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Invisibletbagtag
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18868505 - 09/20/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Whippy said:
Quote:

Midnight Cyclone said:
Okay, so assuming that you can keep the bucket+substrate between those certain temperatures for 60-90 mins then the bucket tek should provide proper pasteurization. Should it not?




I am quoting you for no reason other than what you are saying is the basis of the discussion in my mind.  My opinion is that since there is not a lot of data about the temps of bucket, spawn etc.  If it works for you, you have a method.  I tried a few times at different water temps, and almost always had fails.  I do pasteurize proper and have had issues down to zero.




Here is a write up I did on the bucket tek vs pasteurization.

Quote:

tbagtag said:
What is the difference between bucket tek and proper pasteurization?

A lot

Some will claim that it accomplishes the same goal, but it doesn't.  The reason it works for coir is because coir is naturally contam resistant.  You could potentially spawn to non-pasteurized coir and still obtain results.  If bucket tek worked properly it would work for other substrates such as poo and straw.

Pasteurization, not just what we refer to as proper pasteurization, requires 2 things - a temperature between 160-170 degrees being held for 1 hour followed by a rapid cool down.  This is why we when we pasteurize we remove our substrate from the bath we submerge it in.

With bucket tek there is no guarantee that the substrate will reach the proper temperature, let alone hold it for an hour.  You cannot check as this will release heat and expose your substrate to unwanted visitors.

Now in the event that the temperature of the substrate could even reach and hold the temperature you cannot provide a rapid cool down.

How do I know this?  Physics and math!  Plastic buckets from a hardware store do not and cannot break the laws of thermodynamics and Newton's law of cooling.

Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are both in thermal equilibrium with a third system then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. This law helps define the notion of temperature.

In physics, the phrase thermal equilibrium is used sometimes in the common parlance of the ordinary language of physical discourse, and sometimes as a specialized technical term in thermodynamics.
As common parlance, the phrase refers to steady states of temperature, which may be spatial or temporal. The meaning varies from occasion to occasion, as with all ordinary language usages.
Thermal equilibrium as a technical term in thermodynamics can also be used in two senses. One sense is that of thermal equilibrium within a system for itself. The other sense is that of a relation between the respective physical states of two bodies. Thermal equilibrium in a system for itself means that the temperature within the system is spatially and temporally uniform. Thermal equilibrium as a relation between the physical states of two bodies means that there is actual or implied thermal connection between them, through a path that is permeable only to heat, and that no

The relation of thermal equilibrium is an instance of a contact equilibrium between two bodies. This means that it refers to transfer through a selectively permeable partition, the contact path. For the relation of thermal equilibrium, the contact path is permeable only to heat; it does not permit the passage of matter or work. According to Lieb and Yngvason, the essential meaning of the relation of thermal equilibrium includes that it is reflexive and symmetric. It is not included in the essential meaning whether it is or is not transitive. After discussing the semantics of the definition, they postulate a substantial physical axiom, that they call the "zeroth law of thermodynamics", that thermal equilibrium is a transitive relation. They comment that the equivalence classes of systems so established are called isotherms.

Newton's Model of Cooling says that the rate at which an object loses or gains heat is proportional to the difference between its temperature and the ambient temperature

So, if an object gains heat at the same rate that the heat is dispersed we would need to work the equation to determine the exact temperature of the water and at what intervals the water cools.  The rate the water cools is the rate the coir raises - at some point it will meet at an equal temperature.  seems like a lot of work for something we can do much easier and do it right.  Doing pasteurization is much easier and will give you the ability to move onto additional species.  Bucket tek is not pasteurization and will not give you these skills.






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OfflinePrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
    #18868518 - 09/20/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You state pasteurization temps as 160-170 for an hour.
Im pretty sure its 140-160 for an hour.

Besides that your write up is very good


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Invisibletbagtag
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
    #18868552 - 09/20/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrinceShroom said:
You state pasteurization temps as 160-170 for an hour.
Im pretty sure its 140-160 for an hour.

Besides that your write up is very good




That was based primarily on coir. Speaking out my ass right now,  but I think sterilization temp for coir is 180. And if I understand correctly poo is around 140 to 150. I could be wrong though.


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OfflinePrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
    #18868562 - 09/20/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tbagtag said:
Quote:

PrinceShroom said:
You state pasteurization temps as 160-170 for an hour.
Im pretty sure its 140-160 for an hour.

Besides that your write up is very good




That was based primarily on coir. Speaking out my ass right now,  but I think sterilization temp for coir is 180. And if I understand correctly poo is around 140 to 150. I could be wrong though.



No pasturization happens when you hold something at 140-160 for an hour no matter what the substrate.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
    #18868579 - 09/20/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah I wouldn't think the composition of the substrate would matter. Wouldn't it be the contams were wanting to ward off (or keep) that would decide what the temperture needs to be


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Invisibletbagtag
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
    #18868596 - 09/20/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrinceShroom said:
Quote:

tbagtag said:
Quote:

PrinceShroom said:
You state pasteurization temps as 160-170 for an hour.
Im pretty sure its 140-160 for an hour.

Besides that your write up is very good




That was based primarily on coir. Speaking out my ass right now,  but I think sterilization temp for coir is 180. And if I understand correctly poo is around 140 to 150. I could be wrong though.



No pasturization happens when you hold something at 140-160 for an hour no matter what the substrate.




Well this is pertinent to milk but method and time determines the temps for milk.  It also talks about how sugar and other compositions change the time and temp required.  Couldn't the same be true for substrates?

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pasteurization-methods-temperatures-d_1642.html


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
    #18868604 - 09/20/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't see why not. Different substrates harbor different possible contams correct?


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OfflinePrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: tbagtag]
    #18868636 - 09/20/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

140-160F for an hour for substrates.  As per :rr: and stamets:shrug:
Thats more than enough for me.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Stromrider]
    #18868658 - 09/20/13 04:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Pasteurization was developed to kill pathogens harmful to humans.

The point of pasteurization seems to be to kill unwanted pathogens while leaving others.

So, i would guess that depending on what you are trying to kill and keep would make a difference in temperature and time needs.

If true, then pasteurization parameters would be different for coir and milk.

It seems to me, based on my experience and much reading, 140-160 for 60 minutes is proper pasteurization for mushroom substrates.

Do we really need to keep saying "proper"? Isn't "improper pasteurization" kind of an oxymoron? It's either pasteurized or it's not, right? :shrug:


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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/20/13 05:00 PM)


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18868688 - 09/20/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

yeah I agree spit. Let's all either start saying "Pasteurization" or "bucket tek" since that is pretty much the only 2 different methods used to prepare substrates. Sure there are several different ways to "properly pasteurize" your substrate but i see no need to keep saying "proper".

It is either pasteurization or bucket tek from now on! Got it guys :lol:


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
    #18868748 - 09/20/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place and thats what pasteurization supposed to be about... killing molds while preserving bacteria. Compare that to sterilization which is killing everything. Due to the nature of coir there should be no significant amount of bacteria on it that could survive pasteurization nor a significant amount of mold spores that need to be killed.

The only thing I can think of is with the different brands being manufactured, maybe some are being contaminated with other materials. I've heard people mention finding seeds in their coir which I never have. As of yet no one has come up with a particular brand that seems to fail with the bucket tek but maybe there is one.


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Offlineretaardvark
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
    #18868833 - 09/20/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place and thats what pasteurization supposed to be about... killing molds while preserving bacteria. Compare that to sterilization which is killing everything. Due to the nature of coir there should be no significant amount of bacteria on it that could survive pasteurization nor a significant amount of mold spores that need to be killed.

The only thing I can think of is with the different brands being manufactured, maybe some are being contaminated with other materials. I've heard people mention finding seeds in their coir which I never have. As of yet no one has come up with a particular brand that seems to fail with the bucket tek but maybe there is one.




I came across information online that suggested the mechanism of pasteurization is allowing thermophilic organisms to gain significant foothold on substrate nutrient. I asked a few people steeped in microbiology and they said it seemed plausible.

When you're hydrating your substrate, it doesn't matter if it came sterile in the package, it now has many millions of organisms throughout it just by nature of working in open air, with tap water, etc.

I asked about this a week ago for review and nobody commented. :shrug:


Edited by retaardvark (09/20/13 05:50 PM)


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: retaardvark]
    #18868884 - 09/20/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place...




I'm no biologist, so it can be difficult for me to prove or argue this matter. I don't even know what the "good bacteria" is.

But I find it very difficult to believe coir produced on another continent on the other side of the world can make it all the way to my house without picking up many molds and bacteria/endospores. :shrug:


I still think, part of the problem with bucket tek is in the mixing of the spawn and substrate.

Granted, coir/verm/gyp is contam resistant, but there are going to be unwanted pathogens left when using this tek. When it's just sitting without grains, then it has little or no opportunity to show itself.

I think, if we mix too rough, we break the outer colonized layer of grains and expose the inner uncolonized part.

When this happens, we have introduced a food source to the unwanted pathogens.

Quote:

retaardvark said:
... the mechanism of pasteurization is allowing thermophilic organisms to gain significant foothold on substrate nutrient.




If this is true, then i don't see why it should not apply to coir/verm/gypsum.

And if it does apply, it may help to explain why pasteurization of coir/verm/gyp can still work even if some of the grains get broken while mixing.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (09/20/13 06:05 PM)


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OfflinePrinceShroom
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: retaardvark]
    #18868890 - 09/20/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

For me its enough that to pasteurize a mushroom substrate I hold it between 140-160F for an hour.  Enough said.  When I become a milk farmer or another occupation that requires me to pasteurize something Ill re look at my pasteurization technique.  We are growing mushrooms here isnt it enough to know 140-160 for an hour?


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Invisibletbagtag
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
    #18868911 - 09/20/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrinceShroom said:
For me its enough that to pasteurize a mushroom substrate I hold it between 140-160F for an hour.  Enough said.  When I become a milk farmer or another occupation that requires me to pasteurize something Ill re look at my pasteurization technique.  We are growing mushrooms here isnt it enough to know 140-160 for an hour?





I dont think anyone is disputing this fact with you :shrug:.  But if you look at Frank's write up on pasteurization he even mentions 2 separate temperatures.  1 for poo, 1 for coir.  We could always research the possible molds and bacteria's that could grow on both.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
    #18868930 - 09/20/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Given the point of this thread, I would like to restrict posts of that research to coir, vermiculite, gypsum, and water. Thank you.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
    #18868940 - 09/20/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I thought it had been settled already and we moved on. I don't think anyone is arguing about that :shrug:


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: retaardvark]
    #18869464 - 09/20/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

retaardvark said:
Quote:

Kizzle said:
To reiterate I don't see how you can preserve bacteria that doesn't exist in the first place and thats what pasteurization supposed to be about... killing molds while preserving bacteria. Compare that to sterilization which is killing everything. Due to the nature of coir there should be no significant amount of bacteria on it that could survive pasteurization nor a significant amount of mold spores that need to be killed.

The only thing I can think of is with the different brands being manufactured, maybe some are being contaminated with other materials. I've heard people mention finding seeds in their coir which I never have. As of yet no one has come up with a particular brand that seems to fail with the bucket tek but maybe there is one.




I came across information online that suggested the mechanism of pasteurization is allowing thermophilic organisms to gain significant foothold on substrate nutrient. I asked a few people steeped in microbiology and they said it seemed plausible.

When you're hydrating your substrate, it doesn't matter if it came sterile in the package, it now has many millions of organisms throughout it just by nature of working in open air, with tap water, etc.

I asked about this a week ago for review and nobody commented. :shrug:



You're missing an important aspect. The bacteria we try to keep alive by pasteurizing has already colonized the substrate, that what gives it the upper hand. Any time you move bacteria to a new substrate there is a lag time as it adapts to grow there. So even if you were to add the same species and amount of bacteria to sterile substrate as what would have been present had it been pasteurized instead of sterilized it would still not be the equivalent of pasteurization.

As I mentioned earlier for bacteria to antagonize mold it needs to be present in sufficient amount. That amount will not be achieved simply from relatively small amounts of airborne bacteria landing on it nor will it be uniform throughout the substrate. The bacteria needs to have already been established there in significant numbers throughout the substrate and they need to have already adapted themselves to grow there. When that happens mold is going to have a harder time acquiring the nutrients it needs for the spores to germinate and grow.


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PrinceShroom]
    #18869812 - 09/20/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrinceShroom said:
:popcorn:
I prefer a proper pasteurization





I always bring my substrate to field capacity and then pasteurize it.

If you use the bucket tek, buy a meat thermometer and check the temp to make sure it is actually being pasteurized. 

I'm not sure the bucket tek was invented to replace pasteurization, rather just another way to do it.  The problem people run in to with the bucket tek is that their boiling water cools off under the pasteurization temp, allowing trich or other molds to take hold of the substrate.

No, the intention of the bucket tek was to use the bucket as a pasteurization vessel.  Not in place of pasteurization.


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: TheApprentice]
    #18869982 - 09/20/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Here's the skinny. I stuck a meat thermometer through the side of a bucket, siliconed it, put a brick in and poured roughly a gallon of 180 degree water in.

An hour later without opening the lid, the temp was 164.

As this can create dry spots or spots that don't get expanded (and I think this is more to blame than partial sterilization), we have to open and stir like 30 mins in per the tek. The same bucket, brick, gallon of water: 180 going in, 30 mins later the temp is 169, open it to stir, close back and come back 30 mins later to a temp of 133. 

Under our goal.

I solved this (may not be applicable to small scale) issue by doing the following.

2 bricks in a single bucket. Poured 5 quarts 175 degree water in, quickly stirred and sealed. 25 minutes or so later came back to a temp of 167. Open and poured 3 remaining quarts of water at 165-170 into the hydrated and already pretty much fully expanded coir.

I let this mix sit for another 45 mins. At the end of this trial the temp held more steady at 160 when we were all done. Adjust your starting temperatures accordingly. Wet coir (partially hydrated) holds heat way better than just dumping your whole load in at once onto dry bricks.


Don't say I never contributed anything fukkers lol. Try it and lemme know how your trial goes.


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