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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18819327 - 09/09/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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The Wall Street Journal published a figure of $1.7 trillion in March, if you find that to be any more credible.
On the other hand, your little website that you linked doesn't cite any sources at all.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil]
#18819362 - 09/09/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Enlil
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18819369 - 09/09/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Good, so there you have it. The site only includes allocations, but it doesn't include the cost of the interest on the money borrowed to pay those allocations. That's why their figure is decidedly lower than everyone else who has calculated the cost of the Iraq war. I've seen figures as high as 3, 6, and 8.8 trillion, but I chose the figure that seemed to be better supported.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil] 1
#18819481 - 09/09/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cost of interest? Why should there be any cost of interest included? I bought my house for around 900K. I shudder to think what the total cost with interest will be if we don't pay it off ahead of time. But I don't tell anybody it cost me 3 million (or whatever). We could have paid for all of Iraq and Afghanistan with less than the money we gave bums in one year. Keep shucking and jiving, shyster.
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18819498 - 09/09/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just because you don't tell anyone doesn't mean you don't pay it...Maybe you prefer the ostrich technique whereby you ignore inconvenient hidden costs such as interest, but whether you ignore it or not, it still is part of the cost.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil] 1
#18819607 - 09/09/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is no reason why the largest financial entity in the history of the planet should ever have to borrow money and it is utterly moronic to ascribe the cost of a war to interest when we are borrowing ten times as much annually to give shit to bums. Every cent of interest payments is due to giving shit to bums.
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Enlil
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18819654 - 09/09/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Every dime we spend on anything becomes income for someone and generates commerce and revenue for the federal government. You seem to think that spending 2.4 trillion dollars on wars against nations that posed no threat to us to be a better use of money than spending it to keep citizens of this nation healthier and fed. That's your opinion, and it's a perfectly valid one.
I have a different opinion, however. I see ZERO benefit to the wars we've been funding, and I believe that we are less secure as a nation because of them. I see only a marginal benefit to the public assistance programs, but a marginal benefit is still better than a zero benefit/negative return from war.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil] 1
#18819786 - 09/09/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Every dime we spend on anything becomes income for someone and generates commerce and revenue for the federal government.
The only revenue the federal government has comes from confiscation. Quote:
You seem to think that spending 2.4 trillion dollars on wars against nations that posed no threat to us to be a better use of money than spending it to keep citizens of this nation healthier and fed.
Nobody in this country is not fed and there is no evidence that government health insurance makes people healthier.Quote:
That's your opinion, and it's a perfectly valid one.
Oh thank you so much.[
The money keeps going up with you. From everything I've seen there is less than 1T in direct costs for both of them.Quote:
I have a different opinion, however. I see ZERO benefit to the wars we've been funding, and I believe that we are less secure as a nation because of them.
We are less secure because we have an inconsistent feckless President Quote:
I see only a marginal benefit to the public assistance programs, but a marginal benefit is still better than a zero benefit/negative return from war.
Do you think there is no public gain in prosecuting murders even though it is expensive to pursue and expensive to house the criminals? I don't think that you have thought this through.
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18819805 - 09/09/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've certainly thought this through. Prosecuting murders is a necessary part of an ordered society. Flying thousands of troops halfway around the world to oust the impotent ruler of an irrelevant country is not.
As far as the 1.9 trillion figure, that's what it is for Iraq. It's 2.4 for both Iraq and Afghanistan. You may not like that we pay interest on money we spend, but we do. Get used to the idea.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil]
#18819874 - 09/09/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I've certainly thought this through. Prosecuting murders is a necessary part of an ordered society. Flying thousands of troops halfway around the world to oust the impotent ruler of an irrelevant country is not.
Iraq?Quote:
As far as the 1.9 trillion figure, that's what it is for Iraq. It's 2.4 for both Iraq and Afghanistan. You may not like that we pay interest on money we spend, but we do. Get used to the idea.
We aren't paying interest on that money we are paying interest on the bum money. In 2011 alone we gave away more than ten years of war costs in means tested gifts that does not include soc sec or medicare. So are we to perform the same calculus on those gifts? That would make them 2.5T a year by your figures. That means that the Obamaphone pig's phone actually costs about 3 times what it seems to cost.
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Enlil
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18819908 - 09/09/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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We should include the interest on all of it, of course. Your argument is because we spend a shitload of money on stuff we shouldn't, it's okay if we spend a shitload of money on other stuff we shouldn't
I'm not arguing that we should redirect that money to social programs. I'm arguing that we shouldn't be spending 2.4 trillion on pointless wars.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil]
#18819970 - 09/09/13 06:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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The amount has no limit by your calculus. I'm going to repeat myself. There is no reason why the single largest fiscal entity on earth should have any interest costs at all. They should have interest income. War expenses are utterly irrelevant in the greater theater of gross mismanagement
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Enlil
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18819981 - 09/09/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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We shouldn't, but we do. As long as we do, we should include those interest costs when determining the true cost of any undertaking.
Interestingly, throughout all of this, you've yet to answer even one of my questions. Do you really believe that the money we've spent on these two wars (whether 2.4 trillion or another figure) has been money well spent?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil]
#18819998 - 09/09/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: We shouldn't, but we do. As long as we do, we should include those interest costs when determining the true cost of any undertaking.
Interestingly, throughout all of this, you've yet to answer even one of my questions. Do you really believe that the money we've spent on these two wars (whether 2.4 trillion or another figure) has been money well spent?
It's under a trillion for both over the entirety and yes, I think they were mandatory expenses. As I have expressed numerous times.
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Enlil
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18820010 - 09/09/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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And what, exactly, do you contend that we've gotten for our money?
P.S. Even your site places the number at almost 1.5 trillion for both combined.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil]
#18820061 - 09/09/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
These figures include both military and non-military spending, such as reconstruction.
What did we get for our money? Until President Stupid took over, FEAR.
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Enlil
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18820081 - 09/09/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Fear doesn't make us any more secure....at least not from attacks by people willing to die to harm us. Suicide hijackers fear no reprisals.
P.S. The cost of a war includes military and non-military spending (along with the interest to fund)
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil] 1
#18820251 - 09/09/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Fear doesn't make us any more secure....at least not from attacks by people willing to die to harm us. Suicide hijackers fear no reprisals.
Not everybody is a suicide attacking nutlogQuote:
P.S. The cost of a war includes military and non-military spending (along with the interest to fund)
I don't agree with including interest as a cost. If you pay cash interest is not relevant. Interest is a result of borrowing and not assignable to any particular expense. Money is fungible. You might as well say that the interest on the federal debt is assignable to Pell Grants, which is not a federal responsibility as is foreign relations.
I cxannot stress this enough. The Empty Pants Cunt has completely eliminated any sense in the world that we have balls. His diplomacy is exactly the same as his baseball throwing
What a fucking homo.
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Enlil
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18820310 - 09/09/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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No nation on the planet can hope to defeat us in a straight up military confrontation. That hasn't been in question for decades. The only real threats we face now are from obsessed zealots who care nothing for their own lives. We can't beat them by putting fear in them, and invading their lands only creates a next generation of people who have the same passionate hatred for us.
When we kill 100 people, their children grow up to hate us. A small percentage of those children grow up hating us enough to give his life to harm us. It only took 19 such whack jobs to take down the towers and damage the pentagon.
Waging wars in foreign lands when they don't pose a threat to us can only harm us in the long run. It doesn't make us any safer.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama is full of it. [Re: Enlil]
#18820340 - 09/09/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: No nation on the planet can hope to defeat us in a straight up military confrontation. That hasn't been in question for decades. The only real threats we face now are from obsessed zealots who care nothing for their own lives. We can't beat them by putting fear in them, and invading their lands only creates a next generation of people who have the same passionate hatred for us.
We need to eliminate their safe havens. It is not so easy to organize that kind of crap and the Taliban enabled it and then wouldn't turn the fucks over even though they could have. Fuck 'em, they are scum anyway.Quote:
When we kill 100 people, their children grow up to hate us. A small percentage of those children grow up hating us enough to give his life to harm us. It only took 19 such whack jobs to take down the towers and damage the pentagon.
Waging wars in foreign lands when they don't pose a threat to us can only harm us in the long run. It doesn't make us any safer.
By your calculus nobody poses a threat to us. But they do pose threats to our allies. See Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Don't give me any bullshit that the attackers were Saudi so Saudi Arabia bears responsibility. Osama had been a fugitive from Saudi Arabia for many years.
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