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Masked
The Nutter



Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 8,979
Loc: Canada
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Vitalux]
#18822069 - 09/10/13 05:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sloantbone said: Spoken like a true lawyer.
I'm surprised that you did not slip in your business card and tell him you ...will defend him to his very last cent.
But in all seriousness, I am betting there is a bit more to this story than meets the eye.... but ...that is just me. Its just a hunch.
I am a landlord that has been through MANY shitty tenants and my advice was exactly what theirs was.
It wasn't just spoken by the lawyer.
I had a tenant who ended up being a front for a gang. Her references checked out, but that THAT time, didn't do criminal record checks. Long story short...the house was being occupied by many, meth and crack were being dealt there, the police kicked the door down twice, which I had to repair and there was even a murder investigation that went down there. We as landlords were even questioned and they wanted access to the shop(which the tenants don't have access too). We started the eviction process immediately and it STILL took one month and 2 weeks to get them out.
Granted, BC has the worst tenancy laws in canada I'm betting(they protect the tenant and not the landlord).
My point is, there is so much you need to legally follow, even with SHIT tenants.
It doesn't matter what he has done or if there is more to the story. If his facts still remain, what the landlord did was HIGHLY illegal.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Masked]
#18822086 - 09/10/13 05:27 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Masked said: It doesn't matter what he has done or if there is more to the story. If his facts still remain, what the landlord did was HIGHLY illegal.
That's correct. The only additional fact that could change this basic truth is if the OP neglected to tell us that there was an unlawful detainer hearing where the judge ordered an eviction and the sheriffs served the order.
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Masked
The Nutter



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Loc: Canada
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Enlil]
#18822142 - 09/10/13 06:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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True.
In my example above, the judge ordered a 5 day eviction...and 3 additional days for the "order of posession"(see bc tenancy act). At that point, once we have the order of posession, we could hire a bailiff to legally and physically remove tenant and belongings if they were still there. but it also says in the act that once an order of possesion is obtained, if "the residence appears vacated" we can change the locks.
checked definitions of the act and realized it comes down to my opinion if its vacated 
With order of posession, and being a locksmith, I rekeyed locks.
I still couldnt throw their stuff out though. Had to store it for a period of time.
That was my first shit tenant. I know the act inside and out now, but one thing remains.....all that stuff, from the paperwork and 50 dollar fee its costs to file it, to the conference call with the judge....its roughly still a month to force evict a shit tenant when they refuse to leave or pay rent.
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Enlil
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Masked]
#18822160 - 09/10/13 06:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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And if a landlord makes a mistake in the process, he often has to start all over. I've helped tenants stay for 6 months without paying rent.
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Masked
The Nutter



Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 8,979
Loc: Canada
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Enlil]
#18822260 - 09/10/13 07:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Exactly.
So to clarify with op and everyonr else....this is a clear cut win for op, all the way
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Vitalux]
#18823817 - 09/10/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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there is really nothing more to the story that i haven't shared.
like i said, the only bump, and what the landlord was trying to argue (and the path I think he will take in court) is that I moved out the month before and my roomate paid for the last month.
however, even if that is true, and he thought the apartment abandoned, the state law says he must hold my possessions for a minimum of 30 days while trying to contact me to claim them.
instead, he purposefully threw the stuff out and told me so via voicemail.
i picked up the police report today. the officers' narratives won't help me, as they wrote that I admitted the roomate was the last one to pay and i had moved out earlier (i disagree with the officer's conclusion that no crime was committed, but that's a different story). all i really need from the police report is that it is dated for the 31 of august. i'll let the judge figure the rest out.
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King Klick
That Guy Everyone Knows



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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Anonymous #1]
#18843406 - 09/15/13 04:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Update?
-------------------- Your god is dead, and I killed him. When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Anonymous #1]
#20757116 - 10/26/14 08:16 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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long overdue update.
it took me several months to be able to think rationally about the situation without emotions trying to get the better of me and make me do something stupid...
i also wanted to wait awhile to give him a false sense of security so that he would be less able to fabricate evidence against me, meaning i'm thinking he has no evidence for his counterclaim in the form of photographs before he rented the place out again...
a couple months back I started to process to bring this guy to small claims.
he lawyered up and then counterclaimed for the time he spent cleaning the place and for damage as well.
i have pictures of the place from when the police let me back in on the 31st showing that there is no significant damage beyond normal wear and tear.
i got the copy of the last check from the previous roomate, and we also worked out a statement supporting me that he is getting notarized and sending back to me.
i'm feeling pretty confident in my case, but the only hiccup now would be proving the worth of the valuables he destroyed. many were more sentimental in value and irreplaceable. I'm not sure how I can prove to the court what was destroyed since it's not like I had it categorized and itemized before this event.
i'm pretty sure I can prove what he did however, with the voicemail recordings of him literally saying, "all your stuff is at the dump," and "the only thing left is the fish tank."
i came to a sum total of about $2100 that i am bringing against him, I am not comfortable doing more because again, I can't prove what was there and therefore what the value was, but I am planning on leaning heavily on additional punitive damages to the maximum amount allowed. i am pretty sure I can convince the judge of what happened.
my court date is in about three weeks. wish me luck.
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ReggieJenkins
Optical Illusion


Registered: 01/20/14
Posts: 221
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Anonymous #1]
#20758577 - 10/27/14 07:28 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good luck, friend. Dealing with a shitty landlord is one thing, but dealing with him in court seems pretty daunting.
Good vibes!
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Enlil
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Anonymous #1]
#20758622 - 10/27/14 07:54 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Some suggestions:
Quote:
Anonymous said: he lawyered up and then counterclaimed for the time he spent cleaning the place and for damage as well.
He has the burden of proof here, and he may or may not have pictures. Of course, you can claim that the property was damaged before you moved in. I'd also argue that you can't, unfortunately, prove that with pictures because he threw out all of your belongingsQuote:
i have pictures of the place from when the police let me back in on the 31st showing that there is no significant damage beyond normal wear and tear.
This is good stuff. Be organized at the hearing and clearly state when those shots were taken.Quote:
i got the copy of the last check from the previous roomate, and we also worked out a statement supporting me that he is getting notarized and sending back to me.
The check is helpful, but he may argue that the check is for a previous months rent that was paid lateQuote:
i'm feeling pretty confident in my case, but the only hiccup now would be proving the worth of the valuables he destroyed. many were more sentimental in value and irreplaceable. I'm not sure how I can prove to the court what was destroyed since it's not like I had it categorized and itemized before this event.
You can't, but here is the basics of your argument:
"Judge, I would love to come in here with a complete list of everything that I lost, but I can't. My memory isn't that perfect. I could have reviewed photos to identify my belongings, but the landlord threw those out as well. Simply put, judge, Defendant's actions not only deprived me of all of my belongings, but also deprived me of any evidence as to what those belongings were. Many of these belongings were of sentimental value and couldn't be replaced at any cost. Even if your honor were to award the statutory limit for small claims, it would still fall far short of making me whole."
Quote:
i came to a sum total of about $2100 that i am bringing against him, I am not comfortable doing more because again, I can't prove what was there and therefore what the value was, but I am planning on leaning heavily on additional punitive damages to the maximum amount allowed. i am pretty sure I can convince the judge of what happened.
You only have to prove with a preponderance of evidence. That means your proof has to be slightly stronger than his. You have your testimony of what you owned and lost. He has, perhaps, his testimony of what he remembers throwing away. He certainly didn't catalog all of your belongings. If it's not too late, you should be asking for the max.
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Enlil]
#20759577 - 10/27/14 01:55 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Some suggestions:
Quote:
Anonymous said: he lawyered up and then counterclaimed for the time he spent cleaning the place and for damage as well.
He has the burden of proof here, and he may or may not have pictures. Of course, you can claim that the property was damaged before you moved in. I'd also argue that you can't, unfortunately, prove that with pictures because he threw out all of your belongings
tell me if i'm wrong, but if he is found guilty of illegally entering the residence, how can he charge me for cleaning the place while he was there illegally? the pictures taken of the place the night of the 31st show it in spotless condition, so any cleaning he did was completed by the end of the day, and not the 2+ days, $1000+ worth of cleaning he is counterclaiming.
Quote:
Quote:
i have pictures of the place from when the police let me back in on the 31st showing that there is no significant damage beyond normal wear and tear.
This is good stuff. Be organized at the hearing and clearly state when those shots were taken.Quote:
i got the copy of the last check from the previous roomate, and we also worked out a statement supporting me that he is getting notarized and sending back to me.
The check is helpful, but he may argue that the check is for a previous months rent that was paid late
i have a copy of every check going back all the way to the beginning, so i'm thinking it would be pointless for him to try and argue that. plus, i will have a statement from the roommate who wrote the check stating as much. i also have an electricity bill for August 1-25. Part of his counterclaim is that I allowed the electricity to be shut off, which caused food to rot in the fridge. He told me to shut the electricity off after his wife switched it over after a week. I waited over two weeks, but I guess the positive side is having a bill for the (majority of) the month of August is more evidence to support the fact that we had not abandoned the apartment.
Quote:
Quote:
i'm feeling pretty confident in my case, but the only hiccup now would be proving the worth of the valuables he destroyed. many were more sentimental in value and irreplaceable. I'm not sure how I can prove to the court what was destroyed since it's not like I had it categorized and itemized before this event.
You can't, but here is the basics of your argument:
"Judge, I would love to come in here with a complete list of everything that I lost, but I can't. My memory isn't that perfect. I could have reviewed photos to identify my belongings, but the landlord threw those out as well. Simply put, judge, Defendant's actions not only deprived me of all of my belongings, but also deprived me of any evidence as to what those belongings were. Many of these belongings were of sentimental value and couldn't be replaced at any cost. Even if your honor were to award the statutory limit for small claims, it would still fall far short of making me whole."
i like that, i may add it to my opening statement. i wrote the majority of my statement last night and got so heated again it was hard for me to fall asleep.
Quote:
Quote:
i came to a sum total of about $2100 that i am bringing against him, I am not comfortable doing more because again, I can't prove what was there and therefore what the value was, but I am planning on leaning heavily on additional punitive damages to the maximum amount allowed. i am pretty sure I can convince the judge of what happened.
You only have to prove with a preponderance of evidence. That means your proof has to be slightly stronger than his. You have your testimony of what you owned and lost. He has, perhaps, his testimony of what he remembers throwing away. He certainly didn't catalog all of your belongings. If it's not too late, you should be asking for the max.
are you saying i should have asked for the max when filing the papers? if so, i missed the boat on that. i thought i was supposed to file for property damage and then ask for additional punitive damages once in court.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,505
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Anonymous #1]
#20759685 - 10/27/14 02:15 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous said:
tell me if i'm wrong, but if he is found guilty of illegally entering the residence, how can he charge me for cleaning the place while he was there illegally? the pictures taken of the place the night of the 31st show it in spotless condition, so any cleaning he did was completed by the end of the day, and not the 2+ days, $1000+ worth of cleaning he is counterclaiming.
He won't be found "guilty" of anything. This isn't a criminal matter. His illegal entry is probably not a crime, and even if it was, he wasn't charged with it. What matters in this case is how his illegal conduct harmed you, and how much, if any, of that harm is offset by the damages done by your illegal conduct (damaging the property).
Your pictures are evidence to support:
1. The property was clean BEFORE your right to possess legally ended. 2. He probably didn't spend two days cleaning, and 3. If he did, it was unnecessary.
Quote:
i have a copy of every check going back all the way to the beginning, so i'm thinking it would be pointless for him to try and argue that. plus, i will have a statement from the roommate who wrote the check stating as much. i also have an electricity bill for August 1-25. Part of his counterclaim is that I allowed the electricity to be shut off, which caused food to rot in the fridge. He told me to shut the electricity off after his wife switched it over after a week. I waited over two weeks, but I guess the positive side is having a bill for the (majority of) the month of August is more evidence to support the fact that we had not abandoned the apartment.
The rent checks are helpful, yes. The electricity issue is problematic unless you have some evidence of him telling you to disconnect after a week. Still, how much damage can he really claim for rotten food in a fridge? Not much.
Quote:
are you saying i should have asked for the max when filing the papers? if so, i missed the boat on that. i thought i was supposed to file for property damage and then ask for additional punitive damages once in court.
Probably, yes...every court is different, and small claims is kinda the "wild west" of courts. You may or may not be able to get more than you originally asked for. Fight for every penny, and the judge will decide.
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shroom_sensai


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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Enlil]
#20784589 - 11/02/14 03:36 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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keep us updated, i want to know how this story unfolds
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Yrat
Hello

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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: shroom_sensai]
#20839706 - 11/15/14 06:47 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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*
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
Edited by Yrat (01/06/15 12:59 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Yrat]
#20839781 - 11/15/14 07:37 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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If this is small claims court, you won't get past the second sentence before the judge stops you. I can help you here, but I need to know: Is this small claims?
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Yrat
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Yrat]
#20839793 - 11/15/14 07:41 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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*
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
Edited by Yrat (01/06/15 12:59 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Yrat]
#20839860 - 11/15/14 08:18 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Does it say that on the court website? I've never seen a small claims judge let a litigant talk for 5 minutes without interrupting. Maybe in small towns where they don't have so many cases...
In any case, you can have your prepared statement, but you also have to have a backup in case you get interrupted. The judge is not likely to want to hear a story. He want's the relevant facts and that's it. Also, after you're interrupted, it's easy to forget important facts that have to come out. Here are the important facts in logical order of presentation:
1. Defendant is my former landlord 2. Rent was paid through the end of August 3. Defendant threw my belongings away on August 31 4. My belongings included A, B, C, etc plus many things I can't possibly remember today.
For each of the above, be prepared to offer evidence, because the judge will likely ask...except 1. The defendant will concede that fact. He might concede 2 as well, but if not, have proof of payment. For 3, the voicemails and any police report will suffice. For 4, your testimony will likely suffice. If he challenges your account of how much he threw out, then he's pretty much conceding number 3.
In any case, keep in mind the above facts. If you don't get them out right away, be sure to get them out. It's easy for things to get lost in the process. The most likely one to get missed is 2 and the date on 3. those are also very important. A judge is likely to see this as a typical "stuff left behind, landlord throws them out" case. It isn't. Those cases are normally about stuff left AFTER the rental period. The fact that this happened DURING the rental period makes it look far worse for the landlord, although the measure of damages is pretty much the same.
As far as his claims against you, he's going to get the opportunity to argue those. You don't have to bring those up in your opening, because he has the burden of proving them, and you have the burden of rebutting his proof if he has any.
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Yrat
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Enlil]
#20839881 - 11/15/14 08:27 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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*
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
Edited by Yrat (01/06/15 12:59 PM)
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Yrat
Hello

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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Yrat]
#20839954 - 11/15/14 08:54 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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*
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
Edited by Yrat (01/06/15 12:59 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Landlord changed locks and threw out stuff last day of month [Re: Yrat]
#20839980 - 11/15/14 09:02 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I seriously doubt his lawyer is going to argue that the roommate was the only tenant in August based on who paid the rent. That's a dead-end argument. Unless you gave him WRITTEN NOTICE that you were moving out at the end of July, he has nothing here. The name on the check is irrelevant.
I would amend #3 to say, "On August 31, 2013, the last day of the lease, the defendant entered the apartment without prior written notice and threw away my remaining belongings."
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