idea of truth you feel you have discovered. It's hard to take your own ideas seriously (let alone anyone else's) if they are the end result of a gradual breakdown of rational thinking.

The idea of regarding the delusional parts of a trip as a kind of myth that is being generated is quite a good one. There is a kind of hero's journey, lots of symbolism, the 'supernatural aid' elements, and an unfolding narrative that you create as you try to make sense of the trip... a story, a myth that feeds into ideas already present in psychedelic culture. So people do talk about this kind of thing, but they use terms to describe it that come from psychedelic culture (such as "ego death") or eastern religions, or they talk about entities or various esoteric spiritual ideas.

Anyway, another reason for not wanting to discuss this kind of subject endlessly is that there are some trips where you seem to come across something that is just completely sublime, which you could interpret either as God, or along the lines that Primal Soup is talking about. Whatever it is, it seems to be perfectly in balance, as though talking about it or trying to codify it would be futile. Explaining in detail brings in all the baggage of the trip, the mythic elements, the concentric rings of delusion. Trying to find certainty about something like this, trying to keep yourself firmly convinced that you really did find something within the trip, that is the path to insanity. It's better to just 'let it go.' Sometimes you just have to say "f***ing hell I wasn't expecting that" and get on with your day.


--------------------
I wrote that, but I meant something else


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Offlineelgatogordo
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Aldebaran]
    #18791063 - 09/02/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aldebaran said:
Quote:

More abstractly, it's a cyclical or oscillating pattern between opposite things that recurs, and is sort of embedded within itself. Like I said, I can't really describe the idea, but I suspect that many here will know what I'm talking about.




I wasn't sure what you were trying to get at to be honest, I'm glad you mentioned Joseph Campbell as it gives me something to look up on wikipedia :wink:

An interesting phrase that pops up in the paragraph explaining monomyth is
Quote:

that basic and eternal force that is the source of all things and into which everything will return.




I suppose you're right that most of the trips that really feel deep or intense seem to take you to the heart of this "thing" which is "incommunicable in its pure form" as you put it.

Most of the threads that try and go deeply into this are generally under the banner of "ego death," with the idea being that when you obliterate your ego, what you are left with is something underlying reality, however you want to define it (or more likely reject the idea of defining it).

Quote:

And whenever people discuss the non-visual effects of psychedelic drugs, everyone just seems to sort of avoid or talk around this notion




The problem is that you are trying to discuss something ineffable, so any conversation about it is doomed to talk around the subject, or end up with this kind of "you guys know what I mean" "Oh yes I completely understand because I'm just so fucking deep mannnnn."

It's an interesting subject provided people don't get too precious about their own beliefs, and are actually willing to try and explain what they are on about. This monomyth idea is interesting because it seems to recognize both some underlying truth, and the fact that there is a layer of myth involved:

Quote:

From Wikipedia:As this story evolves through time it gets broken down into local forms which can take many guises (masks), depending on the social structures that exist of the culture that interprets it as well as its survival necessities. In contrast to its meaning which is ultimately unknowable, as it existed before words, the story's form has a structure which can be classified using the various stages of a hero's adventure through it, stages like the Call to Adventure, Receiving Supernatural Aid, Meeting with the Goddess/Atonement with the Father and Return. These stages, as well as the symbols one encounters throughout the story, provide the necessary metaphors to express the spiritual truths the story is trying to convey.




Part of the problem with a trip is that there is a huge layer of insanity/myth/delusion/psychosis overlaying whatever core non-verbal idea of truth you feel you have discovered. It's hard to take your own ideas seriously (let alone anyone else's) if they are the end result of a gradual breakdown of rational thinking.

The idea of regarding the delusional parts of a trip as a kind of myth that is being generated is quite a good one. There is a kind of hero's journey, lots of symbolism, the 'supernatural aid' elements, and an unfolding narrative that you create as you try to make sense of the trip... a story, a myth that feeds into ideas already present in psychedelic culture. So people do talk about this kind of thing, but they use terms to describe it that come from psychedelic culture (such as "ego death") or eastern religions, or they talk about entities or various esoteric spiritual ideas.

Anyway, another reason for not wanting to discuss this kind of subject endlessly is that there are some trips where you seem to come across something that is just completely sublime, which you could interpret either as God, or along the lines that Primal Soup is talking about. Whatever it is, it seems to be perfectly in balance, as though talking about it or trying to codify it would be futile. Explaining in detail brings in all the baggage of the trip, the mythic elements, the concentric rings of delusion. Trying to find certainty about something like this, trying to keep yourself firmly convinced that you really did find something within the trip, that is the path to insanity. It's better to just 'let it go.' Sometimes you just have to say "f***ing hell I wasn't expecting that" and get on with your day.




Wonderful post/advice here!


--------------------
"To those who doubt - your wounds will never heal
To those who question my creation - I'm not real"


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Aldebaran]
    #18791082 - 09/02/13 05:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

An interesting phrase that pops up in the paragraph explaining monomyth is

   
   
Quote:

that basic and eternal force that is the source of all things and into which everything will return.






I suppose you're right that most of the trips that really feel deep or intense seem to take you to the heart of this "thing" which is "incommunicable in its pure form" as you put it.





Yeah, that's the way to go.  Seeing it as separate is a start, seeing it as essential is better, seeing it as yourself is much much closer.  Eventually all identity dissolves (usually when tripping) and then you see out from the inside, rather than in from the outside.  Follow the signs and you can get there without too much trouble.

the Way that can be named is not the eternal Way.

It's in the "Tao Te Ching", it's in the essential Buddhist teachings, it's in Gnostic Christianity - there are a thousand ways to enter the Tao.

Just don't try to talk about it. :lol:


Quote:

Part of the problem with a trip is that there is a huge layer of insanity/myth/delusion/psychosis overlaying whatever core non-verbal idea of truth you feel you have discovered. It's hard to take your own ideas seriously (let alone anyone else's) if they are the end result of a gradual breakdown of rational thinking.




Nah, that's only true if you start from delusion.  And there's no "discovery" of truth involved.  It's always a sharing from some much larger, ancient source, beyond words and concepts altogether.  Rational thinking is not your friend here. :lol:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Offlinequebus
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18791438 - 09/02/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for sharing this.  I arrived and feel empty.  Forgot to sing and dance along the way.



Quote:

sailing said:


dont worry, the video is short




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Invisiblesailing
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: quebus]
    #18791477 - 09/02/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

quebus said:
Thanks for sharing this.  I arrived and feel empty.  Forgot to sing and dance along the way.



Quote:

sailing said:


dont worry, the video is short






you're still here, go dance, sing and be merry :]


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

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OfflineSkydyn
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18793090 - 09/03/13 03:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sailing said:
Quote:

Skydyn said:
Quote:

sailing said:




What about it?




thats the pattern



I mean, it's an oscillation, and the sine wave or some mathematical derivation thereof does model many oscillations seen in real life, e.g. the motion of a pendulum, organization of electrons around the nucleus of an atom, sound and light waves, etc., but reducing the whole thing to an image of f(x)=5*sin(x) seems kind of oversimplified.



More thoughts:

People talk about ego death and stuff, but nobody ever really connects it to this notion, so I wasn't sure how related people feel the two things are. Honestly, I realized this whole notion after a particularly bad trip difficult experience that I had about a year ago with two of my friends. It was the second time I had ever tripped on shrooms, and I completely underestimated the power and (potential) potency of an eighth of these good shrooms. So anyway, I ended up stuck in one of those cyclical hell type things. Honestly, it was without a doubt the worst experience of my life, but I took it in relative stride and tried to learn from it.

After this experience, I sort of meditated on the idea for several weeks. I had the kernel of this weird idea, but no idea about what to do with it.

For example, the day after this trip, my friend, who I had done the shrooms with, jokingly stole my seat and refused to give it up. By some inexplicable application of this idea, which I hardly even understood at the time, I tricked him into getting up, and then I subsequently sat back down in my seat and looked at him intently. I cannot explain how I did this, but I know this is how it happened. He knew exactly what had happened as well, and we both laughed about it. We had been smoking marijuana, but otherwise were sober. This event seemed to sort of solidify the validity of this notion.

So I thought about it. And smoked weed. And thought about it some more. One day, about three weeks later, I had an epiphany. It seemed that I had lived my entire life and learned everything I have ever learned in order to finally understand this idea. All of the science, logic, mathematics, comparative mythology I had learned was so applicable. This notion completely described everything I had ever seen and learned, and everything I had ever seen and learned subsequently reinforced the thing. I sat and thought, amazed, about how all-encompassing and pure and beautiful and infinitely contemplatable this idea seemed.

The next day, two of my friends came to pick me up and take me to school. I was so excited to tell them about this idea that I had. I exclaimed that I was enlightened, that this cyclical self-embedded thing completely explained almost everything. One of my friends (he's like one of my three closest friends) who was in the car had tripped with me, and had a similarly unpleasant experience, but I dunno if he got the thing at that point. He later told me that he felt like an insect (and he really hates bugs) and had a similar cyclical hell thing going on, but wouldn't elaborate, and I have not gotten around to asking him what that was about. But this is all irrelevant.

Since this experience, I got better at doing psychedelic drugs, as in, managing negative thoughts, set and setting stuff, etc., and have explored this idea more.

Anyway, asking whether others understand this idea was only half of my aim. I have some pressing questions about this idea.

Firstly, it makes everything seem very hollow. Sure, I can empathize with people and understand their aims and their core self better, but all of the interactions just seem so staged now. Moreover, this idea has taken over my thoughts. Even before I knew of "the thing," I was frequently told that I analyze things too much, that I'm too abstract of a thinker, etc. Now, this problem is even worse. I can't think about anything without a bunch of rigorous and automatic analysis in the context of this notion.

Secondly, I see this thing making people miserable everywhere I go, and can never do anything about it. As beautiful as "the thing" is, it can be pretty ugly. People just iterate and iterate and make themselves miserable. I am a generally depressed and anxious person, who comes from a generally depressed and anxious family (we have an interesting brand of what I call "self-imposed intellectual misery) and my experiences with psychedelic drugs have made me better able to deal with these problems in everyday life. However, I still, er, do the thing with myself, and knowingly. I still iterate over things and never learn and make myself miserable. Knowing isn't even half of the battle. I find myself doing some miserable iterative cyclical shit, and can only occasionally will myself to stop. Worse, I see others doing it, just convulsing in misery, and can never help them. They just don't want to listen.

One of the most prominent and ugly examples/applications of "the thing" is the loop of pursuing romantic relationships. People get involved with a person, feel really validated and good about themselves, the other person, the relationship, etc., and then eventually cycle over to devaluation and hating. They stretch out the misery of it, breaking up and getting back together and breaking up and getting back together and so on and so forth. And then they move on and do it with another person. For example, I am friends with this one girl. She is just the epitome of borderline personality disorder, and she does it so hard. Her opinion of pretty much everything oscillates from "perfect" or "precious" or whatever to extreme disdain. I had gym class with her last year, and every day, she would come up to me and tell me about the new thing that she either really loved or really hated. I would always ask why she felt so strongly, and then she would go off about how I think about things too much and how you can't rationalize a personal opinion, etc. And then she would cycle back and tell me similar stuff minutes later, and the whole interaction would play out again.

These types of things really bother me to see. Whenever I try to explain how someone's efforts are cyclical and useless and that they aren't learning, everybody just gets upset about it. No matter how much BS I wrap it up in, no matter how nicely I put it, everyone refuses to listen. And even if they understood like I do, they probably couldn't even fix the problem. Sure, I can and do avoid some of the more common and salient instances of "the thing" that make people miserable, e.g. the idealization/devaluation loop, the relationship loop, etc. However, I feel that this notion would be extremely powerful to apply to everyday life and could allow me to finally pursue my goals diligently and get things done and not get hung up on dumb shit, but knowing is barely even the start. I can't apply this notion to make myself happy.

My final problem is about interacting with people who don't get this idea. Like I said, all of the interaction with people seem so staged now, especially with people who don't understand this idea. While it's easy to fall into the habit of condescending at them, that's not the problem. The problem is that it's hard to live in a world where nobody gets it. It's miserable and obstructs progress.

So um, what do I do about all of this? I just want to be happy and do the things I want to do. I used to be such a productive person. I would get straight A's in school without even trying... program and sell computer applications... I used to fence... I used to not be tired and unmotivated all day. This notion, however, combined with a fairly bad depressive episode that preceded my realizing this thing, has made everything empty and meaningless and boring. I feel that after my experiences, both of the depressing life kind and the psychedelic drug kind, that the system of reward in my mind has just broken down. I can barely will myself to do anything. Caffeine, and then subsequently Adderall, have become the currency of productivity, and even so, it's still hard to have the passion for doing things that I used to. Sure, I'm now more into learning, and I've learned a bunch of stuff, primarily about pharmacology, since I realized "the thing," but it's very hard to get myself to do any productive work. So yeah.

What do I do about all of this?

If something I said doesn't make sense, please ask for clarification. This stuff is naturally hard to talk about, and I'm tired and it's the middle of the night.

And sorry that this is really long lol. I just have a lot of thoughts.


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Offlineelgatogordo
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn] * 1
    #18793508 - 09/03/13 09:02 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Skydyn said:
Quote:

sailing said:
Quote:

Skydyn said:
Quote:

sailing said:




What about it?




thats the pattern



I mean, it's an oscillation, and the sine wave or some mathematical derivation thereof does model many oscillations seen in real life, e.g. the motion of a pendulum, organization of electrons around the nucleus of an atom, sound and light waves, etc., but reducing the whole thing to an image of f(x)=5*sin(x) seems kind of oversimplified.



More thoughts:

People talk about ego death and stuff, but nobody ever really connects it to this notion, so I wasn't sure how related people feel the two things are. Honestly, I realized this whole notion after a particularly bad trip difficult experience that I had about a year ago with two of my friends. It was the second time I had ever tripped on shrooms, and I completely underestimated the power and (potential) potency of an eighth of these good shrooms. So anyway, I ended up stuck in one of those cyclical hell type things. Honestly, it was without a doubt the worst experience of my life, but I took it in relative stride and tried to learn from it.

After this experience, I sort of meditated on the idea for several weeks. I had the kernel of this weird idea, but no idea about what to do with it.

For example, the day after this trip, my friend, who I had done the shrooms with, jokingly stole my seat and refused to give it up. By some inexplicable application of this idea, which I hardly even understood at the time, I tricked him into getting up, and then I subsequently sat back down in my seat and looked at him intently. I cannot explain how I did this, but I know this is how it happened. He knew exactly what had happened as well, and we both laughed about it. We had been smoking marijuana, but otherwise were sober. This event seemed to sort of solidify the validity of this notion.

So I thought about it. And smoked weed. And thought about it some more. One day, about three weeks later, I had an epiphany. It seemed that I had lived my entire life and learned everything I have ever learned in order to finally understand this idea. All of the science, logic, mathematics, comparative mythology I had learned was so applicable. This notion completely described everything I had ever seen and learned, and everything I had ever seen and learned subsequently reinforced the thing. I sat and thought, amazed, about how all-encompassing and pure and beautiful and infinitely contemplatable this idea seemed.

The next day, two of my friends came to pick me up and take me to school. I was so excited to tell them about this idea that I had. I exclaimed that I was enlightened, that this cyclical self-embedded thing completely explained almost everything. One of my friends (he's like one of my three closest friends) who was in the car had tripped with me, and had a similarly unpleasant experience, but I dunno if he got the thing at that point. He later told me that he felt like an insect (and he really hates bugs) and had a similar cyclical hell thing going on, but wouldn't elaborate, and I have not gotten around to asking him what that was about. But this is all irrelevant.

Since this experience, I got better at doing psychedelic drugs, as in, managing negative thoughts, set and setting stuff, etc., and have explored this idea more.

Anyway, asking whether others understand this idea was only half of my aim. I have some pressing questions about this idea.

Firstly, it makes everything seem very hollow. Sure, I can empathize with people and understand their aims and their core self better, but all of the interactions just seem so staged now. Moreover, this idea has taken over my thoughts. Even before I knew of "the thing," I was frequently told that I analyze things too much, that I'm too abstract of a thinker, etc. Now, this problem is even worse. I can't think about anything without a bunch of rigorous and automatic analysis in the context of this notion.

Secondly, I see this thing making people miserable everywhere I go, and can never do anything about it. As beautiful as "the thing" is, it can be pretty ugly. People just iterate and iterate and make themselves miserable. I am a generally depressed and anxious person, who comes from a generally depressed and anxious family (we have an interesting brand of what I call "self-imposed intellectual misery) and my experiences with psychedelic drugs have made me better able to deal with these problems in everyday life. However, I still, er, do the thing with myself, and knowingly. I still iterate over things and never learn and make myself miserable. Knowing isn't even half of the battle. I find myself doing some miserable iterative cyclical shit, and can only occasionally will myself to stop. Worse, I see others doing it, just convulsing in misery, and can never help them. They just don't want to listen.

One of the most prominent and ugly examples/applications of "the thing" is the loop of pursuing romantic relationships. People get involved with a person, feel really validated and good about themselves, the other person, the relationship, etc., and then eventually cycle over to devaluation and hating. They stretch out the misery of it, breaking up and getting back together and breaking up and getting back together and so on and so forth. And then they move on and do it with another person. For example, I am friends with this one girl. She is just the epitome of borderline personality disorder, and she does it so hard. Her opinion of pretty much everything oscillates from "perfect" or "precious" or whatever to extreme disdain. I had gym class with her last year, and every day, she would come up to me and tell me about the new thing that she either really loved or really hated. I would always ask why she felt so strongly, and then she would go off about how I think about things too much and how you can't rationalize a personal opinion, etc. And then she would cycle back and tell me similar stuff minutes later, and the whole interaction would play out again.

These types of things really bother me to see. Whenever I try to explain how someone's efforts are cyclical and useless and that they aren't learning, everybody just gets upset about it. No matter how much BS I wrap it up in, no matter how nicely I put it, everyone refuses to listen. And even if they understood like I do, they probably couldn't even fix the problem. Sure, I can and do avoid some of the more common and salient instances of "the thing" that make people miserable, e.g. the idealization/devaluation loop, the relationship loop, etc. However, I feel that this notion would be extremely powerful to apply to everyday life and could allow me to finally pursue my goals diligently and get things done and not get hung up on dumb shit, but knowing is barely even the start. I can't apply this notion to make myself happy.

My final problem is about interacting with people who don't get this idea. Like I said, all of the interaction with people seem so staged now, especially with people who don't understand this idea. While it's easy to fall into the habit of condescending at them, that's not the problem. The problem is that it's hard to live in a world where nobody gets it. It's miserable and obstructs progress.

So um, what do I do about all of this? I just want to be happy and do the things I want to do. I used to be such a productive person. I would get straight A's in school without even trying... program and sell computer applications... I used to fence... I used to not be tired and unmotivated all day. This notion, however, combined with a fairly bad depressive episode that preceded my realizing this thing, has made everything empty and meaningless and boring. I feel that after my experiences, both of the depressing life kind and the psychedelic drug kind, that the system of reward in my mind has just broken down. I can barely will myself to do anything. Caffeine, and then subsequently Adderall, have become the currency of productivity, and even so, it's still hard to have the passion for doing things that I used to. Sure, I'm now more into learning, and I've learned a bunch of stuff, primarily about pharmacology, since I realized "the thing," but it's very hard to get myself to do any productive work. So yeah.

What do I do about all of this?

If something I said doesn't make sense, please ask for clarification. This stuff is naturally hard to talk about, and I'm tired and it's the middle of the night.

And sorry that this is really long lol. I just have a lot of thoughts.




Practice non-attachment. Create art by means of free association, meditate, lay off all drugs for a while, and once you are out of school consider taking a year or at least half a year off to collect yourself. You are wrapped up in something, and I know it seems real and solid, but when these thoughts arise I suggest you allow them to pass and stay focused on the things you are doing throughout the day.

The trip isn't just about you, which is why instead of trying to get people to understand your own convoluted ideas you should attempt to alleviate their suffering through other means. Speak to people in an open and caring manner, show real interest in their lives, if you give off the right impression a lot of folks will open up quite easily and once they can see that someone accepts and empathizes with whatever their personal struggle may be, they may find it easier to let go.

I am of the idea that you should also develop a similar relationship with yourself. I don't mean all the time, since there are some interactions that you will only be able to have with yourself that I do believe are worth pursuing from time to time, but simply be aware and observant of thoughts as they take form.

I have a couple links that can maybe iterate these ideas better...

From Fear to Fearlessness

The Trickster

I wish you the best man!


--------------------
"To those who doubt - your wounds will never heal
To those who question my creation - I'm not real"


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn] * 1
    #18794225 - 09/03/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So anyway, I ended up stuck in one of those cyclical hell type things. Honestly, it was without a doubt the worst experience of my life, but I took it in relative stride and tried to learn from it.




Thought loops.

Quote:

We had been smoking marijuana, but otherwise were sober.




Yeah, sober.  Right.  Don't go driving when you're sober like that. :zombie2:

Dude, all you're describing is karma.  You're under it's influence, and any unenlightened being is equally under it's influence, and experiences it as an inexorable law of nature.  But it's not.

Quote:

One day, about three weeks later, I had an epiphany. It seemed that I had lived my entire life and learned everything I have ever learned in order to finally understand this idea.




Very common kind of experience - everything leads to this moment.  Well of course it does.  Where the hell else could you possibly be now?

Quote:

I exclaimed that I was enlightened, that this cyclical self-embedded thing completely explained almost everything.




:goodluckwiththat2:

No wonder you're having trouble with all this.

Quote:

Firstly, it makes everything seem very hollow. Sure, I can empathize with people and understand their aims and their core self better, but all of the interactions just seem so staged now. Moreover, this idea has taken over my thoughts. Even before I knew of "the thing," I was frequently told that I analyze things too much, that I'm too abstract of a thinker, etc. Now, this problem is even worse. I can't think about anything without a bunch of rigorous and automatic analysis in the context of this notion.




Karma is like that.  When you live in the world of cause and effect, there is literally no way out.  Everything is reduced to its base constituents.  There's no nuance at all.  You need to move beyond that.  Unfortunately that's going to take a lot more work.

Quote:

Secondly, I see this thing making people miserable everywhere I go, and can never do anything about it.




Yes it does, and no you can't.

My apologies for concluding that you'd stumbled on a realization of the Tao.  This isn't really that at all. What this is is a realization of  ordinary understanding of cause and effect, to the point where you see it in  action but are powerless to influence it.  It doesn't have to be that way, and you don't have to stay that way, but smoking weed is not gonna get you past this shit. :shrug:

In Zen thought, in the 10 stages of Ox-herding (an allegory), this is what's known as "Glimpsing the Ox from Afar" (or "Perceiving the Bull" in the link I give).  There's a long ways left to go.  (see Ten Bulls)

Put another way, you're experiencing what's known as the beginnings of "the great doubt".  Nurture it and work with it, it's the seed of a much more complete insight, and eventually, power over what's troubling you about all of this.  Don't worry about it, thousands if not millions of people have gone through this exact same thing and seen it through.

Thanks for finally putting out enough information to make it clear what you're talking about. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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Invisibleexcalibur127
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18794389 - 09/03/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You remind me a lot of my past self. You overthink, you oversimplify and you have not yet learned to appreciate life in a different way than your own. The paragraph in which you describe relationships is where this is most evident.

I speculate you are also as wordy here as in real-life, and if so, this is problematic when trying to explain people your ideas. This may also be the reason why people cannot understand you very well: you speak too much yet say too little. Instead of taking the time to write half a book, think about what you wish to convey and put it down short yet powerfully.

Try taking a break from psychedelics and (over)thinking in general. Find a nice hobby, practice a sport, learn a language or try to settle with the people you find so boring and try to see how they are enjoying their lives.

I assure you, there is much more to life than you can hope to get from a psychedelic trip. You have seen and understood nothing yet.


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OfflineSkydyn
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: excalibur127]
    #18795384 - 09/03/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

excalibur127 said:
You remind me a lot of my past self. You overthink, you oversimplify and you have not yet learned to appreciate life in a different way than your own. The paragraph in which you describe relationships is where this is most evident.

I speculate you are also as wordy here as in real-life, and if so, this is problematic when trying to explain people your ideas. This may also be the reason why people cannot understand you very well: you speak too much yet say too little. Instead of taking the time to write half a book, think about what you wish to convey and put it down short yet powerfully.

Try taking a break from psychedelics and (over)thinking in general. Find a nice hobby, practice a sport, learn a language or try to settle with the people you find so boring and try to see how they are enjoying their lives.

I assure you, there is much more to life than you can hope to get from a psychedelic trip. You have seen and understood nothing yet.




Yes, I do those things and know full well. I also admit that I don't appreciate different things as much as I should, but that's not to say that I'm unwilling to try new things. Novelty is interesting.

When I was describing the relationship thing, I didn't mean that notion to be applicable to all love and relationships and all that stuff. I have, however, observed this particular pattern over and over again. That specific relationship thing is apparently just associated with youth, though, so my perception is skewed by my age and life experiences.

I do appreciate brevity. I appreciate simple, functional, beautiful design. I did write a ton up there... I have the tendency to write a lot when I feel strongly about something, and I was also kinda tired and out-of-it. And about putting my thoughts together briefly and clearly, I haven't really reached a conclusion about this idea, so my thoughts are fairly disorganized and long-winded. The point of the post wasn't really to put forward some beautiful and universal truth in the most profound and palatable way... I was just trying to get my thoughts out.


But I'm just doing the tit-for-tat thing and that won't get anyone anywhere. I have tried doing those things, and all the while, I can just never stop thinking. I enjoy it, even though it's often unsettling. What are my hobbies? I write software for fun and also for profit. I see it as art. I like making robust and simple designs to help people do things. (And I'm not just saying that to contest your point that I wasn't brief enough.) But that's just so much thinking. What else do I do? I read scholarly articles. I find science interesting... but once again, so much thinking. Whenever I play a sport, I think and think and think about the strategy of the game and the behaviors of the players and think and think and think. I honestly do like thinking, but the amount and intensity with which I think about things makes me feel distanced from others. Like I said earlier, it's not a matter of condescension. I don't look down on the things I see as boring. I just find it very hard to derive the same pleasure that I get abstract thinking from them.

Quote:

elgatogordo said:
Practice non-attachment. Create art by means of free association, meditate, lay off all drugs for a while, and once you are out of school consider taking a year or at least half a year off to collect yourself. You are wrapped up in something, and I know it seems real and solid, but when these thoughts arise I suggest you allow them to pass and stay focused on the things you are doing throughout the day.

The trip isn't just about you, which is why instead of trying to get people to understand your own convoluted ideas you should attempt to alleviate their suffering through other means. Speak to people in an open and caring manner, show real interest in their lives, if you give off the right impression a lot of folks will open up quite easily and once they can see that someone accepts and empathizes with whatever their personal struggle may be, they may find it easier to let go.

I am of the idea that you should also develop a similar relationship with yourself. I don't mean all the time, since there are some interactions that you will only be able to have with yourself that I do believe are worth pursuing from time to time, but simply be aware and observant of thoughts as they take form.

I have a couple links that can maybe iterate these ideas better...

From Fear to Fearlessness

The Trickster

I wish you the best man!




I have reached the conclusion that this is all the right thing to do, but I can't seem to do it. Years ago, I used to meditate, but always feel too rushed to do so. For example, I left for class at 8am today. Now it's 6:40 and have only just returned home after all of the things I had to do today. I'm exhausted. If I tried to meditate, I would probably just fall asleep. I will try tomorrow morning, though.

About explaining this notion to others, all of the evidence I've gathered points to this notion being a sort of universal truth. I see people suffering in these generally cyclical ways and want them to understand the idea so they can maybe stop. In my friend group, I was the one to stumble upon this idea and spread it. I think maybe knowing this idea has done us all some good. It's so fascinating, and it seems to describe almost everything. It's great to assist you in understanding people. Granted, they are my friends, and they're probably a good bit smarter and more open-minded than the average person, so that could be why they were (pretty much) all fairly willing to accept or at least listen to this notion.

At the same time, I know you just can't force people into getting this thing, but... ugh. I know it's futile. I guess it's just difficult to accept that I need to wait people out and they will eventually help themselves. (or not and eventually die, but the vast majority of people I see and meet seem pretty miserable, so I hardly consider the end of something miserable to be a tragedy. But maybe that's too pessimistic)

I will try harder, though, and look at your links, as well. But wait, are you suggesting that I avoid thinking about this idea?


Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

So anyway, I ended up stuck in one of those cyclical hell type things. Honestly, it was without a doubt the worst experience of my life, but I took it in relative stride and tried to learn from it.




Thought loops.

Quote:

We had been smoking marijuana, but otherwise were sober.




Yeah, sober.  Right.  Don't go driving when you're sober like that. :zombie2:

Dude, all you're describing is karma.  You're under it's influence, and any unenlightened being is equally under it's influence, and experiences it as an inexorable law of nature.  But it's not.

Quote:

One day, about three weeks later, I had an epiphany. It seemed that I had lived my entire life and learned everything I have ever learned in order to finally understand this idea.




Very common kind of experience - everything leads to this moment.  Well of course it does.  Where the hell else could you possibly be now?

Quote:

I exclaimed that I was enlightened, that this cyclical self-embedded thing completely explained almost everything.




:goodluckwiththat2:

No wonder you're having trouble with all this.

Quote:

Firstly, it makes everything seem very hollow. Sure, I can empathize with people and understand their aims and their core self better, but all of the interactions just seem so staged now. Moreover, this idea has taken over my thoughts. Even before I knew of "the thing," I was frequently told that I analyze things too much, that I'm too abstract of a thinker, etc. Now, this problem is even worse. I can't think about anything without a bunch of rigorous and automatic analysis in the context of this notion.




Karma is like that.  When you live in the world of cause and effect, there is literally no way out.  Everything is reduced to its base constituents.  There's no nuance at all.  You need to move beyond that.  Unfortunately that's going to take a lot more work.

Quote:

Secondly, I see this thing making people miserable everywhere I go, and can never do anything about it.




Yes it does, and no you can't.

My apologies for concluding that you'd stumbled on a realization of the Tao.  This isn't really that at all. What this is is a realization of  ordinary understanding of cause and effect, to the point where you see it in  action but are powerless to influence it.  It doesn't have to be that way, and you don't have to stay that way, but smoking weed is not gonna get you past this shit. :shrug:

In Zen thought, in the 10 stages of Ox-herding (an allegory), this is what's known as "Glimpsing the Ox from Afar" (or "Perceiving the Bull" in the link I give).  There's a long ways left to go.  (see Ten Bulls)

Put another way, you're experiencing what's known as the beginnings of "the great doubt".  Nurture it and work with it, it's the seed of a much more complete insight, and eventually, power over what's troubling you about all of this.  Don't worry about it, thousands if not millions of people have gone through this exact same thing and seen it through.

Thanks for finally putting out enough information to make it clear what you're talking about. :thumbup:

:peace:PS



Hm. Okay. I have some questions. What do you mean when you say that I'm describing karma? Maybe I misunderstand the concept, but it seems that no matter how good your intentions intentions are, you just get wrapped up in iterating over stuff and being miserable. Worse yet, I have observed, time and time again, peoples' misery leading them to do things that I would consider "bad," as in, which destroy happiness in net.

Oh, and I don't and didn't really think I was "enlightened." The notion was just so awe-filled and beautiful at that moment.

Okay but now to the point. The "perceiving the bull" metaphor seems to fit. Obviously, I have yet to apply this notion to make myself or anyone else happier. All I can do with it is have some fun (of course, I don't really mean fun...) observing people doing things.

So I have two questions, and they're probably fairly unanswerable, but I figure why not ask:

Firstly, do you have any advice about pursuing this notion? I understand that most of this is fairly beyond words, and that the experience of figuring it out and realizing it yourself is what makes it meaningful and useful, but are there any ideas that can lead me along the way?

Secondly, maybe I'm naive, but everything about the Tao seems to fit with my conception of "the thing." If I have not realized the Tao (and I probably haven't), then what have I realized. How is it different from the Tao? Is it that I can't apply it to do any good, or is it something else? And whatever the Tao is, if I follow this path of thought, is the Tao the end?

Also, why do you call it the Tao? That seems too culture-specific for this seemingly all-encapsulating idea.


Edited by Skydyn (09/03/13 05:17 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18795596 - 09/03/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hm. Okay. I have some questions. What do you mean when you say that I'm describing karma? Maybe I misunderstand the concept, but it seems that no matter how good your intentions intentions are, you just get wrapped up in iterating over stuff and being miserable. Worse yet, I have observed, time and time again, peoples' misery leading them to do things that I would consider "bad," as in, which destroy happiness in net.




That's karma.  Check it out.  So long as you're subject to it, no matter what your intentions are, it remains your experience.  It's nothing to do with happiness or misery or desire, it just is.  It's not like "you do evil, evil comes around", it's much more basic than that, it's both physical and metaphysical cause and effect.

Your trying to describe this stuff to people in an attempt to educate them - as you have seen - is doomed. :shrug:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #18795735 - 09/03/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

Hm. Okay. I have some questions. What do you mean when you say that I'm describing karma? Maybe I misunderstand the concept, but it seems that no matter how good your intentions intentions are, you just get wrapped up in iterating over stuff and being miserable. Worse yet, I have observed, time and time again, peoples' misery leading them to do things that I would consider "bad," as in, which destroy happiness in net.




That's karma.  Check it out.  So long as you're subject to it, no matter what your intentions are, it remains your experience.  It's nothing to do with happiness or misery or desire, it just is.  It's not like "you do evil, evil comes around", it's much more basic than that, it's both physical and metaphysical cause and effect.

Your trying to describe this stuff to people in an attempt to educate them - as you have seen - is doomed. :shrug:

:peace:PS




I guess so. What about sort of planting the seed of this idea in someone's mind? Two years ago, I had an English teacher who was known to have an affinity for psychedelic drugs. He was one of the "original" hippies. He told us about the hero's journey, the fallibility of perception, the idea that a mental struggle often parallels a physical one, etc. He never connected these ideas back to real life, but he definitely put this idea into my head so it could bounce around and grow. So now, two years later, I'm here thinking about "the thing." Another classmate of mine also alluded to some wise and inexplicable notion that the teacher taught him, but was unable to elaborate.

I kinda wanna do that... plant the idea in people's minds. I'm just unsure about it, though. I'm happy to have this insight (even if it is limited), but as you can see, it does cause me distress, and I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble. While part of me feels like delving deeper into this notion to try and extract some something that can help me in my practical, everyday life, part of me just feels like it would be best if I forgot about this notion entirely. I guess that's why it's called the "great doubt."

Also, many people say just not to think about it, to ignore it and put this notion away in the back of my head until some good opportunity to use it comes along, and then to promptly put the thought back when I'm done using it. Thinking about this thing does seem a lot like the path to insanity or something... So, uhh, how... safe... is exploring this idea? Sometimes I fear that in thinking about "the thing," I'll get so deep in it that I won't be able to come back and operate properly in regular life with regular people who don't understand this stuff. I already am having this problem, but delving deeper into the notion is just so tempting. How clear is the path to deriving something meaningful from all this?  Going further into this idea recalls notions of like, Syd Barrett. Hah. Could I just "go crazy" from thinking about this stuff too much? I mean, obviously it's not as simple as that, but what are your thoughts on the safety of embarking down this path?


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18796507 - 09/03/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

OP, I do believe I know what you're talking about. With some of it I agree, and about some of it I have a different way of thinking.

What you call that thing, that pattern, that repeating, self-iterating pulse that's universal, that's indeed there, and I'd be willing to wager good money that most of us trippers have caught some sort of glimpse of it, or parts of it.

Now the problems you describe here, like it making people miserable, getting caught in loops and useless patterns, I think that's very much a matter of how you do it. The universe provides a song, for you do dance on, or sing along, or whatever you wish to do. Trees sing and dance in one way, fish and squids and corals in another, but they all sing on and on an on, having a jolly old time and leaving offspring to continue this awesome adventure. To the one who doesn't "get" what's happening, this is all noise, danger and drudgery, but if you know how to listen and see the wonderful patterns, it's an amazing symphony of endless wonders that will blow. your. mind!!!!

I can best relate to this concept via the Ayahuasca experiences I had so far. The Santo Daime people that organize them, they make this amazing music, that seems precisely tuned to get you out of annoying unimaginative loop mode, out of the same thoughts you've been dwelling on for ages, and move on. Really move on. Get you from monotonous loop mode, into amazing symphony mode. Fractalic and healthy.

Fractals have two characteristics: repetition and variation. IF you're missing enough variation in a rhythm (like you're describing) then that becomes stale. The same noise prolonged, tires the ear. The same thought repeated, tires the head. The sound of a forest however never becomes tiring, like the monotone sound of an engine running day and night.

Variation is the key. Music making.

Yes people fall in love, you could say it's all the same. But just LOOK at the variation of it!!!!
Perhaps you have a problem of focusing too much on similarity, BORING similarity, the way everything is the same? Try focusing on what's NOT the same this time around, and see it become magical. This new girl you're now in love with, what's incredibly different and completely unique about her, that's unlike any other girl in the universe? That's precisely what you even fall in love with! Sure all beings just iterate and self-replicate over and over to infinity, but look at the amazing symphony of it, the way it spirals and blooms and smells and sounds!

You guys posting the sine wave are a bit off mark IMO. THe universe doesn't offer a constant sine wave without any modulation. It offers this:



This is fractalic. A continuous sine wave isn't.

Look wherever you want in the whole of creation, at any zoom level, you'll find uniqueness. You'll find some variation. Some modulation of the rhythm. As it were, some song being played or painting being painted. 

So since you had such bad vibes during your trip, I have to ask. What were you doing? What were you doing to lead and harmonize the vibes and waves, so they spin and spiral in a good way? Were you actively maintaining the level of variation, by music, shifting colors through the rainbow, anything of the sort? For me the amazing Santo Daime songs provided ample proof that the universe is absolutely wonderful. Something about the slow rise and falls, compounded with the medium and fast rise and falls, there's something like spring about it. Where everything is colorful. Everything is teaming with life, large and small, fat and thin, fast and slow, everything is offered in good wholesome measure.

If you can't see this with your current tripping habits, maybe try to expand.

The Santo Daime people take 50+ or even 100-200 voices, with many instruments, all around you, to show you the true pattern of the universe, or better said the universal symphony of patterns. You can't always "get" this by yourself, or with a few friends that each go on their own trip, and with some mediocre music from 2 speakers. You need full on celebration, volume, a large scale unforgettable experience.

Trip on peyote with a circle of enthusiastic Native Americans, or on Ayahuasca with a large group of 50+ people, or trip out there at a great psy festival, with a whole ecosystem of trippy stimulation feeding your insights, people laughing, skipping through the forest, spinning fire, blinking the lights coming from their head. Then you'll see a completely different kind of vibe coming your way.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Spacerific]
    #18796656 - 09/03/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i know its not quite as simple as a perfect sine wave, but sine waves can be modulated by other sine waves and even other wave forms, but i think everything can be tied into wave forms, especially the patterns of life.


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18796735 - 09/03/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sailing said:
i know its not quite as simple as a perfect sine wave, but sine waves can be modulated by other sine waves and even other wave forms, but i think everything can be tied into wave forms, especially the patterns of life.




Well therein lies the major difference. Cricket sounds are constantly modulated, a telephone ringing is not. That's why one enchants the ear and calms you down, the other WILL get you to snap if it doesn't stop, and fast. Boredom is precisely a lack of modulation/novelty/variation in what's coming to one's attention.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Spacerific]
    #18796800 - 09/03/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:
Quote:

sailing said:
i know its not quite as simple as a perfect sine wave, but sine waves can be modulated by other sine waves and even other wave forms, but i think everything can be tied into wave forms, especially the patterns of life.




Well therein lies the major difference. Cricket sounds are constantly modulated, a telephone ringing is not. That's why one enchants the ear and calms you down, the other WILL get you to snap if it doesn't stop, and fast. Boredom is precisely a lack of modulation/novelty/variation in what's coming to one's attention.



a telephone ringing has quite a bit of modulation to it, except its a different waveshape entirely than a crickets. a pure sine wave has a very clean and satisfying sound.


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18796889 - 09/03/13 10:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I guess so. What about sort of planting the seed of this idea in someone's mind? Two years ago, I had an English teacher who was known to have an affinity for psychedelic drugs. He was one of the "original" hippies. He told us about the hero's journey, the fallibility of perception, the idea that a mental struggle often parallels a physical one, etc. He never connected these ideas back to real life, but he definitely put this idea into my head so it could bounce around and grow. So now, two years later, I'm here thinking about "the thing."




Sure, that can help.  A "did ya ever notice?" is ever more likely to germinate than "you got to understand this now!" IME.

When I first got heavily into this stuff I tried to convert people and often made a pain in the ass of myself.  Took a while to learn it just didn't work.  Be an example, and if anybody's curious, let it fly.  Otherwise, inscrutability is always good. :lol:

Quote:

So, uhh, how... safe... is exploring this idea? Sometimes I fear that in thinking about "the thing," I'll get so deep in it that I won't be able to come back and operate properly in regular life with regular people who don't understand this stuff.




Probably a good question.  But why let that hold you back?  Most people will never really understand it, you just go with it.  I've been working on things recently while tripping that I guarantee you almost nobody even has a clue about.  It can be scary, but really you don't end up stuck down the rabbit hole.  You just have a wider range of ways of thinking about it all. :thumbup:

Quote:

So I have two questions, and they're probably fairly unanswerable, but I figure why not ask:

Firstly, do you have any advice about pursuing this notion? I understand that most of this is fairly beyond words, and that the experience of figuring it out and realizing it yourself is what makes it meaningful and useful, but are there any ideas that can lead me along the way?

Secondly, maybe I'm naive, but everything about the Tao seems to fit with my conception of "the thing." If I have not realized the Tao (and I probably haven't), then what have I realized. How is it different from the Tao? Is it that I can't apply it to do any good, or is it something else? And whatever the Tao is, if I follow this path of thought, is the Tao the end?

Also, why do you call it the Tao? That seems too culture-specific for this seemingly all-encapsulating idea.




3 questions.  Backwards - Tao is a name from antiquity for the Way in which the universe seems to work, and that's never changed. It's inside of everything. When you see synchronicity in action, it's that kind of thing.  When you feel in the flow, it's that kind of thing.  When you notice how damn perfect everything is, how it fits together like it was made to, it's that kind of thing.  Lao Tsu merely saw all this and connected the dots.  It's very similar in feeling to a lot of Buddhism, but it seems more accessible to more people.

Second, there's not really anything to realize.  It's more of a surrender to what already exists and already operates all around you and within you.  Like Zen awakening, it doesn't depend on some sort of insight or mental activity - you just go...sideways...and open the door.  Psychedelics can help immensely in this practice.

First, well, plenty of books to guide at least part of the way.  Meditation - you do that - it works.  There's no expectation of anything, and then it opens up completely.  The smallest thought or gesture or noise or whatever can bring you to full awakening without effort, sometimes.  You recognize it when it happens - that's why Lao Tsu says to pursue it assiduously.  Somehow (and I don't know how) it fixes everything that's broken.  Like snapping your fingers.  Only it's real. And this description is of course next to useless. :lol:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Edited by PrimalSoup (09/03/13 10:30 PM)


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18797495 - 09/04/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sailing said:
Quote:

Spacerific said:
Quote:

sailing said:
i know its not quite as simple as a perfect sine wave, but sine waves can be modulated by other sine waves and even other wave forms, but i think everything can be tied into wave forms, especially the patterns of life.




Well therein lies the major difference. Cricket sounds are constantly modulated, a telephone ringing is not. That's why one enchants the ear and calms you down, the other WILL get you to snap if it doesn't stop, and fast. Boredom is precisely a lack of modulation/novelty/variation in what's coming to one's attention.



a telephone ringing has quite a bit of modulation to it, except its a different waveshape entirely than a crickets. a pure sine wave has a very clean and satisfying sound.



I was talking about the fact that a telephone is purely repetitive, no inflexions or changes from one ring to another. Continuous sine waves are satisfying for how many seconds? In fact I challenge you to find any continuous constant unchanging sound that doesn't annoy after a while. Even if you take white noise, the kind people use to get some sleep, cover traffic. Compare that to the natural evening sounds of a forest, and you'll see that our brains appreciate modulation, variation, complexity, instead of monotonous exact repetition.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Spacerific]
    #18797773 - 09/04/13 02:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:
Quote:

sailing said:
Quote:

Spacerific said:
Quote:

sailing said:
i know its not quite as simple as a perfect sine wave, but sine waves can be modulated by other sine waves and even other wave forms, but i think everything can be tied into wave forms, especially the patterns of life.




Well therein lies the major difference. Cricket sounds are constantly modulated, a telephone ringing is not. That's why one enchants the ear and calms you down, the other WILL get you to snap if it doesn't stop, and fast. Boredom is precisely a lack of modulation/novelty/variation in what's coming to one's attention.



a telephone ringing has quite a bit of modulation to it, except its a different waveshape entirely than a crickets. a pure sine wave has a very clean and satisfying sound.



I was talking about the fact that a telephone is purely repetitive, no inflexions or changes from one ring to another. Continuous sine waves are satisfying for how many seconds? In fact I challenge you to find any continuous constant unchanging sound that doesn't annoy after a while. Even if you take white noise, the kind people use to get some sleep, cover traffic. Compare that to the natural evening sounds of a forest, and you'll see that our brains appreciate modulation, variation, complexity, instead of monotonous exact repetition.



that's because nature has a unique rhythm. you could take a standard phone ringtone and arrange the tones into a rhythmic pattern that would be more pleasing. you could take any sound with whether its a pure unmodulated sine wave, or a sound with complex frequency modulation and it will get annoying after awhile. its rhythm and melody that gives it a pleasing sound. like music, life has its own rhythm and melody, but it still boils down to the wave that these rhythms and melodies are built with.


allow me to illustrate:
lets say, being dark out is the low extreme, and being bright out is the high extreme of our graph, this pattern creates a wave form that looks like this:

a sine wave with a hard limit.

now, we know that in the winter, day light is shorter and the darkness in between is longer, and in the summer, and vise verse in the summer. This is like an LFO (low frequency oscillator) that modulates the original wave form, changing the length of the crest or trough of the wave, however its still the same general frequency. you'll have to use your imagination for this one since i couldnt find an example image. but it still boils down to sine waves.


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18797792 - 09/04/13 02:33 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You know what I've realized? Life can't be out Into words.

It's a feeling that everyone gets, everyone on earth is experiencing the same life.

But too many get lost in translation. They try to iterate the things that just have to be felt.

OP your vagueness on "the thing" just shows that you got that down.

Keep feeling it, keep spreading the feeling, the knowledge, wisdom.

Life's but a thang, a beautiful thang.


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Legend] * 2
    #18797922 - 09/04/13 03:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

About planting ideas in other's head: the only right way to do this without being intrusive and doing brainwashing is to live by your idea and let others see for themselves.

A person living a life of peace will surely radiate that energy and people will feel it, and not a single word will have been uttered.


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: excalibur127]
    #18797941 - 09/04/13 04:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

excalibur127 said:
A person living a life of peace will surely radiate that energy and people will feel it, and not a single word will have been uttered.



this


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18800438 - 09/04/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I get what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that the graph does NOT really represent processes as they occur in nature. In nature they DON'T repeat quite like that, exactly the same from iteration to iteration. You could extract perfect sine waves from what happens in nature, but the sine waves are only on your paper, in theory.

Out there, every single wave is unique. Slightly different. The limits are slightly higher or lower, the extremes are not parallel lines, but some sort of arcs and curves that shift slightly, orbit axis are not still but may have precession, and so on.

I've never gotten bored of say, the sound of wind and crickets in the evening. The level of complexity and variation in those sounds, made by so many insects, provides ample amounts of freshness, so it never really gets to feel stale.

That's what I wanted to point out, that human graphs you can zoom in, and you'll get a simple straight line, or zoom out, and you get a simple line or dot. In nature, zoom in and you get infinite fractals, zoom out and you get infinite fractals. It's repetition WITH variation, not without.

The variety is always there. It's only by spending too much time with teh same person, doing the same thing in the same way, that one can turn it into something boring and pointless.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Spacerific]
    #18800779 - 09/04/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Excuse me, please, but these graphs are pointless.  They have as little to do with the real sounds as a tuning fork does with real music.  But hey, keep on working it out if that's what y'all need to do. :thumbup:

BTW, I think what you're probably looking for is strange attractors in fractal sets/spaces.  These allow endless variation with self-similarity, which of course is pretty much what life looks like.  It's also quite useful to use in thinking about the kind of things that happen during trips, as bizarre as they can become.

:peace:PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Edited by PrimalSoup (09/04/13 08:08 PM)


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OfflineSporeSlinger
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Skydyn]
    #18800836 - 09/04/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My first trip was heavy with this idea. I had been reading about taoism at the time and the trip really gave me a sense of the polarity of everything. suffering and joy are two poles of the same thing. You can't have black without white ect... I always relate things to the sine curve now. A heart beat, the ebb and flow of the ocean for example. I even noticed it at work watching customers come in and out of my workplace. More and more people come in and it gets busier and busier and then it slowly gets less and less busy. It is like the building is breathing in people and then breathing them out. I guess that is what shrooms will do to you. I still laugh thinking about it like that.


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #18801050 - 09/04/13 09:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Finding a piece of something in everything.  Everything in itself.

That is the trip.

I love my experience as a human being: Perfection in imperfection.  I die daily and I am born daily. 

I am eternal perhaps, but eternality doesn't get the fascination of watching a blooming flower.  It has to be that flower.  So I make a game of it.  You be fascinated; I'll be the flower.  But you are really me so...




-From my "ask a tripping fool anything" thread.

You might also check out Simon G. Powell and his ideas on the self-organizing intelligence of nature; which struck a chord with me and I think you would like.


--------------------
Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order:
1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine
2)Amanita (urine drank twice)
3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose)
4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators)
5)Salvia (need to try quid)


All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.

Blessing.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: flickedbic] * 1
    #18801402 - 09/04/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I've been working on my own theories in conjunction with some extremely surprising trip experiences in July this year.  But it's not something I'm willing to discuss openly, at least not yet.  I still have some replication and documentation to do.  Bottom line is that reality is far more interesting than most people even imagine.  Humans still have so far to go. :thumbup:

So, Simon G. Powell, do you mean like this:

Quote:

The paradigms currently steering human culture, particularly in the West, bear no reference whatsoever to natural intelligence. This might explain why so many environmental and existential crises face us. Conventional science resolutely denies that any intelligence is involved in evolution, let alone other natural processes, and so it is principally human intelligence and all the inventions and ideas of human intelligence that are esteemed and that come to determine the progress of human culture. In this sense, we are going it alone, a species intent on divorcing itself from the natural intelligence that birthed us. It might well be that until we acknowledge the role of natural intelligence in the evolution of the tree of life, we shall remain estranged from the rest of Nature and continue to suffer the consequences. To acknowledge the presence of natural intelligence within Nature, to seek to learn from that intelligence, is to begin placing oneself in a right relationship to all else.




No difference with any of that, matter of fact I moved quite a ways beyond it over the last few years as a vast (and self-booting) intelligence resident (or at least immanent) in the natural world moved into ever closer contact.  A bit scary at times since there really is no extant physics in western science for what I've found, let alone math that does more than suggest it.  And needing to earn some semblance of an ordinary living while doing research far enough beyond the cutting edge that just to think about it can be dangerous, makes everything both fascinating and terrifying, by turns. :shrug:

On the whole though I'd not trade it for anything. :what2:

:peace:PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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OfflineSpacerific
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #18801429 - 09/04/13 10:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
So, Simon G. Powell, do you mean like this:

Quote:

The paradigms currently steering human culture, particularly in the West, bear no reference whatsoever to natural intelligence. This might explain why so many environmental and existential crises face us. Conventional science resolutely denies that any intelligence is involved in evolution, let alone other natural processes, and so it is principally human intelligence and all the inventions and ideas of human intelligence that are esteemed and that come to determine the progress of human culture. In this sense, we are going it alone, a species intent on divorcing itself from the natural intelligence that birthed us. It might well be that until we acknowledge the role of natural intelligence in the evolution of the tree of life, we shall remain estranged from the rest of Nature and continue to suffer the consequences. To acknowledge the presence of natural intelligence within Nature, to seek to learn from that intelligence, is to begin placing oneself in a right relationship to all else.







Holy smokes that's amazing stuff!:eek:

Fits right in with my shroom/aya messages. Great to see people actually look deeper into this :thumbup:


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: flickedbic]
    #18801642 - 09/04/13 11:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thought


Continuous Energy


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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Invisibleexcalibur127
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18801923 - 09/05/13 03:02 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

May I remind you all that a perfect sine wave is non-existant in nature, it is something only math can create and is only theoretical. Humans love seeking patterns don't they, but it's all a bunch of Chaos if you ask me.


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: excalibur127]
    #18801948 - 09/05/13 03:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

excalibur127 said:
May I remind you all that a perfect sine wave is non-existant in nature, it is something only math can create and is only theoretical. Humans love seeking patterns don't they, but it's all a bunch of Chaos if you ask me.



says the one with a fractal as his avatar?
im not saying its a perfect sine wave, but its a repetitious pattern of ups/downs, on's/off's, blacks/whites, yins/yangs, wich can be loosely represented by a sine wave


--------------------
Love is the deep spiritual connection between the self and all things. We are all a part of the same universe.

Crazy cat peekin through a lace bandanna,like a one eyed cheshire, like a diamond eyed jack.

:awecid2:


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Invisibleexcalibur127
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: sailing]
    #18801983 - 09/05/13 03:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, I just like the trippiness of it :sunny:

Fair enough, I see what your saying. I would call it a sound wave in general, but if you guys see patterns in it then I suppose calling it a repeating wave is cool too!


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: excalibur127]
    #18802099 - 09/05/13 04:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

[55:19] The Self has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:
[55:20] Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.
[55:21] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55:22] There come forth from them pearls, both large and small.
[55:23] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55:24] And The Self's are the ships reared aloft in the sea like mountains.
[55:25] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
[55:26] Everyone on it must pass away.
[55:27] And there will endure for ever the person of your Lord, the Lord of glory and honor.
[55:28] Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?




Optimising function. There is a discrete lattice superimposed on a continuous Happening. The lattice extracts meaning from continuity.

The Universe is a giant ADC=>DAC=>ADC

Check out Causal Dynamical Triangulations or the Holographic Information Bound for further info.

This "Thing" is already fully described by Quantum Mechanics applied to General Relativity. It is found in understanding the nature of the Schrodinger Equation, TISE *and* TDSE.

It is an oscillation from extremes towards the Central Axis, always flying outwards to the extremes, back into the resonant Central Point of Pure Light.

[24:35] The Self is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of Its Light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- The Self guides to Its Light whom IT pleases, and The Self sets forth parables/examples/analogies for men, and The Self is Cognizant of all things.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: crkhd]
    #18802709 - 09/05/13 10:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This "Thing" is already fully described by Quantum Mechanics applied to General Relativity. It is found in understanding the nature of the Schrodinger Equation, TISE *and* TDSE.




:picard:

:peace:PS


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Invisibleexcalibur127
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #18802873 - 09/05/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

@crkhd I don't understand a single word of what you are saying. Can you describe your idea in a nutshell without using overcomplicated words and Holy Book passages?


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: excalibur127]
    #18805346 - 09/05/13 09:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I get an intense feeling of things moving in a cyclical pattern that you describe (know that's not the best phrasing but I get what you mean) on the come up. The pattern seems to exponentially grow until I "break through" to the infinite where I come to total euphoria and am out of "the cycle."


--------------------
I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.          -Kurt Vonnegut

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.  -Hunter S. Thompson


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InvisibleLegend
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: neuroshaman]
    #18805405 - 09/05/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

neuroshaman said:
I get an intense feeling of things moving in a cyclical pattern that you describe (know that's not the best phrasing but I get what you mean) on the come up. The pattern seems to exponentially grow until I "break through" to the infinite where I come to total euphoria and am out of "the cycle."




i second that


--------------------
No sympathy for the devil, keep that in mind.
[url=
]Buy the ticket, take the ride. [/url]
Are you lost?


Edited by Legend (09/05/13 10:45 PM)


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Offlineneuroshaman
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: Legend]
    #18805426 - 09/05/13 10:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Do you mean cyclical?


--------------------
I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.          -Kurt Vonnegut

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.  -Hunter S. Thompson


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Offlineflickedbic
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: neuroshaman]
    #18805449 - 09/05/13 10:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Freudian slip?


--------------------
Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order:
1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine
2)Amanita (urine drank twice)
3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose)
4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators)
5)Salvia (need to try quid)


All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.

Blessing.


Edited by flickedbic (09/05/13 10:07 PM)


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: excalibur127]
    #18814118 - 09/08/13 06:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

excalibur127 said:
@crkhd I don't understand a single word of what you are saying. Can you describe your idea in a nutshell without using overcomplicated words and Holy Book passages?



Quote:

excalibur127 said:
@crkhd I don't understand a single word of what you are saying. Can you describe your idea in a nutshell without using overcomplicated words and Holy Book passages?





http://www.scribd.com/doc/38626734/Jaideva-Singh-Spanda-Karikas-the-Divine-Creative-Pulsation


Well studied, its name is Spanda, the Divine Creative Pulsation

I'd love to know of its neurobiological origin.

It seems to be mediated by DMT secretion itself.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: crkhd]
    #18814276 - 09/08/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Skydyn:

After reading your original post and then skimming through the rest of the thread, my suggestion to you is next time you trip listen to THIS 1-2 hours after dosing. For maximum impact, refrain from listening UNTIL the next time you trip, and listen to the entire piece (1+ hours) intently without talking.

One listen is not sufficient, after multiple sessions new vistas will continue to open up. I believe that millenia, if not entire aeons are encoded into this masterpiece.


--------------------


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Re: The general pattern of things... you guys know what I mean, right? [Re: blckmynnse8]
    #18814279 - 09/08/13 08:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."




^quoted from the sig in the post above my previous one.


--------------------


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