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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down * 5
    #18774605 - 08/29/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.raptitude.com/2010/10/9-mind-bending-epiphanies-that-turned-my-world-upside-down/

***
Over the years I’ve learned dozens of little tricks and insights for making life more fulfilling. They’ve added up to a significant improvement in the ease and quality of my day-to-day life. But the major breakthroughs have come from a handful of insights that completely rocked my world and redefined reality forever.

The world now seems to be a completely different one than the one I lived in about ten years ago, when I started looking into the mechanics of quality of life. It wasn’t the world (and its people) that changed really, it was how I thought of it.

Maybe you’ve had some of  the same insights. Or maybe you’re about to.

1. You are not your mind.


The first time I heard somebody say that,  I didn’t like the sound of it one bit. What else could I be? I had taken for granted that the mental chatter in my head was the central “me” that all the experiences in my life were happening to.

I see quite clearly now that life is nothing but passing experiences, and my thoughts are just one more category of things I experience. Thoughts are no more fundamental than smells, sights and sounds. Like any experience, they arise in my awareness, they have a certain texture, and then they give way to something else.

If you can observe your thoughts just like you can observe other objects, who’s doing the observing? Don’t answer too quickly. This question, and its unspeakable answer, are at the center of all the great religions and spiritual traditions.

2. Life unfolds only in moments.

Of course! I once called this the most important thing I ever learned. Nobody has ever experienced anything that wasn’t part of a single moment unfolding. That means life’s only challenge is dealing with the single moment you are having right now. Before I recognized this, I was constantly trying to solve my entire life — battling problems that weren’t actually happening. Anyone can summon the resolve to deal with a single, present moment, as long as they are truly aware that it’s their only point of contact with life, and therefore there is nothing else one can do that can possibly be useful. Nobody can deal with the past or future, because, both only exist as thoughts, in the present. But we can kill ourselves trying.

3. Quality of life is determined by how you deal with your moments, not which moments happen and which don’t.

I now consider this truth to be Happiness 101, but it’s amazing how tempting it still is to grasp at control of every circumstance to try to make sure I get exactly what I want. To encounter an undesirable situation and work with it willingly is the mark of a wise and happy person. Imagine getting a flat tire, falling ill at a bad time, or knocking something over and breaking it — and suffering nothing from it. There is nothing to fear if you agree with yourself to deal willingly with adversity whenever it does show up. That is how to make life better. The typical, low-leverage method is to hope that you eventually accumulate power over your circumstances so that you can get what you want more often. There’s an excellent line in a Modest Mouse song, celebrating this side-effect of wisdom: As life gets longer, awful feels softer.

4. Most of life is imaginary.

Human beings have a habit of compulsive thinking that is so pervasive that we lose sight of the fact that we are nearly always thinking. Most of what we interact with is not the world itself, but our beliefs about it, our expectations of it, and our personal interests in it. We have a very difficult time observing something without confusing it with the thoughts we have about it, and so the bulk of what we experience in life is imaginary things. As Mark Twain said: “I’ve been through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened.” The best treatment I’ve found? Cultivating mindfulness.

5. Human beings have evolved to suffer, and we are better at suffering than anything else.

Yikes. It doesn’t sound like a very liberating discovery. I used to believe that if I was suffering it meant that there was something wrong with me — that I was doing life “wrong.” Suffering is completely human and completely normal, and there is a very good reason for its existence. Life’s persistent background hum of “this isn’t quite okay, I need to improve this,” coupled with occasional intense flashes of horror and adrenaline are what kept human beings alive for millions of years. This urge to change or escape the present moment drives nearly all of our behavior. It’s a simple and ruthless survival mechanism which works exceedingly well for keeping us alive, but it has a horrific side effect: human beings suffer greatly by their very nature. This, for me, redefined every one of life’s problems as some tendril of the human condition. As grim as it sounds, this insight is liberating because it means: 1) that suffering does not necessarily mean my life is going wrong, 2) that the ball is always in my court, so the degree to which I suffer is ultimately up to me, and 3) that all problems have the same cause and the same solution.

6. Emotions exist to make us biased.


This discovery was a complete 180 from my old understanding of emotions. I used to think my emotions were reliable indicators of the state of my life — of whether I’m on the right track or not. Your passing emotional states can’t be trusted for measuring your self-worth or your position in life, but they are great at teaching you what it is you can’t let go of. The trouble is that emotions make us both more biased and more forceful at the same time. Another survival mechanism with nasty side-effects.

7. All people operate from the same two motivations: to fulfill their desires and to escape their suffering.

Learning this allowed me to finally make sense of how people can hurt each other so badly. The best explanation I had before this was that some people are just bad. What a cop-out. No matter what kind of behavior other people exhibit, they are acting in the most effective way they are capable of (at that moment) to fulfill a desire or to relieve their suffering. These are motives we can all understand; we only vary in method, and the methods each of us has at our disposal depend on our upbringing and our experiences in life, as well as our state of consciousness. Some methods are skillful and helpful to others, others are unskillful and destructive, and almost all destructive behavior is unconscious. So there is no good and evil, only smart and dumb (or wise and foolish.) Understanding this completely shook my long-held notions of morality and justice.

8. Beliefs are nothing to be proud of.

Believing something is not an accomplishment. I grew up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they’re really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because “strength of belief” is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you’ve made it a part of your ego. Listen to any “die-hard” conservative or liberal talk about their deepest beliefs and you are listening to somebody who will never hear what you say on any matter that matters to them — unless you believe the same. It is gratifying to speak forcefully, it is gratifying to be agreed with, and this high is what the die-hards are chasing. Wherever there is a belief, there is a closed door. Take on the beliefs that stand up to your most honest, humble scrutiny, and never be afraid to lose them.

9. Objectivity is subjective.


Life is a subjective experience and that cannot be escaped. Every experience I have comes through my own, personal, unsharable viewpoint. There can be no peer reviews of my direct experience, no real corroboration. This has some major implications for how I live my life. The most immediate one is that I realize I must trust my own personal experience, because nobody else has this angle, and I only have this angle. Another is that I feel more wonder for the world around me, knowing that any “objective” understanding I claim to have of the world is built entirely from scratch, by me. What I do build depends on the books I’ve read, the people I’ve met, and the experiences I’ve had. It means I will never see the world quite like anyone else, which means I will never live in quite the same world as anyone else — and therefore I mustn’t let outside observers be the authority on who I am or what life is really like for me. Subjectivity is primary experience — it is real life, and objectivity is something each of us builds on top of it in our minds, privately, in order to explain it all. This truth has world-shattering implications for the roles of religion and science in the lives of those who grasp it.

***


What you you all think of the list? It seems pretty grounded to me.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18774639 - 08/29/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18774683 - 08/29/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Can you attest to this one? "As life gets longer, awful feels softer." :smile:


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Offlinedeff
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18774733 - 08/29/13 07:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

looks like a good list to me :smile:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18774806 - 08/29/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Can you attest to this one? "As life gets longer, awful feels softer." :smile:





No, not in my experience. It feels worse and worse but your ability to stand suffering improves. :satansmoking: And you realize you won't have to be here that much longer. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18774852 - 08/29/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Great list. I see little to disagree with. Maybe point 7 if I was going to be pedantic.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblecez
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: viktor]
    #18774880 - 08/29/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

How could you argue against point 7?


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: viktor]
    #18774884 - 08/29/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, point 7 seems to drop away as desires drop away.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18774910 - 08/29/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

To escape suffering is a desire.

As long as you are alive, you can't permanently escape suffering...At least ime.

Even if you become "enlightened," I suspect you will still feel some sort of suffering.
I imagine an enlightened being just doesn't quantify the feeling as such.


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18774950 - 08/29/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You are brilliant C0sm0.
Number 8 is especially appealing to me.
This is the kind of writing I enjoy reading more than anything else and I sincerely appreciate the effort and time you took to piece this together, it has changed my life.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18775435 - 08/29/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I loved it. :psychsplit:

The only thing is, couldn't #8 be a little hypocritical? I agree with a lot of the list, and took a lot from it, but isn't the author flaunting his or her beliefs? The title of the article was about how these 9 beliefs turned their world upside.

To go off their point #8:
Quote:

because “strength of belief” is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself.




These points have some kind of strength to the author, which is why they wanted to write about them. :lol:

Could be misinterpreting it as well. Just something that popped in my mind. Thanks for sharing. I liked it a lot.


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InvisibleThe Phleg
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18775465 - 08/29/13 10:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well said. :thumbup:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: cez]
    #18775496 - 08/29/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
How could you argue against point 7?




It seems to me that one can be motivated to do things because they are correct, not only because one is motivated by pain or pleasure. So one can escape suffering not by desiring it but because it would be correct to do so and one's individual will does not enter into it.

I actually think the paragraph accompanying this point is brilliant, so perhaps I only have an issue with the wording of the summarised version.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18775598 - 08/29/13 11:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for sharing cosmo; this article gave me plenty of new insight on life to consider. :thumbup:
I have no criticism to offer, 5:mushroom2: for this, really insightful and mind opening article!


Edited by greencrush420 (08/30/13 03:38 PM)


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Offlineiarphairc
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: greencrush420]
    #18776190 - 08/30/13 06:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Posting to come back to this as nescessary :smile:

Thanks OP!


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The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant- Maximilien Robespierre


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Offlinewoaronun
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: iarphairc]
    #18776363 - 08/30/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Tmethyl]
    #18777971 - 08/30/13 03:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
You are brilliant C0sm0.
Number 8 is especially appealing to me.
This is the kind of writing I enjoy reading more than anything else and I sincerely appreciate the effort and time you took to piece this together, it has changed my life.




Full disclosure this is not my original material, I linked the article at the top. I enjoyed it as well.


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18778124 - 08/30/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I would argue about 5, 6, and 7.

I dont think emotions exist to bias necessarily. Emotions seem to be survival tools, but then again that could have been what you meant.

Also I think unhappiness and desire are simply a product of a point of view/ of a consciousness.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Yogi1]
    #18778537 - 08/30/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: i heavenly enjoyed reading this, and it's something i think i would want to bookmark my mind with for some time more.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: viktor]
    #18778780 - 08/30/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

cez said:
How could you argue against point 7?




It seems to me that one can be motivated to do things because they are correct, not only because one is motivated by pain or pleasure. So one can escape suffering not by desiring it but because it would be correct to do so and one's individual will does not enter into it.




In this case the immediate justification is correctness, but the ultimate motivation is still that of pleasure: doing correct things is pleasureful.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: deCypher]
    #18779185 - 08/30/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's possible. It's also possible that there is a form of correctness that exists beyond the pleasure/pain principle.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt] * 1
    #18779466 - 08/30/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Points 5, 6 and 7 deal with emotions and IMHO, that's why some people don't agree that much but that's some good stuff for sure. I guess it all boils down to point 1: if you're not your mind, you can be whatever you want. Kant had this idea of the "structures of the mind" to explain how we conceptualize reality. That those structures gave meaning to the experience. It seems, the simple awareness of such idea can be a trigger to conceptualize our own ego. As we visualize this structures, we start to understand the very foundation of what we are. We can start questioning our cultural dogmas, managing our personal dilemmas and controlling our emotions. We understand what the word "belief" really means. In fact one of the biggest epiphanies I had, was that I needed to understand what things I can control and what things I can't control. What is acceptance and what is willingness. Knowing, which is which, gave me some insight about how can I influence reality.


I think, we go around in a experience that seems real to us and we agree on it. But some might say we're all hallucinating. All the senses create this place we call reality the way it is and we believe in it. Fact is, we also can control what we believe. On a global level, the power to recreate ourselves, and part of this reality, has been always at hand.


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Invisibleteknix
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18780215 - 08/31/13 02:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I strongly disagree with #9.


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OfflineFryer Mike
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18780706 - 08/31/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

"7. All people operate from the same two motivations: to fulfill their desires and to escape their suffering."

I disagree with this on a few levels.

"No matter what kind of behavior other people exhibit, they are acting in the most effective way they are capable of (at that moment) to fulfill a desire or to relieve their suffering."

I think this is much too too simple of a generalization of all behavior. You're forgetting a situation in which a person is not acting for themselves, but for another. You're saying that every action a human performs is a selfish one, but I have to disagree. I think humans are fully capable of performing un-selfish acts. These un-selfish acts are sometimes performed to relieve suffering withing ones self, but are also acted out to relieve other people's suffering. This stems from the  phenomenon of sympathy, which is rare among mammals.

Also, people aren't always acting in the most effective way they are capable of acting. This is arguable, but your emotions and experience alter your ability to reach your full potential in any situation. So, by bypassing these limitations, one can reach a higher potential than if they hadn't bypassed them.

"almost all destructive behavior is unconscious."

This is straight up wrong. This may be true in your case, but I know a lot of people who are very aware of their destructive behavior. Also the term destructive behavior is so subjective that your generalization loses all credibility.

In addition, "good" and "evil" are also subjective, and shouldn't have even been mentioned. Some people are suffering because they aren't able to commit what I would perceive as an "evil" act. They might view it as a "good" act, depending on their motivation, but others would see it differently.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Fryer Mike]
    #18780971 - 08/31/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, using the word all makes for  an absolute statement that is generally pretty easy to disprove. Many people operate to fulfill others desires. Then some might only worry about their needs.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18781176 - 08/31/13 12:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My question would be why do we choose to fulfill the needs of others?  If I do something for others it's because I feel good about it or it feels right to me. Otherwise I wouldn't and I never heard of anyone that would.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Invisibleteknix
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18781220 - 08/31/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

How do you correlate that to personal desire?

I think it is a by-product of good intent and motive, which makes us feel good. I don't think the intent is necessarily to feel good, but to help someone in need. If you feel good about it is besides the point, unless that was the motive in the first place.

Maybe you buy your girlfriend things because you think she will have sex with you later, that says your intent was to feel good, rather than to help someone out. I don't think that everyone thinks like that.

There is a lot of people who volunteer, not to feel good, but to do good. Because to do good is the right thing to do . . .

Maybe all of your actions are self-serving, but does that mean that everyone elses is as well?



Edited by teknix (08/31/13 12:46 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18781261 - 08/31/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I would like to question this:
Quote:


9. Objectivity is subjective.

Life is a subjective experience and that cannot be escaped. Every experience I have comes through my own, personal, unsharable viewpoint. There can be no peer reviews of my direct experience, no real corroboration. This has some major implications for how I live my life. The most immediate one is that I realize I must trust my own personal experience, because nobody else has this angle, and I only have this angle. Another is that I feel more wonder for the world around me, knowing that any “objective” understanding I claim to have of the world is built entirely from scratch, by me. What I do build depends on the books I’ve read, the people I’ve met, and the experiences I’ve had. It means I will never see the world quite like anyone else, which means I will never live in quite the same world as anyone else — and therefore I mustn’t let outside observers be the authority on who I am or what life is really like for me. Subjectivity is primary experience — it is real life, and objectivity is something each of us builds on top of it in our minds, privately, in order to explain it all. This truth has world-shattering implications for the roles of religion and science in the lives of those who grasp it





Ok, if you are building an objective world by yourself, then it is subjective, but all your doing is imposing the meaning of subjective over the word objective, because the objective can be correlated by many more than yourself. Such as earths gravity, it doesn't matter how you look at it, you jump off something your going to fall if you don't have anything to hold you up . . . objectively . . . Regardless of what you think is going to happen or what you think about gravity.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18781653 - 08/31/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think it is a by-product of good intent and motive, which makes us feel good. I don't think the intent is necessarily to feel good, but to help someone in need. If you feel good about it is besides the point, unless that was the motive in the first place.

I think that absolutely is our primary motive.  We act in ways that serve our belief systems.  If my belief is that it is right and good to serve others even if it costs me materially or otherwise then I will do it. I have chosen the greatest good for myself according to my beliefs.  If I do not believe that I won't as it goes against my highest desires about who I am, what is good or right or beautiful if you will. 


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18781665 - 08/31/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it is a by-product of good intent and motive, which makes us feel good. I don't think the intent is necessarily to feel good, but to help someone in need. If you feel good about it is besides the point, unless that was the motive in the first place.

I think that absolutely is our primary motive.  We act in ways that serve our belief systems.  If my belief is that it is right and good to serve others even if it costs me materially or otherwise then I will do it. I have chosen the greatest good for myself according to my beliefs.  If I do not believe that I won't as it goes against my highest desires about who I am, what is good or right or beautiful if you will. 




:thumbup:


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: deCypher]
    #18781695 - 08/31/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Agree with most of them

We are not our thoughts, not our bodies etc. (but the one observing our thoughts, deciding if we want to associate with them)

The same inside that we've always been, only outside changes

acceptance is better than anger,hate,worrying,frustration,fear,judging etc.

we're all the same, the soul is equally great in every living creature
we're not unique

live in the moment without worries, accept and appreciate

live by what makes you happy and others happy, that's the true self

I haven't really changed, still the same, but not the same as what I thought I were for many years anymore :-)

peace


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: lessismore]
    #18781741 - 08/31/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Also there is no reality

Nothing is real, everything is perceived

Your world is very different from everybody else's world, like OP says
each world is subjective

Turn off thoughts to see everything closer to what it is, observe

Nothing seems to exist, but soul seems to exist, even if it is the same soul
You are everything

We're not unique, but very similar

Being human is to be controlled by own thoughts/desires/emotions, we need to break free from that

Be grateful, accept everything as is, appreciate everything and yourself
Accept and forgive instead of hate, for hate is pointless
Never worry , observe thoughts, accept them as they come, let them pass
Bring happiness to others, a helping hand is never forgotten (giving is better than receiving)

No doubt, no worries, no frustration, no fear  , only acceptance and appreciation

"My heart is my soul, the brain is my servant" , do what you love at all times


Edited by lessismore (08/31/13 04:06 PM)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: lessismore]
    #18781758 - 08/31/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Also there is no reality

You can't know that. :wink:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782437 - 08/31/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think it is a by-product of good intent and motive, which makes us feel good. I don't think the intent is necessarily to feel good, but to help someone in need. If you feel good about it is besides the point, unless that was the motive in the first place.

I think that absolutely is our primary motive.  We act in ways that serve our belief systems.  If my belief is that it is right and good to serve others even if it costs me materially or otherwise then I will do it. I have chosen the greatest good for myself according to my beliefs.  If I do not believe that I won't as it goes against my highest desires about who I am, what is good or right or beautiful if you will. 




You can't know that, unless you think you know everyones motive and intent, so where do you get off making such a conclusion? Do you think  You are omniscient or a mind reader, or just a quack, or what? Teh all mighty icelander, comes to tell use what we think and give us our motive and intent! All hail teh superior being!


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782450 - 08/31/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Experience, observation and study for a 60 year lifetime.

You seem to take my responses to you quite personally.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782452 - 08/31/13 06:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, so after 60 years you get to think you can read minds huh . . .

:eek:


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782459 - 08/31/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I said I think.  You need to read better.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (08/31/13 06:55 PM)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782464 - 08/31/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Then why are you arguing against the premise that all is most likely incorrect?


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782468 - 08/31/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Because it's what I believe of course.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782476 - 08/31/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Experience, observation and study for a 60 year lifetime.

You seem to take my responses to you quite personally.




Nah, I just generally disagree with most everything you say on principle.


Edited by teknix (08/31/13 07:47 PM)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782482 - 08/31/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well that's not very openminded at all.  What a shocker.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782532 - 08/31/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Seems like that's what you been doing to me the past 4 years I've been posting. If your argument isn't sound, I feel obliged to point it out. It has nothing to do with an open or closed mind, it has to do with illogical arguments, which you seem to make a lot of.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782545 - 08/31/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Because it's what I believe of course.




So now your an admitted believer . . . What a shocker!


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782555 - 08/31/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Go back and read what you said.  You said you disagree on principle.  You didn't say you disagree on merit. That's closed minded.

Seems like that's what you been doing to me the past 4 years I've been posting.


Too bad you have to take my disagreeing with you at times so personally. And I don't always disagree with you btw.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782590 - 08/31/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, the principle is that you do the same to me. So I disagree with the merit of your arguments in principle?


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782597 - 08/31/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Principle - a normative rule or code of conduct.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782626 - 08/31/13 07:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Well, the principle is that you do the same to me. So I disagree with the merit of your arguments in principle?




No I don't which I stated. You disagree on principle and I disagree on merit.  Sometimes I agree with you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782631 - 08/31/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Principle - a normative rule or code of conduct.




That phrase means that you disagree no matter what I say and I assume you know that.  Why back out of what you mean now?  Own it. It's not going to kill anybody.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782632 - 08/31/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Sometimes I agree with you, so what's your point? No, I question your logic, that is the normative code of conduct. (IE; I question yours, you question mine.) Why do you seem offended or put off by it all of a sudden?

Isn't that what you do? I think you might just be realizing that I've just been doing back to you, what you do to many others.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782647 - 08/31/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That phrase you used doesn't mean that. 

I'm not offended in the least and have made a point of telling you that. You one the other hand are holding a 4 year grudge. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782652 - 08/31/13 07:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

LOL, I don't have any grudge, I just question your logic, in principle, and most generally it ends up in a disagreement, happy now?

Nice job of switching the topic from your personal beliefs, which you give people shit about quite often.

quid pro quo bro!


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782687 - 08/31/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That phrase you used doesn't mean that. 

I'm not offended in the least and have made a point of telling you that. You one the other hand are holding a 4 year grudge. :shrug:





You're right, the paragraph didn't say what I meant.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782688 - 08/31/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:  See. I agree with you. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (08/31/13 07:46 PM)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782699 - 08/31/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

As did I you!
omgzwtf is going on.

You are agreeing with yourself more than you are with me. You are simply accepting that I recanted my sentence . . .


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782703 - 08/31/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Oh snaps  :ohboycomputer:


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782730 - 08/31/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
As did I you!
omgzwtf is going on.

You are agreeing with yourself more than you are with me. You are simply accepting that I recanted my sentence . . .




I know that.:wink:  I was just having a little fun with you to try and lighten this up.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782778 - 08/31/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

(or gloating)

So why do you choose to believe such things you don't or can't know?

(Because it makes you feel good?)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782801 - 08/31/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Nothing can be known as a certainty as far as I know.  Yet without believing in things that seem to have a preponderance of evidence we can't navigate this world.  If you wait to act until you have absolute certainty that a car speeding at you will strike you and injure you it will be too late.

So I take my best guess just like everyone I've ever seen or known seems to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782816 - 08/31/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

But does it make you feel good to think everyone is self-serving?

(there-in lies the crux of your argument.)

I will gladly trade my pawn for your queen ^.^


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782837 - 08/31/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No it does not.  Much of what I have come to believe is not what I would prefer to be true.  :shrug:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782841 - 08/31/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think you should contemplate whether this has devolved into semantics.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782909 - 08/31/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think that absolutely is our primary motive.  We act in ways that serve our belief systems.  If my belief is that it is right and good to serve others even if it costs me materially or otherwise then I will do it. I have chosen the greatest good for myself according to my beliefs.  If I do not believe that I won't as it goes against my highest desires about who I am, what is good or right or beautiful if you will. 




Do you see the contradiction? Your primary motive isn't to feel good, but to unravel the truth as best as you can . . .

So does everyone mean everyone except you?


Edited by teknix (08/31/13 08:45 PM)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18782937 - 08/31/13 08:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There is no contradiction.  My sense of honesty with myself is more important to me than whether I feel great about the truths I learn.  That's what I hold dearest and gives me the greatest satisfaction in my life.  If I didn't feel that way I'd willfully lie to myself if it would work. So I'm always working in my best interests as I see them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18782988 - 08/31/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, so you're saying that your primary motive is to feel good, but it is actually to achieve a personal satisfaction ?

It doesn't seem like you are basing your life on what makes you feel good to me, that is called care ethics . . ., When feelings are put above rationale.

So which is more valuable to you, feelings or rationale?


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18783000 - 08/31/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It's not unheard of for people to consider justice or feelings or culture or tradition or beliefs or rationale and logic, at the epitome of their being. (or what is most valuable to them, to say it is only their feelings doesn't fit into reality, imo)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18783009 - 08/31/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Feelings are. If being rational did not give me a feeling of satisfaction I'd dump it.  I really don't know how to feel good any other way. Or I would. Its' the feeling that counts for me at least.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18783018 - 08/31/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No you wouldn't, rationality makes you feel bad at times, just as your premise that everyone is self serving, yet you still use it and consider it above all else, regardless how it makes you feel. (I'm pretty sure that's what you said.)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18783031 - 08/31/13 09:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Wrong. While I might not be totally happy with what I find out rationally I am more unhappy believing a lie about it. A lot more unhappy.  Being rational makes me feel better than lying to myself.  It's the best way I know to make myself feel good.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18783043 - 08/31/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If You are unhappy because you know something to be untrue, then you aren't really believing in something you know to be untrue. Contradictions.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18783059 - 08/31/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

so? That does not change the point I'm making. Being rational no matter what I find out to be true makes me happier ignoring the truth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18783104 - 08/31/13 09:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It contradicts the point your making. You value rationality above feeling.

Or if you can't accept that, then maybe you do value feeling above rationality and aren't being at all logical in this instance, and being right is more important to you than the other two.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18783114 - 08/31/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Rationality makes me feel something in the same way that doing something for someone else does.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18783119 - 08/31/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Rationality makes me feel something in the same way that doing something for someone else does.




Huh?


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18783120 - 08/31/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Think about it in the context of this discussion. Both actions bring pleasure or a good feeling.  If I give up my last meal to another I may not feel good about being hungry but I feel even better about helping someone else.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18783169 - 08/31/13 09:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No, it doesn't make sense, because there are two different values being placed at the epitome in each situation. "Feeling good" need not be the intent of an action to bring about feeling good.

You do what is satisfying and is self-serving in general, but I don't see how that necessarily equates to everyone else doing the same.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18783183 - 08/31/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Feeling good or right precedes the decision.  You already have chosen your values that you approve of before hand. Then you can act on them almost without further thought.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18784403 - 09/01/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think feeling good is the primary motive, and as wisdom grows selflessness and feeling good become more in sync as ones idea of self expands to include others.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18784591 - 09/01/13 09:50 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly imo:thumbup: although I don't think "selflessness" is the correct term.  It's my belief that if one really finds their greatest happiness it also benefits others.  This can take many shapes and forms and is different for every individual to some degree. This may not apply to sociopaths however.  Who knows?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/01/13 09:53 AM)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18785116 - 09/01/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

What motivates psychopaths is still a mystery to me.

What does interest me, though, was recently learning that a lot of people are psychopaths in the sense that they do not feel fear or attachment to any meaningful degree but whom are not malicious. This means that they do not get a clinical diagnosis but are similar to psychopaths in many ways.

Like a surgeon who spends all days cutting living people open is often a psychopath by any measure besides criminal intent.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: viktor]
    #18785124 - 09/01/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
What motivates psychopaths is still a mystery to me.

What does interest me, though, was recently learning that a lot of people are psychopaths in the sense that they do not feel fear or attachment to any meaningful degree but whom are not malicious. This means that they do not get a clinical diagnosis but are similar to psychopaths in many ways.

Like a surgeon who spends all days cutting living people open is often a psychopath by any measure besides criminal intent.




:thumbup: I never thought about those qualities. I have attachment issues and dont fear very much, am I on the verge of getting hacky?


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: viktor]
    #18785328 - 09/01/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Most psychopaths are not serial murderers and such. It seems they are just born without the capacity to feel empathy or conscience.  In some whys they may be the lucky ones as you pointed out.  It would be hard to know how they really feel without being one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18786014 - 09/01/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Feeling good or right precedes the decision.  You already have chosen your values that you approve of before hand. Then you can act on them almost without further thought.




You are confusing what feels good with what is satisfying. Otherwise no one would ever be celibate.

Obviously satisfaction can and is relative, and can be numerous things as I previously mentioned. What is satisfying to a person is the determining factor, not being satisfied which isn't profound or at all helpful/useful in making distinctions.


Edited by teknix (09/01/13 04:28 PM)


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #18786118 - 09/01/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup:




--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: viktor]
    #18786289 - 09/01/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
What motivates psychopaths is still a mystery to me.

What does interest me, though, was recently learning that a lot of people are psychopaths in the sense that they do not feel fear or attachment to any meaningful degree but whom are not malicious. This means that they do not get a clinical diagnosis but are similar to psychopaths in many ways.

Like a surgeon who spends all days cutting living people open is often a psychopath by any measure besides criminal intent.




If you believe in soul it is not a mystery

Soul loss is responsible for most problems in the world

Our soul is the most holy gift we have, and our bodies should be appreciated

It's natural to be happy, else something is wrong... soul loss


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18786389 - 09/01/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Feeling good or right precedes the decision.  You already have chosen your values that you approve of before hand. Then you can act on them almost without further thought.




You are confusing what feels good with what is satisfying. Otherwise no one would ever be celibate.

Obviously satisfaction can and is relative, and can be numerous things as I previously mentioned. What is satisfying to a person is the determining factor, not being satisfied which isn't profound or at all helpful/useful in making distinctions.





Satisfaction and feeling good both go together in my life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: Icelander]
    #18786653 - 09/01/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

What is Satisfying is mental.

Feeling good doesn't require thought.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18786744 - 09/01/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What is Satisfying is mental.

Feeling good doesn't require thought.




In the middle of cumming I'm not thinking but I seem to feel good and satisfied.


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Re: 9 Mind-Bending Epiphanies That Turned My World Upside-Down [Re: teknix]
    #18786824 - 09/01/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What is Satisfying is mental.

Feeling good doesn't require thought.





One triggers the other for me.  If I feel good my thoughts are satisfying.  If my thoughts are satisfying I feel good.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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