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Offlineemphatik
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Work around a Pressure Cooker
    #18772234 - 08/29/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

So pressure cookers are basically needed for endospores in grain....

But couldn't we pre-sterilize grain in an oven, and then steam sterilize the grain jars in a pot, to circumvent having to use a pressure cooker?

P.S.: I have heard of mixed reviews regarding fractional sterilization.. So am not going that route.


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: emphatik]
    #18772254 - 08/29/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You can get one for 20 dollars(fits 4-5 quart jars) in the next week off of your local craigslist.... Seems like all of that is even more work.



Edited by Trusted cuItivator (08/29/13 09:44 AM)


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Offlineemphatik
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: emphatik]
    #18772283 - 08/29/13 09:53 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

hey. I do have a small one. But I was wondering if pre-sterilizing in an oven and then steaming in a pot wouldnt be an effective alternative.


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: emphatik]
    #18772296 - 08/29/13 10:00 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Roasting grains is only going to cause controlled degradation of the grains
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

Then these grains are going to be open air to be put into the jars your steam sterilizing (which you could do for 8-10 hours and be fine) but you still run the same risks then if you only do 60-90m plus now your grains are sub par quality to begin with.

This wouldn't even be called fractional sterilization it would be called wrong.
Fractional methods involve no roasting with dry heat and I don't think anyone recommends them. You would probably have more luck with a microwave.


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18772454 - 08/29/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Water needs pressure to exceed 100°C. Without pressure the grains will not exceed 100°C, which is needed to kill the endospores. The water will just evaporate and ruin the moisture content of the grain.

PC at 15psi for 90 minutes will bring the grains up to 121°C.


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Edited by Pestile (08/29/13 10:44 AM)


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Offlineemphatik
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: Pestile]
    #18772562 - 08/29/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

thanks for your response guys.
Yes atm I do use a pressure cooker to sterilize my spawn. i go 2 hours just to make sure my quart jars are ok.

But was wondering if only there were alternate ways.

To avoid grains from roasting what if you steamed them in an oven?

Have grains on the top rack & a deep tray or several trays of water in the bottom. The steam would stay in the oven for the most part and sterilize the grains.. no?

I want to know however at 0 psi what is the equivalent to 90 min of 121 C at 15psi for endospores to reach their thermal death time.


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: emphatik]
    #18772722 - 08/29/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Use your PC.

If it works, don't fix it.


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: Midnight Cyclone]
    #18772733 - 08/29/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Even if the oven did work for sterilizing grains, transfering the grains to the jars can't be done under sterile conditions unless you have a lab.  The moment they are exposed to air they'll be in contact with all the bacteria and mold spores that surround us at all times.


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InvisibleTranscendingLife
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: Midnight Cyclone]
    #18772754 - 08/29/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

A PC is the best way to "sterilize" your grains.
Fractional sterilization and other methods may work, but the success rates are WAY lower than using a PC.

Another point to remember, is that the pressure cooking process does not fully sterilize the grains.
We're trying to give the mushroom mycelium the best chance to colonize the grains before any endospores have the chance.


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: emphatik]
    #18772804 - 08/29/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

My advice is to buy the Biggest PC you can.  You will not be disappointed.


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: emphatik]
    #18772823 - 08/29/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

emphatik said:
I want to know however at 0 psi what is the equivalent to 90 min of 121 C at 15psi for endospores to reach their thermal death time.




That would be fractional sterilization, at best. But I don't ever think that will be the equivalent. Some things can survive +100°C.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: Pestile]
    #18772952 - 08/29/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I want to know however at 0 psi what is the equivalent to 90 min of 121 C at 15psi for endospores to reach their thermal death time.



8 hours. Although that's not the amount time it takes to destroy all the endospores. It's just enough to make the grains usable, like when you make BRF cakes. To actually completely sterilize the grains in one steaming session it would take over 30 hours.


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Edited by Kizzle (08/29/13 12:58 PM)


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: Kizzle]
    #18773122 - 08/29/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Pressure Cooking @ 15 PSI for 120 minutes doesn't kill all the bacterial endospores.

As far as capacity of the PC is concerned, you have several things to ponder when making your purchase:

1. How much are you willing to spend?
  - E.G. an AA930 costs over $300 with shipping while a Presto 23 quart costs less than $100 & can be purchased locally.

2. How long or what type of quality are you looking for?
  - E.G. AA's only require a bit of EVOO to lube up the metal to metal seal, while other PCs require replacing the rubber gasket.

3. How much spawn will you be "sterilizing" at a time.
  - E.G. an AA930 will fit 14 Quart jars, more than enough for 2 monotubs.


IMHO, I believe that All Americans are by far the best and most efficient way to go.
However, their cost is significantly more than their competitors, which is made up by not needing to replace parts as often.
Also, you can turn an AA PC into a sterilizer by purchasing a toggle valve & replacing the toggle weight.

AA25X (sterilizer)on the left & AA 930 (PC) on the right


AA25X holds 10 quart jars w/out the insert.


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Offlineemphatik
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: TranscendingLife]
    #18773652 - 08/29/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you for your responses guys.

The reason I had asked this is because I was planning on going to my cabin for a couple of months or so. I thought I could avoid taking the pressure cooker there, and still grow some mushrooms there.

Why I thought there would have been an alternative is because BRF cakes only require steaming water in a pot. However grains require PC sterilization only because of the endospores inside them.
So I thought If you steam sterilize grains at temps higher than 121 C in an oven, transfer to jars and boil, you would still be o.k. (Nevermind the non-sterilized transfer from the oven to jars, since this is exactly what is happening if you grind brown rice flour at home and then jar it to get steamed in a pot.)


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: Kizzle]
    #18773964 - 08/29/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

There is an alternative
Quote:

Kizzle said:
8 hours. Although that's not the amount time it takes to destroy all the endospores. It's just enough to make the grains usable




Whole grains require more time than PF style cakes mainly because of the lower heat penetration not because they have less endospores.


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Offlineemphatik
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: Kizzle]
    #18774280 - 08/29/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

kizz. where are you getting "8" hours from?


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: emphatik]
    #18774289 - 08/29/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If you do not have a pressure cooker, you can still sterilize the grains by steam sterilizing them for 8 hours.


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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: PussyFart]
    #18774930 - 08/29/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

0.5pt/90m = 1quart/8hours. This isn't exactly correct but good enough for practical purpose. As said earlier its penetration and temperature

Here are some examples from the search engine

(in regards to someone saying a PC is not necessary)
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11073008#11073008

You will be in the company of about half the noobs who have every joined here.  Proving a pressure cooker necessary while trying to do the opposite, seems to be a right of passage.

From an engineering/physics point of view, here's why your plan won't work.  As workman correctly said, the pressure raises the boiling point of water, so that the water in your grains remains in a liquid state in the pressure cooker, even though it's at 250F/121C.  Therefore, it's not the pressure that kills the bacterial endospores, it's the temperature.  The pressure simply allows the temperature to rise while preserving the moisture in the grains.

The oven is at normal atmospheric pressure, therefore if you raise the temperature above the boiling point of 100C, the water will turn to steam and escape, leaving your grains toasted.  There's also no way in hell the jar will exceed 212F/100C until all the water has boiled out of your pan, thus the grains will be ruined.
RR

Also about steam which even in the oven wont get above 212.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15933775#15933775

Anyone who says steam sterilization without pressure isn't enough is flat-out wrong.  It's the method we use on our mushroom farm for thousands of pounds of substrate per week with 100% success.  If someone is failing with steam sterilization, they're not doing it right.
RR

Steam will work with time or increased temperature caused by pressure. That's why it's said to keep jars out of the water and only let the steam touch them since it's what is carrying the energy. Obviously some water can touch the jars in a PC without ill effects during a 90m cycle but for steaming PF jars it's more of a concern. Hopefully all of this will shed more light onto your train of though, but heh, at least your asking questions which means some day you'll be growing a assload of shrooms if you want.


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Offlineemphatik
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Re: Work around a Pressure Cooker [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18776494 - 08/30/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

thanks for you helps guys. I lol'd when I read this:

"Proving a pressure cooker necessary while trying to do the opposite, seems to be a right of passage."

The issue is settled. and my mind can be at peace.....for now.


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