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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786337 - 09/01/13 06:08 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

as far as you know, or any other scientist knows it could be so, beyond perception.

So by that argument I guess everything could be unnatural.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18786343 - 09/01/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You are only speaking hypothetically. Do you have evidence of such a creature?

If not then your point is not valid.

A possibility doesn't mean much without any likely hood or plausibility of the possibility.

It's possible that I'm god, therefore it is possible that I control all your actions . . .

Is it plausible or is there evidence of such a thing?


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Invisibleas7859
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Registered: 08/15/13
Posts: 49
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786361 - 09/01/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Well, that's you're prerogative, the truth value is not based on opinion, but sound logical deduction.

The definition of nature as presented for the premise says that humans and human creations are not of nature, therefore you lose. Your thoughts or idea's or opinions are irrelevant.

Have a nice day.



Arrogance at the highest level.

"Sound logical deduction" = premises leading to a conclusion, with the premises being true, leading, therefore, to the conclusion being undeniably true. The truth value of your second premise is at dispute, whether you like it or not. Denying other people's opinion on your premise is just pointless and a waste of time in even posting this thread.

There are many arguments in philosophy where the arguments rage on simply due to the fact that different philosophers dispute the truth values of certain premises in arguments. Freewill and Determinism debate being a good example.

But if you're really such an arrogant individual who is simply going to just tell everyone who disagrees with you that they are wrong and you are correct, you're just a megalomaniac and it's impossible to have any rational debate with you, seeing as you're completely irrational. Your only aim here is to get everyone to agree with you to inflate your ego even more.

Well, unfortunately for you, your second premise is wrong. Just get over it and deal with it like a proper human being.


--------------------



Edited by as7859 (09/01/13 06:15 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: as7859]
    #18786369 - 09/01/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

as7859 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Well, that's you're prerogative, the truth value is not based on opinion, but sound logical deduction.

The definition of nature as presented for the premise says that humans and human creations are not of nature, therefore you lose. Your thoughts or idea's or opinions are irrelevant.

Have a nice day.



Arrogance at the highest level.

"Sound logical deduction" = premises leading to a conclusion, with the premises being true, leading, therefore, to the conclusion being undeniably true. The truth value of your second premise is at dispute, whether you like it or not. Denying other people's opinion on your premise is just pointless and a waste of time in even posting this thread.

There are many arguments in philosophy where the arguments rage on simply due to the fact that different philosophers dispute the truth values of certain premises in arguments. Freewill and Determinism debate being a good example.

But if you're really such an arrogant individual who is simply going to just tell everyone who disagrees with you that they are wrong and you are correct, you're just a megalomaniac and it's impossible to have any rational debate with you, seeing as you're completely irrational. Your only aim here is to get everyone to agree with you to inflate your ego even more.

Well, unfortunately for you, your second premise is wrong. Just get over it and deal with it like a proper human being.




I thought you was done. Do you want me to respond to this or you really done?

Maybe I don't understand your argument, maybe you could reiterate it for me and elaborate upon it.


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OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786376 - 09/01/13 06:16 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Sse, the argument would still be valid, the creature would just also be considered as separate from nature.

We don't have evidence of such a creature so it isn't included in the definition.

An alien that owned a spaceship would also not be a part of nature if he considered the spaceship "his or hers".




the definition could be interpreted to only mean the physical world and physical creations.

I don't know if you could really say that they would have included it in the definition if they proved a creature to have a self and acknowledging their possessions.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18786386 - 09/01/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Well, then I would have as far as this argument goes.

We can include intelligent alien lifeforms and their creations and nothing changes.


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OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786399 - 09/01/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Does responsive or unpredictable emotional behavior suggest a self?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: as7859]
    #18786403 - 09/01/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

as7859 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Well, that's you're prerogative, the truth value is not based on opinion, but sound logical deduction.

The definition of nature as presented for the premise says that humans and human creations are not of nature, therefore you lose. Your thoughts or idea's or opinions are irrelevant.

Have a nice day.



Arrogance at the highest level.

"Sound logical deduction" = premises leading to a conclusion, with the premises being true, leading, therefore, to the conclusion being undeniably true. The truth value of your second premise is at dispute, whether you like it or not. Denying other people's opinion on your premise is just pointless and a waste of time in even posting this thread.

There are many arguments in philosophy where the arguments rage on simply due to the fact that different philosophers dispute the truth values of certain premises in arguments. Freewill and Determinism debate being a good example.

But if you're really such an arrogant individual who is simply going to just tell everyone who disagrees with you that they are wrong and you are correct, you're just a megalomaniac and it's impossible to have any rational debate with you, seeing as you're completely irrational. Your only aim here is to get everyone to agree with you to inflate your ego even more.

Well, unfortunately for you, your second premise is wrong. Just get over it and deal with it like a proper human being.




You mistaken confidence for arrogance, that's your own personal problem. You haven't shown that in nature one object owns another, because ownership is a human concept or idea and therefore not natural or of nature.

The stipulation is that for something to be natural it has to be directly from nature, not in some round about way correlated from nature.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18786421 - 09/01/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
Does responsive or unpredictable emotional behavior suggest a self?




The only way to suggest a self is through communication, that's the crux of the situation.

Does a dog have buddha's nature?

Why is it do you think that the answer is mu?

(this should be right up your alley)

I'm basically saying the same things Buddha said.



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OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786424 - 09/01/13 06:27 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

How about a shark with a sense imperceptible, thinking to itself(not necessarily with a language)this kill belongs to me, I am in possession of this kill, I will stick around in the area and protect my kill and feed on it until it is gone, anything that tries to interfere I will attack.

It may be beyond our understanding but it could be so, in an abstract way, without sentenced thought. Perhaps conceptual thought in a way we don't fully understand. We may never be able to prove or disprove that but perhaps all creatures engage in something similar, who really knows. If this turned out to be true would you then say everything that exists in this way would be unnatural?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18786426 - 09/01/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Answer what I posited before I answer more of yours. tit for tat.


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OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786436 - 09/01/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Supposedly all sentient life is born with Buddha nature. Are they also born into conditioned existence, into pain and suffering, into unpredictable emotional behavior due to the struggles of this world?

are they enlightened or just on the same journey as us to dissolve our self? Maybe, maybe not


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18786439 - 09/01/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

And do you know what sentient means and how you can tell if something is sentient?

I can't know that you are even sentient, unless you tell me it is so, then I have to take your word for it.


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OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786443 - 09/01/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

They can't communicate to us, even though we may perceive emotions, pain, whatever. We don't know if they are at complete ease and equanimity throughout all their life.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786449 - 09/01/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

sentient is assumed I guess, by the way we perceive them. Throw a ball, teach them to sit, etc.

But as far as I know they could just have blackness behind everything.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18786462 - 09/01/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, we don't know, we can't really know at this time, therefore it's a stupid question.

I think Mu is a polite way of saying that it's a stupid question.

I can believe in your sentience because you claim it, and you own things, you communicate, etc., etc.


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OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786489 - 09/01/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I guess if you want to view life from the way it responds, then you could say from as far as you can perceive, these beings are sentient.


I could put my dog in a lot of perceived(maybe inaccurately)pain right now, if that dog was truly sentient and could truly experience pain, does it have a self?

pain or emotional response indicates a self to me but I am not in the creatures eyes, but I will assume it is pain when I step on my dogs toe and it wines. I won't do it again because I lean more toward the side of yes they can feel pain.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786512 - 09/01/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

well, all thoughts and concepts are delusions in a sense, where there is perception there is a chance for deception.

I can't really say anything for sure beyond what I can replicate and even then who knows what is going on behind the curtain. We see what we see we perceive and relate what seems to be, but ultimately this whole schabang could be a faΓ§ade.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: Sse]
    #18786514 - 09/01/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Sure, you could, but it wouldn't be sound because you have to draw really long lines of inference.

Pain doesn't equate to emotions. It equates to a CNS, spinal cord/notochord and nerves.


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OfflineSse
SaαΉƒsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: To own infers an independence from nature. [Re: teknix]
    #18786515 - 09/01/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

been fun exercising my brain with you anyhow hehehe

I'm getting out of here for abit


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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