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SpitballJedi
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Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread
#18769708 - 08/28/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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First, I want to say that this thread is not intended to debunk The Bucket Tek. But, I would like to potentially dispel some of the rhetoric.
When I say "Bucket Tek", I'm reffering to what's commonly called "Damion5050's Coir Tek". From now on I will call it the bucket.
`If I think you are off topic, I will ask you to respect my thread or leave. `This is not a "How to". This is not about tips and tricks of various methods. Simply just bucket vs pasteurization.**Edit** What I mean is, if you don't understand how the bucket tek or pasteurization is done, then this thread may not be for you. `The only ingredients we are talking about are coir, vermiculite, gypsum and water.**Edit** This is because these are the primary ingredients in the bucket tek. From what I've read on these forums, most people except that manure and coffee and some other ingredients require pasteurization. `If you basically say what someone else already said, then you are not really contributing to the debate. `debating can be fun and educational. Please be honest in your arguments. If you talk shit, expect to be called out. And I don't always have my kid gloves on 
My intention is to potentially help those who are struggling like I was. And I don't want people to get all butt-hurt when I mention pasteurization. I know enough to know when it's appropriate to make the suggestion.
If your using the bucket and having contam issues, I would agree it is a high probability you are using contaminated spawn. "How the spawn gets contaminated" is a different thread.
But, if you feel good about your spawn prep, you can't see or smell anything wrong, you just have that good ol' shroomy smell, then it can be difficult to troubleshoot it. I know I felt lost because I couldn't tell if I was making a difference. My spawn kept coming out the same.
On the other hand, properly pasteurizing your substrate is very easy to accomplish. And because of the contam resistance, you have room for error.
If you are now using proper pasteurization and still have contam issues, then it becomes more obvious you have another problem. But, I would still properly pasteurize until I got the problem solved.
You can start looking at your spawn and spawn to sub mixing process and other things.
So, if you've never tried the bucket, by all means give it a shot. There is a good chance you will be successful. However, if you are having contam problems, consider my thoughts and keep this thread in mind.
About my experience and knowledge: I am by no means a master cultivator. For a long time, my grows were hit or miss. I had some crazy contraptions that are laughable in retrospect. These days, I only use rye berries for spawn, properly pasteurized coir, vermiculite, gypsum, and water for substrate, and monotubs for fruiting chambers.
I used the bucket for a long time. I made the switch about seven months ago. I resisted giving up the bucket. I loved the bucket and so desperately wanted it to work. I really did not want to have to load up jars and wait for my temperature to rise and wait on the timer and all that.
I decided to switch to proper pasteurization after several failed monotubs. My success rate with monotubs and the bucket started out low and never improved. Sometimes it was bacteria, but mostly it was trich. After switching, my success rate went way up.
This brings us to the debate. I can't give you a bunch of data to explain scientifically why I became more successful, I can only give my experience.
Right off the bat, I want to address some common arguments:
The problem is likely your spawn. This argument is why I resisted giving up the bucket tek. I read this over and over again. I tried many variations on my spawn prep without any change in success. Only proper pasteurization gave me a marked increase.
Contamination can be hidden and/or dormant in your spawn and then flourish once put in your sub. I agree with this 100%. It's a valid argument. The problem I have with it is that I could use clean agar and do multiple grain to grain transfers without the contam showing itself. But I would still get a contamed sub.
Coir, vermiculite, and gypsum are contam resistant. I agree. You'll get no argument from me. I already know this, but it does not explain my experience.
RR has left buckets of coir sitting wet in a bucket for a long time without seeing a contam. So, what. Was it used for substrate? Either way, I'm not sure how that explains my experience. Just another testimony of how contam resistant it is, which I'm already aware of.
I've been using the bucket tek for a long time with great success. I rarely get a contam before the second flush. Another testimonial. I don't doubt it and that is awesome. But, not everyone has the same results and that's a fact that can't be denied. Therefore, it's not a valid argument, it's merely an experience.
But, so many people use the bucket tek with great success. That is also true; I would be a fool to deny it. But, see the above argument.
Again, I am not trying to discredit the bucket tek and I do not aim to offend. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from starting out with it either.
I think I covered the bases for the arguments. I really don't see much of a debate happening. Thanks for reading and good luck to you.
**Edit 2013-08-29** Added some clarifying statements so maybe poeple don't get the wrong idea marked by **Edit**. I did not remoe content though
**Edit 2013-08-30** I moved the some paragraphs around to hopefully make the OP appear less combative. I did not remove or add content though.
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Edited by SpitballJedi (08/30/13 04:08 PM)
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TranscendingLife
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18769732 - 08/28/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I really don't see much of a debate happening.
Because you stated not to discuss what the plausible problems are. 
I've used the bucket tek for coir+verm+gypsum+water, as well as hard wood pellets. None have contaminated during colonization or even into a third flush.
Improper sterile procedures may have been your problem...
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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SpitballJedi
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Quote:
TranscendingLife said:
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I really don't see much of a debate happening.
Because you stated not to discuss what the plausible problems are. 
I've used the bucket tek for coir+verm+gypsum+water, as well as hard wood pellets. None have contaminated during colonization or even into a third flush.
Improper sterile procedures may have been your problem...
TL, I respect you and don't want to get in to a thing with you, but...
I re-read the post and can't find where i stated "not to discuss what the plausible problems are." I did go ahead and address the more common arguments I've encountered and the things that were said to me, including the ones you mentioned, but I didn't make them off limits. Not sure why that's a moment.
You are more than welcome to repeat those. I would prefer to hear some new ones though. The wood pellets are interesting, I didn't know you could do that. But that's a different subject.
I hope my intentions did not escape you.
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blojo02184
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18769884 - 08/28/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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So is this like a "bucket improvement ideas" discussion?
If so, would lining the bucket let you properly cool the sub?
I know 160 is pasteurization temps for heating... For 90 minutes. How fast and what temperature does it need to cool to, to be proper?
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
#18769900 - 08/28/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
blojo02184 said: So is this like a "bucket improvement ideas" discussion?
Not really. It's more about whether or not to use the bucket tek at all.
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blojo02184
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18769942 - 08/28/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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One would use the bucket tek, IF it would properly pasteurize. It can obviously keep heat and temps long enough. Our issue is cooling, and maybe mixing.
That's my 2 cents.
And it seems like this is more like your statements, and not open discussion.
Later guys
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Stromrider
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
#18769987 - 08/28/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Has anyone considered colonization and fruiting temperatures role in the bucket Tek? I have had nothing but success for about a dozen trays and 8 monotubs now. I colonize and fruit my tubs at about 68 degrees. Is it possible this could be a factor?
Edited by Stromrider (08/28/13 09:45 PM)
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
#18770764 - 08/28/13 09:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
blojo02184 said: One would use the bucket tek, IF it would properly pasteurize. It can obviously keep heat and temps long enough. Our issue is cooling, and maybe mixing.
That's my 2 cents.
And it seems like this is more like your statements, and not open discussion.
Later guys
It is an open discussion, I just don't want it to get real long because of things like sfd's vs felt or bags vs jars and that sort of stuff. You know how threads can get.
If it would properly pasteurize, then it is no longer the bucket tek I'm referring to.
I haven't ruled out cooling as being a problem with the bucket tek, food and beverage companies recognize that as an essential part of pasteurization.
If by "mixing" you mean mixing spawn in to the sub, then I agree, that could be a problem too. I don't think mixing is inherently bad, but being too rough could damage the grain and expose the uncolonized insides.
A lot of stuff I put in the OP is because I already know what a lot of people are going to say. I was just trying to eliminate the need to say it again. But I'm open minded, if there's something I'm missing.
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blojo02184
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18772018 - 08/29/13 07:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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When I said mixing, I meant in the aspect of mixing the coir/verm up.
One issue that has been recognized is the lack of mixing in the bucket during pasteurization.
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TranscendingLife
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
#18772721 - 08/29/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've recorded the temperature of dumping the boiling water into the bucket, which was around 195F When it hit the thermometer just inside the bucket.
A lot of users, to achieve proper temperatures for pasteurization, wrap the bucket in clean blankets or towels.
Personally, I have a corner in my kitchen where I tuck the bucket into between my fridge and rolls of paper towels.
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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Midnight Cyclone
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Another one of these...
Quote:
SBJ: If it would properly pasteurize, then it is no longer the bucket tek I'm referring to.
Define proper pasteurization.
Quote:
TL: A lot of users, to achieve proper temperatures for pasteurization, wrap the bucket in clean blankets or towels.
The first few times I used the bucket tek I used blankets to insulate. They worked very well, in fact the substrate was still too warm to work with (over 100) the next morning after a night of "cooling off."
The bucket tek never treated me badly... if you're using coir as your substrate and you're not using any poo or coffee grounds or things alike then the bucket tek should suffice.
The main problem/only problem I had with the bucket tek was proper moisture content.
Bucket tek works fine for coir. Use Frank's tek for "proper" pasteurization if you're using poo+.
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blojo02184
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Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: Another one of these...
Quote:
SBJ: If it would properly pasteurize, then it is no longer the bucket tek I'm referring to.
Define proper pasteurization.
Quote:
TL: A lot of users, to achieve proper temperatures for pasteurization, wrap the bucket in clean blankets or towels.
The first few times I used the bucket tek I used blankets to insulate. They worked very well, in fact the substrate was still too warm to work with (over 100) the next morning after a night of "cooling off."
The bucket tek never treated me badly... if you're using coir as your substrate and you're not using any poo or coffee grounds or things alike then the bucket tek should suffice.
The main problem/only problem I had with the bucket tek was proper moisture content.
Bucket tek works fine for coir. Use Frank's tek for "proper" pasteurization if you're using poo+.
Cooling also. Proper pasteurization requires cooling immediately after the heat treatment.
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SpitballJedi
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Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: Define proper pasteurization.
http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary Pasteurization - Heat treatment applied to a Substrate to destroy unwanted organisms but keeping a reduced concentration of favorable ones alive. The temperature range is 60?C to 80?C(140?F-175?F). The treatment is very different from sterilization, which aims at destroying all organisms in the substrate .
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: The bucket tek never treated me badly... if you're using coir as your substrate and you're not using any poo or coffee grounds or things alike then the bucket tek should suffice.
Bucket tek works fine for coir.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18769708#18769708
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: ...not everyone has the same results and that's a fact that can't be denied.
One of my hopes with this thread is to have my eyes opened to something I've missed. I would love to have the same experience as you.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18776638 - 08/30/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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All questions don't have to be addressed at me, feel free to jump in and reply to anyone's post. I certainly don't have all the answers.
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Midnight Cyclone
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18776679 - 08/30/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pasteurization - Heat treatment applied to a Substrate to destroy unwanted organisms but keeping a reduced concentration of favorable ones alive. The temperature range is 60?C to 80?C(140?F-175?F). The treatment is very different from sterilization, which aims at destroying all organisms in the substrate.
Okay, so assuming that you can keep the bucket+substrate between those certain temperatures for 60-90 mins then the bucket tek should provide proper pasteurization. Should it not?
Minus the cooling of the substrate, like blojo pointed out. But I would imagine a very minor tweak could make it so cooling the substrate is made simpler.
I think of the bucket tek as a simpler version of using one large spawn bag and pasteurizing that on the stove. It's all or nothing no matter what and cooling the substrate in a timely manner is difficult due to the sheer volume.
I don't use Damion5050's tek anymore due to moisture content problems alone. After switching to Frank's tek where I can be sure the water content is correct prior to pasteurization, the bucket tek just becomes inferior in my mind.
If it works for you, use it to your heart's desire. If not, then stop trying to fix it and move on. I guess that's good relationship advice, too.
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SpitballJedi
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Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: Okay, so assuming that you can keep the bucket+substrate between those certain temperatures for 60-90 mins then the bucket tek should provide proper pasteurization. Should it not?
If you are keeping pasteurization temps for the proper time, as defined above, and you are doing this in a bucket, then you are just doing pasteurization in a bucket and not the bucket tek.
However, that is not the bucket tek I'm referring to.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18769708#18769708
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: When I say "Bucket Tek", I'm referring to what's commonly called "Damion5050's Coir Tek". From now on I will call it the bucket.
The bucket tek is not pasteurization, but it does work well for many people.
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TranscendingLife
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18776789 - 08/30/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said:
The bucket tek is not proper pasteurization, but it does work well for many people.
Fixed that for ya.
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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SpitballJedi
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I'm sure you have had the debate with someone before. Could you post a link for me to read?
If not, please explain the correction. The reason I ask is because your correction implies the bucket tek is pasteurization, just not proper.
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Mush4Brains
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18777724 - 08/30/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't pour boiling water directly on the bucket, I boil, let it sit for about five minutes and pour. The outside of the sub when "properly pasteurizing" will usually get above 180* anyways, it is all about the internal temp that matters.
In my life, I've done probably 50 tubs and a 100+ trays. The only times I had big contamination issues was when I was lazy with my grain spawn at the beginning. I haven't grown in over a year because of my living situation, but I'll probably stick with it if I decide to go at it again.
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TranscendingLife
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Mush4Brains]
#18780920 - 08/31/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's pasteurization but not proper, because the internal temperature will go above 160F. However, this temp hurts nothing, as I've pasteurized at 180F before, without a problem. Also, the main reason we can get away with the bucket tek using coir+verm is because of how the ingredients are prepared. Coir bricks are super compressed shreds of coconut coir husks. If I remember correctly, they're pressed at around 20K PSI.
The only time I've ever gotten a contam on a coir+verm tub before the 3rd or 4th flush Was when I improperly mixed my spawn & substrate. Luckily I noticed the mold before it spored & tossed the tub.
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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blojo02184
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How do you properly mix spawn and sub? In a still air tent? Cuz it can't fit in the sab
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PussyFart
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
#18781749 - 08/31/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Open air....
Pasteurized bulk substrate material is contam resistant.
So are fully colonized grains/cakes.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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TranscendingLife
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
#18781828 - 08/31/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
blojo02184 said: How do you properly mix spawn and sub? In a still air tent? Cuz it can't fit in the sab
2.Sterile Procedure: a.Turn off Heat/AC, Shut all windows & turn off all Fans. b.Oust Room c.Shower, wash hands, glove hands & wear a surgical mask. d.Oust once more e.Clean the inside of the tubs (make sure it dries before proceeding) i.I normally Unscrew the lids on my Spawn jars @ this time.
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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blojo02184
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Thanks man
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blojo02184]
#18804899 - 09/05/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17462182#17462182
Quote:
Citric said:
Quote:
Cynosure said: I think most of my instances of Trichoderma in tubs came from contaminated spawn. It seems that mushroom's mycelial growth occurs alongside the trich's which sometimes makes it hard for me to spot in jars.
Contaminated spawn would lead to bacteria. Trich in your spawn would long show itself before the jar is 100% in most cases. Trich would be from your substrate not being properly pasteurized.
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18805648 - 09/05/13 10:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ever wonder why they sometimes add Trichoderma spores to coir?
It's because it's naturally sterile. There's virtually no bacteria or fungi on it to begin with.
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Mush4Brains
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle] 1
#18805660 - 09/05/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Trich helps several plant roots, I think.
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tbagtag
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Mush4Brains]
#18805730 - 09/05/13 11:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: Ever wonder why they sometimes add Trichoderma spores to coir?
It's because it's naturally sterile. There's virtually no bacteria or fungi on it to begin with.
and
Quote:
Mush4Brains said: Trich helps several plant roots, I think.
Are both trueish....
That is the intention, but I've used trich treated coir for seedlings and hydroponic grows before i got into mycology. The honest truth is - that it is more expensive by a few cents to a few dollars and generally the trich is dead by the time you get to use the brick. I stopped buying it a long time ago and stuck with inert substances for plants.
Off topic I know - but if you want good root growth germinate your seeds in damp towels or newspaper. You can weed(pun intended) out your shit starter roots and keep the best looking ones.
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Mush4Brains]
#18805749 - 09/05/13 11:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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But it isn't usually needed as an additive since practically all soil already has Trich in it.
The point is we pasteurize to kill molds while leaving some of the bacteria alive but if there's no native bacteria population then what exactly are we trying to leave alive? That's not to say there aren't other benefits to heat treating substrate
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tbagtag
Boomer Barron

Registered: 01/16/13
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18805792 - 09/05/13 11:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: But it isn't usually needed as an additive since practically all soil already has Trich in it.
The point is we pasteurize to kill molds while leaving some of the bacteria alive but if there's no native bacteria population then what exactly are we trying to leave alive? That's not to say there aren't other benefits to heat treating substrate
Well we can never be sure that the coir was not exposed to bacteria at some point. While its unlikely but so is finding dead bugs in bags of flour - anything can happen. I do it mostly for the mold issue, only had 1 tub go bacterial and that was my fault for dunking a mono for over 8 hours (got high forgot i dunked the fucker).
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maddchef
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
#18851491 - 09/16/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I still say the reason the bucket tek fails at times is because of the compression of the brick and uneven heating. I'm willing to bet if one were to hydrate it partially just to be able to expand it, then add the remaining water at 170 or so and seal it up for an hour, it would work just fine.
As far as cooling. After the 60-90 minutes, simply pour into your tub and toss a bit to throw off some heat.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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retaardvark
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18851757 - 09/16/13 10:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: But it isn't usually needed as an additive since practically all soil already has Trich in it.
The point is we pasteurize to kill molds while leaving some of the bacteria alive but if there's no native bacteria population then what exactly are we trying to leave alive? That's not to say there aren't other benefits to heat treating substrate
I read somewhere that the idea behind pasteurization is to allow thorough substrate colonization by moderately thermophilic organisms (those whose metabolisms are most active around 120~160°F). Surely there is quite a bit of environmental exposure to all sorts of organisms while hydrating and preparing a substrate for pasteurization, even if it was sterile when it was unwrapped.
I asked a few microbiologists and they said there was weight behind the idea, but could not confirm. Interested on experts' opinions!
Edited by retaardvark (09/16/13 10:56 PM)
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SoreSpore
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PussyFart]
#18851851 - 09/16/13 11:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said: Pasteurized bulk substrate material is contam resistant.
Set it out in the open and let me know how contaminant resistant coir/coffee or ccm/verm mix
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maddchef
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SoreSpore]
#18851896 - 09/16/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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If it weren't contam resistant, or at least slower to contam, why do all commercial farms pasteurize their compost and various subs. Sheesh
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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PussyFart
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SoreSpore]
#18851936 - 09/16/13 11:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SoreSpore said:
Quote:
Notahacker420 said: Pasteurized bulk substrate material is contam resistant.
Set it out in the open and let me know how contaminant resistant coir/coffee or ccm/verm mix 
No one is talking about adding coffee....but if properly pasteurized it should make little difference.
But still very contam resistant, considering if left out in the open it would most likely dry out before anything colonized it.
Plus people(including me) use coir all the time as reptile bedding....left in the tank for a month at a time with no mold growth.
Stop talking out of your ass, as you will get shut down quick round here'.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
Edited by PussyFart (09/16/13 11:42 PM)
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Mush4Brains
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PussyFart]
#18851955 - 09/16/13 11:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said: No one is talking about adding coffee....but if properly pasteurized it should make little difference.
But still very contam resistant, considering if left out in the open it would most likely dry out before anything colonized it.
Plus people(including me) use coir all the time as reptile bedding....left in the tank for a month at a time with no mold growth.
Stop talking out of your ass, as you will get shut down quick round here'.
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SoreSpore]
#18852005 - 09/17/13 12:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well we can never be sure that the coir was not exposed to bacteria at some point.
I'm sure it has but that wouldn't mean much when the bacteria is unable to reproduce on it. Sterilizing most bulk substrates lead to an increase in contamination, despite the fact that bacteria is undoubtedly going start landing on the sterilized substrate right after sterilization.
That's because bacteria can only help prevent mold after there is a sufficient number of them.
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FrankHorrigan
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18852011 - 09/17/13 12:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SoreSpore said:
Quote:
Notahacker420 said: Pasteurized bulk substrate material is contam resistant.
Set it out in the open and let me know how contaminant resistant coir/coffee or ccm/verm mix 
Yeah, it'll just dry out, more than likely.
Maybe you should take a break from the pub and come learn something from mush cult. 7000+ posts and you still don't know how pasteurization works 
Quote:
Well we can never be sure that the coir was not exposed to bacteria at some point.
Bacteria is not a contaminant of pasteurized bulk substrate.
If you have bacteria issues with properly pasteurized substrate, you can rest assured that it came from your spawn.
On bucket v proper p.
Bucket tek works a lot of the time. When it fails, it is out of your control (and nothing would have indicated that it failed until you saw the green).
It is not uncommon for people to blame the bucket tek when the culprit is their spawn.
Proper pasteurization eliminates one "what if" in the grand scheme of things, from spore to shroom. That's worth it to me.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18853651 - 09/17/13 01:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: It is not uncommon for people to blame the bucket tek when the culprit is their spawn.
Proper pasteurization eliminates one "what if" in the grand scheme of things, from spore to shroom. That's worth it to me.
Exactly.
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17462182#17462182
Quote:
Citric said:
Quote:
Cynosure said: I think most of my instances of Trichoderma in tubs came from contaminated spawn. It seems that mushroom's mycelial growth occurs alongside the trich's which sometimes makes it hard for me to spot in jars.
Contaminated spawn would lead to bacteria. Trich in your spawn would long show itself before the jar is 100% in most cases. Trich would be from your substrate not being properly pasteurized.
This post by Citric makes since to me.
How long can trich stay hidden in a spawn jar?
I know trich looks similar to cube myc until the trich turns green, but what about smell?
If it looks right and smells right, could it really have ninja trich? I mean really.
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PussyFart
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18853666 - 09/17/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I know trich looks similar to cube myc until the trich turns green, but what about smell?
The only think trich has in common with mushroom mycellium is the color white, but even the shade of white is different.
Trich is PURE white before it sporilates, the texture is different, it looks like mold, and it smells terrible.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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FrankHorrigan
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18853678 - 09/17/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Trichoderma does not hide well because it is extremely fast. Trich also has a very distinct "fresh" earthy or "minty" smell to it. It is hard to miss even in small amounts, that smell overpowers everything on your spawn. Trich does not, however, go green on grain spawn very often.
But I know for a fact that a whole shitload of members call any green mold "trich." This is a source of much confusion to people and a pet peeve of mine.
Green molds (non-trich) don't really have much smell, not the ones I've encountered. And some of these greens also grow at about the same rate as your mycelium. Combine that with a lack of distinguishing smell and white mycelium...then you've got an adept little ninja contam...but it won't be trich.
I've seen some of my cultures on agar where the mycelium is so enmeshed with mold that they grow in tandem. The green never shows up after being spawned to bulk...until 2-3 days after the first flush. I am working with many types of agar to try to figure a way to clean this but have no real luck so far.
It was RR actually who pointed out that I have mold piggybacking those cultures.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/17/13 02:27 PM)
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18853745 - 09/17/13 02:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: But I know for a fact that a whole shitload of members call any green mold "trich." This is a source of much confusion to people and a pet peeve of mine.
Green molds (non-trich) don't really have much smell, not the ones I've encountered. And some of these greens also grow at about the same rate as your mycelium. Combine that with a lack of distinguishing smell and white mycelium...then you've got an adept little ninja contam...but it won't be trich.
Anyone having trouble with contaminated tubs should really pay attention to this.
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18854620 - 09/17/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If it looks right and smells right, could it really have ninja trich? I mean really.
Yup. The idea that a mold contaminated jar will always show obvious by the time it's fully colonized is a misconception that's caused people a lot of confusion in figuring out the source of their problem.
There are a lot of different mold with different attributes. Just because some start sporulating soon after inoculation doesn't mean they all do. I know at least some Trichoderma species will not start sporulating until after they have colonized all the available substrate. It's kind of like how we can g2g jars many times yet not find mushrooms growing in the any of the spawn jars during the process. It would erroneous to think "well surely if there was mushroom mycelium in these jars I would have seen some mushrooms by now."
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Edited by Kizzle (09/17/13 05:49 PM)
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18854681 - 09/17/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Trichoderma does not hide well because it is extremely fast. Trich also has a very distinct "fresh" earthy or "minty" smell to it. It is hard to miss even in small amounts, that smell overpowers everything on your spawn. Trich does not, however, go green on grain spawn very often.
But I know for a fact that a whole shitload of members call any green mold "trich." This is a source of much confusion to people and a pet peeve of mine.
Green molds (non-trich) don't really have much smell, not the ones I've encountered. And some of these greens also grow at about the same rate as your mycelium. Combine that with a lack of distinguishing smell and white mycelium...then you've got an adept little ninja contam...but it won't be trich.
I've seen some of my cultures on agar where the mycelium is so enmeshed with mold that they grow in tandem. The green never shows up after being spawned to bulk...until 2-3 days after the first flush. I am working with many types of agar to try to figure a way to clean this but have no real luck so far.
It was RR actually who pointed out that I have mold piggybacking those cultures.
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18856425 - 09/18/13 12:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It wouldn't surprise me if most of the people dealing with Trich problems were actually dealing with another green mold. But I've also used apparently healthy jars with no noticeable odor only to have the unmistakable Trich odor by the end of the spawn run, with the actual appearance of the mold occurring during the first flush. I can only speculate as to why but since the only 3 trays that contaminated used spawn g2g-ed from the same master jar I assume it had to do with the g2g and that the odor may not be always be present, at least in some stages of growth or under certain conditions.
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FrankHorrigan
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18856443 - 09/18/13 12:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you have an unmistakeable trich odor at the end of the spawn run, I would assume a poorly pasteurized substrate is the culprit. You would see/smell that on your grains, even with minimal experience.
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SoreSpore
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18856450 - 09/18/13 12:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Did the grain smell sour? How did you prepare your substrate?
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SoreSpore]
#18856686 - 09/18/13 03:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It was coir/verm partially sterilized with boiling water similar to the bucket tek. It's not that I haven't considered that as the possible cause but I've been using that method for some time. I rarely do g2gs between spawn jars. It seems too much to be a coincidence that it happened to coincide with the g2g.
The grain jars had no odor of any kind. In retrospect I suppose it's possible they did have an odor and I just didn't notice it at the time since I never seem to smell the mushroomy smell people are always mentioning either.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18861865 - 09/19/13 07:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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My interpretation of this thread so far:
Trich in your tub is likely caused by improper pasteurization. If your grain spawn has trich, it would likely show itself prior to spawning.
Green molds are often misidentified as trich. These green molds can live with your mycelium in the grains and go unnoticed.
The best way to troubleshoot is to properly identify the contamination in your tub and to properly pasteurize.
If you properly pasteurize and still have contamination, the spawn is the culprit.
If you have contamination and you use the bucket tek, then all bets are off.
Is that a decent summery? I'm not sure how important it is to properly identify the contam. regardless if it's trich or not, I think the rest of the summery still apples
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maddchef
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18861935 - 09/19/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I still say the bucket tek can be fixed at least when using 2 bricks of coir by simply hydrating in 2 parts. Add a gallon, let sit for 20 or 30 mins or so, stir and add remaining water.
This serves several purposes: to prehydrate thereby providing better heat distribution (no more dry compressed spots), and also adding water in 2 parts help to maintain proper temperatures for a longer time.
I'm not a bucket tek fan but I'd love to see someone give it a go and report back.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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j3rk0ff
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i can never find oust or glad w/oust
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bulkgrownoob
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: j3rk0ff]
#18862331 - 09/19/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
j3rk0ff said: i can never find oust or glad w/oust
Same here. I usually find it at target if you have any in your area
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bulkgrownoob]
#18862484 - 09/19/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
j3rk0ff said: i can never find oust or glad w/oust
Quote:
bulkgrownoob said:
Quote:
j3rk0ff said: i can never find oust or glad w/oust
Same here. I usually find it at target if you have any in your area
sorry, but this is getting off topic.
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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/19/13 11:09 AM)
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: maddchef]
#18862485 - 09/19/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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try it several times and post your results
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PrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18862554 - 09/19/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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 I prefer a proper pasteurization
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18868345 - 09/20/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: My interpretation of this thread so far:
Trich in your tub is likely caused by improper pasteurization. If your grain spawn has trich, it would likely show itself prior to spawning.
Green molds are often misidentified as trich. These green molds can live with your mycelium in the grains and go unnoticed.
The best way to troubleshoot is to properly identify the contamination in your tub and to properly pasteurize.
If you properly pasteurize and still have contamination, the spawn is the culprit.
If you have contamination and you use the bucket tek, then all bets are off.
Is that a decent summery? I'm not sure how important it is to properly identify the contam. regardless if it's trich or not, I think the rest of the summery still apples
I would agree except strictly when using coir/verm, and not knowing the nature other peoples problems with that method I can only limit this to IME, sterilizing does not seem to make it more vulnerable to mold. Any other substrate like manure, not using proper pasteurization would definitely be first my suspicion as the cause of mold. And not just Trich any mold. It does seem odd though the people who fail with the bucket tek always get, at least what they identify, as Trich.
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HypnotoadCroaked
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Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: Okay, so assuming that you can keep the bucket+substrate between those certain temperatures for 60-90 mins then the bucket tek should provide proper pasteurization. Should it not?
I am quoting you for no reason other than what you are saying is the basis of the discussion in my mind. My opinion is that since there is not a lot of data about the temps of bucket, spawn etc. If it works for you, you have a method. I tried a few times at different water temps, and almost always had fails. I do pasteurize proper and have had issues down to zero.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18868457 - 09/20/13 04:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, coir, gypsum, vermiculite. That is the focus here as mentioned in my OP. It's a good reminder though.
I don't want to get off topic here, but I would like to mention briefly that my summery should apply to just about any substrate media.
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SpitballJedi
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If you are keeping appropriate temperatures for the appropriate time, then you are no longer talking about the bucket tek as referenced in my OP. You are talking about proper pasteurization in a bucket.
The heart of this discussion is not about how to fix the bucket tek, but whether or not it's the source of some peoples' contamination woes and whether or not some should stop using it.
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PrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18868496 - 09/20/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: It does seem odd though the people who fail with the bucket tek always get, at least what they identify, as Trich.
I was thinking the same thing. IME it was always trich with bucket tek. I def know the difference between trich and the many many other contams I have encountered. Some of them I am at a loss as to what they are but many times I am pretty confident I know what sort of contam I am dealing with. TMC and MMGG sit on a stack of FC's in my room.
It is wierd now that I am thinking about is that every fail as per bucket tek is trich. Trich is supposedly not suppose to germinate on coir its when we add the grain that the trich has a chance to take hold. IME which I recently took 2 cups of straight coir and let it sit out in my room that I encounter contams in. After sitting out for 2 weeks I loaded the wet coir into a bag and its been in there for 6 months I just checked it, with out a single contam.
Ive been growing solid for 6 years now. I did my first PF tek over 20 years ago. Ive grown a shroom or two in my experience. Mycology has become a passion in my life and I grow hard. For along time I used the bucket tek. I know damion quite well actually. You couldnt pay me to use it ever again. Ive heard about this ninja contam theory I wondered myself. I make clean syringes clean plates clean spawn. There is zero chance I got some magic ninja contam hiding in my spawn ive checked it many times. Thrown grain to agar spawned properly pasteurized tubs. No contams present. The same jars bucket tek. Trich. It is trich I know the whiteness of trich even if I am colour blind.
Lots of ppl have great success with bucket. I have in the past, yet I would not forgo proper pasteurization at anytime from my experience. I havent used a bucket in over a year and I am glad.
I am a super cheap bastard every time I see a project fail it really pisses me and my pocket book off. Take the time to properly pasteurize its really not that much harder than a bucket. Not only is your success rate going to go up you also have the option to add other things beside coir and verm.
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tbagtag
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Quote:
Whippy said:
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: Okay, so assuming that you can keep the bucket+substrate between those certain temperatures for 60-90 mins then the bucket tek should provide proper pasteurization. Should it not?
I am quoting you for no reason other than what you are saying is the basis of the discussion in my mind. My opinion is that since there is not a lot of data about the temps of bucket, spawn etc. If it works for you, you have a method. I tried a few times at different water temps, and almost always had fails. I do pasteurize proper and have had issues down to zero.
Here is a write up I did on the bucket tek vs pasteurization.
Quote:
tbagtag said: What is the difference between bucket tek and proper pasteurization?
A lot
Some will claim that it accomplishes the same goal, but it doesn't. The reason it works for coir is because coir is naturally contam resistant. You could potentially spawn to non-pasteurized coir and still obtain results. If bucket tek worked properly it would work for other substrates such as poo and straw.
Pasteurization, not just what we refer to as proper pasteurization, requires 2 things - a temperature between 160-170 degrees being held for 1 hour followed by a rapid cool down. This is why we when we pasteurize we remove our substrate from the bath we submerge it in.
With bucket tek there is no guarantee that the substrate will reach the proper temperature, let alone hold it for an hour. You cannot check as this will release heat and expose your substrate to unwanted visitors.
Now in the event that the temperature of the substrate could even reach and hold the temperature you cannot provide a rapid cool down.
How do I know this? Physics and math! Plastic buckets from a hardware store do not and cannot break the laws of thermodynamics and Newton's law of cooling.
Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are both in thermal equilibrium with a third system then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. This law helps define the notion of temperature.
In physics, the phrase thermal equilibrium is used sometimes in the common parlance of the ordinary language of physical discourse, and sometimes as a specialized technical term in thermodynamics. As common parlance, the phrase refers to steady states of temperature, which may be spatial or temporal. The meaning varies from occasion to occasion, as with all ordinary language usages. Thermal equilibrium as a technical term in thermodynamics can also be used in two senses. One sense is that of thermal equilibrium within a system for itself. The other sense is that of a relation between the respective physical states of two bodies. Thermal equilibrium in a system for itself means that the temperature within the system is spatially and temporally uniform. Thermal equilibrium as a relation between the physical states of two bodies means that there is actual or implied thermal connection between them, through a path that is permeable only to heat, and that no
The relation of thermal equilibrium is an instance of a contact equilibrium between two bodies. This means that it refers to transfer through a selectively permeable partition, the contact path. For the relation of thermal equilibrium, the contact path is permeable only to heat; it does not permit the passage of matter or work. According to Lieb and Yngvason, the essential meaning of the relation of thermal equilibrium includes that it is reflexive and symmetric. It is not included in the essential meaning whether it is or is not transitive. After discussing the semantics of the definition, they postulate a substantial physical axiom, that they call the "zeroth law of thermodynamics", that thermal equilibrium is a transitive relation. They comment that the equivalence classes of systems so established are called isotherms.
Newton's Model of Cooling says that the rate at which an object loses or gains heat is proportional to the difference between its temperature and the ambient temperature
So, if an object gains heat at the same rate that the heat is dispersed we would need to work the equation to determine the exact temperature of the water and at what intervals the water cools. The rate the water cools is the rate the coir raises - at some point it will meet at an equal temperature. seems like a lot of work for something we can do much easier and do it right. Doing pasteurization is much easier and will give you the ability to move onto additional species. Bucket tek is not pasteurization and will not give you these skills.
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PrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
#18868518 - 09/20/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You state pasteurization temps as 160-170 for an hour. Im pretty sure its 140-160 for an hour.
Besides that your write up is very good
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tbagtag
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18868552 - 09/20/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PrinceShroom said: You state pasteurization temps as 160-170 for an hour. Im pretty sure its 140-160 for an hour.
Besides that your write up is very good
That was based primarily on coir. Speaking out my ass right now, but I think sterilization temp for coir is 180. And if I understand correctly poo is around 140 to 150. I could be wrong though.
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PrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
#18868562 - 09/20/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
tbagtag said:
Quote:
PrinceShroom said: You state pasteurization temps as 160-170 for an hour. Im pretty sure its 140-160 for an hour.
Besides that your write up is very good
That was based primarily on coir. Speaking out my ass right now, but I think sterilization temp for coir is 180. And if I understand correctly poo is around 140 to 150. I could be wrong though.
No pasturization happens when you hold something at 140-160 for an hour no matter what the substrate.
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Stromrider
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18868579 - 09/20/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah I wouldn't think the composition of the substrate would matter. Wouldn't it be the contams were wanting to ward off (or keep) that would decide what the temperture needs to be
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tbagtag
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18868596 - 09/20/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PrinceShroom said:
Quote:
tbagtag said:
Quote:
PrinceShroom said: You state pasteurization temps as 160-170 for an hour. Im pretty sure its 140-160 for an hour.
Besides that your write up is very good
That was based primarily on coir. Speaking out my ass right now, but I think sterilization temp for coir is 180. And if I understand correctly poo is around 140 to 150. I could be wrong though.
No pasturization happens when you hold something at 140-160 for an hour no matter what the substrate.
Well this is pertinent to milk but method and time determines the temps for milk. It also talks about how sugar and other compositions change the time and temp required. Couldn't the same be true for substrates?
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pasteurization-methods-temperatures-d_1642.html
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Stromrider
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
#18868604 - 09/20/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't see why not. Different substrates harbor different possible contams correct?
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PrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
#18868636 - 09/20/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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140-160F for an hour for substrates. As per and stamets Thats more than enough for me.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Stromrider]
#18868658 - 09/20/13 04:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Pasteurization was developed to kill pathogens harmful to humans.
The point of pasteurization seems to be to kill unwanted pathogens while leaving others.
So, i would guess that depending on what you are trying to kill and keep would make a difference in temperature and time needs.
If true, then pasteurization parameters would be different for coir and milk.
It seems to me, based on my experience and much reading, 140-160 for 60 minutes is proper pasteurization for mushroom substrates.
Do we really need to keep saying "proper"? Isn't "improper pasteurization" kind of an oxymoron? It's either pasteurized or it's not, right?
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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/20/13 05:00 PM)
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Stromrider
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18868688 - 09/20/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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yeah I agree spit. Let's all either start saying "Pasteurization" or "bucket tek" since that is pretty much the only 2 different methods used to prepare substrates. Sure there are several different ways to "properly pasteurize" your substrate but i see no need to keep saying "proper".
It is either pasteurization or bucket tek from now on! Got it guys
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18868748 - 09/20/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place and thats what pasteurization supposed to be about... killing molds while preserving bacteria. Compare that to sterilization which is killing everything. Due to the nature of coir there should be no significant amount of bacteria on it that could survive pasteurization nor a significant amount of mold spores that need to be killed.
The only thing I can think of is with the different brands being manufactured, maybe some are being contaminated with other materials. I've heard people mention finding seeds in their coir which I never have. As of yet no one has come up with a particular brand that seems to fail with the bucket tek but maybe there is one.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18868833 - 09/20/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place and thats what pasteurization supposed to be about... killing molds while preserving bacteria. Compare that to sterilization which is killing everything. Due to the nature of coir there should be no significant amount of bacteria on it that could survive pasteurization nor a significant amount of mold spores that need to be killed.
The only thing I can think of is with the different brands being manufactured, maybe some are being contaminated with other materials. I've heard people mention finding seeds in their coir which I never have. As of yet no one has come up with a particular brand that seems to fail with the bucket tek but maybe there is one.
I came across information online that suggested the mechanism of pasteurization is allowing thermophilic organisms to gain significant foothold on substrate nutrient. I asked a few people steeped in microbiology and they said it seemed plausible.
When you're hydrating your substrate, it doesn't matter if it came sterile in the package, it now has many millions of organisms throughout it just by nature of working in open air, with tap water, etc.
I asked about this a week ago for review and nobody commented.
Edited by retaardvark (09/20/13 05:50 PM)
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: retaardvark]
#18868884 - 09/20/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place...
I'm no biologist, so it can be difficult for me to prove or argue this matter. I don't even know what the "good bacteria" is.
But I find it very difficult to believe coir produced on another continent on the other side of the world can make it all the way to my house without picking up many molds and bacteria/endospores. 
I still think, part of the problem with bucket tek is in the mixing of the spawn and substrate.
Granted, coir/verm/gyp is contam resistant, but there are going to be unwanted pathogens left when using this tek. When it's just sitting without grains, then it has little or no opportunity to show itself.
I think, if we mix too rough, we break the outer colonized layer of grains and expose the inner uncolonized part.
When this happens, we have introduced a food source to the unwanted pathogens.
Quote:
retaardvark said: ... the mechanism of pasteurization is allowing thermophilic organisms to gain significant foothold on substrate nutrient.
If this is true, then i don't see why it should not apply to coir/verm/gypsum.
And if it does apply, it may help to explain why pasteurization of coir/verm/gyp can still work even if some of the grains get broken while mixing.
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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/20/13 06:05 PM)
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PrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: retaardvark]
#18868890 - 09/20/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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For me its enough that to pasteurize a mushroom substrate I hold it between 140-160F for an hour. Enough said. When I become a milk farmer or another occupation that requires me to pasteurize something Ill re look at my pasteurization technique. We are growing mushrooms here isnt it enough to know 140-160 for an hour?
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18868911 - 09/20/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PrinceShroom said: For me its enough that to pasteurize a mushroom substrate I hold it between 140-160F for an hour. Enough said. When I become a milk farmer or another occupation that requires me to pasteurize something Ill re look at my pasteurization technique. We are growing mushrooms here isnt it enough to know 140-160 for an hour?
I dont think anyone is disputing this fact with you . But if you look at Frank's write up on pasteurization he even mentions 2 separate temperatures. 1 for poo, 1 for coir. We could always research the possible molds and bacteria's that could grow on both.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18868930 - 09/20/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Given the point of this thread, I would like to restrict posts of that research to coir, vermiculite, gypsum, and water. Thank you.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18868940 - 09/20/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I thought it had been settled already and we moved on. I don't think anyone is arguing about that
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: retaardvark]
#18869464 - 09/20/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
retaardvark said:
Quote:
Kizzle said: To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place and thats what pasteurization supposed to be about... killing molds while preserving bacteria. Compare that to sterilization which is killing everything. Due to the nature of coir there should be no significant amount of bacteria on it that could survive pasteurization nor a significant amount of mold spores that need to be killed.
The only thing I can think of is with the different brands being manufactured, maybe some are being contaminated with other materials. I've heard people mention finding seeds in their coir which I never have. As of yet no one has come up with a particular brand that seems to fail with the bucket tek but maybe there is one.
I came across information online that suggested the mechanism of pasteurization is allowing thermophilic organisms to gain significant foothold on substrate nutrient. I asked a few people steeped in microbiology and they said it seemed plausible.
When you're hydrating your substrate, it doesn't matter if it came sterile in the package, it now has many millions of organisms throughout it just by nature of working in open air, with tap water, etc.
I asked about this a week ago for review and nobody commented. 
You're missing an important aspect. The bacteria we try to keep alive by pasteurizing has already colonized the substrate, that what gives it the upper hand. Any time you move bacteria to a new substrate there is a lag time as it adapts to grow there. So even if you were to add the same species and amount of bacteria to sterile substrate as what would have been present had it been pasteurized instead of sterilized it would still not be the equivalent of pasteurization.
As I mentioned earlier for bacteria to antagonize mold it needs to be present in sufficient amount. That amount will not be achieved simply from relatively small amounts of airborne bacteria landing on it nor will it be uniform throughout the substrate. The bacteria needs to have already been established there in significant numbers throughout the substrate and they need to have already adapted themselves to grow there. When that happens mold is going to have a harder time acquiring the nutrients it needs for the spores to germinate and grow.
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TheApprentice
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18869812 - 09/20/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PrinceShroom said:
 I prefer a proper pasteurization
I always bring my substrate to field capacity and then pasteurize it.
If you use the bucket tek, buy a meat thermometer and check the temp to make sure it is actually being pasteurized.
I'm not sure the bucket tek was invented to replace pasteurization, rather just another way to do it. The problem people run in to with the bucket tek is that their boiling water cools off under the pasteurization temp, allowing trich or other molds to take hold of the substrate.
No, the intention of the bucket tek was to use the bucket as a pasteurization vessel. Not in place of pasteurization.
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maddchef
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: TheApprentice]
#18869982 - 09/20/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Here's the skinny. I stuck a meat thermometer through the side of a bucket, siliconed it, put a brick in and poured roughly a gallon of 180 degree water in.
An hour later without opening the lid, the temp was 164.
As this can create dry spots or spots that don't get expanded (and I think this is more to blame than partial sterilization), we have to open and stir like 30 mins in per the tek. The same bucket, brick, gallon of water: 180 going in, 30 mins later the temp is 169, open it to stir, close back and come back 30 mins later to a temp of 133.
Under our goal.
I solved this (may not be applicable to small scale) issue by doing the following.
2 bricks in a single bucket. Poured 5 quarts 175 degree water in, quickly stirred and sealed. 25 minutes or so later came back to a temp of 167. Open and poured 3 remaining quarts of water at 165-170 into the hydrated and already pretty much fully expanded coir.
I let this mix sit for another 45 mins. At the end of this trial the temp held more steady at 160 when we were all done. Adjust your starting temperatures accordingly. Wet coir (partially hydrated) holds heat way better than just dumping your whole load in at once onto dry bricks.
Don't say I never contributed anything fukkers lol. Try it and lemme know how your trial goes.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: maddchef]
#18869998 - 09/20/13 10:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
maddchef said:
2 bricks in a single bucket. Poured 5 quarts 175 degree water in, quickly stirred and sealed. 25 minutes or so later came back to a temp of 167. Open and poured 3 remaining quarts of water at 165-170 into the hydrated and already pretty much fully expanded coir.
Is this with verm or without?
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18870014 - 09/20/13 10:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I didn't use verm with this, no. And my water content was a bit off so it woulda been helpful. But it shouldn't make a difference except with water quantities.
The verm when wet will hold heat better as well.
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bulkgrownoob
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18871591 - 09/21/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
retaardvark said:
Quote:
Kizzle said: To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place and thats what pasteurization supposed to be about... killing molds while preserving bacteria. Compare that to sterilization which is killing everything. Due to the nature of coir there should be no significant amount of bacteria on it that could survive pasteurization nor a significant amount of mold spores that need to be killed.
The only thing I can think of is with the different brands being manufactured, maybe some are being contaminated with other materials. I've heard people mention finding seeds in their coir which I never have. As of yet no one has come up with a particular brand that seems to fail with the bucket tek but maybe there is one.
I came across information online that suggested the mechanism of pasteurization is allowing thermophilic organisms to gain significant foothold on substrate nutrient. I asked a few people steeped in microbiology and they said it seemed plausible.
When you're hydrating your substrate, it doesn't matter if it came sterile in the package, it now has many millions of organisms throughout it just by nature of working in open air, with tap water, etc.
I asked about this a week ago for review and nobody commented. 
You're missing an important aspect. The bacteria we try to keep alive by pasteurizing has already colonized the substrate, that what gives it the upper hand. Any time you move bacteria to a new substrate there is a lag time as it adapts to grow there. So even if you were to add the same species and amount of bacteria to sterile substrate as what would have been present had it been pasteurized instead of sterilized it would still not be the equivalent of pasteurization.
As I mentioned earlier for bacteria to antagonize mold it needs to be present in sufficient amount. That amount will not be achieved simply from relatively small amounts of airborne bacteria landing on it nor will it be uniform throughout the substrate. The bacteria needs to have already been established there in significant numbers throughout the substrate and they need to have already adapted themselves to grow there. When that happens mold is going to have a harder time acquiring the nutrients it needs for the spores to germinate and grow.
Would hydrating coir to field capacity and leaving it in a bucket for a week before pasteurizing give the bacteria enough time?
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bulkgrownoob]
#18872531 - 09/21/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't know what the actual lag time would be. On highly nutritious substrate it could be as little as a few hours otherwise it could be much longer assuming the nutrients are available for the bacteria to reproduce at all.
Something that occurred to me, I wonder if coco peat (partially degraded fibers) might sometimes be labeled as coco coir.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18873141 - 09/21/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said:
Quote:
Kizzle said: To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place...
But I find it very difficult to believe coir produced on another continent on the other side of the world can make it all the way to my house without picking up many molds and bacteria/endospores. 
Quote:
Kizzle said: You're missing an important aspect. The bacteria we try to keep alive by pasteurizing has already colonized the substrate, that what gives it the upper hand. Any time you move bacteria to a new substrate there is a lag time as it adapts to grow there. So even if you were to add the same species and amount of bacteria to sterile substrate as what would have been present had it been pasteurized instead of sterilized it would still not be the equivalent of pasteurization.
As I mentioned earlier for bacteria to antagonize mold it needs to be present in sufficient amount. That amount will not be achieved simply from relatively small amounts of airborne bacteria landing on it nor will it be uniform throughout the substrate. The bacteria needs to have already been established there in significant numbers throughout the substrate and they need to have already adapted themselves to grow there. When that happens mold is going to have a harder time acquiring the nutrients it needs for the spores to germinate and grow.
It seems like you have at least some basic understanding of the microbiology going on, but I think the foundation your argument is built on is shaky.
I can agree that desired pathogens needs to be present in sufficient amount to ward off unwanted pathogens, but it's relative.
If you just add room temperature water, then a small amount of a particular pathogen may not be able to compete. If you look back in to some older threads, you will find people doing this without much success.
But if you pasteurize, then, what was once a small amount of thermophilic organisms, now has open reign to colonize.
If you sterilize, then like you said, you basically kill everything. From what I've read, more people have had success with sterilizing coir than just adding room temperature water.
If your substrate has spots that don't get up to pasteurization temperature for the right time, then the unwanted pathogens are not killed off.
I think you under estimate the amount of pathogens that are in our atmosphere.
The comparison between room temperature water and sterilizing success rates indicate there are pathogens in the recipe.
Then you add tap water, vermiculite, and gypsum and then you have many pathogens. Coir/verm/gyp/water is considered contam resistant, many say it's very contam resistant. But nobody says it's contam proof. Fact is, many molds, fungus, and bacteria will colonize it.
Being as it's a fact that it's not contam proof, then by definition some times it contams.
But none of this explains why some people can have better success with the bucket tek than others. It would seem everyone should have the same success rate, but it's just not true.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18874497 - 09/22/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not aware of anyone even attempting to use coir on a significant basis without any kind of heat treatment for growing mushrooms to use for comparison. In it's other uses though, reptile bedding, hydroponics, piping insulation, rope, it's certainly shown itself to be highly resistant for long periods of time when wet.
Considering the difficulty in digesting lignin it seems likely any bacteria or fungi inhabiting the coir are going to require other food sources. So to put it in perspective...
For pasteurization to reduce contamination over sterilization bacteria are required to inhabit the substrate.
For bacteria and/or fungi to be capable of inhabiting the substrate they would most likely require additional food sources, not just coir fiber.
Whether or not other food sources are present could vary depending on the purity of the product leading to some product supporting more microbial activity, hence suffering from a lack of proper pasteurization.
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Midnight Cyclone
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18875029 - 09/22/13 08:16 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheApprentice said:
Quote:
PrinceShroom said:
 I prefer a proper pasteurization
I always bring my substrate to field capacity and then pasteurize it.
If you use the bucket tek, buy a meat thermometer and check the temp to make sure it is actually being pasteurized.
I'm not sure the bucket tek was invented to replace pasteurization, rather just another way to do it. The problem people run in to with the bucket tek is that their boiling water cools off under the pasteurization temp, allowing trich or other molds to take hold of the substrate.
No, the intention of the bucket tek was to use the bucket as a pasteurization vessel. Not in place of pasteurization.
I've been waiting for someone to point this out. The Damion5050, "bucket tek" as you refer to it, is titled "My Elementary Coir Tek." The bucket tek is used for COIR, which is highly contamination resistant. Nowhere in his thread does he mention that this is a substitute for "proper pasteurization" of other possible substrate compositions such as using poo or straw. It's for coir.
I've sterilized and pasteurized coir to see if I could get anything noticeable but saw little to no difference in the substrate's ability to produce mushrooms. On that note, THIS is why the bucket tek works for coir. Even a coir substrate which has been improperly pasteurized (partial sterilization) will/should work out the same because of how cotamination resistant coir is.
TL (a Trusted Cultivator) had something to say regarding this argument in another thread I found:
Quote:
TranscendingLife said: I use the bucket tek 99% of the time without a contam. The only one I've gotten was due to improperly mixing the spawn with the substrate, which caused it to take way too long to colonize.
As far as cleaning the room I would: Take everything out & clean it well. While that's all drying, Vacuum the room well, then Oust it immediately after. Wipe down all the walls & surfaces with bleach+water solution then a vinegar solution. Oust the room again & then put everything back in the room that is needed. Be sure to have the AC or heat off during the entire process.
There's mold spores all over your house, clothing, outside, etc. The reason most don't get contams is because of proper sterile procedures prior to doing mycology work.
I'm extremely paranoid concerning contams and sterile procedures. Here's what I do for spawning to bulk:
Spawning to Bulk:
1.Break up Your Spawn Jars by Banging them on a Stack of Phone Books or a Bike tire like RR uses. 2.Sterile Procedure: a.Turn off Heat/AC, Shut all windows & turn off all Fans. b.Oust Room c.Shower, wash hands, glove hands & wear a surgical mask. d.Oust once more e.Clean the inside of the tubs (make sure it dries before proceeding) i.I normally Unscrew the lids on my Spawn jars @ this time.
Here's what I do for everything else:
1. Turn off the Air/Heat in your Place. 2. Enter Clean room & break up spawn jar on a stack of phonebooks or bike tire. 3. Oust Entire Room Well. 4. Take a shower, brush teeth & use mouthwash. 5. Put on freshly laundered clothing, glove hands & put on surgical mask. 6. Enter Clean Room with the Receiving Jars - Get everything organized 7. Oust Room Well, again. - While that settles I spray down my paper towels with isopropyl alcohol 8. Open SAB & clean it. Be sure to wipe down the lid last. - You can use a bucket of warm water with dishsoap, bleach water mixture or isopropyl alcohol. - Personally, I use my bleach water. - Once I get the interior of my SAB wet, I line the bottom w/ paper towels & spray them down with my bleach water mixture. - You want to be sure to have the bottom of your SAB wet that way if a contam falls it'll be stuck to the bottom of the SAB. 9. Wipe Down the Interior of your SAB then your Lid to your SAB. 10. Now I place my lid on my SAB leaving about 1/2 of the SAB open. 11. Wipe down your Receiving jars w/ your iso soaked paper towels extremely well.
The bucket tek never let me down, contamination-wise. The only problem I ever had, which I've mentioned before, was the ability to get good water content. People have been trying to "fix" the bucket tek for a while now. It's not meant to be fixed. The bucket tek is for coir.
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: If you are keeping appropriate temperatures for the appropriate time, then you are no longer talking about the bucket tek as referenced in my OP. You are talking about proper pasteurization in a bucket.
The heart of this discussion is not about how to fix the bucket tek, but whether or not it's the source of some peoples' contamination woes and whether or not some should stop using it.
Are you trying to discredit Damion or something? I just don't see where this is going.
People, if you are going to use coir then try the bucket tek before you go through the trouble to properly pasteurize. The bucket tek is terribly easy compared to loading jars and worry about maintaining temperatures for the full amount of time just to prep coir. If you find the bucket tek fails you, then don't use it. It's a better feeling knowing you've properly pasteurized anyways, and in the end cutting corners will cut yields.
If you're planning to use poo or pretty much anything other than coir/verm, please just properly pasteurize in jars or bags and avoid trying to pass blame on a technique that was meant to prep a coir substrate.
I could find countless threads where the bucket tek has worked. Not to mention the grow log in my sig in which I used Damion's coir tek. And from that last link, ------------------------------------------^^^
Quote:
LayinUp said: I prepare my coir using Damion5050's coir tek. I prefer to use horse manure as well as spent coffee grounds in my grows, but 3+ hours spent properly pasteurizing such a sub is so much more tedious than simply pouring boiling water into a 5 gallon bucket. I've had great success with the simpler coir sub in the past, and never any contamination.
I don't know how much more this needs to be discussed. If Damion5050's coir tek works for you, keep on keepin' on. If it doesn't, then continue to pasteurize your substrate in jars/bags. You can sleep well knowing it's 100% right and there's no guesswork (like in my case, when it comes to having a properly hydrated substrate).
I hope I can help put an end to this discussion with all that I've said here, it's getting kind of redundant.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18875450 - 09/22/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: I've been waiting for someone to point this out. The Damion5050, "bucket tek" as you refer to it, is titled "My Elementary Coir Tek." The bucket tek is used for COIR and vermiculite.
I fixed that for you. Many people also use gypsum and tap water. You can't leave those out of the equation.
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: Are you trying to discredit Damion or something? I just don't see where this is going.
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: First, I want to say that this thread is not intended to debunk The Bucket Tek. But, I would like to potentially dispel some of the rhetoric.
That's the very first line in the OP
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: My intention is to potentially help those who are struggling like I was. [/quote
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: People, if you are going to use coir then try the bucket tek before you go through the trouble to properly pasteurize. The bucket tek is terribly easy compared to loading jars and worry about maintaining temperatures for the full amount of time just to prep coir. If you find the bucket tek fails you, then don't use it.
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said:I don't know how much more this needs to be discussed. If Damion5050's coir tek works for you, keep on keepin' on. If it doesn't, then continue to pasteurize your substrate in jars/bags.
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: So, if you've never tried the bucket, by all means give it a shot. There is a good chance you will be successful. However, if you are having contam problems, consider my thoughts and keep this thread in mind.
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: I hope I can help put an end to this discussion with all that I've said here, it's getting kind of redundant. 
You are free to ignore this thread if it annoys you. You can't put an end to this discussion, it will have to die on it's own.
You are also free to post as much anecdotal evidence as you like, but I already addressed that in the OP:
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I've been using the bucket tek for a long time with great success. I rarely get a contam before the second flush. Another testimonial. I don't doubt it and that is awesome. But, not everyone has the same results and that's a fact that can't be denied. Therefore, it's not a valid argument, it's merely an experience.
But, so many people use the bucket tek with great success. That is also true; I would be a fool to deny it. But, see the above argument.
...but thank you for contributing to the redundancy.
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18876462 - 09/22/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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It think it would actually be helpful if people could mention what kind of coir they've used with the bucket tek or similar method and whether or not they've had problems and what kind of problems. Also might be helpful to mention if you've found anything unusual like seeds in your coir. Otherwise all we can do is speculate.
I've mainly just used the Eco Earth reptile bedding both the shredded and bricks and only in a few isolated instances of mold since I started inoculating all my jars with clean agar cultures. However, before that it wasn't all that unusual to occasionally lose a tray to mold.
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Midnight Cyclone
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#18876700 - 09/22/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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So, literally, this discussion breaks down to this:
1. Try the bucket tek for coir (and vermiculite. excuse me, but doesn't verm naturally follow coir in this discussion? sorry, that just sounded almost condescending and definitely redundant. I'm trying to help here, not hinder) because it's very simple and beginner friendly.
2. If the bucket tek fails you after a couple tries, then properly pasteurize. Now, this bucket tek is only valid for coir/verm substrates. -ANY additives including poo, straw, coffee grounds, etc. are to be properly pasteurized if you're to guarantee 0% (or minimalize) failure rate due to contamination.
3. If you find that you're still contaminating after taking care to properly pasteurize, then you should look over sterile procedures and highly consider your spawn as a culprit.
Have anything to add?
Quote:
Kizzle said: I've mainly just used the Eco Earth reptile bedding both the shredded and bricks and only in a few isolated instances of mold since I started inoculating all my jars with clean agar cultures. However, before that it wasn't all that unusual to occasionally lose a tray to mold.
I've mainly used eco earth as well and I have what I consider good results.
I don't find anything unusual in my coir. The occasional stick, nothing out of the ordinary. If anything, I've been finding more corn and sunflower seeds in my WBS.. but that's neither here nor there.
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Kizzle
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Quote:
Have anything to add?
If a person is going to hang around the stove anyway, like while sterilizing spawn jars, it really wouldn't be any extra work or time to do a controlled pasteurization. So for some people and some circumstances there's really no reason not to properly pasteurize anyway.
What concerns me is the majority of the time when I see someone complaining about the bucket tek not working the circumstances suggest contaminated spawn as the cause. This is the common scenario I see:
Cultivator recently starts performing g2gs. Cultivator's contamination rate suddenly jumps to 100% after spawning, all trich, all showing up before or during the first flush. Cultivator insists that since their spawn appears healthy the bucket tek must be to blame.
Those kind of extreme and consistent results aren't likely to be solely from pasteurization method no matter which bulk substrate you're using or how crappy you're pasteurization procedure is.
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SpitballJedi
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Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: 1. Try the bucket tek for coir (and vermiculite. excuse me, but doesn't verm naturally follow coir in this discussion?
Not necessarily. Not to everyone who may be reading.
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: sorry, that just sounded almost condescending and definitely redundant. I'm trying to help here, not hinder) because it's very simple and beginner friendly.
I was under the impression you wanted to put this conversation to an end.
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: I hope I can help put an end to this discussion with all that I've said here, it's getting kind of redundant. 
But yet, you keep coming back There's a word for when something happens over and over pointlessly, but I can't think of it right now.
Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: 2. If the bucket tek fails you after a couple tries, then properly pasteurize. Now, this bucket tek is only valid for coir/verm substrates. -ANY additives including poo, straw, coffee grounds, etc. are to be properly pasteurized if you're to guarantee 0% (or minimalize) failure rate due to contamination.
3. If you find that you're still contaminating after taking care to properly pasteurize, then you should look over sterile procedures and highly consider your spawn as a culprit.
Have anything to add?
I agree. We came full circle. We are on the same page. It was a long road, but we got there.
At this point, neither of us really have anything to add. Most of what I had to say on the subject is in the OP.
Gosh, that word still escapes me.
P.S. All I've ever used is eco-earth bricks.
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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/22/13 06:56 PM)
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nepter627
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18877664 - 09/22/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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didnt get a response on my post so ill try this one.
"second run at trying to pasteurize in a bucket.
Prep Work.
Took a brick of coir. grated it down to a fine dust with a cheese grater so it would hydrate quickly. added two quarts verm. (fine verm)
took 5 quarts water. heated to 175 degrees let it drop to 162 before dumping in bucket.
mixed and packed down coir as much as i could. (it was hard since it was hot.)
check temperature an hour an a half later with digital thermometer read 142.3
im guessing ive successfully pasteurized in a bucket.
right?"
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: nepter627]
#18877720 - 09/22/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: `This is not a "How to". This is not about tips and tricks of various methods. Simply just bucket vs pasteurization.**Edit** What I mean is, if you don't understand how the bucket tek or pasteurization is done, then this thread may not be for you.
Sorry your question didn't get answered. It shouldn't be asked or answered here. Wait 24 hours and you can bump your OP.
Thank you for your cooperation and helping this thread from getting side tracked.
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MUSH HEAD420
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#19090843 - 11/05/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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For cooling anything for pasteurization I use an ice wand.
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PirateSwazey



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
#19194301 - 11/26/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Proper pasteurization eliminates one "what if" in the grand scheme of things, from spore to shroom. That's worth it to me.
After a couple encounters with the green I moved on to 'proper pasteurization' and never looked back.
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PirateSwazey]
#19194351 - 11/26/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've always used the bucket tek, still do. I was surprised when I came back to the shroomery from a hiatus that the new thing was to boil your to properly pasteurize sub. Personally I always get 2 flushes from a mono and toss it anyway, no need for me to dirty up my jars to get the same results . I'm not lazy either, just seems pointless.
I just thought of something though lol, just a thought and no I've never tried this. I figure if you were to put substrate(coir,poo,anything really) into a plastic bag and load them in the dishwasher, one may be able to get proper results. I figure a dishwasher gets anywhere from 150-200F. Idk just a thought.
For now I'll keep it oldschool. A bucket, coir, verm and water at 170. Works wonders.
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MUSH HEAD420
Kush Commander



Registered: 09/14/08
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If this isn't being passed around like the village whore, it should imo.
Quote:
tbagtag said: Bulk Sub Prep Tek Part 1: Hydration
Supplies needed: 2 Bricks Coco Coir (if bought at a grow shop make sure it wasnt treated with trich. The easiest one to get is Eco Earth from and major pet store. Works great for newbies) Vermiculite preferable medium (sometimes referred to as grade 2), fine will also work. Gypsum (pellets are a-ok) 2 gallons of water and 1 quart jar of water A bucket with a tight fitting lid

This recipe will make more than enough substrate for 2 30ish qt mini monos or 1 large mono over 66qt. When we are done I will give you tips for the leftovers.
Scale as needed
Step 1: Take 6 qts vermiculite and put in the bucket

2 cups gypsum - put it in the bucket

Should look like this

With your hand mix it as well as you can while its dry. This prevents gypsum clumps; especially with pelletized gypsum. Should look like below when done.

Now add 2 bricks of Eco Earth, if using bulk coir each brick of Eco Earth weighs 1# 7oz. So you will need 2# 14oz of bulk coir (yes i weighed all 3 bricks to find out)
Put this in the bucket.

Now pour 2 gallons of water and 1 quart jar of water in the bucket. Put the lid on it and set your timer for 60 minutes.

If you do not wait the full 60 minutes you will get leprosy, shits toxic till at field capacity. Well not really, just dont fuck with it for a full 60 minutes.
See you again in over an hour where we mix, test for field capacity and bag our sub for pasteurization.
Quote:
tbagtag said: Making Substrate Pt 2: Mixing and Pasteurization
Supplies needed:
Gloves Oven Roaster Gallon Ziploc Baggies Paper Towel Alcohol Meat Thermometer
So this is what you're going to be greeted with when you take the lid off of your bucket.

The gloves are optional as this is messy as fuck. The gloves just help with the cleanup and prevents any skin flakes or hair from your palms from getting in the mix.
We need to make sure we mix up the coir, verm and gypsum till it is even and there are no clumps of coir or pockets of verm.
One tip I give is pull from the bottom and build up along the side of the bucket and push down. Keep fluffing and repeating, I usually spend 30-60 minutes mixing my sub to get it nice. Take the time to do this right. After it is all mixed together put the lid back on the bucket and wait 30 minutes.

This is how it should look all the way through:

This extra 30 minutes helps with the redistribution of water after the mix.
After 30 minutes test for field capacity. When you pick up a clump no water should come out, when you squeeze you should have anywhere from a few drops to a small trickle. If it is too much water you can add another half quart of verm - but if you follow my instructions above, mix properly and wait that extra 30 minutes you will be good.
Each bag can hold up to 4qts of substrate, since we are only working with 22 qts of substrate we are going to put slightly less than that in each bag. Just try to make the bags as even as possible. Do not worry if there is coir in the zipper area, when we use the bags when can use sterile scissors to cut below the zipper area.

Zip up the bags (slide style bags will not work for this.
Assemble your roaster oven so it looks like below. Put your bags in before the water. Let out any excess air from the bags and re-zip.

In the middle bag open the top slightly to put your meat thermometer in and zip the bag shut as best as possible.

Fill the roaster with water halfway up the bags and put the lid on.


Plug in your roaster and set the temperature to 160 degrees. Check your meat thermometer after 2 hours, if you are not at 160 degrees on your thermometer check back in an hour and each hour after that (usually 4 hours to hit 160 degrees). Once the center has hit 160 unplug the roaster (mine doesnt have an on/off), leave the lid on for 1 hour and then promptly remove the substrate to cool after that hour.
You just now pasteurized 22qts of substrate in 4 hours without having to stand over the stove.
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Josh.0
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Quote:
nn-IlliniSpiralDMT said: I've always used the bucket tek, still do. For now I'll keep it oldschool. A bucket in a bucket, coir, verm and water at 170. Works wonders.
before it was a bucket in bucket i used,now it simply a Water Cooler Pasterurization Tek. a cooler holds temps longger than any one paint bucket ever could
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PocketRevolution
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Josh.0]
#19215275 - 12/01/13 11:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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A bit off topic.
I once tried using coir unheated. Just hydrated it and added spawn. It colonized in a ridiculously short time. Then it did nothing. It just sat there while the heat-treated coir, (spawned later) eventually caught up, and then fruited. For a short while, I thought the speedy colonization was going to be revolutionary. Then it completely refused to fruit.
Can't explain the science, but heat treatment is necessary.
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PussyFart
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Quote:
PocketRevolution said: A bit off topic.
I once tried using coir unheated. Just hydrated it and added spawn. It colonized in a ridiculously short time. Then it did nothing. It just sat there while the heat-treated coir, (spawned later) eventually caught up, and then fruited. For a short while, I thought the speedy colonization was going to be revolutionary. Then it completely refused to fruit.
Can't explain the science, but heat treatment is necessary.
MS or isolate?
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Stromrider
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PussyFart]
#19215796 - 12/02/13 03:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I seriously doubt that the lack of heating the coir had anything to do with the tub not fruiting
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Stromrider]
#19215856 - 12/02/13 04:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You were probably growing mold.
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jpack666



Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
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I might be off topic or bringing back to life an outdated thread but my 2 cents I wanted to add was that it sounds like the bucket tek for coir is worth trying and experimenting with but if I had to do just one tray in my life and didn't have a practice run at it, I think I'd just stick to my most precious guideline: PC everything for 1h, let cool for 24.
And one day, I'll probably end up trying a bucket tek and see how it goes...
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cronicr



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: jpack666] 1
#20061528 - 05/30/14 03:23 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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i can't believe i just read all that i just finished up a little experiment, i did four methods for coir(nothing else just coir) 1)simply hydrted 2)bucket tek 3)sterilized 4)pasturized i sat these in totes like this
 i just left the lids slightly off center and misted a couple times here and there and put the lid on at night
 givet hem some light some nice dirty air coming in cough on them once in awhile while i hotknifed and 3.5 nonths later not one of the four had contaminated at all, i mixed it all up and sterilized everything and used it with no problems on a delicate species in semilaceata which colonized fine in open air, sat for another two weeks colonizing and were at six weeks after that and still kicking!
 so my stance is prep your coir however you want just use clean spawn, the main idea is to cook your coir to make it easier for mycelium to digest, coir withoput myceliumis very contam resistent but once even clean spawn has colonized it it should be treated as any other sub though and get proper fruiting conditions with lots of fresh air to help prevent molds
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: cronicr]
#20062038 - 05/30/14 05:29 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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jpack666 , this thread may be a little old, but I don't think it's outdated yet. I created it so we could have a single thread dedicated to the subject.
I'm glad it gets rediscovered. There's a lot of good info. When ever I see a question on the subject, I simply post a link.
cronicr, nice experiment.
I've left CVG with boiling water in a bucket and it got mold in about 6 weeks. I've also left properly pasteurized CVG in jars with filters and got cobweb in about 7 days.
I still agree that contams before the first flush with CVG is likely your spawn, but it's not absolute. Proper pasteurization is a good place to start troubleshooting.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20062386 - 05/30/14 07:30 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wow I can't believe I missed this the first time around...
For me it comes down to two questions.
First if bucket tek is responsible for fail due to partial sterilization, why does full sterilization work so well? I have sterilized 50 some odd subs and the only pre first flush contam was definitively traced back to the spawn.
Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
My only pre first flush contam so far this year was on a properly pasteurized sub 
BTW nice experiment cron
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MudaFuka
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20062622 - 05/30/14 08:47 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I recently did a modified bucket tek on a few subs containing coir, manure, humus and verm and they are all free of contams going into third and fourth flushes. I Had a few pan subs trich out last week and they were all properly pasteurised.
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jpack666



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20062816 - 05/30/14 09:48 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: jpack666]
#20092974 - 06/06/14 01:48 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize. Unless you are fruiting in a clean room which would defeat the purpose of pasteurizing and open air fruiting, there are going to be a shitload of mold spores present as well as airborn bacteria. Bacteria and mold is is on EVERYTHING unless it has been sterilized.
-------------------- Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them . Just a warning
Edited by MastaBlastar (06/06/14 01:51 PM)
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jpack666



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20093065 - 06/06/14 02:20 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MastaBlastar said:
Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize. Unless you are fruiting in a clean room which would defeat the purpose of pasteurizing and open air fruiting, there are going to be a shitload of mold spores present as well as airborn bacteria. Bacteria and mold is is on EVERYTHING unless it has been sterilized.
From the archives: The beneficial microorganisms(mainly bacteria)that are left alive when pasteurizing, guard the substrate against other contaminants, for instance different molds, but don't affect the growth of mushroom mycelium. Pasteurization is used for bulk substrates like straw, dung and composts and wood chips, also casings, and sterilization for all high nutritious substrates, like different grains.
I think PW is saying that coir doesn't contain a lot of the particular type of bacteria that "guard the substrate against other contaminants, for instance different molds, but don't affect the growth of mushroom mycelium." But what you are saying is that all bacteria is bad so I don't know if you are right... The point of pasturization is not to kill all bacteria, it is to kill the bad ones without killing too much of the nutrients. Where a very high nutritious sub is used, perhaps coir is one of them, you'll have plenty of nutrients left after PC and no need to keep the temps lower to avoid killing the nutrients. Although that being said, pasturization would never make the sub worse IMO but perhaps the idea is just that it doesn't make much difference with coir. And if PW is correct in saying that coir lacks the mold-guarding bacteria in comparison with hpoo or straw, that would make his point, although I don't know enoug about bacteria to be sure. Hence: my 1000000$ question
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: jpack666]
#20093169 - 06/06/14 02:54 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
MastaBlastar said:
Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize. Unless you are fruiting in a clean room which would defeat the purpose of pasteurizing and open air fruiting, there are going to be a shitload of mold spores present as well as airborn bacteria. Bacteria and mold is is on EVERYTHING unless it has been sterilized.
From the archives: The beneficial microorganisms(mainly bacteria)that are left alive when pasteurizing, guard the substrate against other contaminants, for instance different molds, but don't affect the growth of mushroom mycelium. Pasteurization is used for bulk substrates like straw, dung and composts and wood chips, also casings, and sterilization for all high nutritious substrates, like different grains.
I think PW is saying that coir doesn't contain a lot of the particular type of bacteria that "guard the substrate against other contaminants, for instance different molds, but don't affect the growth of mushroom mycelium." But what you are saying is that all bacteria is bad so I don't know if you are right... The point of pasturization is not to kill all bacteria, it is to kill the bad ones without killing too much of the nutrients. Where a very high nutritious sub is used, perhaps coir is one of them, you'll have plenty of nutrients left after PC and no need to keep the temps lower to avoid killing the nutrients. Although that being said, pasturization would never make the sub worse IMO but perhaps the idea is just that it doesn't make much difference with coir. And if PW is correct in saying that coir lacks the mold-guarding bacteria in comparison with hpoo or straw, that would make his point, although I don't know enoug about bacteria to be sure. Hence: my 1000000$ question 
I never said anything about good or bad, just that it is all present, because it is.
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cronicr



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20093185 - 06/06/14 02:58 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MastaBlastar said:
Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize. Unless you are fruiting in a clean room which would defeat the purpose of pasteurizing and open air fruiting, there are going to be a shitload of mold spores present as well as airborn bacteria. Bacteria and mold is is on EVERYTHING unless it has been sterilized.
your talking a sifferent process all together though, things like h-manure go through a process as they age in the field like fire flang and it isn't as simple as bacteria landing on the sub, bottom line straw and manure subs have a whack more of a microbial count then coir will
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: cronicr]
#20093785 - 06/06/14 05:23 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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The high temperatures used to process coir for packaging kills pretty much anything in it.
Any microbes that are on it by the time you get it, have been likely picked up during travel.
I doubt the contaminate load is very high and whatever is there is not likely to grow once you get it wet because not many things can germinate on it.
I'm starting to think CVG does not benefit from proper pasteurization. But, because there's no telling what's on it, I think it best to do something to kill as much shit as you can with heat.
Maybe the key to the bucket tek is to keep the heat up to 140F or above for an hour or more just to kill shit and it doesn't matter how high above 140F you get. At least at 140F you know you're killing shit. 140F is certainly debatable.
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20096158 - 06/07/14 12:16 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Running a test with 4+ tubs each of cold water, bucket tek, proper pasteurization, sterilization I think would be the way to figure it out. Once I get my flow hood this might be my first test. http://www.slideshare.net/jchau/coconut-coir-processing
From what I can tell there is no heat used other than the sun in processing so there would be LOADS of endospores on the coir, everything you could imagine as these are not sterile or even remotely clean places its made from the looks of it. They just dry out coconut husks, run them thru a big chipper machine and then load it into a press, all in the open air. Maybe other companies use heat, maybe a kiln to dry them, but I cannot see how that would help the process and would use large amounts of power. Even then, they would be open and exposed in open environments that again are not clean.
Maybe i am wrong, we need a coir expert, but proper pasteurization works for me and is a set and forget process that takes less time than the bucket. I set my little 1300 watt remote burner to 1 and that makes the water stay at 165 exactly, it is amazingly convenient. All I have to do is hydrate and mix, load a bag with a probe in it, turn it on and walk away. The probe notifies me wirelessly when it hits 140, I go check different areas making sure the whole thing is 140 and then set my timer. but that's me, I honestly think it comes down to just what works for you and clearly both methods work.
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Edited by MastaBlastar (06/07/14 12:28 PM)
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20096818 - 06/07/14 03:47 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize.
Of course but there's a difference between bacteria landing on a substrate and dying and bacteria colonizing a substrate. Endospores don't colonize. Mold spores don't colonize. For that to happen they need to germinate and that requires a food source which coir is not to something like a spore or endospore which has almost no metabolism.
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#20100442 - 06/08/14 12:45 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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The bacteria is always present in the coconut husks and is not removed before or during processing. Endospores DO colonize when they wake up again, that is what they do. Al they really need is water, espeecially the bacteria. Maybe there is something i am missing with the processing of coir, but coir should be full of microorganisms and need a heat treatment of some type to get them to numbers that allow the mycelium we want to have the best chance.
-------------------- Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them . Just a warning
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#20100490 - 06/08/14 12:57 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MastaBlastar said: The bacteria is always present in the coconut husks and is not removed before or during processing. Endospores DO colonize when they wake up again, that is what they do. Al they really need is water, espeecially the bacteria. Maybe there is something i am missing with the processing of coir, but coir should be full of microorganisms and need a heat treatment of some type to get them to numbers that allow the mycelium we want to have the best chance.
not really, it's pressed at high pressure and we heat treat for the mycelium to be able to digest the coir not microbial number control,this is also y coir is the only sub you wanna heat treat for outdoor purposes
Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize.
Of course but there's a difference between bacteria landing on a substrate and dying and bacteria colonizing a substrate. Endospores don't colonize. Mold spores don't colonize. For that to happen they need to germinate and that requires a food source which coir is not to something like a spore or endospore which has almost no metabolism.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: cronicr]
#20100603 - 06/08/14 01:31 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Read up on how much heat is generated by those presses. I saw one being advertised as generating in excess of 800C from the pressure. Maybe that is embellished by the manufacturer but I doubt much could survive even half that temp for very long.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20100652 - 06/08/14 01:44 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've done a little research and have not yet found any specifics on how much heat is used to make bricks.
But, I did find this Wikipedia excerpt in "Uses" interesting:
Quote:
In horticulture, coir is a substitute for sphagnum moss because it is free of bacteria and fungal spores. Coir is also useful to deter snails from delicate plantings, and as a growing medium in intensive glasshouse (greenhouse) horticulture.[citation needed]
Coconut coir from Mexico has been found to contain large numbers of colonies of the beneficial fungus Aspergillus terreus, which acts as a biological control against plant pathogenic fungi.[6]
Coir is also used as a substrate to grow mushrooms. The coir is usually mixed with vermiculite and pasteurized with boiling water. After the coir/vermiculite mix has cooled to room temperature, it is placed in a larger container, usually a plastic box. Previously prepared spawn jars are then added, spawn is usually grown in jars using substrates such as rye grains or wild bird seed. This spawn is the mushrooms mycelium and will colonize the coir/vermiculite mix eventually fruiting mushrooms.
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jpack666



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20100654 - 06/08/14 01:45 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah, the presses are probably very hot seeing how well packed this stuff is.
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: jpack666]
#20102736 - 06/08/14 11:17 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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The wiki entry specifically states pasteurizing, not cooking, i rest my case. And I bet it does not heat up at all in the press. It takes repeated strikes to generate the type of heat you are talking about or insane pressure that is well beyond what is required to press coir into a brick.
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Edited by MastaBlastar (06/08/14 11:18 PM)
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cronicr



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20102757 - 06/08/14 11:25 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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still if ya leave some coir hydrated nuthing happens, do that to manure and watch what happens
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blindingleaf
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: cronicr]
#20102808 - 06/08/14 11:47 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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just cause there is bacteria on coir, does not mean it is beneficial bacteria for mushrooms  u would really have to do some digging to find out what kind of bacteria u are personally trying to save from sterilizing coir. all we have now is anecdotal evidence from many many posters here that sterilizing coir does not impede successful results in cubensis cultivation.
even if u found some kind of article or journal on this, i would guess where the coir is sourced from would affect the kinds of bacteria found on it. also, seasonality could affect the presence of certain bacteria over others, making "hard facts about coir substrate prep" difficult to prove.
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blindingleaf]
#20102855 - 06/09/14 12:00 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I completely agree, hence why we pasteurize it. The nature of pasteurization is that certain stuff lives and certain stuff dies at certain temps and it just so happens 140-170 leave what we want. Same way milk is processed.
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cronicr



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20102863 - 06/09/14 12:02 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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although that is normally why we pasturize it isn't why we treat coir with heat though
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20102868 - 06/09/14 12:03 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Except mold does not germinate on it. So it does not matter. I do find that sterilizing has some benefits over pastuerization, probably due to greater access to nutes for the myc.
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blindingleaf
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20102879 - 06/09/14 12:05 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MastaBlastar said: I completely agree, hence why we pasteurize it. The nature of pasteurization is that certain stuff lives and certain stuff dies at certain temps and it just so happens 140-170 leave what we want. Same way milk is processed.
not always. actinomycetes (fire fang) that grows in healthy, home made compost, dies at 140f. that is tremendously beneficial to button or cubensis.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20103731 - 06/09/14 05:44 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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The post actually says "pasteurized with boiling water". It sounds more like the bucket tek than proper pasteurization.
But, it's just a Wikipedia entry, so it's not the authority a case should be rested on.
If anyone can post a link to specific details on how coir is made in to bricks, that would be great. I'm interested in temperature and time. Seems like I saw something somewhere, but I can't find it now.
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Edited by SpitballJedi (06/09/14 08:07 AM)
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20104603 - 06/09/14 11:05 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I did post a link with pictures AND a video of people feeding husks into a shredder as well as the machine that compresses the bricks. Al done in the open air, outside, and the compressions machine you can easily see does not produce heat or in any way heat the bricks. You dry the husks, shred them to desired consistency, and press them into bricks.
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Edited by MastaBlastar (06/09/14 11:10 AM)
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cronicr



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20104609 - 06/09/14 11:06 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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those presses are fucking expensive lol
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20104616 - 06/09/14 11:07 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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cool. I'm all for proper pasteurization man, i don't wanna come off as someone who doesn't understand what the benefits of it are. i just think for whatever reason, coir is a substrate that does not necessarily benefit from pasteurization over sterilization, and probably the only substrate that could make that claim. recently, i have been pasteurizing it, but thats cause i mix it with poo. I've also combined sterilized coir and pasteurized straw (obviously prepped separately) with success.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blindingleaf]
#20105777 - 06/09/14 03:41 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
i just think for whatever reason, coir is a substrate that does not necessarily benefit from pasteurization over sterilization, and probably the only substrate that could make that claim.
And vermiculite which doesn't really benefit from either, at least if it hasn't been sitting around collecting dust.
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: blindingleaf]
#20106039 - 06/09/14 04:36 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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From my research, and from statements from long time TC's, you CAN get by without pproper pasteurization, and you can sterilize w/e, the bucket tek is like close enough to proper pasteurization that its ok. As soon as you open the lid to stir and p[ut your grubby hand in it you are re-introducing pretty much everything so partial sterilization may not matter as much due to this. But long term I see people saying yes you can get lucky without heat treatment, and you can get luck sterilizing (I imagine colonized coir is as contam resistant as colonized grain). SO if your grow/spawn room is clean and you use goo procedure, you really are just keeping contams from being introduced in the first place. I KNOW that when I improperly pasteurize, I get mean green a week into being spawned with coir as my grow space is near impossible to keep the air clean, BUT when i do pasteurize properly, I get 3 flushes easy. bleach is your friend.
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20106166 - 06/09/14 05:04 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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You're using brown coir right?
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#20106248 - 06/09/14 05:22 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I'm somewhere around 60 sterilized coir subs spawned in open air with no issues. My house is old, with dogs that shed like mad, I'm not especially careful when spawning and I have had no issues that I could not trace back to inoculate.
My last couple tubs to contam shortly after the first flush were properly pastuerized coir verm, and I only did those that way cause my sterilizer was full of grain. It was bad spawn no question.
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20107513 - 06/09/14 09:55 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Spawn can become contaminated while spawning. It wasn't necessarily that the jars were contaminated for it to be the spawn. Freshly spawned grains are vulnerable to contamination for a couple days while they recover.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#20107577 - 06/09/14 10:10 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Never heard that before. Not that i doubt you but the common consensus is that fully colonized grains are contamination resistant.
At any rate I know that it was the spawn for those tubs as I went back and checked the plates used to inoculate and found a sneaky contam in them. I now am more wary of only doing a single transfer from spores, especially with prints I did not take myself.
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20107616 - 06/09/14 10:22 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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It was not possible the contam came after you made your transfer?
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20107666 - 06/09/14 10:38 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Possible but not likely. If so that means the only two coir verm subs I bothered to properly pasteurize in the last 6 months are also the only ones I have had contam pre first flush. I had two others contam after the first flush on sterilized subs which were the only ones where I attemped to inoculate the spawn master with a ms syringe. Otherwise all my sterilized coir verm subs (around 60, including enoki, reishi and other species) have done excellent. Sterilized coir verm has been pretty good to me so far
Edited by Pastywhyte (06/09/14 10:45 PM)
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20107786 - 06/09/14 11:30 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Never heard that before. Not that i doubt you but the common consensus is that fully colonized grains are contamination resistant.
At any rate I know that it was the spawn for those tubs as I went back and checked the plates used to inoculate and found a sneaky contam in them. I now am more wary of only doing a single transfer from spores, especially with prints I did not take myself.
But it's not exactly fully colonized after you shake the grains apart. To clarify though I'm not talking about airborne contaminants. Trich is the main culprit people seem to be running into and Trich has sticky spores that spread by touch. If you've been handling a source of the mold, like soil or dust, you can cross contaminate anything you touch and freshly spawned grains are particularly vulnerable to it.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#20107801 - 06/09/14 11:37 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I might not use gloves while spawning but, I usually wash my hands after playing in the mud 
I don't mean to give the impression I have a lot of subs trich out before the third flush, I'm holding around a 90-95% success ratio. That spawn was the culprit, I got sloppy with the culture and I am certain that is the vector.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20751053 - 10/25/14 10:23 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Time for an update. I have changed my position since the OP. Here's where I am on it now:
I'm confident my issues as described in the OP were because of contaminated spawn.
When I started to properly pasteurize CVG, I had zero contamination. However, I was also just getting in to agar as well at that time.
After many successful tubs from proper pasteurization, I started sterilizing my CVG, water bathing, and even bucket teking again. I have had 0% contamination rate.
I'm confident that my 100% success rate has to do with clean spawn due to agar work. Nothing else has changed. I still use the same coir, vermiculite, and gypsum.
It was a long process, taking over a year, to come to this conclusion. But, I feel as though I've proved it to myself. I think this is an important but often overlooked aspect of this hobby. You don't have to take anyone's word for anything, just prove it through experimentation and be open to the possibility that you may actually prove yourself to be wrong.
My position on this subject is now a firm "If it contams before the 2nd flush when using CVG, then it's your spawn". It's likely still your spawn even after that, but 2 flushes I think is a solid marker to be firm about.
Thanks to everyone who have participated in this debate. But, the debate can still continue for those who are interested.
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tripdawg420
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20751131 - 10/25/14 10:45 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tripdawg420]
#20751231 - 10/25/14 11:15 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can agree with that for me I had contams with pasteurized coir then started to get better when I got into agar then I started to sterilize coir and didn't get contams so it was my skill with regards to clean spawn.
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maddchef
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bodhisatta]
#20753667 - 10/25/14 11:25 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Kizzle what diff does it make if the spores are airborne or stuck to ypur hands from handling a mold source? I'm assuming you mean only spores and not an alive culture of mold sticking to your hands?
Gotta be the first I've ever heard of grains being vulnerable when you spawn. If this is the case how would one even combat that?
Even with the air off and no drafts, with that large of a surface area you're going to get competitor mold in there no matter what.
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: maddchef]
#20753834 - 10/26/14 01:38 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Both. Clumps of Trichoderma spores always have mycelium fragments mixed in with them, although the fragment don't survive very long.
The amount of dust that can be stuck to your hands, clothes and hair compared to the amount of dust floating around a fairly clean room is by far going to be largest source of contamination. If you touch a dusty surface you're picking up massive amounts of dust and it's easy to forget about if it happened say 5 minutes ago. Of course there'll always airborne mold floating around in any room, especially if there's been person in it. You kick up a lot of dust just walking around. It's minimize all sources.
It pointless to go through the work pasteurizing a substrate and then exposing to large amount of contaminants. I mean the relatively relatively brief open air exposure that's unavoidable is one thing.
I actually found mold growing on unspawned coir/verm for the first time and it was wrapped and in the refrigerator nonetheless. Now it was hardly normal circumstances. I had some leftover coir I figured I'd save and the only container I could think of to put it in was one of my "incubators" I wasn't using which is basically this
 A tray of verm I set my jars in when it's cold. It's been sitting out in the air collecting dust for ages and I left the vermiculite in it figuring I'd pasteurize later and that it would fine in the fridge. Still it's a real eye opener, this is what I found.
 That's only after a month in the fridge.
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Pudgy
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#20754124 - 10/26/14 07:09 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: I actually found mold growing on unspawned coir/verm for the first time and it was wrapped and in the refrigerator nonetheless. Now it was hardly normal circumstances. I had some leftover coir I figured I'd save and the only container I could think of to put it in was one of my "incubators" I wasn't using which is basically this
 A tray of verm I set my jars in when it's cold. It's been sitting out in the air collecting dust for ages and I left the vermiculite in it figuring I'd pasteurize later and that it would fine in the fridge. Still it's a real eye opener, this is what I found.
 That's only after a month in the fridge.
That is very interesting actually. There was a thread where Pasty pointed out the fact that his snake's coir wasn't growing mold even with snake pee/poo on it and whatnot. Essentially in that photo -- you have coir that was underneath vermiculite? So obviously it was like cased mold on that coir?
Was that brick or bagged coir?
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pudgy]
#20754371 - 10/26/14 09:10 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have a feeling the plastic over the top helped a lot with the mold growing. I've left hydrated coir and verm out for weeks and it just sits without growing nasty shit
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bodhisatta]
#20754488 - 10/26/14 09:50 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I put some bucketed coir verm in a ziploc bag and had it around for 2 years. Never grew anything but it started to dry out after 18 months. I eventually just used it to case a small mono.
Because coir is a product with poor quality control I would not be surprised if the few cases of mold in coir is nothing more than some foreign material in the brick, probably sawdust or leaves. Trich loves wood and will germinate on it readily. At that point however I doubt pasteurization is your answer.
Most wood lovers that are spawned in open air rely on their vigour and speed to take over the sub before molds can germinate.Others that are less aggressive are colonized in bags and the wood is sterilized not pasteurized. When I attempted to open air spawn hericum it never could take over the sub in time and that was with pasteurized and lime buffered substrates. Reishi on the other hand tore through sterilized sawdust (and coir) which was open air spawed in 4 days at a high sspawn ratio. No chance for mold to get in the door.
What does this mean? Well if your concerns are that your coir has foreign matter in it that could contam then you can try a few tactics. You could pasteurize it, though I doubt this will matter much. Pasteurized and even limed sawdust has about a week window IME. If you can't complete your spawn run in that time then your kinda hooped. A better approach would be to speed the spawn run up. Considering that coir have very little microbial activity your pasteurization attempt is not likely to do much. Speed is more likely to be the difference maker here.
Some people have spawned to unpasteurized manure with success simply due to the speed of the spawn run. Better culturing practices, high spawn rates, spawn with more nock points, grain dunking, slurry spawning are all good ideas to increase speed. Sterilizing your coir can also lead to faster spawn runs, I have had many spawn runs done with 1:2 ratio and simple rye in 4 days. This is going to close the window for spores to germinate. Spores that have landed on a grain that is recovering will not germinate if the culture recovers fast and consumes them eliminating that vector. Speed and strong culture are your best friends here IMO.
Anyway thats just my opinion. Clean spawn and lots of it will be your best tools. Making the nutes accessible to the myc is also going to help
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20754492 - 10/26/14 09:52 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I do break apart my coir first to remove foreign object, you wouldn't believe the shit you find in coir bricks.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: bodhisatta]
#20754506 - 10/26/14 09:58 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Me too. Rocks and sticks are most common but I also see nails and screws n shit. Pet grade are a little better than hydro store bricks, probably cause no one wants something sharp stabbing their snake or foreign material that make be toxic like ceder shavings etc. But its hard to argue with hydro store prices
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Pudgy
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20754518 - 10/26/14 10:03 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Rocks and sticks are most common but I also see nails and screws n shit.
Wow -- I'll keep that in mind.
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Pudgy
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pudgy]
#20754523 - 10/26/14 10:04 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for that write up Pasty, TONS of good information in that post that I haven't thought of or read anywhere else. That really should be somewhere readily available to noobs seeking grain or bulk.
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budmanman
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pudgy]
#21012590 - 12/22/14 03:12 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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I find a higher success ratio when cooking more bricks in a tub than 1 brick in a pot or a bucket. I think it is because it takes longer to cool when making more coir at once.
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DirdyD


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: budmanman]
#21548456 - 04/14/15 09:06 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Great read.
Bumping in hopes that others get a view that haven't already.
Congrats on the lesson, SBJ!
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Rosen_Rot
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: DirdyD]
#21648019 - 05/07/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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I wanted to address the issue on why bucket teks are usedvat all. My thought is that perhaps the bucket tek can help ease transaction and get the user familiarised on why he does such things. Maybe the idea of pasteurising puts people off and overwhelming. Frequently I've read comments on how information on shroomery can be overwhelming due to its vast diverse methods and techniques.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Rosen_Rot]
#21648066 - 05/07/15 07:59 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bucket teks are useful to new people due to the fact that its very simple to do. Coir verm is very forgiving. Later on the bucket is great for people with a lot on the go. If ya need to prep 100 quarts of sub, buckets can do it really fast and easy. Its no good for complex subs but a great way to get fruits with small risk while your still learning.
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danjaone
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this is very important!!!! coir brick is so dense and just throwing in a brick and expecting it to stay at temp while decompressing is careless.
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danjaone
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this is mad important! needs more attention!!!!
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: danjaone]
#23979043 - 01/03/17 02:41 PM (7 years, 26 days ago) |
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It doesn't matter though, and there's an edit button so you don't double post
You can hydrate coir with tap water if you want
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